I am curious as to how the 2 events break down in terms of sports participation -- which sports are more competitive at which event?

For example, there are only 5 men's basketball teams in Montreal, which makes that tournament pretty lame. All the top teams -- all U.S. -- went to Chicago. Wrestling in Montreal had only a third of the competitors as Chicago. Water polo in Montreal is missing West Hollywood, the most dominant team. I think most top swimmers went to Chicago. (Of course, there is some cross-over but I suspect not that much).

On the other hand, I know the ice hockey in Montreal is first-rate and was told the best rowers went to Montreal. And some sports (handball in Montreal and flag football in Chicago) were only held in one place.

Would love people with first-hand knowledge to post. Where did the best volleyball teams go? Tennis? Track? Bodybuilding? Swimming etc.

Thanks in advance for the input.

Well, I won't be flying in to Montreal until tomorrow, but the Gay Games had more than 16 hours of figure skating competition, and the OutGames has 6. So, there are clearly fewer figure skaters. The OutGames also doesn't have any competition categories for lower level figure skaters so there may only be higher level skaters.

And me. I'm just going to take whatever penalities they give me for only having one kind of spin and one jump.

Best,

Buttercup

Slightly off-topic, but as I posted elsewhere there is an official photography company that is photographing athletes at all the events (and selling the photos to athletes as souvenirs). I came across the team poster for the London Cruisers, the men's basketball team that was mentioned in Outsports's Gay Games Notebook. With the top American b-ballers absent, perhaps these guys will have a chance.

Nice picture of the London bball team. I remember some of them form when they came to the Coady Roundball Classic in Chicago last year.

With 5 Men's teams in basketball, the odds are in their favor of winning a medal!!!

If anybody is watching or participating in softball, I'd like to hear how that is going in Montreal.

Thanks!

I was looking on their softball results page today and it appears that they have a total of less than 25 teams (men AND women)... and that includes fastpitch. Did I miss something? It seemed as though they were going to have a LOT more teams, based on their "statistics" page ...

I am participating in tennis and although there are probably half the participants here in Montreal than were in Chicago, the competition is just as tough, at least within the A Singles and Open divisions. I have been playing GLTA tennis for over 15 years so i have some idea of the competition levels.

I like the fact that there are new players who I have never seen or have never played in the GLTA tournaments in the States. My sense is the level of play is equal to the three past GG (Sydney, Amsterdam and NY) I have participated in.

Overall, I am glad I decided to come to the Outgames and so are my other friends who are playing tennis and traveling with me. We got the chance to spend the day watching swimming, diving, volleyball, figure skating and sychronized swimming. Lot's of fun and all the events were well attended.

Very interesting to hear that Tennis is a smaller competition in Montreal. Chicago had challenging weather but good facilities for tennis (Northwestern University).

Also surprising to note that Hockey in Montreal has only 4 more teams than Chicago (28 v. 24). Many would have guessed that Montreal would have dominated attracting hockey teams.

I haven't been to swimming or track & field yet, how does the size of the competitions compare to Chicago?

I was not surprised by the number of tennis players here in Montreal. I wasn't even surprised the the split: GG tennis was largely North American players and Outgames tennis is largely International players. This explains much of the difference in numbers of tennis players.

I would be curious to hear from any volleyball players that competed in both Chicago and Montreal.

In Chicago, volleyball was the #2 sport (for the number of participants), and the Chicago venue was Navy Pier, which received amazing comments from volleyball players.

I've been told that there are 820 swimmers in Montreal. There were 984 in Chicago. I can confirm the Chicago number but not the Montreal figure.

The Montreal number makes sense. I remember seeing Louise Roy on tv before the games and when she talked about swimming she said it was the biggest sport with 900 participants and that they had former Olympic athletes in this event.

So a number in the 800 makes sense.

Related to size of competitions in Montreal, I just re-read the March 2006 Gazette article linked in a prior post and noted the following:

"Tewksbury said more than 11,000 athletes have signed up.

“Many of the 35 sports (categories) are filling quickly," he said. "Badminton, basketball, dancesport, soccer, squash, tennis and volleyball are almost full."

In Montreal this week, there are 11 basketball teams competing (compared with Chicago's 40+ teams). It is clear basketball, nor soccer, nor tennis were “almost full”.

Here is the link to the Gazette article again: “…basketball,.. almost full”
March 2006 Gazette Article - noting sports that were \"almost full\"

Many questioned Montreal's registration numbers all along and statements like the one above don't help to build credibility.

[ August 03, 2006, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: SportsGuy22 ]

It looks like Chicago had close to 1,500 more athletes than Montreal competing in team sports were both offered the sport.

This is straight from the team schedules posted by Montreal and Chicago (with avg team size assumed).

Across all seven team sports held in both Chicago and Montreal (Softball, Volleyball, Hockey, Soccer, Basketball, Beach Volleyball & Water Polo) here is the detail from the team schedules posted:

1. Softball (avg team size of 14): teams - Chicago 90 v. Montreal 23; athletes - Chicago 1,260 v. Montreal 322
Chicago Softball Schedule
Montreal Softball Schedule

2. Basketball (avg team size of 10): teams - Chicago 42 v. Montreal 11; athletes - Chicago 420 v. Montreal 110
Chicago Basketball Schedule
Montreal Basketball Schedule

3. Volleyball (avg team size of 9): teams - Chicago 107 v. Montreal 97; athletes - Chicago 963 v. Montreal 873
Chicago Volleyball Schedule
Montreal Volleyball Schedule

4. Beach Volleyball (avg team size of 2 - 2s & 4s played): teams - Chicago 72 v. Montreal 49; athletes - Chicago 144 v. Montreal 98
Chicago Beach Volleyball Schedule
Montreal Beach Volleyball Schedule

5. Hockey (avg team size of 14): teams - Chicago 24 v. Montreal 28; athletes - Chicago 336 v. Montreal 392
Chicago Hockey Schedule
Montreal Hockey Schedule

6. Waterpolo (avg team size 14): teams - Chicago 18 v. Montreal 16; athletes - Chicago - 252 v. Montreal 224
Chicago Waterpolo Schedule
Montreal Waterpolo Schedule

7. UPDATED: Soccer (avg team size of 18 for 11s and 10 for 7s): teams - Chicago - 25 all 11s v. Montreal 21 - 15 were 11s and 6 were 7s; athletes - Chicago 650 v. Montreal 285 (adjusted from 428)
Chicago Soccer Schedule
Montreal Soccer Schedule

[Note: regardless of what you assume for the avg team size the story is the same]

Approximate total athletes in common team sports: Chicago - 4,000 v. Montreal – 2,500.

Chicago also had 26 flag football teams (about 400 athletes).

Additionally, participants in Montreal have confirmed that Swimming, Tennis and Bowling are all smaller competitions than in Chicago (all saying that the competitions were very good - just smaller). These sports have been three of the largest sports at past Games and represented over 2,400 participants in Chicago.

With some of the the biggest sports (Swimming, Tennis, Bowling) and almost all team sports having lower numbers of athletes in Montreal, does Montreal even have 10,000 athletes participating?

[ August 12, 2006, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: SportsGuy22 ]

Montreal has dragon boat race - many people for each team. And a few handball teams.

On the cultural side there is choir, again many people in each group. I don't know if Chicago had that.

If I hear what is the 12,000 participants number (sports and/or culture and/or conference) I'll post.

WRESTLING: To continue on the numbers comparisons...

Chicago Wrestling: 96 were paired of the 105 who actually met all criteria and showed up.
Almost all had at least 2-3 matches.
We ran out of time and officials because the heat made us pace the rounds more slowly.
An absolute success on every level, except that we really missed our comrades from Canada and Europe. We did flush out a lot of wrestlers from Chicago.
We also handled our first drug testing and our first TG with flying colors!

GG7 Wrestling Results

Montreal Wrestling: 22 were paired.

This is not something to gloat about.
Many of the Montreal 22 are my friends.
Some of them like Carl & Scotty from NYC, Gary from San Diego, and Paul from London supported both events.

It seriously highlights that smaller sports like wrestling cannot support the split like a volleyball can.

more later....

Continuing with the comparison numbers. Tennis, another of the largest of all sports, saw numbers in Chicago twice as large as those in Montreal.

Gay Games Tennis Registrations

OutGames Tennis Registrations

Since I am a runner, I was really interested to see the outcomes of both games with regard to 10K, 1/2 Marathon and Marathon. Here is a break down of the number of participants for the above mentioned events at both games.

Gay Games

Marathon------ 142
1/2 Marathon-- 273
10K----------- 268

Outgames

Marathon------ 92
1/2 Marathon-- 244
10K----------- 253

Sadly, I wish there could have been one games that could have accomodated all the athletes. To be sure, the competetion level would be much higher with a combined force. This would be the case for all sports not just running.

We have seen events at both games that had less than 5 people. This would have been lessened and the medals would have counted for more had everyone competed together. Perhaps this will change in the future.

I was surprised by the number for marathon in Montreal since I heard this morning 700 were taking part in the marathon. Then I realised you get that number by adding the three events (running all at once I guess).

The water polo tournament director in Montreal said the same thing about the caliber of play. Having two games split the level of performance, there are no american teams in Montreal. He sais the two events should agree to make one event because the level of competition is suffering right now.

Total number of athletes in Montreal: 10,248
(and for 835 culture; 1,516 for conference)

post to another thread

[ August 05, 2006, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Zeno ]

Powerlifting comparison ...

41 lifters in Chicago, with 11 in Montreal.

Gay Games was fully sanctioned by the IPF, with IOC/WADA Doping Control.

OutGames was an unsanctioned event.

Chris Morgan

Reading a lot of the postings here, I guess one can conclude without much doubt that size really does matter, for gay men especially. For me two games just means more eye-candy since I won't be at either. So I can hardly wait for the next round. Interesting that drug testing was done, I assume according to international standards. Does that mean that results would be recognized by traditional international organizations like IAAF? Imagine a contestant setting a world record in gay games.

In this case, you see size mattering because the OutGames billed itself from the start as a huge sports event with the Gay Games being tiny "only a brand." Up until they finally had to post the schedules online for actual participants they continued these claims. What claim will be next to be proven untrue? Spectator numbers? Economic impact? Fiscal solvency? Presumably the government auditors will have the final word.

In reply to Sportinlife ...

Hi ...

Powerlifting is fully sanctioned at Gay Games by the International Powerlifting Federation (IOC Affiliate) and is run in exactly the same way as a World Championships ...

All officials in Chicago were IPF catefory 1 International referees, plus we had a 3 member 'jury' overseeing the 3 platform officials. (6 in total).

We also had WADA / IOC approved collection teams for Doping Control. So, all Gay Games, Masters and National records would all be fully recognised if set by lifters.

Going into the competition this was not an impossible scenario ...

We had 1 current Senior World Champion and 3 former World Masters Champions registered for Chicago 2006, plus a host of US national and state competitors ...

There were quite a number of new Games records set on the day .....

Chris Morgan

I have been involved with the International Gay & Lesbian Football Association for a number of years and, thankfully, most of the teams opted to stick together and compete in Chicago, which was designated as our annual championship once the schism between GLISA and the Federation of Gay Games was announced. We had 14 Division 2 teams and 7 Division 1 teams compete from various countries in Chicago, including the United States, England, Canada and Ireland. There were an additional 14 women's teams at the Games, bringing the total participants to 35 teams.

Montreal managed to pull in only one true Division 1 team (Paris) and nine other teams into Division 2, all of which were combined into round robin play because Paris had no real competitiors.

Further, the "international" teams, namely Japan, Australia, and Belgium, were not truly representative of their countries as the international teams were in Chicago.

10 teams, 6 medals -- doesn't sound like an elite competition to me.

There is also another component to report - while Stonewall FC, Florida Storm, and The Americas were at Gay Games and Paris was at OutGames, most of the other best teams (Munich, Cologne, Berlin) chose to stay home and avoid taking sides, which is a negative to both competitions.

The ice hockey tournament had 17 teams, all were completely or almost totally American and/or Canadian. Specifically, there were a total of 251. Four players were from Europe. The rest were all Americans and Canadians. Subtracting out the Europeans, there were 6 "American" teams, 9 "Canadian" teams, and 3 that were more or less half Canadian, half American. So much for international competition.

This may reflect the general lack of GLBT hockey players on other continents, and ever having a truly international hockey competition may be impossible. I don't know. At Sydney, the American team I played with played against only other American teams we had faced in other tournaments in the States. It was disappointing to go all the way to Sydney just to play the same American teams. It was disappointing to go to Montreal and play only Canadians, and many of the same American players we have faced in the other North American tournaments.

Gay Games had 24 teams, including 23 from the US and 1 from Canada. I don't know how many players from outside North America participated. Difficult to believe many.

Generally speaking, the Canadians consistently offer the highest caliber competition in North America, with Colorado leading the Americans (although they flamed out in Montreal. However, to Colorado's credit, their competitive team played in the competitive division whereas at least half a dozen other competitive put themselves down in the rec division. Apparently, this also happend in the Gay Games hockey tournament.)

It was disappointing to see many teams in Montreal competiting below their level. The result was lots of lopsided and embarrassing victories and shutouts. But that's for another discussion board.

Still haven't seen golf results from outgames...

How many were in Montreal for the following events?

Sports: Badminton, Rowing, Triathlon, Bowling, Golf, Cycling, Dragon Boat Racing, and Dancing. For most other sports, accurate numbers are avaialbe or have been provided.

Culture: Bear (5-30 have been noted), Choral, Band.

Can those with this information please provide it?

[ August 07, 2006, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: SportsGuy22 ]

What kind of event is/was that? I'm serious.

I was told by several rowers that the rowing event in Montreal was much bigger than the one in Chicago. They stayed away from Chicago because of the distance to the venue and the politics surrounding the venue.

I went to cycling in Montreal and there seemed to be a lot of people. I only went to the time trials competition, but I'd guess there were 150 there for that. Just a guess.

It looks like both golf and the triathlon had just under 200 each.

This is why it is so important for GLBT hockey to have a parent organization like GHI (formerly IGLIHA). The North American organizations have been resistant in the past to giving any control over to a parent association. With the OG in Copenhagen and the GG in Cologne, we are truly hoping to have a great deal of input in these tournaments and address some of these issues. We need qualifying rounds and multiple divisions to make this work. Remember a lot of these teams have not played before until they arrive at the games, so it is not always a deliberate act placing your team in too low of a division.

The cycling in Chicago attracted 180 for the ITT and 230 for the road races.

the crit had 130.

looking at the times of the Ind time trail in montreal (ave 8 mins) it must have been hardly worth warming up

i also did the tri in chicago and my reckoning was close to 400.

what all these stats say to me (and confirmed by talking to athletes in chicago), is that there is just not the desire nor the numbers to have two international event. lets hope that sense and not egos and politics will prevail and we see the end of it now.

kate

Since this is the "Sports: Gay Games vs. Outgames" thread, here is a summary estimate of participants for Chicago © & Montreal (M) by sport:

Softball - C 1,300 M 322
Swimming - C 1,000 M 820
Volleyball - C 963 M 882
Tennis - C 691 M 355
UPDATED: Soccer/Football - C 650 M 300 (Montreal had 21 teams with 6 playing 7s rather than 11s. Soccer team avg should be 18 vs. prior at 22. From schedules posted it appears no women's teams from outside of Canada participated.)
Bowling* - C 621 M 400
Marathon - C 598 M 300
Triathlon - C 591 M 200
5k/10 Road - C 548 M 253
Track & Field - C 461 M 322
Basketball - C 411 M 110
Flag Football - C 364 M NA
Ice Hockey - C 314 M 392
Golf - C 250 M 200
Cycling* - C 258 M 250
Waterpolo - C 234 M 224
Dancing* - C 224 M 400?
Pool/Billiards - C 151 M 125
Martial Arts - C 148 M NA
Sailing - C 140 M NA
Beach Volleyball - C 140 M 98
Physique* - C 140 M 110
Darts - C 120 M NA
Wrestling - C 118 M 22
Badminton* - C 120 M 300?
Open Water Swim - C 116 M NA
Figure Skating - C 111 M 60
Raquetball - C 90 M NA
Rowing* - C 65 M 300?
Powerlifing - C 41 M 11
Diving* - C 38 M 35
Squash* - C 32 M 125
Sync Swimming - C 22 M 30
Dragon boat racing* - C NA M 300?
Cross Country - C NA M 101
Karate* - C NA M 50
Aerobics* - C NA M 75
Handball* - C NA M 75
UPDATED: Roller racing - C NA M 100
Bridge* - C NA M 200?
Table tennis* - C NA M 125

Total - Chicago - 11,100 Montreal - 8,000

* indicates Montreal # is not confirmed - attempted to put in reasonable to high #s were * noted. Input on any of the above numbers is welcomed to make them more accurate. Where possible, public sources such as team schedules, organizers input or results where used (see prior Outsports posts).

The shortfall in Montreal's sports participant numbers to projections and when compared to Chicago is signficant.

Montreal reported 10,248 athletes. . It appears that this is overstated by more than 2,000 or 25% (based upon summary above). And is 4,000 less than expected/advertised.

From link above, the Montreal press release headline was "Mission accomplished: the 1st World Outgames Montréal 2006 welcomed half a million spectators and 18 599 participants and volunteers!".

A rather misleading headlines when you look at the sports numbers for athletes (the foundation for the Games).

Clearly Montreal was a great host city and held a great Games, but the fact that the low athlete numbers have not been discussed on Outsports or in the media is surprising.

[ August 12, 2006, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: SportsGuy22 ]

Wasn't one of the beefs between the Gay Games and Outgames that the Outgames wanted more athletes and the Gay Games said they should have less? Due to the Gay Games programming their event a week ahead, and a seeming boycott of American teams in Montreal (basketball, for example), Outgames did have less than they had wanted. And it would seem that Gay Games defenders are now gloating over this fact. I don't understand how you can say less is better... and then say less is inferior, ha ha.

For all those who wish the two groups could kiss and make up... I just don't see that happening. I think the average athlete and sports fan should just take advantage of the two events... and a plague on both their houses! wink

According to an article to La Presse, bridge had 195.

"le bridge a inscrit 195 participants, majoritairement gais, provenant de 12 pays."
Bridge in La Presse

Roller racing: 36 is the number for the relay (9 teams of 4) They had other individual competitions. I find it hard to get an accurate number by looking at results - people can compete in more than one distance plus a relay.
Same with biking, running, triathlon.

And people who took the start in a race and did not finish could not appear in the final results for an event. It's tricky counting athletes from the results page.

I have seen golf results up on the website. There are a lot of N/A including Gilles Ducceppe so maybe partial results only so far.

canmark - the sports participants numbers are provided to keep the focus on the sports.

I don't think there was as much a 'boycott' of one event or the other, but instead choices having to be made where going to both events was not feasible and one of the events had an expectation of much stronger competition (as was the case with basketball). Smaller sports can't support competing events and something is lost with the Games.

I agree with the earlier post that it would be better for all to have one event every four years in the future.

Hopefully, the lower ahtlete partipations numbers for Montreal (smaller than any Gay Games since 1990) will keep people thinking about the sports rather what a great city Montreal is for LGBT people (which it is and was an amazing place during Outgames), the ceremonies (which were great), or the parties when considering getting back to one Games event.

For those of us who compete and play in an event where if you lose in the first round (tennis), the next six days can be very brutal if the host city does not have a lot to offer the LGBT community. I feel the concept of a sporting event can be combined effectively and positively with other social events and that all activities outside the actual sporting competitions should not be lumped into "parties" as some here have tried to conclude.

I for one did not attend any of the "parties" in Montreal nor did I feel any pressure to. I did go to several free events in the evening that was set up by the Outgames and I did attend the free drag show Mascara after the closing ceremonies that was well attended by both gays and straights. It was a great way to cap off a great week.

The Outgames was truly a special event and I am so glad I participated, competed and socialized.

But wasn't the cause of these "choices" the fact that the Gay Games scheduled their event immediately before the Outgames--which had set their date years before? The Gay Games could have delayed a year, giving them more time to prepare and the opportunity to learn from the strengths and weaknesses of Montreal, or could have chosen an earlier or later time (June, September), but instead cost Montreal a lot of American participants, and probably cost themselves some participants, too.

Montreal was very well run, but it was definitely hurt by lower numbers of participants and visitors. But whose fault is that?

I agree with the comments of ejcnyc, in that evening social events which do not conflict with sports are a good thing. Montreal seemed to have negatively tarred with the "party" label by some on this board.

Personally, I can't comment as I didn't attend any of the parties in Montreal. I have no interest in such things. But I would like entertainment options--sitting in a gay bar all night isn't fun for me, either. That there were choral events, theatre, concerts, comedy shows, free entertainment at Square Viger... these are good things. I'm sure Chicago similarly had a host of entertainment options. Providing options for your participants is a good thing.

Also, I don't think bickering and saying who's better and who's worse is endearing either event to their potential target market. Hopefully both events can move forward, and given that there will be a year difference in Copenhagen and Cologne, hopefully both can benefit from full (or almost full) participation of the LGBT sports community.

There are 2 models. Let them do what they do best, and let people get the most out of these events. I wish the best of success to both Copenhagen and Cologne, and hope people are able to attend both, and enjoy the competition and the cities and their culture.

[ August 07, 2006, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Mark Tewksbury made rounds at all venues and I had a chance to talk to him at the hockey tournament. With his infectious enthusiasm, passion for the gay sports movement and his personal charm, it's easy to see why he was able to pull things off pretty well. He said that although he felt the Federation and GLISA would never be able to work together, he did feel that both competitions can survive and thrive in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

As long as there are two organizations competing for the same goal this will only create a diluted and fractured environment. Personally I think some community mediation needs to help these groups get behind their issues.

From what I can tell the schism happened because Montreal and FGG couldn't get over the budget control issue (there appears to have been other organizational challenges but these all manifested in the final showdown of the budget). GLISA appears to be the alternative created because FGG took their Games and went elsewhere (if we can't play in your game we'll create our own).

It's a real shame that this happened since there was so much opportunity for Gay Games to have reached a higher pinnacle in 2006. FGG should have probably released a little more control of their Games. Montreal should have been a little more realistic in their budget and plans and not created the atmosphere of skepticism with FGG.

What happened was a great showing in Chicago but with little of the organizational and logistics quality that Montreal had. Montreal had a great party and great logistics but with a smaller competitive crowd showing up.

In the end this will continue to happen as two sets of "games" in consecutive years will strain travel budgets for competitiors. I really feel for those that want to compete in the games and have to gamble on where the competition will be. I'm sorry to say but I will only support a team going to one competition. There are too many issues facing our community to back competing games. Only one will get my money.

It will also create competition between the two organizations that can only get more and more divisive. Both will compete for sanctioning and support from the various sport organizations to make their games THE games to compete in. This can only create disagreement within the organizations on who to support or back. What could make matters worse is if exclusive sanctioning is required by either games.

I'm really sad to have seen this occur in 2006. What could have been a great year for G/L sports gave us yet another "drama scene" in the G/L community. Boy, we sure know how to live out our stereotypes don't we. I guess it's that creative gene in us (sorry, you have to have some sarcasm in situations like this).

It seems to me that people here are trying awfully hard to continue the rift. When I look at the two games I see that we managed to pull off two successful games which, despite being held a relatively small distance apart and almost one after the other had a combined attendance almost double what the previous games had. That's got to be a lot of people who had never participated before having a great experience and looking forward to their next chance to participate, I know I fall into that category. Separated by a year and a larger geographic distance, perhaps specializing a little more in the sports they offer I see no reason why we shouldn't have two great games and many more people participating.

IMHO the crisis has passed and the future looks bright!

Um, no. The Gay Games have been held every four years for decades, and had been scheduled for the summer of 2006 for many, many, many years.

But given your logic, one has to wonder why GLISA has chosen to schedule their next Out Games in 2009, only one year before the next Gay Games. They certainly have more to learn about quadrennial sports festivals than does the FGG, and if, as you say, three years is not enough time to prepare, they could have scheduled their event in 2011, or better yet in 2012 to allow for a 2-year interval between Games.

I think you are confusing "less" with "realistic". As far as I know, the FGG never spoke of having any desire for as few athletes as possible, but simply wished to have a realistic budget based on prudent forecasts for participant numbers.

The Sydney Gay Games were held in early November 2002, certainly not summer for many participants.

How does one reason that GLISA has a lot to learn about quadrennial sports festivals, when out of the gate their first event has been well received by participants and attendees? I am sure there is room for improvement but from my experience they seemed to do a lot more right which inidicates to me they are moving in the right direction.

Copenhagen will be a huge test for the survival of Outgames.

Outgames consisted of 40 percent Canadians, and Americans overwhelmingly supported Gay Games over Outgames. I don't see how it’s possible that Copenhagen will have decent numbers, unless they are planning a scaled down version of OG’s. Additionally, they will be competing with EuroGames and Gay Games, even though both will be held in different years

Lindsay - I could not agree more. The 'crisis' of two events within a week has passed. The future is indeed bright.

Somewhere close to 21,000 different athletes took part in the Gay Games and Outgames, if you figure about 1,ooo did both. Of those 21,ooo something like 14,000 were North American with about 7,000 from the rest of the world. That tells me there were likely thousands of people from outside of North America who would have been at an event - were one of them closer to their home. Instead those in Europe - who will have not had an event on this scale since 1998, will have to wait until 2009 - 11 years - when I suspect they will be in Copenhagen in huge numbers. My guess is that you will see well over 7,000 participants - from Europe alone - in Copenhagen.

For MANY people traveling off continent is just not really a viable financial option. Heck there were many among the 500 who went to the Outgames from Toronto, who REALLY had to strain their finances in order to pull off the expense. I know of others - including many in my own softball or volleyball leagues, who determined that the cost of 8-9 nights in Montreal, added to the registration cost, were just too much for their limited pocketbook. And that is with the event being in a city that is just a 5 hours drive away!

To limit this to one event every four years that may result in an event not being on your own continent for up to 12 or 16 years, is quite simply eliminating tens of thousands of potential participants from ever being involved. And I thought the whole idea was to be as INCLUSIVE as possible.

Us 'rich' fags need to keep that in perspective.

By the way - got home last night and watched the Outgames Opening Ceremonies that I had taped while in Montreal. Goose bumps watching it! What a great opening ceremony! Unfortunately some how I screwed up and did not tape the closing. Argh!

Hey Softball Stud. You do make an interesting point about Americans supporting the Gay Games over the Outgames. But was that because they were supporting the 'Gay Games' over the 'Outgames' or was it because they were supporting the event in their country? Or for many - simply a matter of going to the event that most of their friends were going to?

Realistically I could use the same argument to say that 80% of the rest of the World supported the 'Outgames' over the 'Gay Games' and especially in view of the overwhelmingly positive word of mouth that the Outgames is now getting, from anybody who was there - is Copenhagen - who come up first on the calendar - really at a disadvantage? Your argument certainly can be a two edged sword.

Regardless, I don't agree with that reasoning - either way - and I think both Cologne and Copenhagen will do just fine - thank you very much.

Copenhagen will be a huge test for the survival of Outgames? It seems many argued for months prior to the first Outgames that Montreal would make or break the future of the Outgames.

Having attended both events, I can tell you that it is not GLISA who has something to learn about putting on these events.

I don't think it's a surprise that after 2.5 years of being berated in the press and to athletes about the size and scope of the Gay Games that someone supportive the Gay Games would finally take the opportunity to thoroughly review the numbers Montreal finally had to publish. Are you honestly saying that it doesn't bother you that even to this day it would appear that Montreal is signifiantly overstating their numbers? Don't you think that those who support the Gay Games and its legacy should look carefully at the integrity of the partner with whom you suggest they "kiss and make up"?

Kevin,

Your post is totally inappropriate and I had honestly expected better of you as a figurehead of the Chicago Gay Games. The whole "he said, she said" issue is over - the events have taken place and will be judged by the actual events and their participants.

I'll start by saying that I had a great time in Chicago and found people very friendly and helpful. While everyone was well meaning, it was not my favorite of the two.

The problems encountered by athletes there are well documented and fully undermine the whole spin of "Our games are athelete focused while Montreal's are party focused". I attended both and found this to be completely untrue.

What is more important, having 11,500 people participate in an event that was Disorganized, Earnest, largely American and in desperate need of a true international presence, at times Underwhelming but ultimately Fun, or having 10,000 people participate in an event that was Organized, Fabulous, International and in desperate need of a true American presence, at times Overwhelming, and definitely a New Standard for world gay sporting and cultural events?

Unfortunately the regatta turned out to be dis-organized. For example, they had told us they were arranging a shuttle to the lake (2 hours out), but even 5 days before the event they were replying to e-mails with « there will be a shuttle » but no information on where to get it or when!

I checked at the Gay Games registration area at the Hilton Hotel daily and there was only a « check website » message. Of course there was nothing on the website, even when I was leaving to go to the opening ceremonies at Soldier Field Saturday evening (the regatta was on Sunday!). Also left voicemails with 3 people and multiple e-mails, with no reply. Also heard many stories like this.

I did drop by the hotel at 5pm (athletes were supposed to be at the stadium by 5) and there was a hand scrawled note that the shuttle would leave at 9am the next morning! The opening
ceremonies dragged on to 12 :30am but needless to say I left long before that.

The head race official (not sure if she would have a more specific title) who was there to oversee the event and provide sanctioning was asked to volunteer her time 5 days before the event! Needless to say she was not impressed and it did not do much to build bridges with the mainstream rowing community.

They allowed direct entry of midwest teams at the regatta, which I really liked, made for a friendly mixed crowd and helped to fill in the fact there were so few Gay Games participants. However, Gay Games medals were supposed to awarded to Gay Games registered athletes only, with the direct entry people
taken out of the standings, but they awarded medals to everyone.

Of course there was much to-do about that and they then had people exchange medals in later days and it leaves me unclear of what I really won. When I went to the Hilton hotel the next day to exchange my medals they asked me what they should be (!) which I found quite amazing and disconcerting at the same time. After a bunch of phone calls and back and forth they just upgraded both my medals and sent me on my way.

This appears to have been a "hush" tactic as I know of at least one person who just gave them a menu of what medals he should have and they gave them to him. The results are now posted (they took a week to appear for a one day event with maybe 40 participants) and show I won a Silver and a Bronze. My suitcase contains a Gold and a Silver lol. I've asked for a participants list showing direct entry and Gay Games participants but have been told this is not public information.

They also didnt post a map of the course until after the warmup, and it was illegible etc. Given all the controversy around the rowing venue I would have thought a bit more care would have be shown in putting on the event.

We rowers thought this was just a rowing thing but I heard they didnt have tennis balls on site at the beginning of the first day of play and that in the aquatic events (1000 participants, FINA sanctioned) they were pulling spectators from the stands to work as timers ….

Glitches like this (and I can't believe the 365gay.com article that the "Games went off without a hitch" - you mean they didn't have a hitch to pull the boat trailer? That kind of hitch? Talk about spin.) can be worked out in a multi-day event so that by the end of tennis people could look back and laugh at the first morning but when your event is only one day, well, you remember that day.

Don