All due respect to The Oz... but since he's clearly one of the ten best *ever* at his position, why didn't the same hold true for Gary Carter?


Carter misses hall by 11 votes


And I think the writers do a fairly good job with the voting (certainly better than the Veterans Committee) -- tho I would've also listed Bert Blyleven and Rich Gossage.

HEY HEY HEY HEYYYYY!
No dissing the Wizard simply because whiney, unlikeable Gary Carter got ripped off. Ozzie Smith is quite simply the greatest shortstop ever (with the POSSIBLE but unconceded exception of Honus Wagner).
Gary Carter is not, under anyone's measure of the man, the greatest catcher ever. That probably would be Johnny Bench, maybe Yogi Berra. Carter was the greatest catcher in baseball upon the decline and retirement of said Mr. Bench. He is, despite his harmless personality flaws, a true Hall of Famer. He should've gotten in.
And so should have JACK MORRIS. He pitched the most exciting World Series game of my lifetime: Game Seven, 1991, Twins over the Braves (before the Braves became insufferable), 1-0, 10 innings of shut-out ball. That game alone makes him Hall of Fame worthy. Add in all those great years with the Tigers (esp. 1984) and it is incredible that Jack Morris got overlooked too.

CITT, I meant no disrespect to Smith. I don't know how you can definitively say he ranks 2nd across all eras, but I agree he was great, and would've voted for him...

However, as Jayson Stark writes in his ESPN column, against his contemporary Carlton Fisk, Carter had every edge but longevity. He has to be in, and he's very comparable to Bench (who had a rather short catching career) and not too far from Berra. (I never liked Carter's personality, but that's irrelevant.)

Jack Morris was a fine pitcher, but I'd differ with you and Stark. Blyleven pitched better for longer, just with lesser teams. And "one game," even a great Game 7, does not make a HOFer, or Johnny Podres would be in.

Given the comparison of Carter's stats and those of othe HOF catchers, he undoubtedly deserves to be in. I hate these guys who vote on personality. And while Carter was pretty cocky, he was far from the most offensive player in that department! Did he at least come closer than last year. If not, it's gonna be tough for him down the line.

Blyleven is something like 5th all-time in K's, but unfortunately spent most of his career with mediocre Twins and Pirates teams, so his W-L is only so-so. But he still collected enough wins to get in.

Yeah, I agree that Gary Carter should be in the Hall. His stats compare very favorably with Carlton Fisk, despite the fact that he had a shorter career. He just missed this year, but I'm afraid he'll miss by a wider margin next year. With Eddie Murray and Ryne Sandberg becoming eligible for the first time, I would expect them to siphon more votes away from Carter - although Murray will have personality issues of his own to overcome.

500 HRs is still automatic for the writers. Murray walks in.

I couldn't resist posting this Jack Morris demystification by Baseball Prospectus for CITT, who I still respect even tho he's back to disagreeing with me regularly ...


The Legend of Jack Morris

Interesting article, Bill W. I still think JACK MORRIS should get in. Jack Morris was a winner for more reasons than run support. Run support can explain a flashy won-lost record for a year or two (see Clemens, Roger: 2001), but a whole career? Morris pitched well enough to win. Consistently. Jack Morris, year in year out, pitched as well as he needed to. He's a Hall of Famer.

One thing I learned from that article is that the Hall of Fame credentials of CATFISH HUNTER were even worse than I imagined. I guess it was Yankee mystique that carried him in.

As for EDDIE MURRAY, he's the true Hall of Famer of the '83 Orioles. That team was his team. He's a sure-thing first ballot winner, and not just because of the homers.

But as for RYNE SANDBERG, I don't know. He may get in because of the whole "loveable loser Cubs" thing. But was he good enough for long enough? He was never a clutch post-season player, like the similarly-credentialed KIRBY PUCKETT. He only had one legitimate MVP caliber season, 1984. He only had one season with 40 HR's and only one other when he reached 30. Only two seasons of triple-digit RBI. And he played in an EXTREME hitter's park. I don't see a Hall of Famer, but then again, during Sandberg's best years, I was punching Tommy Herr on my All Star ballots.

Jim Rice has stats that compare favorably to Orlando Cepeda and Billy Williams, yet he's not in. And Rice was an AL MVP. He would have been so twice had he not played on the same team as Freddie Lynn. He probably won't make it, though if he'd been able to hang around a few more seasons, instead of getting dissed by the lousy Red Sucks, he might have gotten 20 homers, passed 400, and gotten into the Hall.

Murray is a cinch. Sandberg was one of the best second basemen of his era. He also was beloved by the sports writers. I can see him getting in.

Morris probably deserves to be admitted--he won 254 games, many of them the big ones, and he anchored the staff of the Tigers for years. Unfortunately for him, he wasn't a leader in a lot of categories, he only won 20 games 3 times, and he never won a Cy Young award. Jim Palmer and Bob Gibson actually have comparable stats in some ways, though Palmer's ERA is lower and he won 20 games many times--spectacularly so; and Gibson was the dominant NL pitcher after Sandy Koufax, with that extraordinary 1968 season, two Cy Youngs and a high strike out total. (Palmer also never surrendered a grand slam!) What sets Catfish Hunter apart is his five straight 20 win seasons, and his having played for two World Series championship teams (Oakland and the Yankees) during his best years. Morris may yet make it, though it's going to be tight.

I thank God I actually got to see Ozzie smith play! That 1982 season was perhaps my favorite by the Cardinals, and Ozzie was my favorite player. John Tudor, one of the Cardinals' best pitchers, won't enter the Hall, but he produced some excellent seasons in the 1980s. If only they'd won in 1985 and 1987....

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Every year produces one or two situations where people whine about someone who "deserves" to be in, but didn't make the cut.
And then in one or two more votes, a good many of them actually do. So, if I'm not mistake, Carter might still have a couple more cracks at getting in.
Not too sure about Morris. I don't know how long he's been up for selection.
IMHO, I think Morris more deserving than Carter.

Ach! Even most fans who don't like Carter concede he's one of the ten best ever at his position (if you look at the numbers, it's almost literally impossible to deny). Even if you think Morris is a HOFer, he's clearly not one of the ten best pitchers.

As far as Sandberg goes, his power was excellent for a 2B, and I don't call 2 postseason series a big enough reason to deny him (Willie Mays never did especially well in the WS, after all). How can Nellie Fox -- or Mazeroski, who wasn't half the offensive player -- be in, and Ryno out?

The whining that the HOF has been 'diluted' is coming from pre-expansion players. The fact is there aren't enough '60s and '70s players, proportionally, being elected. Hopefully the next Veterans ballot in 2003 will put Ron Santo in.