A couple of points for your consideration about one-time genius Dusty Baker.

(1) How much of a distraction in Games Six and Seven was it for Dusty Baker to have to be a babysitter?

Managing a major league team in a playoff situation requires total, exhausting concentration. When you've put your three-year old son in a position where he very likely could get run over and pancaked by 200+ pound muscular men running full speed, wouldn't that be a bit distracting? I'm not a father ... but I'm sure there are at least few men here who have reproduced ... but isn't there some sort of protective paternal instinct that would have kicked in and caused the father of a hyperkinetic three-year old to pay some attention to his child's safety. And if Dusty's worried about the kid, is he noticing the little things, like the first clue that it's time to lift a pitcher, or when to put on the hit-and-run, or whatever? Is he noticing this as well as he would had he been devoting his full concentration?

All those kids in the Giants dugout for Games Six and Seven was a stupid stupid decision (or lack of control). It may not have cost the Giants the Series, but it couldn't have helped. First of all, a three-year old has no business being expected to go onto a baseball field during a game for any purpose whatsoever. Dusty's an idiot if he thinks a three-year old can handle that and I seriously question his judgment making such a determination.

Now, Barry Bonds's kid: no problem. He's worked as a bat boy for the last couple of seasons. He's proven (prior to the Series) that he can act appropriately in the dugout and on the field.

But Shawon Dunston's kid? Who the hell is Shawon Dunston that he gets to bring his kid into the dugout? Y'know, I'm sure J.T. Snow and Benito Santiago love their kids, too, but they have the common sense not to bring their kids into the dugout for World Series games.

(2) If Dusty's leaving the Giants, the Cubs would be the only job that makes sense.

I think Dusty Baker is a very good manager. One of the best in the game. I'm not yet ready to elevate him to superstar status, on the same level as the all-time greats, Sparky Anderson, Whitey Herzog, and Tom Kelly.

But, he excels in the current Giant situation: a team of self-motivated veterans, with the biggest challenge being keeping the monster-sized egos of his two superstars from becoming a distraction. He is able to sell 23 guys on Bonds and Kent getting to play by a different set of rules. And what team has challenges similar to winning with the Giants? The Cubs!

They got one monster-sized ego in the person of Sammy Sosa that will present a challenge similar to what is needed to keep Bonds prickliness in check. It's a veteran team, that can't be allowed to become complacent playing in front of tolerant and undemanding fans (in a beautiful ballpark).

The Mets would have been a terrible fit for Dusty. The Brewers are hopeless. And Dusty still might stay in San Fran. But if he goes, the Cubs seem like the best bet for him to replicate the success that he had in the City by the Bay.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

I think you're being terribly harsh - and insensitive. If the Giants made it the threshold of a championship WITH all those kids there, did their presence essentially cost the Giants the Series? Absolutely not.

You're totally out of line implying that Dusty is acting irresponsibly by letting his toddler son be a bat-boy. Granted, there are inherent dangers for those youngsters, as we saw in Game 5. But I think Dusty's policy of welcoming the players' kids into the dugout is a refreshing change. In fact, I read recently in the SF Chronicle that his players' kids are always welcome at Pac-Bell for practice and what-not. As a father, Dusty realizes that the season can be long & tedious, especially when the players are separated from their families. If I were a major leaguer and father, I think seeing my little boy's bright, smiling face there in the dugout would be a welcome sight - an inspiration. One that I would probably help me play better ball.

I don't claim to know Dusty on a personal level, but to my mind, he's a great manager and a great father.

Dusty is clearly a great father. That's a more important job, IMHO.

[quote]Originally posted by jordan:
I think you're being terribly harsh - and insensitive. If the Giants made it the threshold of a championship WITH all those kids there, did their presence essentially cost the Giants the Series? Absolutely not.

You're totally out of line implying that Dusty is acting irresponsibly by letting his toddler son be a bat-boy.

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I couldn't agree more with you, Jordan. I couldn't be less surprised by CITT's comments though. Check the World Series thread, the Brass Balls article and resulting threads. While I enjoy his non-baseball posts, Charlie just has some irrational and illogical Giants-phobia.

I've loved seeing the kids in the dugout these past years. I hope that the kids are allowed to stay in the dugout. Even more so, I hope that Dusty stays in SF's dugout.

He is not the first to do this, Omar Visquel has had his son do the same thing at the Safe. I would like to see Dusty in Seattle, but I dont think the M's will match a $4 million a year contract. But I think it is an a lot more attractive situation to come to than Chicago. Probably the most attractive coach/manager position open and available in all sports right now. Specially after the filling of the void in Left Field.

Trees, you talk a lot of smack. Baker wouldn't be the first parent to make an error in judgement. Hell, this is something he probably wanted his boys to be a part of. The situation worked out fine, it ended as quick as it began and no one got hurt. Do you have kids of your own? Nieces, nephews and godchildren don't count. If you don't have kids, don't stand there and wag your finger. Maybe, you woudn't have let it happen but I'm sure Baker won't do it again. As far as his genius status goes he did a damn good job with what little pitching he had. So I think that at least makes him smart and resourceful enough to get to the world series. The Angels didn't have much better in the way of pitching either. It was a hitters series and The Angels hit their way to a win.

Having a three-year old in that situation is stupid and irresponsible. Any kid younger than his teens is not going to be able to respond to a foul ball quickly enough and could end up injured or dead.

It's great that you love your kids -- hell, I wish my dad had been a MLB coach or player too -- would have loved to have been there. My dad was just a high school football coach and I was always begging to be on the sidelines. But he waited until I was old enough to be able to respond quickly enough to get out of the way.

That said, I just think that's bad parenting, not bad managing. As a Cubs fan, I'd love to see him here. But knowing Cubs management and how they seem to never make even the most obvious of right choices, I'm not holding my breath.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: MCMikeNamara ]

[quote]Originally posted by SFHoya:
Charlie just has some irrational and illogical Giants-phobia.

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No Giants-phobia here. I love J.T. Snow (wish he would hit in the regular season like he did in the playoffs) and Rich Aurilia. Reggie Sanders is very easy on the eyes, too. I think, in general, Dusty Baker is a fine manager. The best? No. But Dusty could put that three year old kid in the starting line-up and I'd still he think he was a better manager than Tony Muser or Joe Kerrigan.

I will confess to Barry Bonds-a-phobia, comprised of equal parts rational and irrational. But still, much as I personally dislike Bonds, I had no problem with his kid in the dugout, who was old enough and mature enough to handle the situation.

And my Jeff Kent-a-phobia is wholly rational. Kent will do much worse next season if he's playing anywhere else.

And another thing about this Giants-phobia allegation ...

I did pick the Giants to win the World Series. Granted, it was done in a back-handed sort of way. But my pick of the Giants to knock off the Braves in the first round was a clean, forehand shot.

Finally, the best piece of evidence that I am NOT an inveterate Giants-hater:

I think that Tommy Lasorda is an evil buffoon from Hell.

[quote]Y'know, I'm sure J.T. Snow and Benito Santiago love their kids, too, but they have the common sense not to bring their kids into the dugout for World Series games.

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Actually, J.T.'s son Shane was also a batboy.

If the kids aren't serving as batboys they aren't needed in the dugout during a game. Let them on the field before or after the game to be with their fathers. They should be in the stands during the game. Should we let wives and girlfriends (and boyfriends, someday) in the dugout as well?

And a three-year-old should not EVER be a batboy. Imagine if Snow wasn't alert enough to move Baker's kid out of the way--David Bell might have bowled him over, or hurt himself trying to avoid the kid. Or if the throw to the plate got past the catcher, the catcher might have turned around abruptly and had the kid in front of him, and perhaps in the heat of the moment, might have pushed or thrown the kid violently out of the way to pursue the ball. Imagine the scene then!

A columnist in the Phila. Daily News wrote about Lou Piniella and Art Howe, and added this at the end:

[quote]There is still an empty chair in this game of High Roller Free Agent Manager reserved for Dusty Baker.

It appears that when the music stops, the genius of McCovey Cove will take a seat in the Mariners' dugout. Batboys R Us is poised to move north.

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[quote]Originally posted by dwb56:
Actually, J.T.'s son Shane was also a batboy.

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Hmmm. Might explain Snow's .246 average with no power in the regular season.

I love kids. I've got none of my own. But I love' em. When someone brings YOUNG kids into my office, it's a distraction for me. They get bored easily. You watch out for their safety. You're just not as PRODUCTIVE with young kids around. I'm sorry, Giant fans, but that's reality.

When Mark McGwire got his kid a job as a batboy back in '98, that was wonderful. The kid was old enough. From what I've seen, Barry Bonds's son Nikolai (That's his name, right? What, did Bonds watch "Dr. Zhivago" one time too many?) is old enough to handle himself in the dugout and not be a distraction. But what'a appropriate for an older kid might be extremely inappropriate for a three year old (Dusty's kid) or a four year old (Snow's kid, I looked it up.)

Y'know, sometimes, when you're talking about kids, age discrimination is a good thing. If you want to win a World Series, I think you need total focus, every edge. It might be nice to win the "Father of the Year" award, but Dusty Baker is paid to win the World Series trophy, not to be an indulgent father.

Well, that's just common sense re: Lasorda. The Fat Man may have a great public face, but when the camera's off, he's rude, foul-mouthed and mean.

The Queer Nation group I belonged to went to Dodger Stadium on Camera Day to protest the way Lasorda handled the AIDS-related death of his son. On Camera Day, they'd rope off areas of the field and the players/manager would stand behind a rope. You could walk around and take pictures.

Mr. Dodger had totally denied his son was gay after his dying son showed up in the tabloids and generally acted like it was HE who was wronged. So, the QN gang found him and got on his case. His reply? "If you say anything like that again, I'll f**king punch your teeth down your throat". Charming. ass****. I never bought his schtick and as much as I can't stand the Dodgers, I'm glad he's not managing them anymore.

Re: Dusty and his kid. Why is it so hard to understand that due to Baker's policy, his kid almost got steamrolled by a 200 pound man running at full speed? Nobody's implying he burns his son with a hot poker or that he hangs him upside down in a dark closet for days on end. And only people that have kids are allowed to comment on it? Huh?

So, I guess we can now add Giants-Phobia to that list of teams that we're not allowed to criticize, lest fans tar you with that brush (see: Cornhusker and Irish fans).

Jim, I say go ahead and criticize, it's what we have a discussion board for. But, one would think Baker did use hot pokers and tit clamps on his kid with the way guys are carrying on about his parenting skills. Yeah, I think Lasorda was a jerk, but, a good coach.

No, he wasn't a good coach! That's the Big Lie. He might have been a good motivator and all that with his Bleeding Dodger Blue crap, but he was a poor game manager and he was notorious for destroying pitching careers through overuse and disregard for the limitations of the human body. Pretty odd for a former pitcher. And HE FELL ASLEEP on the bench one night. 'Nuf said. The media here loved him because he was a quote machine, but he's vastly overrated in my opinion and the Dodgers would be better off by getting his interfering ass out of the front office. Oh, wait. I WANT the Dodgers to suck. Nah, keep the stiff there!

It was strongly hinted by Glenn Burke that Lasorda was mainly responsible for shipping him out to Oakland because (admittedly, like everyone else in the organization) Lasorda suspected he was gay. What a way to treat the guy who invented the High Five!

Ok, Lasorda is evil.

Well, the M's are interviewing Dodger bench coach (and former Cub manager, right?) Jim Riggleman today for their vacant job. It might just be a formality as a prelude to hiring Baker, or.....

Okay... If it will help any...

I volunteer to be Jeff Kent's , J.T. Snow's, Rich Aurilia's, Benito Santiago's, very own batboy


The Giant's wouldn't even have to pay me.

Ok, maybe a bat or two.... oh!oh!


Re:

Kids in the Dugouts:

I love kids. However, I just don't think having kids run around the dugout is appropriate or safe.
If the little tyke is a batboy/girl and can perform the duties of the position, fine. But, to have a little one run around the dugout doesn't sound smart. The very least is the safety issue. But is it a good ideal to have small kids around a bunch of macho baseball jocks who are can be at times quiet intense mentally and phsyically, verbally resque, and down right dirty and nasty.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: satxbuddy1 ]

It's batboy not bath boy

Liked seeing the kids, but not the Baker tyke at homeplate. That was stupid. Very stupid.

Dusty's managing wasn't so bad, except that he should NOT have started Liván Hernandez in Game 7. I'm sorry, but find another option. Hernandez may have been sharp in 1997 or whenever it was, but he has gotten sloppier every year and is NOT the pitcher I'd turn to in such a pivotal contest. I mean, what is it with this guy? He obviously has real talent, and could potentially win 18 games a year, but he just appears to zone out and make really bad pitches as if a game is just about standing in there long enough to collect a paycheck, which is why he led the league in losses this year. He has none of his brother El Duque's fire.

Overall, San Francisco's pitching let them down. Had San Francisco had ONE pitcher to hold Anaheim's fusillade even moderately quiet, they could have won. But there were just too many fat and bad pitches, lost leads, etc. I think Baker's too laid back for Chicago. It'd eat him alive.