With 158 (!!!) players filing for free agency, ESPN has selected the top 50 and their likely destinations for your Hot Stove League fun.

Just when fans thought their crappy year was over, the forecast is for the Mets to lose Alfonzo to LA and make their big acquisition -- Jimmy Haynes!?!

I think David Bell will stay with the Giants if they're smart. He's a much better option than Billy Mueller. Lofton I think will go somewhere else than SF. Jeff Kent will probably stay in SF.

Well, it looks like the cheap Phillies are finally opening up their checkbook. They have made offers to Thome, Glavine and Bell. Let's see if any of them bite

From today's Phila. Daily News...

Phils might be moving closer to landing Thome

The latest:

Tom Glavine to make counteroffers to Mets and Phils -- he wants a possible 4th year in case he's close to 300 wins. He doesn't want to be at 290 or so and be looking for a new team. It doesn't seem like the Braves are in it at this point.

Jim Thome wants a final offer from the Indians by Monday -- his wife is pregnant and due around Christmas and he wants to get things settled sooner.

David Bell still talking to Giants -- he and his wife made a visit to Philly and ended up staying three nights, but they left without making a deal.

I'm having a Chris Berman moment...how does David "Liberty" Bell sound??

Bell signs with Phils for $17 million over 4 years

God, I am so pissed that the Giants let David Bell get away.

Next thing you know, Jeff Kent goes somewhere else (on his motorcycle of course ) and the rest is history.

There are absolutely no rumblings in the SF press about free agents being considered or trade prospects, except for some very suspect rumors.

According to that ESPN free agent list, Pudge Rodriguez most likely would end up with the Cubs. I'm still trying to figure out if that's a good thing or a bad thing. He can't be any worse than Todd Hundley. Can he?

[quote]Originally posted by cubsfan1982:
According to that ESPN free agent list, Pudge Rodriguez most likely would end up with the Cubs. I'm still trying to figure out if that's a good thing or a bad thing. He can't be any worse than Todd Hundley. Can he?

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It's a good thing for those 90-100 games a season that I-Rod's deteriorating body can now play at the physically-demanding catching position. Better have a good backup backstop.

from Joe in Philly:

I'm having a Chris Berman moment...how does David "Liberty" Bell sound?

I hate to admit it, but I had the same thought when I heard he was heading to the Phillies. Weren't he and Bowa in Seattle at the same time? If they were, I'm assuming they got along better than, say, Bowa & Rolen...

~Adam

They were both in Seattle...a quote from this article...

[quote] Specifically, it seems, Bell wanted to play for Larry Bowa. They became close when the current Phillies manager was third-base coach for the Mariners in 2000 and Bell was Seattle's third baseman.

Bell signed a 1-year, $3.5 million deal with the Giants before last season, saying that he took less than what he could have made elsewhere because he wanted to play for Dusty Baker. But Baker is gone now, having left to take over the Chicago Cubs, replaced in San Francisco by Felipe Alou.

"I really like Larry and I'm very much looking forward to playing for him," Bell said. "Knowing Larry was a factor, but I'm not saying I didn't want to play for Felipe Alou."

A year ago at this time, third baseman Scott Rolen was anxious to leave the Phillies, in part because of a lack of rapport with Bowa.

Now the new third baseman will sign on the dotted line because Bowa is the manager for whom he wants to play.

Imagine that.

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Cute picture on the back page as well--look quickly because this will be gone tomorrow.

Jim Thome supposedly wanted to make his decision before Thanksgiving. But after the Indians made their "final offer" on Monday and the Phillies responded by increasing their offer, Thome's agent went back to Cleveland and asked them to improve on their offer again. Now they say there will be no decision until after the weekend.

This made me wonder how serious Thome is about leaving Cleveland and whether he's perhaps just using the Phils' interest to wring every possible dollar out of the Indians.

On the other hand, an article I read on Wednesday said that he feels disrespected because the Indians' initial offer was comparable to what Jeromy Burnitz is being paid. And supposedly the Indians made some adjustments in their "final" offer but those adjustments didn't result in any additional guaranteed money.

I thought the strike settlement was suposed to even out the financials of the teams - I see the same teams listed over and over on that big list as getting these guys...

[quote]Originally posted by osufan:
I thought the strike settlement was suposed to even out the financials of the teams - I see the same teams listed over and over on that big list as getting these guys...

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It's still the same few teams (with the Phillies newly added) chasing the free agents. But the positive benefit of the strike settlement is showing up on the trade front. No teams (other than ones suffering a Jeffrey Loria taint) are holding fire sales.

The Twins and A's are stable. The Pirates appear to be holding together their young core. Same with the Reds; they were even adding talent late last season. There's not much talk that the Blue Jays can't afford their exciting young nucleus (the fact that the B-Jays want to unload Carlos Delgado is sensible economics for any organization - the man isn't worth $17 million per season to any club).

These are the teams with a core of exciting young players, who will be getting progressively more expensive to keep. Usually, this time of year, the news is dominated with talk about these teams having to unload all their good young players to the Yankees, or Red Sox, or Mets, because the team can't afford to keep its stars with impending salary arbitration. Maybe there will be a little of that to come, but that talk has been greatly reduced.

Except for the special cases of the Loria-owned Marlins and the baseball-owned Expos (who still suffer Loria's residual taint).

Thome Reportedly Chooses Phils

It's also being reported on the Phila. Inquirer website. He has to pass a physical and then they'll make it official.

Is this what it's like to be the Yankees? I could get used to this...

Cubs Sign Mike Remlinger

What's the sudden attraction for players to Philadelphia? Bell, Thome and possibly Glavine. Have the Phillies always been such big players in the free agent market or is there some new regime in charge?

Well, two down one to go. Maybe the Phils will end up with a clean sweep in the bidding wars.

I believe the Phils have suddenly had a change of heart in signing these free agents is because they will open a new stadium in 2004. Attendance has been woeful over the past few years and they are probably trying to get as many season ticket holders on board next year as possible. This way they hope to build a large attenndance base for 2004.

I'll echo what Phillyrunner said. The Phils have not been known as big spenders, in the city they have a reputation as being cheap. That is one of many reasons Scott Rolen didn't want to re-sign to stay here.

Maybe they're running scared, they realize it takes more than a new ballpark to fill a new ballpark. Attendance has been so dismal, even if the Phils do great this year, increased attendance usually lags at least a year or so behind.

It will be interesting to see what these free agent signings do to season ticket sales this year. Opening day should be very exciting!

[quote]Originally posted by cubsfan1982:
Thome Reportedly Chooses Phils

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Its OFFICIAL - There is no joy in Mudville -Mighty Thome has walked out!

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: copman ]

On paper this certainly makes the Phillies a much-improved team, even more so if they sign Glavine. Of course, during the era of free agency there've been many teams that went on spending sprees, improved on paper, but went backwards in the standings, so we'll see what the season actually brings.

On another note, it's astounding to see how far the Indians have fallen in such a short time.

Thome: "It's not about the money ! I love Cleveland, my wife is from there, I'll never leave Cleveland"

p.s. What did my momma say...don't believe everything you hear ?

When somebody says "It's not about the money" they're usually not being totally honest. Money usually plays a part, and surely did with Jim Thome. But in this case there's also the factor of winning potential. If Thome stayed with Cleveland he'd be doomed to a few years of rebuilding. They've let other players go or traded them (such as Bartolo Colon). And the money Cleveland was willing to spend on Thome would've taken a bite out of what they would spend on other players.

[quote]Attendance has been so dismal, even if the Phils do great this year, increased attendance usually lags at least a year or so behind.

It will be interesting to see what these free agent signings do to season ticket sales this year.

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According to the Phila. Inquirer: at this time last year, even after the 2001 success, the Phils sold about 15 season ticket plans per day for 2002. Up until yesterday they were already averaging about 40 per day for 2003. They sold 240 yesterday, most of that coming in the afternoon after the Thome news broke. And I'll be joining them shortly.

Phillies are definately going to be good in 2003. I'll be seeing them at Shea Stadium next July, and at home against the Cubs, so I can't wait to see how they do.

Ironically, I heard that the Mets have joined the ranks of the teams that charge extra for certain games against certain teams (such as the Subway Series with the Yankees). The Phillies were put in their "value price" category. I guess it's an even better value now.

By the way, it's now official. The press conference is at 4:30 today.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
Ironically, I heard that the Mets have joined the ranks of the teams that charge extra for certain games against certain teams (such as the Subway Series with the Yankees). The Phillies were put in their "value price" category. I guess it's an even better value now.

By the way, it's now official. The press conference is at 4:30 today.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

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I wonder if that means I'm lucky or the Mets are just stupid?

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: cubsfan1982 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Munson Man:
Of course, during the era of free agency there've been many teams that went on spending sprees, improved on paper, but went backwards in the standings, so we'll see what the season actually brings.
[QUOTE]

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A certain MLB team (allegedly still competing at the major league level anyway after finishing the 2002 season at 4-32 -- yikes ) would aptly fit that description....of course, now Peter Angelos is far too concerned about keeping a team out of DC/NoVa that he is intentionally diluting the talent on the O's (and keeping their payroll at less than half of what it was 5 years ago) to attempt to show Selig and his cronies in ownership that the Baltimore/DC area (as if they're the same market ) can't support two clubs....the fan base definitely can as long as the ownership would not drive out all the knowledgeable "baseball men" (i.e., Pat Gillick, Davey Johnson, Larry Lucchino, Doug Melvin, to name but a few) that have passed through "charm city".

Oh well, not trying to get this thread too far off topic....I'm glad to see the Phillies finally make a REAL concerted effort to expand the payroll and field a competitive team....as awful as the Vet is (only one more year though at that cement monstrosity) at least it's less than a two hour drive from here in Maryland to see a REAL major league club play....that is, until the Expos move to DC in time for the 2004 season, of course.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: gamecock ]

Well, the SF Giants just signed free agent outfielder Marquis Grissom to a 2-year deal at $4.5 million. He had a .277 average 17 homers and 60 RBI's with 111 games for the Dodgers.

He's 36 years old, which just goes to show Sabean's fascination with veteran players that probably won't be with the team for very long. Grissom also has a close relationship with the Giants new coach Felipe Alou.

The Giants have until 9pm tonight to re-sign Jeff Kent or give him arbitration. If they don't cut a deal today, we all think Jeff's no longer a Giant. This would be a HUGE mistake.

The Mariners have re-signed pitcher Jamie Moyer. The Phils wanted him after losing out on the Glavine sweepstakes. They're also looking at Chuck Finley and former Phil Paul Byrd, as well as trying to pry Bartolo Colon from the Expos.

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
The Mariners have re-signed pitcher Jamie Moyer. The Phils wanted him after losing out on the Glavine sweepstakes. They're also looking at Chuck Finley and former Phil Paul Byrd, as well as trying to pry Bartolo Colon from the Expos.[/QB]

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Smart move by the Mariners (not surprising since Pat Gillick is their GM) to re-sign Moyer, who like many "non-power" pitchers shows every sign that he will still be able to pitch effectively for at least a couple more seasons despite turning 40 last month....if the M's somehow manage to get Paul Byrd AND Bartolo Colon (I'm not so sure about Finley's value though) to go along with their existing starting rotation of Garcia, Moyer, Pineiro and Halama plus their potent lineup then you can start printing the 2003 World Series tickets for Safeco Field already....I seriously doubt they will be able to acquire BOTH Byrd and Colon (and I'm still hoping the Expos manage to keep Colon, Vazquez, Armas, Vidro, and Guerrero thanks to the additional revenue that will be generated from the 22 games in San Juan) -- nothing like some "hot stove" baseball talk in freezing early December (the wind chill is in single digits here now....brrrr) to get me excited for spring!

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: gamecock ]

Alright! Giants offered Jeff Kent arbitration, so it's still alive that he'll stay with the Giants.

But, Sanders, Lofton, Dunston, Mueller and Goodwin are history. Gee, smart move Sabean!

They also signed Ray Durham. Boy, it's going to be a totally different team next year, which I actually look forward to.

I am very sad and upset tonight as my favorite Texas Ranger and overall baseball player in modern baseball is no longer a Ranger. That player is Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez. I cannot believe that Rangers management is willing to cut ties with a player who was brought in when he was just a teenager and played his heart and soul out for the same team since. He has played 12 years with the Rangers, voted as a starter in the All-Star game and winning Gold Gloves in all but one season, of those 12 years. He has meant more to the Rangers organization than any other player in their history. When healthy, he is hands down, the best catcher in baseball, period. Well, suffice it to say, he will make either the Cubs, Orioles,(only potential suitors, thus far), or some other team much better, once he signs. I just wish he could have finished his career with the Rangers! Good Luck, Pudge

SmoothRon, when I lived in Texas, Pudge was always my favorite baseball player. But after so many years in the debilitating position of catcher, he's become a liability. Too many years up and down on your knees really starts to affect a players performance. (No comments from the queens gallery!)

I hate to see him depart from the Rangers, and I also seriously doubt that too many other teams are going to be interested unless they are just totally desperate for someone in the catching position.

Too bad the Rangers didn't have the foresight that the Astros did when they had a great catcher, Craig Biggio! They saw the great overall talent in his playing and figured that if he remained in the catching position, he would be toast in no time. So they trained him at 2nd base - and he's still playing! No, the Rangers kept Pudge at catching. Granted, Pudge is awesome at the position, no one dares try and steal a base with Pudge's quick arm.

I wish him the best of luck!

[quote]Too bad the Rangers didn't have the foresight that the Astros did when they had a great catcher, Craig Biggio! They saw the great overall talent in his playing and figured that if he remained in the catching position, he would be toast in no time. So they trained him at 2nd base - and he's still playing!

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For years when Mike Piazza was a Dodger, they wanted to move him to first base to save his legs (and, to be honest, get a better defensive catcher in there) but it never happened. One reason was that they had Karros at 1B already and he was still productive then. It was rumored that Piazza wanted to stay at catcher so he could set all the catcher hitting records but I don't know if I quite believe that.

Pudge is about 2 years too late in terms of entering the free-agent market. There's no real free agent market any more and this time, I don't think it's collusion by the owners. I think it's the realization that shrewd trades and building from within (see: Angels) might be the way to go.

Editorial cartoon in the Cleveland paper:

a little boy crying out " Say it isn't so Jimmy !"

to a car with Thome driving, with Penna plates, with bumper sticker reading: "My hearts in Cleveland, but my bank is in Philadelphia"

[quote]Originally posted by osufan:
Editorial cartoon in the Cleveland paper:
a little boy crying out " Say it isn't so Jimmy !"
to a car with Thome driving, with Penna plates, with bumper sticker reading: "My hearts in Cleveland, but my bank is in Philadelphia"

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Hey. My heart's here home in Las Vegas, but for $30 million more than anywhere else is offering me, I'd work six months a year in Detroit, Buffalo, or even the ultimate hell-hole, Billings, Montana.

[quote]Originally posted by Charlie in the Trees:
or even the ultimate hell-hole, Billings, Montana.[/QB]

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What? -- no reply from MSUBobcat yet to your no so subtle shot at Montana, CITT?!....haven't you seen the movie "A River Runs Through It" that extolls the virtues of idyllic Montana?....keep in mind, these comments are coming from an east coast "city boy" too.

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: gamecock ]

[quote]Originally posted by Charlie in the Trees:
...the ultimate hell-hole, Billings, Montana.

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Say what? I've been to Billings, and I can think of plenty of worse places than that. I have spent a few pleasant evenings watching the Billings Mustangs play in quite a nice stadium. Do elaborate.

[quote]Originally posted by gamecock:
What? -- no reply from MSUBobcat yet to your no so subtle shot at Montana, CITT?!....haven't you seen the movie "A River Runs Through It" that extolls the virtues of idyllic Montana?....keep in mind, these comments are coming from an east coast "city boy" too.

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Most of the inappropriately named "Montana" is not mountainous.* The eastern half (or two-thirds, actually) of the Big Sky State is unrelenting High Plains ... flat, monotonous, windy and ugly. It's what everyone who's never been to the Midwest thinks Nebraska or Kansas (which are actually quite beautiful) look like.

Billings is not in the beautiful, mountainous "River Runs Through It" (by the way: what a GODawful movie that was) Western third of Montana. It's in the heart of the High Plains.

Billings "charm" is that -- to that flat, windy, ugly and monotonous expanse -- it adds slipshod rundown architecture and, as a special bonus here, mean surly people. It is worthy of the designation "hell hole," all natural variety (as opposed to the separate and distinct "urban decay" category of hell-holishness).

____________________
* Although, for an inappropriately named state, you can't do better than my homeland, Nevada. I bake in 115-degree heat for three or four months of the year in a state whose name translates as "snow-clad."

In a less-than-banner year for offensive performance at 3B, Edgardo Alfonzo nevertheless led the position in Equivalent Average (OK, it's a "sabermetric" stat, but trust me, it means he had a fine year). So the Mets let their only good 2002 bat besides Piazza walk -- to Oakland? -- and rely on an unproven Japanese star (or Joe Randa or Fernando Tatis!?) to fill the hole? Very little outrage in the New York media, who are too dazzled by the Glavine signing. Anyone wanna buy a Fonzie Mets shirt cheap?

Heartbreak. My beloved Blue Jay Chris Carpenter has signed with the Cards.

Giants just signed Edgardo Alfonso for the third base position hole they left (sadly, he was so hot) by releasing David Bell. Good move! Now they just need to conclude the Jeff Kent saga, and who knows where that's going.

I am saddened to see Edgardo Alfonzo go. He was the one and only homegrown star on this Mets team. All the Mets are now is one big corporate franchise. Oh well, maybe Jose Reyes will become a homegrown star.

While I don't like Alfonzo's departure, I think the "homegrown star" romanticism is mostly sentimental hogwash. Billy Beane is clearly the most admired young baseball mind in the game, and he's trading some of his homegrown stars (or letting them leave as free agents) when they get too expensive. Baseball history is full of teams that were built partly through smart trades (and luck, of course).

The SF Giants just traded RHP Russ Ortiz for LHP Damian Moss from the Braves plus a minor leaguer. Damian had a great rookie season this past year with the Braves and adds a left-handed starting pitcher option for the Giants.

I hate to see Russ go, he was a dependable pitcher. But overall, I think this trade was a great decision. Sabean sure has been productive with his trades over the last 5 days.

Last question is, when are they going to tell us that Jeff Kent is history?

[quote]Originally posted by billsf:
The SF Giants just traded RHP Russ Ortiz for LHP Damian Moss from the Braves plus a minor leaguer. Damian had a great rookie season this past year with the Braves and adds a left-handed starting pitcher option for the Giants.[/QB]

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This trade makes no sense. I thought they were shoping Ortiz for more (and younger) offense. During their way-too-long run, the Braves have been intelligent about evaluating pitching. I'm thinking that they're thinking that Damian Moss was a one-season flash.

[quote]Last question is, when are they going to tell us that Jeff Kent is history?

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When he signs a free agent contract with another team.

[ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

Well, CITT, it does make a lot of sense given that Rus Ortiz was making $4.7 million and Moss is making around $300,000. Frees up a lot of money to either help re-sign Jeff Kent or look at some other younger players, even if they have to substantially increase Moss' pay at arbitration time.

Now if we can just get rid of Livan Hernandez, Marvin Benard and JT Snow........

[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: billsf ]

Yanks (Big Surprise) Sign Cuban Ace Contreras

I hope he's a BUST!!!