Hi. I started this topic to see if there is any interest on this board for a Martial Arts Topic?

I study Northern Preying Mantis Kung Fu in Vancouver Canada and go to about 6 open tournaments a year, so have a bit of a clue about other styles.

I suppose potential topics could include:
--Being Out in our training Halls (I am.)
--Martial Arts in Chicago and Montreal for 2006
--Different styles of learning
--Advantages of different styles due to sex or body type
--Effective seminars on self defense for GBLTs who don't want to make a career of martial arts.
--How to diffuse jerks in the dojo without hurting or being hurt by them.
--How Eurogames handles martial artists.
--???????

Anybody out there?

chuck

Chuck - on the Gay Games 2006 chat board you posted the following information:

#####

Subject: MARTIAL ARTS

FYI: I just started a thread in "other sports" re martial arts if anybody reading cares.

It's entirely possible that RVM and GGVII will be offering different choices for martial artists.

GGVII will be offering an tournament wherein most styles who do "forms" or "kata" (choreographed moves to reflect your style) will compete together. The advantage of this is that almost everyone will be allowed to compete. The disadvantage is that it's like asking the judges to decide if they like apples or oranges, when in fact a particular judge may not have ever seen an apple or orange.

This was also to be what RVM was providing. It is possible that now they will only be offering Karate. The advantage is more uniform judging of Karate athletes. The disadvantage is other styles can't compete.

There is so far no change on the RVM web site, but I did notice the word Karate showing up in marketing where Martial Arts used to be. When I asked Josee Genereux (RVM Sports Dir.) about this at the recent Vanc. presentation, she said (something along the lines of -- it was 2 weeks ago --) concerns about sanctioning.

I've got a dialog going with RVM about it, and I suggest that if others have comments, they do the same.

Both Josee and Louise Roy were kind enough to respond to my queries, although the jury is still out.

chuck

##############

One thing to remember is that the Gay Games Sports Program is managed by the FGG through its Red Book, the sports manual provided to bidding cities and Hosts that describes how the sports need to be managed and produced. Montreal began their event with the Red Book but as they are no longer Gay Games Hosts, they are no longer obligated to follow the manual and can make changes based upon things like budget, etc.

The International Gay and Lesbian Martial Artists organization, on the other hand, has a vote at the FGG and has ensured that the Red Book requirements were met by Host Cities. Kathleen Webster, FGG Co-President, was a Martial Arts delegate before being elected co-president.

The Red Book guidelines for Martial Arts are as follows:

###################

MARTIAL ARTS

GOVERNING BODIES
Sanctioned: Sanctioning by any style-specific governing body is exclusive, thus violating the Fundamental Principal of the FGG and will not apply in any Gay Games Martial Arts Tournament and events.

Federation of Gay Games Sports Organization: Martial Arts is currently represented on the FGG and on the FGG Sports Committee by the International Association of Gay and Lesbian Martial Artists (IAGLMA).

Rules: The Gay Games Martial Arts Tournament and events will follow the IAGLMA Martial Arts Tournament and Procedures Operations Plan (IAGLMA Operations Plan) as set out in the Red Book. The Gay Games Martial Arts Tournament and events will be governed by the international multi-style IAGLMA Official Tournament Rules and Procedures (IAGLMA Rules) as set out in the Red Book.

REQUIRED EVENTS
Multi-Style Martial Arts Tournament
Judges Certification Clinic. To ensure that all qualified participants have the opportunity to be certified as tournament officials, Judges Certification Clinics should be held in the years prior to the Gay Games as well as during the Gay Games, immediately prior to the Martial Arts Tournament.
Multi-Style Martial Arts Seminars and Workshops (including both floor styles such as Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, etc. and mat styles such as Judo and Aikido).

DIVISIONS
See IAGLMA Rules, Appendix A for all divisions, which must be offered. All divisions must be published in the Gay Games Pre-Registration and/or the Registration Book.

Rank Equivalents – See IAGLMA Rules, Rule III.3. These Rank Equivalents must be published in the Gay Games Pre-Registration and/or Registration Book.

VENUE
Venue requirements must conform to the IAGLMA Operations Plan and to the FGG Site Selection Venue Questionnaire.

DURATION OF EVENT
At least 4 days, or as long as is necessary to accommodate all Gay Games Martial Arts participants.

DURATION OF EVENT/START OF EVENT
N/A

MAXIMUM NUMBER OF DIVISIONS PER INDIVIDUAL
See IAGLMA Rules, Rules V.2 and V.3.

SAFETY/MEDICAL
At least two (2) properly trained, qualified and credentialed Emergency Medical Technicians (EMTs) or the equivalent must be on-site at the venue for the duration of all Martial Arts events.

################

If you review IAGLMA's website at http://www.iaglma.org/rules.html , you see the various styles of martial arts that are required. You should also know that, in response to your concern about apples and oranges, the Judges Certification Clinics take place in the years preceding the Gay Games so that the Judges are qualified to make assessments about performance. Also - every attempt is made to provide for competition between apples and applies. Part of this will depend upon registration, but certainly different abilities, gender and general type of competition (empty hand, weapons, self-defense, sparring) will receive separate awards.

Chicago's bid presumes that there will be 200 Martial Arts competitors in the 2006 Gay Games. 200 were also projected in Sydney for the 2002 Gay Games, but only 123 ended up being accredited, roughly split evenly between men and women.

The Martial Arts competition is slated for the Physical Education Building at the University of Illinois/Chicago, a state-of-the-art facility at an NCAA Division 1 school (largest US universities are in Division 1 for those who might not be familiar with that designation). The plan allows for 6 regulation sized mats plus room for officials tables at all times. There are sufficient spectator stands as well as showers and locker room facilities.

UIC is in our University Sports Village and other sports taking place in that section of the city (10 to 15 minutes from the Gay Games Hub downtown) are Basketball, Soccer, Swimming and some Tennis. Approximately 2750 athletes will be competing nearby so that Martial Artists will have other sports to watch during off-times.

If you or others in Martial Arts have any other questions, please feel free to email us direction at info@chicagogamesinc.org

Kevin Boyer
Chicago Games, Inc.
ChicagoGamesInc.org

[ March 11, 2004, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: KevinB ]

Kevin, Thanks for your excellent post! I know getting info out IS your job (Communication:good--Ignorance--bad..) but wow, how can you get your other work done? Thanks again.

I forgot about RVM being freed from the constraints of the red book. Eurogames only offers Karate, and if RVM goes that way, I, being a soft stylist, will be seriously bummed out. Sanctioning of Karate only leads the way to further exclusion due to style--Wado Kai, Gyo-ju-ryu, shotokan -- where does the weight lie on which is "correct?" Bummer. Those considering competing at RVM should make their concerns made before a decision is.

The GGVII plan for martial arts looks excellent so far.

I do have personal concerns about IAGLMA itself, since I'm supposed to have been a voting delegate for the last year, and was not asked to vote on anything, nor were my emails to the IAGLMA delegates to the FGG answered. My queries to Membership at IAGLMA also weren't answered, until Kathleen Webster kindly took up the slack and replied that the person who was membership co-ordinator has stepped down (IAGLMA is a VOLUNTEER org, after all) and IAGLMA hopes to be doing an organisational burst soon. Hopefully Sydney 2002 will no longer be a "coming event" on the web site in the near future.

Judges Certification clinics are a good thing for both judges and participants. I attended the one in Sydney, which Kathleen was a big part of, and I can say I thought she ran it very well.

As usual, in divisions where head contact is not allowed and an unblocked pulled punch is supposed to be a point, it wasn't. Judges just don't seem to be able to call those. As a participant, I urge people to go be the guinee pigs for these. It taught me to adapt my fighting style for the next day's competition.

Judges themselves: as with all martial arts except Judo, there is no standardized criteria to attain a black belt, or any other rank for that matter. It is up to an individual's school or federation. Therefore, the judge who got their black belt out of a crackerjack box and attends the certification clinc might well be JUDGING YOU. C'est la vie. Que sera sera. I would say I saw at least one of these at Sydney GGVI. What can you do? Oh, this isn't sour grapes as I have no complaint at all with my medals. All I'm saying is judging will be subjective. Don't take it too seriously when THEY say you win or THEY say you lose.

The other feature of open style tournaments, which Chicago will be one, is that Underbelt Hard and Soft style divisions may be combined, and it's also possible that Hard style judges may be judging soft style competitors, or vice-versa. The more certified judges who have studied a range of styles, the less likely the tournament hosts will be forced to have this happen.

Now, other than Kevin and me, is there anyone else out there? Hello?

Chuck and Kevin, thanks for starting the conversation about Martial Arts. My name is Darl Schaaff, I am the co president of the International Association of Gay and Lesbian Martial Artists. I have been involved since the first Gay Games martial arts tournament in Vancouver BC in 1990. A group of us were so moved by the experience that we organized ourselves to insure that all Gay aand Lesbian Martial Artists would have a place to come, train and experience each other.

I am one of those center ring judges and I couldn't agree more with Chuck's comment that you should accept whatever happens and not take it all to seriously. As a senior official I try my best to be fair and impartial. Our judges trainings are designed to provide examples of styles, judging criteria and hands on experience. We can only hope to train the best judges possible. Some of us including Teresa Galetti, co president of IAGLMA and Kathleen Webster have been part of this from the beginning. We have trained, competed and judged in every Gay Games.

I am excited to announce that the Eurogames have invited IAGLMA to provide rules and tournament assistance at their event in Munich this summer. We also have tournaments in Sydney, workshops in Paris and Philadelphia and naturally we are great supporters and advocates of the Federation of Gay Games.

The IAGLMA website is undergoing a major renovation but almost everything is handled by volunteers including the membership. We ask you to please be patient.


I would welcome more dialoge and questions concerning martial arts and certainly anything about the opportunities provided by IAGLMA and the Gay Games.

Darl, good to hear from you. I hope we can get a good dialog going.

1.) Eurogames: I have been half-heartedly trying to get info on those for months. ONLY Karate is listed on their web site, with no access to info on divisions, etc. Emails to their reps have gone unanswered. If Eurogames is going to be an inclusive-style tournament, under IAGLMA, you better get them to work on getting the word out. A few months ago I was considering going, but times a wasting....and the window might well be shut.

2.) How many members does IAGLMA represent?

3.) It's good to see a restructuring of the web site. Here's to a refreshening of the Org!

4.) Can we assume that IAGLMA will have nothing to do with RVM2006? I know that you, Kathleen, and Teresa are tight with the FGG, to say the least, but I certainly would prefer to see RVM run as an inclusive OPEN-style tournament, and I thought Sydney was very well run.

5.) Here in Vancouver, I know 8 G & L Martial Artists. 7 are Chinese Stylists. My 1 karate friend knows 3 more, all soft stylists. How does that stack up with other cities? Anyone?

Chuck,
Here are the answers to your questions (see above) Eurogames has traditionally held a karate tournament. In 1998 the IAGLMA Board travelled to Berlin to help host Eurogames Martial Arts using our rules. With the success of Sydney, the organizers of the Martial Arts for Eurogames requested IAGLMA to assist. Last summer 5 members of IAGLMA travelled to Munich to participate in Pink Power, a MA training. People came from Finland, France, Germany and other countries. We held a judges clinic and worked with competitors.

IAGLMA is also participating in a training in Paris in May, one in the US in June and we will supply the senior officials and oversight with the Eurogames MA group in Munich in July.

Concerning membership, the last report I read listed a group of over 120 individuals and several MA organizations who are members. The demographics are quite remarkable. The list represents an almost even spread of women and men, ages ranging from 18 to 75, an enormous variety of styles and geographic diversity.These are paying current members and do not represent the total number of people touched by IAGLMA's work.

Concerning RVM, to my knowledge we have not been asked to participate in any way.

IAGLMA is currently expanding our Board of Directors to gear up for Gay Games in Chicago. We encourage people interested in knowing more to contact us.

One of the topics on your original list was self defense for GLTB without spending your life training MA. I would suggest you find a copy of the video series "The Best Defense" a three volume high end self defense instruction made specifically for the GLTB community. There are interviews, questions and answers and it used 8 different MA in the approach. That way it is not just one persons idea of how it should work. The tapes are extremely well made, spent a lot of money on production and getting really good people.

Darl, thanks for the info!

Just an FYI, RVM has still got IAGLMA listed as covering martial arts at the Montreal Games. Which I wish this was the case, if it's not then I'd prefer the correct info was on their web site. Over to you...

Any suggestions on how to get more interest in this thread? Does anyone know of any ongoing gay MA discussions? I hope there are some people monitoring the thread and not posting, but who knows?

Hi, my name is Jim Gardner, Triangle TKD Club-SF. I highly recommend The Best Defense videotapes, as well as attending whatever IAGLMA seminars come along as time goes by. These events are fantastic. The last one I attended was hrm..Memorial Day weekend in San Francisco. In a single weekend, I took seminars in jiu jitsu, hapkido, judo, learned a bo staff form Okinawan style, took a street self-defense seminar, and socialized with a lot of great folks from around the USA. One of the instructors was Master Schaaf. The whole experience was incredibly rewarding.

In San Francisco, our organization is regularly conducting self-defense seminars to a variety of community groups, a service we hope to expand in the near future.

We are also searching for clubs of all styles to affiliate with a national Triangle Martial Arts Association.

http://www.triangletkd.org/

Hey Chuck! I'm glad you started this thread! I'm Vince from Texas. I study the 5 animals system, whip chain and broadsword forms, and practice Water Boxing. I had expressed interest in bodybuilding in another post, but martial arts is my first love. I would love to see a catagory in the Gay games for martial art forms and katas. What I've read in this thread is quite informative!

Hey Vince!

Great to see your post! There IS a Martial Arts category at both the Gay Games and Rendez-Vous Montreal. What Monteal will offer is still a bit in the air, but Chicago for certain will offer empty hand forms, weapons forms, a self-defense category, and point fighting. I went to Sydney and HIGHLY recommend planning to hit one or the other of these games in 2006. The Sydney Gay Games were really fun and martial arts was (I thought) very well run.

Can you tell me what Water Boxing is? I've never heard of it and need some education.

I do Chinese broadsword as well (single and double forms) but have been slacking off in favour of sparring lately. Must rally and focus!

Do you do tournaments? If so, how does the whip chain stack up with the judges? I've got a couple of "flashy" forms for competition. Some of the non-flashy ones are more complicated, but they just don't draw the points. And of course, a few weeks before competition, I sometimes stop focusing on "doing it right" and start on "trying to win." !!!!!

chuck.

Here is a link for a great video chuckvanc:
Water Boxing
here is a link to Master Wai Lun Choi out of Chicago

cheers

Mark

[ April 13, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Swimspeed ]

Chuck and Vince,

Thanks for your interest in the Martial Arts and conversations. The water boxing is great, thanks for the link. Concerning Gay Games in Chicago, IAGLMA is already working with local MAs to insure that the tournament will be inclusive and well organized.
Just returned from a week in Toronto and brought back a great black eye from a sparring match there. Some very good Martial Artsists who are planning to be in Chicago. We are always looking for people to teach at the Games in our workshops, keep us in mind. We request instructor interest about 3 months out so we can plan the schedule.

The Water Boxing demo was fun! Major Internal art!

The link to my club is www.mantiskungfu.com. It's a soft style but not nearly as soft as that! I like that what we learn is very traditional, with a lineage, although without all the traditional social trappings (other than eating a lot of Chinese dinners to give face to this organisation or that...)

I work out in the West End, downtown Vancouver's gay district. But we have always been under-represented by G & L's. Me and one lesbian in the Int/Advanced classes at the moment. The beginners come and go, so who knows?
It's very odd. We're both "out" and totally at home, but there really does seem to be less interest from the gay community.

Hey Chuck,
Sorry I hadn't replied sooner. Since you got info from the other guys I'll tell you about the chain. It is impressive to judges and spectators alike. I would consider the chain a "flashy" form.
I took to the chain easily. As a kid I played "batman" and used a dart tied to kite string to "catch" bad guys and "climb" walls. It wasn't unil I saw my first tournament where a chain was used. My first thought was: i can do that! I'm still on the fence about which gaygames to compete in, but I'm leaning towords Montreal.

One of our guys does a whip chain form as well. Yes, it is a crowd-pleaser! I haven't even attempted any exercises yet. Must focus on the two forms I need for my next level!

As for Chicago or Montreal, I'll probably go to Montreal (I LOVE the city and the people) but 2006 is a full two years away. No need to make any decisions yet.

thanks for the continuing chat on Martial Arts, I really appreciate being reminded that there are some very good G and L MAs out there. If you are interested, IAGLMA will be hosting a "get ready for the Gay Games" training and tournament in Chicago in 2005. We always host a training the year before to help certify judges, introduce our official rules to new competitors and just to get together with old and new friends to train. At this point I am not sure what MA will be offered in Montreal. If it is not officially IAGLMA sponsored it most likely will only be karate, possibly some judo and/or Tae Kwon Do. That eliminates all of the chinese and other non Japanese/Korean styles. This is the usual way competitions are held. IAGLMA is helping with the Eurogames this year becasue the organizers worked with us in Sydney and loved the experience of a multi style tournament. To my knowledge there is no other G and L organization that has rules to govern this type of tournament. The problem is style biased judges who don't understand the various styles competing. You should go where you want but be smart and check the fine print on the registration to be sure that you can compete fairly or even at all.

darl

Darl:

Always good to hear from you. Keep us posted on the pre-GGVII Chicago 2005 event. Also, I'd love an excuse to travel up and down the West Coast, so any info on certification clinics etc. would be great.

Re: Montreal RVM. I sincerely hope they don't go the karate only route as I think it would be a MAJOR mistake (and I personally would be bummed out, as I hope to attend both events.) That being said, Montreal goes into early registration June 1, so between IAGLMA and RVM, ladies and gentlemen, the clock is ticking. Whatever the outcome, I would like to see the CORRECT INFORMATION up on their web site before then. If IAGLMA is out, please ask them to take down the info that says IAGLMA is in.

That being said, it is possible to amend rules from other sanctioning bodies to make somewhat standard divisions. In my neck of the woods, most open tournaments are usually under SKIL and/or NBL rules. They operate much like the IAGLMA rules. The biggest difference I found was no head contact in the underbelt divisions under IAGLMA (and frankly, that was annoying...) There were also divisions for men and women with a disability, and that was awesome.

Anyone monitoring this thread thinking of attending any events in 2006?

chuck.

Chuck and all,

The question of a multistyle tournament is greater than finding some rules that are like the IAGLMA rules. The issue is having judges and competitors trained in these rules and offering clinics and workshops to support the concept. Just having rules without the strong history and involvement of persons who developed and train by them will only be confusing to everyone.

IAGLMA certifies judges, holds judging and competition clinics at all IAGLMA events and spends countless hours and dollars travelling and training to insure the best results for the competitors. This year IAGLMA was asked to help with the Eurogames and several of us travelled to Munich last summer to take part in a Martial Arts training called Pink Power. It was incredible to meet with so many wonderful MAs from all over Europe. Most of our Board will travel this summer to Munich to run the rings, help judge and offer clinics and training. All of the IAGLMA Board travel at their own expense. We do it becasue we believe this is the best way to insure that GLBT Martial Artists of all styles can come together in a safe and fair environment.

Akdar: I agree that it's more than a question of just adopting rules. I suppose I'm spoiled in Vanc., since there is such a committed tournament following here. I think the Tiger Balms are at about year 19 and the Can-Ams (June 4-5) are at the 25th anniversary. Lots of other tournaments come and go for a year, 5 yrs, 10 yrs... Bill Hunter puts on 2 a year. The tournaments are hosted by martial artists and run and supported by their martial arts friends, most of whom have been around forever. It's easy to learn when you've been watching the old hands tournie to tournie, and you're called on to be judge 5 of 5. And when you're just starting, help is always needed and the door is always open. Scorekeepin/time keeping is easy to pick up . You just need enough people who want the experience.

Everybody goes to each other's tournaments here in town. And when a new one starts up, well, for instance, a guy named Sukwinder Manhaus is doing one on Vanc Island for the first time this Sept., but he's been on the circuit , for maybe, ..forever.

It's really good. I've never seen anybody have a problem because I'm gay and out.

I'm in great martial arts city. It's not hard to train judges or co-ordinators, because there's lot of people who've done it the same way before.

I've only had one IAGLMA encounter (Sydney) but I got the same kind of comardarie feeling we have in Vanc. Of course, it's a lot harder to build that through the world...

Still, you can do it from scratch, it's just harder. I thought the pre-tournament training seminar in Sydney was superb. Those who attended got a chance to analyse their judges, and the judges got to become a unit. Nobody wants to be the one to score 6.7 when everyone else is scoring 7.2,7.3, and you all were saying the same thing...! (I think it's often a good system to drop the top and bottem score.


Does anybody else have tournament comments? I just know that going regularly to tournaments has really speeded up my enjoyment and ability to learn.

What IAGLMA offers.I think, is great, but more groups have to throw their hats in the ring and see if the tournament producing thing is for them, and see what types of communities it builds.

chuck

hey gang,

The official word is out . The registration for Montreal is open and it lists only Karate and the rules are the World Karate Federation rules. If you read them they are designed for only karate and very specific as to divisions and who can compete. They have rules that directly affect age, women and nothing about the diabled. If you practice anything except traditional Japanese or Korean Karate you will not be permitted to compete using your martial art. Although they have reported that the tournament will be sanctioned, it is only through a local group and holds no authority in the larger martial arts world.

Chicago has embraced the inclusion and respect provided by IAGLMA rules. There will be trainings for judges and competitors and there will be multistyle divisions that embrace all martial arts, all ages, men and women and welcomes the disabled to join in the cmpetition. As the Co President of the International Association of Gay and Lesbian Martial Artists I encourage you to come to Chicago and experience the power that comes from all of us training and sharing our knowledge. For more information on IAGLMA check out our website

Bummer. Has anyone out there ever participated in a WKF event? Specifically, anyone know how Kumite differs from point fighting? Is it continuous? Full contact? What? Any links to clips of fights? thanks.

chuck.

Hello sports fans:

I was wondering how the martial arts at Eurogames Munich went? Did anyone attend? And what are your memories?

Getting busy for another busy tournament season here in Vancouver. There are 3 (open) competitions in the next 6 weeks, all within 2 hours of here. As for the style-specific ones, who can say how many there are? We're very fortunate.

When I was getting busy for the Sydney Gay Games and told (straight) martial artists at various clubs, the reaction was generally something like "cool. I've got a friend who's going to that in (fill in the blank --- sport ---)."

Hello Chuckvanc:

I am in the martial arts, karate, although after a 5-6 year layoff, I am rusty, very rusty, and to add to that, I started a new karate style, so new katas, new way of kicking, new ways of sparring.

Anyways, just wondering, how you came out to your dojo? Was it an easy transition, or was it jsut put out there? I am just curious, and you do not have to answer if you do not want to.

I have yet to decide if I am going to Chicago or Montreal, and which events I will participate in. Chicago, gets the upper hand, for the simple fact that it is a mixed arts tournament, and I would love to see other styles in action, so to speak.

Good luck in your tournaments.

[ September 03, 2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: rickinto ]

Hi Rick:

Coming out to the dojo, well, let's see. My club works out of a community centre right in the west end, which is the gay area. That being said, gays and lesbians are totally under-represented when measured against the huge G&L population in the neighbourhood. I sort of believe I was never actually "in." I did start with a pride patch on my gym bag, waiting for someone to notice. They didn't.

Then, 12 yrs ago, I moved an hour out of the city and was commuting in to class. Classmates asked "why do you want to live way out there?" And I answered "I met someone and I moved out there to live with him." That's pretty plain isn't it? Apparently not, since years later, I'm getting "Gee, I never knew you were gay comments."

Finally it just sort of filtered through to all the senior students. I'm sure it didn't hurt that by the time they finally clued in, I'd been around so long, it wasn't an issue. That being said, we've had "out" beginners join and it's never been a "thing."

It was SO not a big deal. Of course, my club is right in the gay area, we have at least half female at the beginner level (that changes at the senior levels) and it's a technique oriented "soft" style (preying mantis kung fu). I think the more macho types find the style just isn't for them. It's not the high-intensity workout the testosterone crowd craves. It really is a more cerebral style, and to get good at it takes a significant outlay of time. The homophobic goof type guys never really get a toehold in the class. Long before they can be around long enough to be homophobic, they've had to take corrections/or sparring advice from quite small soft-spoken women, and if they can't cope with that, they're gone in no time.

I don't know your club, but my approach has been to be myself, and become known and liked before they clued in about my sexuality (although I never thought I was hiding it). I think I was honest but subtle, so it filtered through so slowly.

Lately I've been trying to convince the guys I've decided to be straight now, since I want a 900% better chance of getting lucky. They are not buying it.

When sharing rooms at tournaments, my strategy has been to tell the guys that I'm tired of being hit on my straight guys looking for any easy blow job, so just so it's clear, I don't want any funny business from them!! That seems to reassure them they're safe.

I know this might sound lame, but I have always been interested in starting martial arts. However, I would have to be in a beginner's level course and don't want to be in with a bunch of munchkins who will probably learn a lot quicker LOL

My goal is to find some sort of means for both mental and physical combined benefits- I don't know a lot about martial arts in general- I don't need it for self-defense- I want it for a bit of grounding and self-exploration.

Does anybody have any suggestions for an area of martial arts that may help me achieve the above goals as well as is good for older introductory students?

You can email me if you want! Thanks in advance, crew.

Hi Kick:

I thought it was better to reply here rather than emailing, since I'd love to see this thread evolve into a good discussion. I know more people read it than post on it!

Everybody I know has had to do trial and error. That is, start looking in on your local clubs. Ask to watch a class, or do a trial lesson. (My bias is to stay out of clubs where adults and children train together, as kids learn very differently from adults.)

If you can, in your area:
-- look in the phone book, and see what you think of the way the ads are written. There's clues there.
--Get the address of your local martial arts supply store and talk to them, and see who has flyers there.

*****--Go to watch local tournaments (they'll have info at the martial arts store.) What you want to see is multi-style tournaments, since many styles will be represented. I think this is a great way to do your homework. Talk to people there. Are they friendly? Is their ego the size of a house? Which clubs have several students there and not just one star player? Which clubs concentrate on fitness? On fighting? On forms/katas?

And most importantly when you are looking for someplace, who do you like? Who teaches in a way you can learn? Do students help each other? Is it fun? And remember, you can find a place, sign up for 3 months, and if it's not quite right, you go on and try something else.

I know I have a lot of posts here, and giving (probably too many) opinions on questions make me sound like I think I know it all....(I'm not like that, REALLY.) Come on, let's hear from the rest of you!

But I have one more personal piccadillo to add: IF YOU FIND A CLUB WHERE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING THINGS HAPPEN, RUN AWAY!!!!:

--They have a huge joining fee or a lifetime membership. Run away.
--They guarantee advancement on a regular time schedule. People learn at different rates. This is a ploy to keep charging you testing fees. Run away.
--They talk about teaching you "secret" things when you reach certain belt levels. Run away.
--Because their club is so good, or their students so motivated, people get their black belts really fast, say in 3, 2, or 1 years. This is crap (my opinion). Yes, some styles are quicker than others, but an absolute MINIMUM for the MOST HARDWORKING AND TALENTED with the absolute BEST instruction would be more like 4-5 years. If anybody is in such a hurry to get a black belt, they might as well go down to the martial arts store and buy one for $6.99. Run away.

Lastly, some styles focus on different things. It doesn't sound like you'd be interested in Kickboxing, for example. Tae Kwon Do is known for flashy high kicks...how flexible are you? Wushu (ah, it's so gorgeous!) really needs to be learned YOUNG because it's uber-gymnastic.

See what's around (it has to be convenient). I like the Chinese styles, but no one style is "better" than another. There's better teachers, and better-for-me... but it's all individual preferences.

Keep us all posted on your experiences!
chuck

Hello again....

Kick, we were all beginners once, look at me, I am a beginner once again.

I agree with Chuck, look in your area, for Martial arts schools, use the yellow pages, Internet, etc. Approach it the same way that you would approach choosing any school that you want to attend. Look at all the pros and cons, do they offer YOU what you are looking for? Take a few trial classes, most reputable schools offer trial classes.

If you are looking at a martial arts with strong ties to the spiritual side of life, Aikido and Shorinji kempo, are two Japanese martial arts that combine both the physical and mental sides in their training. I am not saying that the other styles do not offer this, I just know that these styles are very zen like in thier approach to training.

Man I just wrote a lot about nothing eh? Well good luck in your search and the hardest thing that you will do in martial arts, is take that first step and join a school... (well the hardest thing, until your first grading just kidding)

Hi rick:

What karate did you learn before and what is the new karate? How did you end up choosing the new one? Was it because of a particular teacher or club you liked, or was it a choice of styles to compliment what you already had?

Also, how much of the old are you finding you have to put aside (for now) to establish the new? Or is that even relevant?

What is it you're discovering?

Does your style of Karate allow you go compete at Montreal? I am major bummed out at their choice of Karate only, but would love to go to Montreal again. If a lot of people I know go, I might just enter Kumite only (first must get WKF rules down...)

chuck.

Hi Kick, to add to what Rick said about the spiritual side of martial arts, I know some Chinese Martial arts instructors also teach Qigong along with their style. It's a kind of health, spiritual, breathing, stretching experience.

see next post

[ September 09, 2004, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: rickinto ]

Chuck, I have answered your questions below, I didn't mean it to come out all bold, but it did, sorry 'bout that.



[ September 09, 2004, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: rickinto ]

I think the shorin ryu is one of the styles eligible to compete. Better check into it though. I believe the under the WKF rules only certain styles and CERTAIN KATAS are permitted. This is definately NOT an open tournament.

Yes, I agree, it would be good for me to experience the kumite under the WKF rules. I do a fair bit of point fighting under the SKIL and NBL. Do you, or anybody, know what the difference is? I did email the karate contact at Montreal, but they never replied.

Also, I'm draggin my feet because instead of just kumite in Montreal, in Chicago I'm eligable for point fighting over 18yrs and over 35yrs, empty hand forms 18+ and 35+, weapons forms, creative forms, and self defence. Big difference on opportunity. But I'd rather be in montreal. And U.S. $$ accomodation is a killer. So. I just continue training and sort it out later.

Hey Chuck and the rest of the gang,

Just returned a few weeks back from the Eurogames. The organizers in Munich Germany included multistyle martial arts. There were a number of people and teams from all over Europe. The largest group came from London. A jujitsu group. Iwas one of the senior officials as my IAGLMA membership and tournament experience have certified me as an international judge.

The best thing was seeing so many wonderful martial artists who had been in Sydney. Many new faces and lots of good competition. Next year IAGLMA is planning a training to "get ready for the Gay Games". We will be helping organize this event in London, probably in July. The IAGLMA Board will be there to certify judges, provide training in the IAGLMA rules and help the local host provide lots of great training and opportunity to the GLBT Martial Artists from all over. IAGLMA is considering another training in the San Francisco Bay area possibly around the end of May.

Each of these trainings is a great opportunity for martial artists of every style to train and share their knowledge. Anyone interested in knowing more should go to the IAGLMA web site.
International Association of Gay and Lesbian Martial Artists.

Could someone please shed some let on why Montreal, has decided to just go with Karate, and not involve the IAGLMA? Or mybe IAGLMA is involved and I have missed that piece of info. I really don't want finger pointing, and all that other stuff, just a straight(no pun intended)answer.

Chuck, I was wondering, what got you invloved in the martial arts in the first place? Also, why the Chinese Style, instead of any other style?

I started in Okinawan style, because it was a great school, I liked the Sensei, very tough, but also, knew that everybody had thier own limitations. Also the Ass't instructors, really knew their stuff, and were there anytime to give advice, help out and really were keen to see you succeed. (also being part Japanese, I was exploring some of my cultural heritage )

PS Welcome back from the Eurogames, Akdar, sounds like things went smoothly over there...

[ September 16, 2004, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: rickinto ]

Rick, my opinion is just an opinion. (And it's all water under the bridge.) Others who know more may choose (or not) to comment.

IAGLMA is VERY well represented on the board of the FGG. A couple of IAGLMA board members are also FGG board members, and IAGLMA also has 2 voting delegates. In fact Kathleen Webster of IAGLMA is the Co-president of the FGG, and the FGG board and the Rendez-vous Montreal board had very different visions for what would have been the Montreal Gay Games. When the split happened neither group seemed interested in pursuing the other (I base this on enquiries I made of both.) Makes sense really.

The OutGames wanted everything to have some form of sanctioning. They're big on that. The martial arts community is so diverse, there really aren't bodies that cover all styles, or even different clubs teaching the same style. (Remember that eternal question of "Why can you get a black belt in 1 yr in Club A but it takes 10 years in Club B?")

Remember the people at Rendez-vous Montreal setting up the divisions weren't martial artists. (People who've known me for 10 years still ask me "how's your karate going?" and no matter how many times I tell them I know nothing about Karate, they still ask about "my Karate".) The layman or laywoman has no idea of the differences. I honestly don't think RVM had the faintest clue about how many registrants they were excluding. (Yes, I did write and tell them...)

But they cared about getting somebody official to sanction the sport.

So they went with the WKF, or the WKF came to them. The WKF are a good size Federation, and are affiliated with Karate Quebec, who I think is somewhat government supported (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) and the government of Quebec is also a big official sponsor ...

Actually, Rick, as I write this it occurs to me you should be asking Rendez-vous Montreal this question. If you do, pass on the answer, please.

As to why I chose Chinese Martial arts, well:

Luck mostly. WIthout knowing anything, I visited several places, and the one I liked looked really cool, and was friendly and I felt I was learning something all the time. As it turned out, I lucked into a teacher who teaches a traditional style in a casual way, and who has direct teacher-student lineage from the founder (at least as far as anyone can claim...things were kind of muddy through the eighteenth century.) So, that's kind of cool. And yes, lineages do kind of fan out, so there are many arms of Seven Star Preying Mantis...

I suppose my chances of fluking into chinese martial arts are much higher than in Toronto. With the railway finishing here, not to mention the gold rushes, we ended up with a lot of Vancouver/China links, not to mention those with Hong Kong.

A fighting soft style has been good for me. I really do think that over the years its tempered some of the more rigid things in my personality. I certainly roll with things more, confront force with force less, and use a lot more deflection and diversion. Or all of that could just be age...

I'm at the point where I'm very interested in other styles as well. I work out with some fabulous point fighters on saturday (mostly hard stylists) and I envy the "explosive power" the best of them have. Still learning...

[ September 16, 2004, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: chuckvanc ]

Rickinto writes:



Could someone please shed some let on why Montreal, has decided to just go with Karate, and not involve the IAGLMA? Or maybe IAGLMA is involved and I have missed that piece of info. I really don't want finger pointing, and all that other stuff, just a straight(no pun intended)answer.




Actually, during the 2+ years Montreal was working with the FGG (plus Equipe Montreal was on the FGG board for over 10 years too), they had access to all the people from the international sport organizations -- including IAGLMA -- and bunches of reports about the history of all the sports in the GGs – and in particular about martial arts. The GGV organizers made the very same mistake about sanctioning and announced a “”karate” tournament for the Amsterdam GGs – for the same reasons Chuck explains in his post – non-martial artists were making decisions about a sport they knew nothing about and didn’t bother to ask martial artists until after-the-fact. IAGLMA was new to the FGG board and didn’t find out until after the decision had been made – so that is when IAGLMA had to get to work to try to fix it. The difference though, is that the Amsterdam organizers listened and learned – their sports people had actual experience with LGBT sport issues and realized right away that they had made a big mistake – that sanctioning is not always a good thing for every sport, especially for LGBT athletes, adult recreational athletes, etc. So Amsterdam had 2 tournaments -- a closed karate tournament (they had already made promises about having a karate tournament so didn’t want to cancel it completely) and an open all-style martial arts event. This wasn’t ideal, of course – all the WKF people could compete in both but non-WKF sanctioned stylists could compete only in the all-style tournament. The GGs, of course, have had all-style inclusive martial arts events ever since.


Akdar Co Pres. IAGLMA

Okay, GLBT martial artists: I've decided we aren't a very talkative bunch. But I do think we respond to direct queries. Therefore:

1.) Does anyone have any links to cool martial arts clips and sites?
2.) A while ago there was a great Stickman Kung Fu animation. Very popular. Anybody have a link where I can download it?

Also, Akdar and IAGLMA, I know some of you are at the Federation of Gay Games AGM in Germany. Anything martial arty to report? Also, any idea how the pre-registration in MA is doing for the Chicago GG?

Hey Chuck...I get the same feeling, but in my defence, I have been real busy with work and stuff.

I did compete in my first tourney, in 6 years, about 2 weeks ago, really messed up my Kata, completely missed a technique, then I punched when I was supposed to do a block.. But in the fighting, I did well, I have another tournament in a month and have started gearing up for it.

As for sites...there is

www.matbattle.com Fetish site for BJJ and Judo
www.karateforums.com Covers a lot of topics in the MA

As for the movie with the stick men, is this it?

http://www.xiaoxiaomovie.com/index02.htm

I hope all is well with you out there in the West.

[ November 11, 2004, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: rickinto ]

Chuck,
Just returned from Germany at the FGG Annual Meeting. Registration is going well for Chicago. Spent the last week in Chicago meeting with the local MA coordinators. I am excited to report that the MA will be great at GGVII.
IAGLMA is planning two events in 2005. In London end of July is Pink Power, MA from all over Europe will be there. And Memorial Day weekend in San Francisco we are hosting a mini tournament and training. We will host lots of workshops and trainings in both locations and training to get ready for GGVII with IAGLMA rules. For more information go to the IAGLMA web site.

akdar, co president IAGLMA

Saw the London Pink Power blurb, but couldn't find anything on the SF mini tournement. That could be a fun excuse for a weekend south. Forgive my ignorance, but when is Memorial Day?

Last weekend in May

May, thanks.

Rick, unfortunately the xiaoxiao won't open for me. Doesn't like my server (!?) Thanks for the sites, though.

Did anybody get the latest correspondence from IAGLMA? I keep getting emails with a header and no attachment, and emails back get no reply. Nor is the info on the web site (that I can find.) Would be interested to know what it said. Anybody know?

chuck.

[ December 27, 2004, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: chuckvanc ]

No.

Regarding Karate in Montreal:

When I go to the WKF site, as linked from the M2006 site, I find NO mention of the Outgames, neither on the home page, nor on the International calendar for 2006. Many other events are mentioned for 2006, but not the Gay and Lesbian Outgames. This is very odd. I can only conclude that the WKF is not comfortable being PUBLICLY and UNIVERSALLY linked to a GBLT event. If my speculation is correct, I wonder, what is the point of having them as a sanctioning body?

It's my hope that both the Gay Games and the Outgames advance the cause of gay and lesbian athletes.

Is anyone on this site affiliated with the WKF and able to speak on this point?

chuck.

Eric Pineault (spelling?) from Montreal got back to me and said the Outgames logo will appear on Karate Quebec's website in 2005, as they are the prime sanctioning body, and that they are very excited about the connection.

Akdar, any more news on the IAGLMA events in London and SF?

I am wondering about the experiences of people getting their black belts or passing other milestones:

Did people find their skills solidifying due to the black belt process? Did people feel they went through a transistion, and if so, how? Did you feel you got your black belt too soon, or were you ready forever? How did your training change? Your mind state? In general, what are your thoughts on getting a black belt?

Okay. For those interested, a new martial arts thread has started over in "other sports."