Cyd and I have our overviews of both events and where we go from here.

Cyd: Outgames 1, Gay Games 0

Jim: Chicago saved the Gay Games

[ August 08, 2006, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Jim at Outsports ]

Good articles guys. Just finished the morning skim and both bring out good points. I only hope the organizers of both events are reading these articles and posts (which I believe they are). There's too much at stake to just crawl back into their offices and believe their own people.

I think what is more interesting are the opinions of several of the people posting to these discussion threads. It is very apparent there is diversity of opinion in the community.

Those who support Outgames believe in the two game prospect, primarily because Outgames is the new kid in town and realize there has to be coexistince to survive. Outgames hasn't won the fight outright and knows Gay Games will not be going away anytime soon.

The Gay Games supporters dismiss the "two game world" because in their hearts there is only one international multi-sport event, the Gay Games originally founded by Tom Waddell. Outgames challenges that world and stability.

Then there's the small majority of people who really don't give a rat's ass which one remains as long as their is only one. Both have their merits (as both of you pointed out) and both have their flaws. I like Cyd's point that FGG needs to shut up for a little bit and do some listening. Reminds me of a former boss's wisdom - "God gave you two eyes, two ears and one mouth, use them proportionately."

Too many of the posters here are only looking at participation in the events themselves. They don't understand the money, effort and emotion that go into pulling these things off. 2006 was a rare year because there was momentum with both groups due to the budgetary rift (ah, there's that money thing again).

FGG's only hope is to shut up for a change and listen to the issues to build a stronger event. They need to give some latitude to the LOCs while guiding them in how to pull off a successful event. Very few of these LOCs have ever run an event of this magnitude and need some guidance on the event itself. However, they need to be able to bring the excitement of their city into the mix and build a great cultural experience. Regardless what some think, these things are more than just the sports.

GLISA needs to understand that life outside Montreal will be a whole new world and it will be important to build the alliances with the international sports organizations. Sanctioning will be critical to get beyond the parties and focus more on the sports. Those truly competitive athletes are looking for sanctioned events.

Having multi-sports in non-quadrennial years is a good idea if you have a strong sports movement to start with. We don't so these will only dilute and drain the parent organizations. GLISA doesn't have the strength to sustain this model. They are not the IOC with it's prestige, manpower and money.

International sports organizations do need to step in and fill the gap for the athletes. Gay Bowl is great for flag football. It brings together the athletes focused on that sport and allows a city to make that event THE event at that time. It takes less manpower and finances to accomplish and provides a great annual event for the sport. This model is a good model for sports.

I know I keep focusing on the business of Games but in the end that's what this is all about. I don't live the fantasy land that these things "just happen." They take people and money to make happen and quite frankly our community is becoming more and more drained in its ability to deal with all the challenges in front of it. These sporting events are great diversions from the issues of gay marriage, health issues, and all forms of discrimination. However, they shouldn't wipe us out trying to entertain us.

Hi guys,

I just read the articles - and I think both are very well written and cover both sides very well.

Cyd - I couldn't agree with your arguments more. If FGG had followed through with Montreal, we wouldn't have this problem. Rather, we'd have a problem with dealing with a massively successful sporting endeavour.

Regardless, GLISA has proved itself incredibly well in it's first run - and now both games will continue.

Yes, Copenhagen isn't Montreal, but I have a feeling that with the talent and skill that GLISA has brought to Montreal, will be transfered to Copenhagen. I just hope that the Americans don't boycott it the way the did this time around - this way not only will GLISA put on a better and more organized event, we can solve the problem of having good and solid competition - the apparently only thing missing from Outgames.

I think it would be useful for people to take a closer look at the state of gay sport in Europe. They have the Eurogames in three of four years and a multitude of other multisport events. Without a doubt these events are smaller than the World games but they do provide an opportunity for a lot of people to participate in a more affordable manner than flying off to another continent for a week-long competition.

It seems to me that the difference in perspective between GLISA supporters and detractors is that the former think that having more events will move the gay sports movement forward by providing more opportunities to participate in various games and thereby get more people involved and raise the visibility of the entire movement while the latter see more games as competition for existing sports competitions. GLISA supporters seem to believe there is a lot of room for growth while detractors seem to believe we're slicing up a fixed sized pie.

JIM -- YOU ABSOLUTELY NAILED YOUR COVERAGE OF EACH EVENT AND THE FUTURE OF THE GAY SPORTS MOVEMENT! I kept reading along expecting to disagree with something you said and it didn't happen.

Cyd - I really respect your feelings, and you clearly have a love for sports and the future of the gay sports movement as evidenced by your writing. I felt your article, however, was overly dismissive of the Gay Games. Perhaps in time you will have more of an appreciation for the experience others has in Chicago.

Keep up the great reporting, guys -- there are many more gay sporting events coming up that deserve more attention than the continued riff between GLISA and the Federation!

Absolutely!! And we'll continue to follow them. The truth is, except for a few weeks every four years, the Gay Games and Outgames won't be at the forefront of everyone's mind - or our coverage of gay sports. But, it is awefully nice when they are.

And just one clarification - I enjoyed my time in Chicago! Winning that gold medal is my #1 sports experience of my life! The difference was, I didn't think the organization of the Games added a heck of a lot to my experience in Chicago, whereas the organization of the Outgames REALLY added to my experience in Montreal. How much of that was having 30 months to plan a big event? We'll find out in four years.

[ August 09, 2006, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Cyd at Outsports ]

I enjoyed both articles and I'm sure nobody will be surprised to hear I tend to agree more with Cyd's than Jim's.

A couple of quick other points. RBear you state :
"GLISA needs to understand that life outside Montreal will be a whole new world and it will be important to build the alliances with the international sports organizations. Sanctioning will be critical to get beyond the parties and focus more on the sports. Those truly competitive athletes are looking for sanctioned events."

There never was a focus on parties in Montreal - that was just such an oft repeated falsehood by various posters here, that it seemed to have become accepted as fact - even though it was never true. Outgames outsourced the parties to the party experts BBCM and a significant number of full time Outgames staff were dedicated exclusively to the delivery of the sports program.

Working with international sports organizations is in fact the second of GLISA's 4 main pillars that can be found on their great new website at www.glisa.org. That second pillar is "partnership with mainstream sport, human rights and cultural organizations that share our mission to make all places safe for LGBT athletes to play sport."

In fact 31 of the 35 sports in Montreal were officially sanctioned by either the mainstream provincial, or national sports body for that sport. And in the case of rowing the event was even part of the international sport body’s official calendar! That is why the Outgames tag line - ‘We play for REAL’ was perfect for the event!

Lindsay - you state "GLISA supporters seem to believe there is a lot of room for growth while detractors seem to believe we're slicing up a fixed sized pie."

I could not have said it better! Gay sports is a GROWING phenomenon. Just watch for the potentially explosive growth over the next 10-15 years in such places as Eastern Europe, Asia and South America, growth that GLISA will be fostering. It is wonderful that the USA has helped played such a significant role in building a gay sport infrastructure. But if there is an Outgames or Gay Games in Europe in 2017 or so, that depends on their being up to 50% American participation to be considered successful, I would consider that a huge disappointment. And that is not in any way meant to be a criticism of Americans at all. To me it would be an indication that both the FGG and GLISA had failed to grow GLBT sport in the rest of the world..

Pat

[ August 09, 2006, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Travelpat ]

I also AGREE with Jim's thesis, that the Chicago 2006 organizers saved the Gay Games. If they hadn't stepped up, and the Outgames went on with them, the Gay Games would have taken a devastating blow.

But, I also think that Montreal 2006 put on a better event, and that the FGG needs to change the way it operates if it wants to continue to be the dominant force in the area of these quadrennial games.

Now that is the kind of writing I want to see from Cyd - ha ha!

All kidding aside, the reality of the sports competition within both the Outgames and the Gay Games is that each sport is an event into and of itself. I think one of the reasons why soccer was so successful in Chicago is undoubtedly because of IGLFA's early, continued support of the Federation, but also because of the teams which attended (for whatever reason), the facilities, and the way the tournament was referred and drawn (per IGLFA standards).

While I loved the Opening (yes, I did) and Closing Ceremonies in Chicago, and would have LOVED an athlete's village (by far the best idea I have heard - I got into Sidetrack ONCE the whole week), those things to me are really circuitous to the main reason all of us were there. We came to Chicago (and Montreal) to compete against the best gay athletes in the world, and support those who gave their personal best in whatever discipline they have chosen, no matter how athletic they may been. So when we talk about how great an "event" Montreal was, sure, it's important, but doesn't it simply add to the experience rather than make it?

One could also write: "I just hope that the Canadians and Europeans don't boycott the next Gay Games the way the did this time around."

Not sure "boycott" is the word. Seems that teams and athletes made a choice, mostly based on being able to attend only one event. Some had a longtime loyalty to the Gay Games. But I did hear at least some non-Americans skipped Chicago because of opposition to our govt. (as if the GG was part of the Bush administration.

I hope both events can be successful, but the split does no one any good (witness a lot of posts in this Sports Movement forum).

Hi Sax,

I think you make a very valide point regarding the actual sports of the competition versus other things.

However, I do think it's important to note that if the high caliber athletes in the US were to go to the Outgames, it would had been perfect! GLISA did pull of a wonderful event, incredibly organized with wonderful entertainment. The boycotting American athletes would had simply made it perfect.

This being said - please don't forget those gay athletes who are not as intent on the pure competition factor of the games (myself included).

Remember that Outgames has attracted athletes from all around the world, ones that Gay Games has never been able to attract. While there may be those athletes who don't have the strong athletic skills as other athletes, please remember that my belief is that the Gay Games and Outgames should be promoting the spirit of sports, that make a free and comfortable environment for gays to participate. It's not just about competing against the best athletes, it's about making sports a more open and receptive place for a group of people who have in large part - been NOT accepted in main stream sporting events.

Do you know what I mean?

Interesting reporting on this site. First, they report on the OutGames basketball championship games and then follow that with a report on being gay in the NBA.

http://www.usbasket.com/can/can.asp

Not fooled,

That has to be the BUSIEST website I've ever seen in my life! My eyes were sore just from looking at it!

Rastuurman -- fair enough. I hope that I did make the point that the Gay Games/Outgames was also for an athlete that wanted to achieve their personal best and not just the elite. But I do take your point that the other activities are important, particularly for supporters and such. I do take issue with the fact, however, that there wasn't adequate entertainment in Chicago. The Opening Ceremonies had Andy Bell, Margaret Cho, Megan Mullally, Avenue Q and others including a pretty impressive fireworks display thanks to ESPN while the Closing Ceremonies at Cyndi Lauper, who was worth the hour or so wait to get to her in the program. You could have heard a nail drop in Wrigley when she sang "True Colors". I do wish I had experienced such an Athlete's Village as they had in Montreal -- Boystown as fun and friendly, but not at all focused on athletes. They also didn't have the infrastructure to handle such crowds. And compared to the Sydney Closing Ceremonies dance at Fox Studios, Chicago's party at The Aragon SUCKED!!!

Jim Buzinski wrote in his article:

Exactly. What's more, GLISA has been desperately trying, for the 2-1/2 years it's been in existence, to sign-up LGBT sport federations, with very little success. Even though GLISA doesn't charge a membership fee, its only international federation members are rowing, country/western dance, field hockey, and the frontrunners. The Rowing and Frontrunners Federations have also kept their memberships in the Federation of Gay Games. All the other sport federations have opted to stay out of GLISA -- the IGLA aquatics, football, wrestling, martial arts, tennis, bowling, etc., etc. They all remain in the Federation of Gay Games. Even the EGLSF, by far the biggest LGBT sports organization in Europe and the group that sponsors the EuroGames, which quit the Federation of Gay Games because it wanted the 2006 event to be in Montreal, has refused at its last three annual meetings to join GLISA.

At the Federation of Gay Games Annual Meeting last November, it had three cities bidding to host the Gay Games in 2010 -- Cologne, Johannesburg, and Paris. Each city submitted extensive bid documents detailing their plans, logistics, sports venues, budget, etc., and sent a team of 10 - 20 people or more to Chicago to make their presentation to the Federation. At the GLISA Annual Meeting, they were thankful to have one city willing to host their event in 2009, and the "bid document" as I understood it, was a few tourist brochures.

So the organized LGBT sports community has spoken quite loudly and decisively. I respect that some people think we're better off with two competing events, especially if they're at least a year apart, but for those who see the benefit in a unified and universal LGBT multi-sport festival once every four years, the clear choice is the Gay Games.

And as for GLISA promoting new "Continental OutGames" in other years, this is a real joke. The so-called first North American OutGames which will take place in Calgary next April is simply a new name and logo for the "Western Cup" -- an LGBT multi-sport event which has been going on for the past 25 years! It's not a new tournament at all, and it doesn't provide any opportunities for LGBT sport that weren't there already. It's just an attempt by GLISA to get some glory from an event someone else has done all the work in building up and producing.

As Jim observes, the OutGames simply are not needed. And neither is GLISA.

[ August 09, 2006, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Ozwald ]

That is true. Ceremonies usually bore me but Lauper had everyone's rapt attention and you could see people tearing up. As for the rest of the program, has the deputy mayor of Cologne stopped talking yet?

Hi Sax,

I have to agree (although I was NOT at the Chicago games), but from the video that I saw the ceremonies in Chicago looked fairly dreadful - but YES, that Fireworks display was absolutely amazing.

One thing people also have to remember about Montreal is that we were an Olympic Host City, so 30 years ago we had the city designed in a way to handle an olympic size event. It's kind of unfair to expect the same level from the city of Chicago.

Ozwald, I would suggest, as I have suggested in another posting, that you and people stop being so emphatic about how you dismiss and critize GLISA. Please put things into context that this is a FLEDGLING organization - that for all intents and purposes, put together an incredible Gay athletic competition (far better than any previous Gay Games endeavour, after 24 years of Gay Gaymes experience - according to annecdotal evidence of people who've attended these games, and from the finaincial impact of previous games).

Don't be so quick to dismiss GLISA, since it's already proven how well it can do. People in the beginning on this message board were talking about how Montreal would NEVER be able to pull through and compete against Gay Games, and how they would go bankrupt... you name it.

Well - none of that happened, and we will have another OutGames in 2009.

I suggest you take a wait and see approach, since so far - they're doing pretty darn well!

Oh - and I might add - even if the next Outgames are a bust (which I don't expect), does that mean that GLISA is a failure and so are the games? I think not. How many Gay Games were a financial success? That's right - not too many. However, after a few failed Gay Games, should we say that the FGG and the Gay Games should be dismissed? Not at all. After just ONE try, Outgames made an event that was well recieved, well organized, and will break even or come darn close.

[ August 09, 2006, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]

Okay, this has been interesting discussion and probably will go on for a couple more weeks. Cyd, you're right, you only get to do this once in a while. Case in point, we're not debating Torino or Athens now and Beijing is still 2 years away.

I admire the defense of Canadians of GLISA and Outgames. In their mind neither can do no wrong. It's gotten to the point that their blind defense is numbing.

I guess I need to point out that I appreciate the success of Outgames. It was a better run event and my comments are evidenced throughout this site. There are a few quirks that should have been addressed but overall it was a great event.

That doesn't change my opinion. There can only be one set of games for us to move this along. Many point to Eurogames. That is a regional competition that covers a smaller area than Canada or the US. I admit I need to do some research on them to see how much "success" is really there.

It seems apparent that GLISA supporters realize FGG is not going away and defend the two organization/two game model fiercely. I've made my points why both cannot exist and the G/L sports movement experience continued growth. No one seems to want to address the financial issues. Frankly I would not want these people on my LOC for fear of driving it into the debt-ridden ground. But if they can raise the capital, more power to them. Personally I would like that type of energy working on issues of discrimination and health. But they have their agendas so I'm fine with what they do on their own time.

As stated before I don't care which organization becomes the primary group. Both can serve the purpose adequately. Both do have work to be done within their structure and organization on problems and issues.

For those that support the two game model, I expect you to send teams to both and not gripe about the finances. In other words, put your money where your mouth is. If Texas teams want to go to Gay Games or Outgames, I'll be there with the checkbook. But they only get a check for one.

Hey Ozwald - Yes the Western Cup is a long standing multi sport event that has taken place in Calgary with next year's edition being the 25th anniversary. But to say that next years edition is just the same old thing is somewhat dishonest to say the least. I know for a fact that the organizers of the Western Cup have had numerous meetings with GLISA people over the last couple of years, working together to plan for this event. Much of the GLISA executive was at last year's event to assist with some of the planning for this year's much bigger event.

Previous Western Cups have been 4 or sometimes 5 Sport events. When I was there two years ago it had Curling, Bowling, Badminton and Volleyball, attracting a total of around 500 athletes.

In fact they already have received a huge promotional boost with all the mentions Calgary got during various Outgames events in Montreal, including prominently at the both Ceremonies. It was clear talking to the Calgary athletes that they were excited and happy to be hosting the first NA Outgames. They were running around handing out the postcards promoting their event everywhere! Many people I talked to in Montreal - many who have never heard of the Western Cup - were already talking about going. A number of volleyball players from Toronto certainly were and we did not have one team at the Western Cup the last few years as far as I know.

The sport event is doubling in size from when I was there two years ago, growing from 4 sports to 8. It will be including running, swimming, squash and ice hockey while keeping the four sports I mentioned previously. On top of that they are adding a Cultural component and Human Rights conference component to the event. I believe their goal is to have a participation level somewhere in the 1500 person range. About three times the size of their previous events!

And to me for GLISA this is a PERFECT way to start a regional event for North America. Take a smaller scale event that already has a proven track record. Take its best practices and apply them to a slightly larger event, but don't over reach. It seems the most sensible way to start building a new event. All just more of the smart planning that seems to be GLISA's track record so far as I can tell.

[ August 09, 2006, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Travelpat ]

Now for a little levity. This woman, Jenny, has written me a couple of times, decrying homosexuality and our need to rub it into people's faces etc. But she is at least an avid reader of Outsports, based on her latest spin on why we gays have problems:

"your trying to separate yourself from the society that you want acceptance and tolerance from,and your group is divided one in Canada and one in the USA that is two events out games you call them.,it seems to me you can't even get together in one event why?"

See, even the homophobes are confused!

One quick thought that hasn't come up yet to my knowledge.

The size of a city and the location of its sports venues will have a huge impact on an event.

I've attended Vancouver, New York, Amsterdam, Chicago, and Montreal. I was in Grad School during Sydney and couldn't justify spending $4 grand for a one week trip.

New York and Chicago are tied for my least favorite. Vancouver is in a class by itself as it is my home town. Removing Vancouver (and the Games did take over the City) Amsterdam was the best, followed by Montreal. This is largely because of the atmosphere that was able to be created in a compact city. Montreal would have been the best by far but it was hampered by the American boycott.

I would suggest that future events (and I do hope that both continue, for the reasons that travelpat has outlined) need to consider city size. Mid-sized cities may simply be better suited. Sure Pride in Sao Paulo may attract 2 million people but would a global gay event with 16,000 participants have any impact at all?

Both Cologne and Copenhagen seem like the perfect size. Food for thought.

Don

Would you Canadians give it up on the "American boycott" rhetoric? We'll never get past the issues if you keep spouting that crap. Some people had to make a choice and attend only one game due to finances or time away from work (remember, these aren't professional athletes). The two games were weeks apart and I know I wouldn't have been able to justify that much time away from work if I had attended. If there was a boycott it was those who willingly didn't attend Chicago to protest Bush and the war in Iraq which the organizers of Gay Games had no affiliation with. Talk about misguided boycotts.

That being said, you have an excellent point regarding size of city. One of the key things event organizers consider is whether the event will get swallowed by the city. When we hosted the U.S. Olympic Festival in 1993 we traveled to Los Angeles to visit the 1991 Festival and learn from their experience. The event was poorly attended and didn't have the experience the organizers were trying to create. In San Antonio we made it THE event. Everyone throughout the city had a blast and we turned in the first profitable Olympic Festival in history.

So yes, size matters but in a sense opposite the ways most gays prefer. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[ August 10, 2006, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: RBear78240 ]

Silly post time - atleast this had me chuckling this morning. There are a ton of international people in Toronto this week who are here after being in Montreal for the Outgames. I happen to be wearing one of my lovely new Outgames shirts today and this is what just happened as I stepped out for a coffee.

By way of background at the Closing Ceremonies - during the speeches the phrase - now don't choke Kevin wink - 'Long live the Outgames' was said from the stage and chanted by many athletes on a couple of occassions.

Well - as I walked out from my office in the heart of the gay village this morning with my Outgames shirt on, two guys saw me and one of them gave me a thumbs up and said in broken English 'Long live the Outgames!'. They were from Bulgaria. I got into the coffee shop and about 6 guys from the Netherlands were in there having coffee - and sure enough as I walked by with my Outgames t-shirt - a couple of them look up and smile at me and say - you guessed it - 'Long live the Outgames'.

It had me chuckling anyways.

Pat

People need to stop saying this -- there was no American boycott of Montreal, just as there was no Canadian-European boycott of Chicago. With 2 costly travel events so close together, people had to make a choice. For reasons long chewed over, most Americans chose Chicago, and non-Americans chose Montreal. A variety of factors went into every team's and athlete's decision, but it was not a boycott. I hear this much more from Montreal supporters than Chicago ones, for some reason.

Boycott is probably too harsh of a statement - since I doubt there was an official boycott of Montreal.

However, let's be honest - I am sure that there were large proportions of Canadians who decided not to go to Chicago, as a concious decision to support the Outgames, as there were probably large proportions of Americans who decided not to go to Montreal in order to support the Gay Games. Boycott is probably too harsh, but strategic decisions regarding attendance is probably bang on.

I don't know as there was an American or European boycott of one event over the other, but there are CERTAINLY personal boycotts. In the last day, I've gotten two emails from people saying they will NEVER acknowledge or attend the Outgames. There were certainly some people who attended one or the other based on more "political" reasons. So, was there a "boycott"? That might be one way to describe it. But I don't think it was people of one whole continent boycotting an event as a whole.

I never heard anything about a boycott by anyone of the OutGames and I would have known. We always took the view that explaining why people should come to the Gay Games would increase registration and that saying "don't attend OutGames" was a no-win situation for us.

I did read in 2004 of people encouraging a non-U.S. boycott of the Gay Games because of U.S. policies. Montreal representatives didn't take the same view as us on "positive" vs. "negative" statements on the topic of nationalism.

Examples Cited Here

"In a Sept. 21, 2004, interview with Queersports.org, OutGames Co-President Mark Tewksbury said that, "Europeans seem to prefer Montreal to Chicago for different reasons... Montreal is in Canada and not in the States - no further comment!"

And in a March 2004 La Presse interview, Louise Roy, CEO of Rendez-Vous Montreal (OutGames), dismissed the Gay Games as merely "an American trademark."

However, it would appear, if analysis documented elsewhere on this thread is true, Montreal may have only achieved about 750 additional non-U.S./non-Canadian sports registrants than Chicago (and 25% fewer overall sports registrants) so I don't think their efforts had much effect. In fact, I'd have thought based upon anti-George Bush sentiment that the difference would have been much higher. Maybe our effort to communicate the strong pro-gay message of our Mayor and City had an impact, who knows. I'd put our city up against any other city worldwide - including SF and Amsterdam - as one of the most gay-friendly cities anywhere!

In sum - no boycott of any kind by Gay Games supporters of Montreal, and whatever attempts may have been made by OutGames supporters, it doesn't appear to have been organized nor had any effect.

[ August 10, 2006, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: KevinB ]

I just wanted to publicly thank Jim and Cyd for changing the web page to place focus on the upcoming Gay Softball World Series in Florida. We should be thankful for their high level of participants in a year which sees them competing with the Gay Games and the Outgames. Thankfully, no hurricanes are in the forecast to threaten them.

All of this dialogue on the future of the gay sports movement is important, and should continue, but perhaps it's best to get back to supporting the success of our own sports and associations for now. There will be plenty of official opportunities for dialogue later.

On that note, if you like soccer, the Gay Games Recreational Division gold medalist Boston Strikers are holding their annual social soccer tournament in Provincetown over Columbus Day Weekend. The actual tournament is on Sunday, October 8th. Individuals are welcomed as the teams will be mixed. I'd be happy to provide you with more information.

[ August 10, 2006, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: saxnhoy ]

Right on, Sax.

Although I will get ONE last comment in before I end all my chats with Kevin on the issue.

Kevin - it does appear that no matter what people say, no matter what is done, you will come done as hard as you possibly can on GLISA and the Outgames for anything and everything - and that, appearing from your posts, Gaygames and FGG and do no wrong. The only POSITIVE thing you have to say about Outgames was that as reported - it was a good and successful event, but that everything else about the organization is either corrupt or a failure.

I really wish you could take a more positive attitude toward Outgames. Not to say that you have to be their biggest supporter - but to give credit where credit is due, and to villanize both organizatiosn when it is diserved as well.

Sax - I agree with you 100% about the coverage Cyd and Jim have done for both events. If we could all take such fair and balanced approaches to each of these events with our opinions, I think we'd have a much better understanding of the two organizations.

Rast ... I've tried to keep my comments about OG to a few specific topics, plus answering a few of the comments made when I happen to have some knowledge about factual inaccuracy.

You dismiss my specific comments by accusing me of more general denigration of the OG, pointing out that it was a success so just move on. I've certainly not made any broad comments on the way the OG were managed, marketed, or produced. You've not seen anything negative from me about the way the sports were run, the nature of the Opening Ceremony, etc. I have a great deal of respect for what was accomplished and know from experience how hard staff and volunteers worked.

But you seem to want people to just jump up and say "hurrah - it was a success" and ignore everything else. And when folks like me bring the topics up again, or answer wrong info, you talk about something else or make it personal. Oh well.

I'm not going to let the topics I've talked about just be shunted aside when they are important to me and people are still talking about them. I'm not about to let history be rewritten either.

Kevin,

As usual you're twisting and contorting peoples statements (including mine). Stop pollarizing people into camps.

Please refer to my previous post about praising where praise is diserved and criticing when it is equally diserved.

KevinB and Travelpat, I think it's time both you tone it down a bit. I knew what Kevin's motivation was based on his position with Gay Games Chicago. I have recently found out why we're getting the "over the edge" propaganda from Travelpat since he's on the GLISA Communications committee.

Honestly, you are both spin-meisters for your respective organizations and, as such, your comments are taken with a grain of salt.

Sorry but I don't give too much credence to the spin doctors of organizations since I know their motivations. I appreciate your work and know you have a job to do but I also know how to read through the "information."

Maybe we should have a Travelpat/KevinB dual and see who can spin the most. Just joking guys!

That would be a BATTLE ROYAL!!

Actually RBear:
A delinquent communciation committe member. I signed up at the meeting in September of 2005 with my task to co-ordinate some articles for the GLAA - Gay and Lesbian Athletic Association, but unfortunately I guess i got caught up spending too much time on this board. And then because of my Outgames schedule - I missed any GLISA meetings in Montreal. Bad communications committee member - I know.

It wasn't really ever a concious decision on my part to do these posts as a communications committee member and in fact my posts in support of the Outgames and GLISA pre-date my 2005 Communications Committee sign-up by well over a year. And also to be clear - none of my posts have any kind of official GLISA blessing. I guess if I am ever going to officially post something on behalf of GLISA - I'll try to do what i do when I am posting something officially on behalf of Team Toronto - on which I am a board member - and clearly state that is the purpose of my post.

What is that caveat you always here on TV programs. "Opinions expressed on this program are solely those of the individual and do not reflect those of station management." Well my post should read - "Travelpat's posts are solely his opinion and do not necessarily reflect those of Team toronto, GLISA or its membership. wink

And Kevin's a pussy cat. I just disagree with him a lot. wink

With apolgies to RBear - I will really try to tone it down - after this post - but i just could not let this one slide by.

OK - maybe it is because people can look so tiny when watching on a computer screen - as was the case watching the march in of participants in Chicago during the opening ceremomies which I did on a lap top - where the number of non-North Americans seemed so shockingly small. But if there were not at least 2500 or so more non-North Americans taking part in Montreal compared to Chicago - I would be shocked. Especially having stood for an hour or so among the SEVERAL thousand of Non-North Americans as we awaited entry into Olympic Stadium.

Cyd - you were at both events. Did it appear that there were only 750 more non-North Americans athletes in Montreal than in Chicago? As somebody who spent two hours bouncing all over the infield during the ceremonies probably bumping into and talking to thousands of non-NA's during that time, this is just so laughable!

What - We were told Australia was the biggest non-American entry in Chicago at about 300 or so. We marched in behind the Aussies and there appeared to be well over 500 of them in Montreal. Netherlands - on my screen looked like a group of about 50 in Chicago. Again there was a group of well over 500 in Montreal in all their orange get-ups. The Brits - I did not see them enter in Chicago, but there were hundreds in Montreal - close to 300 from Manchester alone and well over one hundred from London waving their pinkish Union Jacks everywhere. According to one person I talked to from London - a basketball player who had been in Chicago - who was on the same subway car leaving the Opening ceremonies - he said there were 'more than double' from the UK in Montreal compared to Chicago. Germany - what appeared to be a group of close to 600 or so marching into Montreal. I was told 200 and something in Chicago, So again - way more in Montreal!

So just from those 4 countries alone there were something like 1000 more participants in Montreal than in Chicago. And that is not counting any of the over 100 other non-North American countries - many of whom had over 100 athletes in Montreal.

Kevin - I really do have a lot of respect for what you guys did in Chicago - and this post is not in any way meant to be critical of that. It is solely to express my opinion that I am finding it incredible how it is people who were NOT IN Montreal - who to me seem to want to continue to try to warp what happened in Montreal with ridiculous misrepresentations like this. Do they really think they are going to fool anybody. Then again - they did all keep repeating the 'Montreal is only about parties' lie for a couple of years, and apparently managed to fool at least some people by continuously repeating that lie - so who knows.
(And no - Kevin - to your credit - I don't believe you were among those who used that line -so my criticism in that regard is not aimed at you.)

I've really, really tried to just keep my post-Outgames posts all positive - because after taking part in that incredible event - I'm in such an positive space. But at some point you've just got shake your head at some of this, laugh and wonder what absurdities are coming up next.

Enough of that - I'll try to get back to positives with my next post. Rbear - I promise!

[ August 10, 2006, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Travelpat ]

Hey, it's all good. I'm glad you see the humor and jest in my post. Truthfully I'm glad to see someone with passion about this stuff. It will help take things to the next level.

I know we disagree on the one game/two games thing but I know we agree on what it takes to make a quality event. The former will work itself out with time (hopefully). The later will never happen unless people like yourself and KevinB keep working at it.

I think I've pretty much talked myself out on this subject and agree with some others that it's time to focus on other sports topics. I'll still read and listen but, until the next Gay or Out Games ... It's time to focus on my National Champion Texas Longhorns and the next NBA Champion San Antonio Spurs!

You guys keep it up and get this damn thing worked out.

[ August 10, 2006, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: RBear78240 ]

You are so right Pat. The number of Non-NA's was really amazing. I think your numbers are conservative. The sea of Aussies was so huge when we were lining up to enter the Olympic Stadium, there must have been close to 1,000!!
I was so impressed such a great number would come so far, and yet a country like France, who I would have thought would be well represented in their old colony, maybe reached 200.

Okay, okay. I know what I said but I found this and thought it might be somewhat useful. I just wish they had numbers to help satisfy this numbers debate.

arn't perceptions wonderful. as someone who saw the figures for montreal prior to going to the gay games (where it was 288), the number going to OG was a bit less and this included about 50/60 attending the choral festival...maybe specators managed to get on the field.

time i think for thg main players to start to resolve this impass and what is needed is some open mindedness, honesty and a willingness to progress in a peaceful manner the future of gay sport. and let's not forget the bigger picture of which we are just a dot...ie we are not that important in the scheme of things, lest we all disapear up the proverbial.

Jesus Christ people - this is why we wait to see final results (far beyond the ONE WEEK mark of the end of an event).

Seriously, I think everyone is SO silly jumping to conclusions like this. What else is there to say? Calm down and just RELAX! Everyone looks so silly when they jump to conclusions so early. Best to remain silent and look a fool - than to speak and to remove all doubt...

First, congratulations to the organizers in Chicago, Montreal, Barcelona, Berlin, and all the other LGBT multisport games host communities who are accomplishing a great deal this summer. Actually, a quick plug for a friend of mine on the front lines of the LGBT Sports Movement...Berlin's Respect Games are an awesome new outreach project targeted toward LGBT youth and non-LGBT immigrant and minority communities among others:

http://www.berlin.lsvd.de/cms/index.php?op...id=23&Itemid=66

The world actually has more than 15 LGBT multisport events out there and each one has something unique to offer. This year we had two large ones very close on the calendar and it was a strain. And yet, I still find it mildly amusing when people try to pit one event versus another when we should really be celebrating continued growth in the sports movement each and every year. It's absolutely amazing what has been accomplished.

OK, on to my objection...

Cyd Ziegler wrote:

"The FGG has long not only told people what they were going to do, but they try to tell people how to do it (one recent post from a Chicago 2006 organizer even told an Outsports member how he could talk to the FGG!)...The FGG could make it a lot easier for everyone by moving their event by a year (GLISA has already extended this gesture by moving their event one year); but, they won't because, at the end of the day, they're not interested in making life easier for gay athletes...Politics is the sport the FGG plays best."

Cyd, those are some pretty big generalizations there. You cannot really think the FGG has no interest in making life easier for gay athletes, so why would you write that? Have we not improved the lives and the public image of the LGBT community for the past quarter century? Did we not give every athlete a seat at opening ceremonies? If you don't believe me, read your own article from Sydney 2002 where you talk about your wonderful memories:

http://www.outsports.com/ggames02/ggamesTe...m?date=9&page=1

I've got my own beefs with the powers that be at the FGG just as I have with every organization I've ever worked in, but your comments are neither constructive nor fair. You are an experienced journalist and editor with an interest in informing your audience. These comments just do not belong in your article, and I wish you would be more careful in the future.

Rich Williams
Vice President of Membership
Federation of Gay Games

[ August 10, 2006, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: rtwilliams ]

I think that organisers in both Chicago and Montréal all deserve praise for putting together Gay Games and Outgames respectively. Both events, it seems, were very well received and look like breaking even at worst.

As has already been pointed out, GLISA has done it's bit to seperate the two events in future by staging the next Outgames in 2009. Even though the "politics" within FGG say they will not shift Gay Game to 2011 to give a two-year gap between the two events, there is at least a year between them the next time around.

While the FGG does have some international representation, it is percieved around the world as "an American organisation", while GLISA is perceived as having a more international feel to it. Certainly, here in Europe, GLISA is seen as being more sports oriented, working within the normal framework of the international sports bodies.

The fact that Chicago was able to put together a successful Gay Games last month is to their great credit - they had under two years to get everything together. Obviously, the organisers in Chicago were looking over their shoulders to see what their "competitor" Montréal was doing. And this was a good thing as it resulted in what by all reports was a good Gay Games.

Montréal, when they had Gay Games taken away from them by the FGG for what appears to have been "petty reasons", stuck to their guns - as did their commerical backers/sponsors - and decided to continue. They proved the FGG wrong.

History cannot be altered. But we can all learn from history. Both organisations are going ahead with their next event in three and four years time. Ultimately, in international terms, it will be down to the survival of the fitest - the organisation that really cares about participant sports.

The FGG would be well advised to look as the case of the NFL and its realtively disasterous World Leage of American Football. The NFL basicially brought its game to Europe and failed to adapt to the "European way" - It didn't take us long to wise-up to the fact that WLAF was essentialy a "farm system" for American players who fell a little short of the big-time of the NFL.

In other words, the FGG has got to be more receptive to international norms to win the hearts and minds of the rest of the world.

The regular big sporting events in the USA are Super Bowl and baseball's World Series. They only involve American teams - well, I seem to remember Toronto making the World Series on two occasions in the 1990s, and winning on both occasions. But in Europe we have annual competitions in our major sports, football and rugby involving clubs from across the continent - and the same goes for South America, Asia and the southern hemisphere countries.

All these big sporting events - including the Olympics - are for professionals. The beauty of Gay Games and Outgames is that they are essentially for amateurs who don't have to post a qualifying "time" before being allowed to enter.

There is certainly room in this world for both the Gay Games and Outgames - and the obvious way forward is to seperate them by two years. This will give amateur sports men and women the opportunity to come together to compete on the old spoting principles.

The next Outgames and Gay Games are both in Europe. This is wrong, but there is nothing that can be done about that now. For the future, there should be dialogue between GLISA and FGG to make sure that, where possible, events are spread across the globe.

It doesn't SEEM right at all. But, I don't have the numbers in front of me. To be sure, there were lots of Canadians in Montreal. Were there only 750 more non-North Americans in Montreal? Again, it doesn't seem right from what I experienced, but I don't know enough to say it's wrong.

Rich, I'd say you're right, and that was over-stated. I think there is some interest on the FGG in making life easier for gay athletes. Based on their actions, I don't think it's in the top 3; but, there is likely some interest. I'll change the passage to this:

"but, they won't because, at the end of the day, they're more interested in playing the sport they play best - politics - than in making life easier for gay athletes."

That I believe 100%.

I've said over and over again that the Gay Games are fun and people should go. I've never waivered from that. My thoughts leaving Sydney were the same - what a great event. That's DESPITE the FGG, not because of it. What most set the Outgames apart from my two Gay Games experiences was that I felt the organization really ADDED to my experience in Montreal, whereas the great time I had in Sydney and Chicago was because of the athletes, and that we all could have wound up on a track in Boise, Idaho, and we would have enjoyed ourselves.

I soooo hope the FGG and Cologne paid very close attention to what Montreal 2006 did, because they showed us all what these events COULD have been. I went to a party at Gym bar here in New York last night. It was a party celebrating medalists of the Gay Games and Outgames. Several people who went to Chicago came up to me and said, "I heard about Montreal and I so wish I'd gone there instead." People have heard - not just from me or this Web site, but from lots of sources - that what the Outgames did was incredibly special, and that they added to the athletes' experience.

And if you're hinging your success on giving everyone a seat at the opening ceremonies, I encourage you to rethink that. I actually preferred what Montreal did - keeping the athletes on the field, instead of putting them in the stands. It was neat to be able to walk around and chat with people on the field, and to be up close and personal with the stage. It made me feel special. Because they did that, it felt more like the athletes were the focus of the ceremonies. So, did you give everyone a seat? Absolutely. But, that you think that was making life easier for gay athletes makes me more nervous.

Finally, the FGG's assertion that they have changed public image of gay athletes. Logo asked me about the same thing earlier this week, and my response was this. I think the Gay Games has a marginal, if any, impact on what straight people think of us. That gay people get together once every four years is more of an oddity to them, I think, than anything else. I think to the straight world, the local gay sports leagues, that happen all year every year, have much more of an impact. Where I do think the Gay Games change stereotypes is WITHIN the gay community. We still stereotype ourselves as theater queens who listen to Cher and couldn't tell a football from a basketball. I think the Gay Games do affect the gay community a great deal, because the Gay Games are the biggest show in town for the gay community. But, to straight people, Esera Tuaolo coming out of the closet, in one week made more of an impact on the straight world than 25 years of the Gay Games.

[ August 11, 2006, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Cyd at Outsports ]

Kate
I'd be curious to know what your source for Aussie numbers in Montreal was. The reason I ask is that Toronto had a delegation of just over 450 marching into the Olympic Stadium and we were a smaller delegation than the Aussies who were in front of us. And the live stats' that list the city in Australia from which people were registered for each event list registrants from over 300 different towns excluding non-sport disciplines. And if 9 guys on a team are all from Sydney that town name would only show up once on the stats. But I guess I'll just trust what my eyes saw and leave it at that.

I know here in Toronto that 'Team Toronto' had about 225 people 'officially' registered with us for going to Montreal - but I knew way more were going to Montreal. From my own volleyball league alone I knew some 60+ people had not registered with Team Toronto. In the end more than double the 225 that registered with Team Toronto ended up in Montreal. That was a surprise to some of our board members who had assumed that the vast majority of Torontonians going would bother to register with Team Toronto. Most people simply did not let us (Team Toronto) know about them. Conversely for Chicago - as it turned out Team Toronto ended up being aware of almost everyone who ended up there, so we were in fact surprised in the other direction at how small the overall Toronto numbers were in Chicago. Most of us thought there would be more.

[ August 11, 2006, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Travelpat ]

So you think we play politics well? I only wish you were correct in that assumption.

Look, Chicago managed to take the flame and pass it on to Cologne with a great deal of success under extremely difficult circumstances. Sure, give us your constructive criticisms and help us to improve, but please allow us to celebrate the wonderful accomplishments of 2006 without questioning our commitment to community service for LGBT athletes. Your broader point that we don't care about gay athletes is just not constructive, even with the new edits.

We have been peacefully coexisting with myriad single sport, multisport, cultural, political, and Pride events for decades now. Some come and go. Some come and grow. We wish them all well, and we expect the same in return. We know we are not perfect, and we are constantly trying to learn, evolve and improve. We can't be all things to all people and should not try, but no matter how the movement evolves, we will continue to strive to ensure there is always room for the Gay Games.

Again, congratulations one and all for the great successes this year.

[ August 11, 2006, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: rtwilliams ]

Hey Rich - As somebody who had some fun and at times heated discussions with you back on the old schism board - let me just say that the sentiments you express as quoted above - are sentiments that I fully support and agree with.

Pat

I have to disagree with Cyd's comment here: "I think the Gay Games has a marginal, if any, impact on what straight people think of us. That gay people get together once every four years is more of an oddity to them, I think, than anything else. I think to the straight world, the local gay sports leagues, that happen all year every year, have much more of an impact."

I kept a blog on my Gay Games experience and received many responses, but this one from one of my straight girlfriends struck me the most.

"I have to tell you Kevin, I find the press and the PR that the Gaymes do much more impressive, responsible and attractive as a venue than the Pride marches I have been to. The image that the Gaymes projects is a positive one, one that reflects healthy lifestyles and shows the whole person rather than just focusing on ones sexuality. You have taught me alot about this event and frankly, the community would do well to apply the standards of conduct and image that they do for the Gaymes to the marches. The marches that I have been to have been less about pride and more about hedonism, which certainly doesnt help the community right now when so much is at stake.

I hope you dont take that as an anti-gay statement, because I certainly am not. I have gay friends that dont like the way the pride marches are conducted. One minute there are strollers wheeling by with families marching in solidarity with their kids and parents and the other there is a group of men in penis costumes walking down the street. For a community fighting for respect and equal status as citizens, projecting such an image isn't going to compell mainstream society to accept their "lifestyle" very soon. The Gaymes however, seem to project quite a different image, and I am proud of you for your participation. I also have learned alot about how important this event is for human rights throughout the world, which is an aspect I hadn't really pondered before."

I asked Tracy Baim to share this e-mail with the Gay Games organizers, which I hope she did. The Games themselves may not alter people's perceptions of our community, but perhaps if those of us who partake in the Games share our experiences with others, than they can serve as a catalyst for change. Sometimes I think we are our own worst enemy.

The Chicago Tribune actually had a great story on the front page of the Sunday paper after the Opening Ceremonies titled, "Why a Gay Games?" For those who haven't read it, see this link:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...1,3948220.story

I think it the writer does a very good job of portraying the event in a positive light.

Cyd,

Could you please let us know your opinion on something? Do you think there exists a recurring event created by the LGBT community for the LGBT community that has had a greater impact on improving our lives and our public image than the Gay Games? I certainly would be interested to know so that I can consider attending it. Thanks.

[ August 11, 2006, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: rtwilliams ]

You go away for 2 days and you miss so much on this discussion group! I haven't seen it so busy! That's Great!

On the "American boycott" of the Outgames, in my opinion it was Montreal who failed to recruit Americans. Chicago did an amazing job reaching out to gay media in the US. OutQ radio and Logo television were "official partners" and promoted the Chicago games. I saw very little info about Montreal down here in Vermont and we share a border with Quebec!

Montreal could have done a better job than just going to big cities and hosting parties. The bottom line, most athletes don't know anything about the gay games or the outgames. What they hear about is the Chicago games or the Montreal games. I plan to go to Copenhagen and Cologne for the "games". I didn't go to Chicago because they were too close to the Montreal games and Montreal had already established their games in 2006.

As long as the "games" have some time between them I believe they will be successful. Both Cologne and Copenhagen will put on great shows and anytime a city welcomes our community we should be greatful and take them up on their offer.