I am just a little bit more optimistic after reading the following story from my morning Spokesman-Review:

Any hope of saving the National Hockey League season hinges on whether the next proposal by the players association stirs serious negotiating.

When NHL officials and union leaders return to the bargaining table today, it will mark their first talks since Sept. 9.

NHLPA invited the league back to the table, and promised to be armed with a new proposal.

"We are looking forward to the meeting and are very confident that our proposal will provide a basis to end the owners' lockout and resume NHL hockey with a new CBA that can work for both players and owners," said Vancouver forward Trevor Linden, the NHLPA president, said in a statement Wednesday.

Hockey fans, please cross your fingers, and toes!!! wink

[ December 09, 2004, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

It doesn't make me any more optimistic, other than the fact that they're actually meeting. But the holiday season is the time for miracles, so... wink

Even if the NHL officials reject the offer the NHLPA put forward, it could be the proposal that breaks the silence. At least they're in the same room and talking. I'm so optimistic I'm going to hang out at Staples Center until they drop the puck.

~Adam

As Al Michaels said back in 1980, "do you believe in miracles"? Yes, I do!! Hey Adam, you can come up here for two puck drops as the Chiefs have 2 home games. Friday night is "Luau Night" where everyone is encouraged to wear their favourite hawaiian garb, and Saturday Night against Everett its "teddy bear toss" night.

[ December 09, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

There may be hope!

Hawaiian garb?!? Coincidentally, I'm sitting in a hotel room in Reno (business) wearing a Hawaiian shirt--my usual travel garb. Wish I could make all the way to Spokane.

Heard an interview with Joe's boyfriend, JR, who thinks it may be too late for this season. What I found most interesting was his statement that hockey can't afford to pay the "10 or 11 million" to players and that those players who make that kind of money should consider rolling back their salary. Additionally, his idea that hockey should roll back ticket prices--if there are games--to bring the "regular Joe" [a hidden message to his boyfriend?] back to the game and that he is not yet medically cleared to play. "The rest has been good for me; I'm hoping it prolongs my career."

~Adam

Don't be silly. He doesn't need to send hidden messages to me when I talk to him on the phone every night that he's out of town...

The union's proposal today included an immediate 24 percent cut in every current player contract, which would save NHL teams over $500 million in the next three years. (This would also have an effect on unsigned players who would be negotiating new deals based on the reduced contract levels.)

Bettman says they intend to make a counter-offer next week.

Just read more about this in my sports section this morning. I think there is still some hope for the possibility that things could go well. If you miss the NHL as bad as I do, you have to be optimistic.

As this article says, it's all up to Bettman. The players have made a huge move. If the owners don't come up with a reasonable counterproposal the season is doomed. And I imagine the owners would have trouble getting an impasse declared in order to try to start up with replacement players next year, because they would be the ones who would be seen as doing the stonewalling.

fwiw I just sent a letter to Commissioner Bettman through the NHL's website urging him to accept/pass the latest proposal offered by the NHLPA. Don't know that he will get it, but I sent an e-mail anyway, and I urge my fellow hockeyfan Outsporters in the U.S. and Canada to do the same.

At least the NHLPA proposal is being read and will be responded to next week--at least the two sides are back in negotiations. But, is there any reason not to think the owners may come back with "you offered a 24% rollback in salary. We won't impose a salary cap, but want an additional 10% rollback in salary?" I'm more impressed by the NHLPA offer on the luxury tax: 60% (!!) on teams that exceed the $45,000,000 limit.

~Adam

Marvin Miller, former head of the MLBPA calls the NHLPA offer \"irresponsible.\"

This is not very good. frown

Roenick: Bettman better accept offer

I agree with everything Roenick said. If Bettman doesn't accept this latest proposal, goodbye NHL. frown

I liked his comment on Marvin Miller: Would've been more fun if he worked "steroids" into the remark, though. wink

[ December 12, 2004, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Apparently Brett Hull was on Saturday Night Live this weekend and he appeared on the 'news' segment. He was asked, "As a Canadian, what do you think of legalizing gay marriage?" to which he replied, "That's what happens in Canada when you don't have hockey."

--------------

Anson Carter has apparently been receiving racist taunts while playing in Russia.



[ December 12, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

They should have asked him, "As a Canadian who still plays for Team USA..."

The idiot throwing the banana on the ice should have the crap beaten out of him.

Some of the players in that game are going to be in the Igor Larianov Farewell game -- I don't know if the telecast is live or not but here it's on Comcast's CN8 channel at 8 pm Monday, and I imagine it may be on other outlets elsewhere.

[ December 12, 2004, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Between Brett Hull and Joe's boyfriend, it seems that since the NHLPA proposal, players have ratcheted up their media appearances--and this morning, I heard an interview with the retired Wayne Gretzky, who said nothing of interest, just hoped "all sides work seriously to bring this stoppage to an end."

His biggest fear as the two sides meet again this week is that the owners will try to ignore the proposal put forth by the NHLPA last week, leading the union to withdraw the 24% rollback; in other words, if the NHL talks linkage between payroll and revenues or makes the luxury-tax rates harsher than in the players' proposal, the players would takes the 24% solution off the table.

~Adam

I found the complete quote from the Weekend Update segment on SNL:

Brett Hull: Well, that's what happens in Canada when there's no hockey. Guys have more time to hang out, talk about their feelings. Next thing you know they're in love with each other. I've got nothing against it, but I'd rather be playing hockey.

Amy Poehler: You heard it here first folks. Brett Hull would rather play hockey than marry a dude.

* * *

Asked whether the NHL can survive a year off from the lockout, Hull was optimistic...

Brett Hull: I think so. I mean with the basketball riot, the steroids in baseball, I think hockey is looking classier all the time.

This should come as no surprise: the NHL studied the NHLPA's proposal and countered by asking players who make more than $5,000,000 to take a 35% salary rollback (instead of the all-players 24% rollback offered by the players) and a club-by-club cap, called a "salary range" in the NHL proposal. The ball--or puck--is back in the players' court--or zone. Until this proposal, I really didn't want to believe that the NHL wanted to break the union; now, I think that's pretty much all Bettman wanted to do.

~Adam

I think it was clear that breaking the union was their intent.

The players, of course, rejected the owners' counter-proposal and no more talks are scheduled, so that's pretty much all she wrote.

These people have no shame, but they ought to. Not just part of a season, not just a post-season, but an entire season -- at least -- will be wiped out, but they don't care enough to actually negotiate, to compromise for the greater good of the league. Do they really think that, once they do return, people in cities where teams haven't existed for very long -- like Atlanta and Nashville -- are going to just flock back? Even in the big hockey markets, I daresay even in Canada, once the NHL returns they're going to have as many empty seats as they did before the lockout, if not more. The hardcore fans are seriously wounded, and the casual fans don't even care to begin with.

Hey guys and girls - I haven't been around for a while. Not much to post on, I guess.

If you'll allow me to not be brief, here's my $2 Canadian worth of pontification on the whole thing.

I believe that the owners have maybe exaggerated their dollar figures a little, however I also believe that their losses are substantial.

I believe that they have the right to expect a very nice return on their investment, otherwise why would they be doing it?

I don't think it is out of the question that an owner of a team should expect to pay a reasonable sum of money to his players and get a COMPETITIVE team out of the deal - and after he does that, he should still be able to make a modest profit of let's say $5M.

Right now there's not a lot of teams that can do that. And I know - everyone says that they need to be responsible for their budgets - but the pressure to hold onto your players is immense!

Let's use Vancouver as an example. If Markus Naslund were a free agent and refused the Canucks $6M offer and took an offer from Colorado for $7M then you can bet that GM would be run out of town! And if he looked at the reporters and said "But everyone said that we need to set a budget and STICK TO IT and that is exactly what I am doing, sticking to my budget. I would have loved to give an extra million to Naslund - but it's not in my budget" THERE WOULD BE MASS REVOLT IN VANCOUVER - RIOTING LIKE IN '94!

So a lot of times the GM's don't have a choice but to give into the demands due to needing to keep a hold on their players, please the fans and keep the team competitive.

That said - there are a lot of stupid stupid deals made by GMs. Yashin for $10M a year? Assinine!! Miroslav Satan for $5.25 Million? Come on now - he's a good player, but not better than Sergei Samsonov or Vinny Lecavalier.

I do believe that the PA's offer of a 24% rollback was a ploy to get the fans on their side. We're all supposed to be yelling: "Come on Gary! They caved - let them play!!!" But I think Mr. Bettman (aka The Count from Sesame Street) was correct today when he said that the unions KNOWS that the salaries would be back where they are in no time at all.

According to the numbers, and this is of course if you believe the numbers, then the 24% wage reduction is roughly taking the player costs to 54% of all hockey revenue. If the PA is happy with that, then why not agree to a cap that caps their wages at 54% of revenue from now on? They wouldn't do that because they know that when it comes down to contract negotiations - especially at the free agent level - they've got the GM's by the neck! The GM, in order to keep his job, has to ice a competitive team. Hopefully competitive enough to get a few playoff rounds to pay for what he is paying the players. If he doesn't sign that player and loses him and the team plays like crap, then he gets fired. He has no choice!

And the entry level stuff? Don't get me started! Those kids should be damn happy to make $800,000/yr. It'll take me more than a decade to make that much money! And if he doesn't sign, he sits out a year and goes back into the draft. RIDICULOUS! The team is now out what was most likely a high draft because they won't throw in easily achievable bonuses like "must play in 30 games" or "must score 10 goals". It's a joke!

The PA keeps talking about revenue sharing amongst the teams. Well here's a radical (and completely unrealistic) idea! How about instead - the owners take 54% of their revenue...no - let's go big - 60% of their revenue and put it in a pool, then let the NHLPA divvy it up amongst the players.

What it comes down to is that NOTHING will get done until the two sides can agree on how big the pie is and figure out how much should go to the players, how much to expenses and how much to the profit of the owner.

Vancouve has been pretty succesful the past few years. Even made a bit of money the last couple of years. But guess what - Nazzy's contract is up after next year. So is Jovo's. Bertuzzi already got his $7M (if they ever let him play again). Morrison, Cloutier, Ohlund - all within the next year or so. They will be EXPENSIVE to resign. It is impossible to see how they could keep this team together and stick to a budget. There's no more TV revenue coming in - no one watches in the US. They have maxed out their season ticket sales. They sell out every single game of the season. So now what? Do they raise the ticket prices again? I guess they could. Do they raise souvenir prices? How much will that bring in? Not much!

So what do they do? What they do is lose the players. Lose the entertaining team. maybe lose some season ticket holders that gripe "They can't hold onto their players - they'll never win!"

I know in most businesses and in life, you have to set a budget. But this isn't a normal business.

Okay - I'll relax. Everyone that is Pro-Player - please feel free to attack me now! wink

Welcome back tp. Missed you! Well after reading about the latest NHL meltdown, I have officially given up any hope of hockey this year, and that is a sad, sad statement. I am also feeling quite a bit of anger over the whole thing as well. Also, tp, how have the crowds been for the Giants up there. Any ideas?

[ December 15, 2004, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

And no new talks are scheduled. This is from LA King Trent Klatt:

"I would tell players to go to Europe. I would tell players to go back to school or take up entrepreneurial goals. If there's a compromise between a salary cap and a luxury tax, right now I don't know where it is."

Mighty Duck Steve Ruchin thinks Bettman will try to impose labor conditons for next season--if there is a next season--all complicated by varius labor laws in Canada and the US.

~Adam

Hey Puckman! The Giants have been doing quite well. I think they are averaging between 7000-8000 a game, including one game that was over 12000 against Kamloops. They were honoring all the old Canuck goalies. The stadium they play in is the stadium the Canucks used to play on so they decided to salute all the old goalies. Great atmosphere.

We even went to a game with BPT306 when he was in town. He also came to watch our gay team (www.thecuttingedges.com). Hey Anton - we're on a 6 game undefeated streak since you were here. You must have been good luck!

Wow, thats great attendance tp. I am going to check out your website.

Nice wesbite tp!! You have got some lookers on your team. So which one is you??? Enquiring minds demand to know. wink

puckman, tphutch is #17. And the guys are much better looking in person! So when are the Edges going to sign up that hot fan (not me of course ) and send out their beefcake calendar?? :cool:

And a hearty "Ho Ho Ho" for the Giants 6 game win streak! I'm still annoyed with myself for not bringing the camera to that game to get pictures of the fights.

[ December 16, 2004, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: BPT_336 ]

Thanks bpt!!

The fans are still on the owner's side even with the 24% paycut proposition. That's what a poll on TSN done by Ipsos shows.

When Canadians were asked which side is more fair and reasonable, 60% said the owners. Only 20% the players.

And if the season were to be canceled, 52% would put the blame on the players. 21% would blame the owners for the shutdown.

Ah, nice to see that common sense is the norm up in Canada. When I hear all the talk about the union not wanting to weaken their position, I think "Since when is earning no income, hamstringing your sport, and publicly appearing so arrogant and greedy that longtime fans take the side of corporate fatcats over the players bargaining from a position of strength?"

Citing lack of developments ("there is no need for a meeting at this point in time"), the board of Governors meeting set for Jan. 14 has been cancelled.

Yep Zeno, just read a short story confirming this in my morning Sports section.
Also was a short story about Theo Fleury, who it sounds like still, has not gotten his shit togther. He has been barred from playing with the Horse Lake Thunder of the North Peace Hockey League, Hockey Canada ruled from Edmonton. Of course he was suspended from the NHL for repeated substance abuse violations.

[ January 07, 2005, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

According to the ESPN.com article, the reason Fleury can't play is because of a Hockey Canada ruling last month that NHL players under contract last season can not play for the Allan Cup, the top prize for senior hockey in Canada. Fleury had a contract for 2003-04.

This was the weekend that, had there been a season, the Flyers (and I) would be in Los Angeles and Anaheim for games tonight and tomorrow... and I'd have gotten to meet Adam... wink

Dear NHL and NHLPA,

You bastards! :mad:

Love (not),
JIP

[ January 07, 2005, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Allan Cup. Interesting you mention that Joe. Spokane was the first American based team to win this back in 1970-'71, when he had the Spokane Jets of the senior amateur W.I.H.L. Spokane went on to win about 3-4 more Allan Cups if memory serves me too.

And I'd have gotten to meet you. [We need a smiley indicating lasciviousness] Meeting me may not be that much of a thrill--pretty much everyone who have done so compare it to root canal. But a pair of games over the weekend would have been most welcome.

~Adam

So pretty much everyone who has met you is an idiot? Fortunately, I'm not. wink

On my way home today, I heard on the radio that Fleury will be able to play for the Horse Lake Thunder senior hockey team after all. Despite all his off-ice troubles, Theoren's love for the game was never in doubt and I'm happy he has won his appeal. Although I live in the same province, I have to admit I had never even heard of the Horse Lake Reserve* (it's WAY north of here), let alone its hockey team, until the controversy first erupted.

*aside: I think Americans use the phrase "Indian reservation", in Canada it is better-known as "First Nations reserve". Fleury has a Métis heritage (mixed native and non-native blood).

[ January 21, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Marc ]