Guys
Thanks for the comments on the original post. I try to be objective in everything I do. It makes it much easier when I go out on court to referee if you live what you preach.
I heard a lot of reports from other aussies about how different sports were run. I find it hard to comment on them because I didn't see how they were run.
Perhaps I can offer one comment on the Chicago v Montreal debate. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Each had good points, each had bad points. It is just not possible to equate the two events overall. Maybe on a sport by sport basis, you might be able to approximate but I am damned if I know how you accumulate this into a cohesive comparison.
I am now intrigued by the whole debate of FGG v GLISA to get involved with my local team on it's board. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing for the board and/or me. I do however, believe that the whole debate is now too polarised and that it would be appropriate if the people who have been actively involved on both sides declare a truce and step away. This is the only way we will see a speedy repair to the schism.
I am not going to enter the politics in this forum because ultimately it will be speaking to many people who already have their minds made up. I will however offer a few thoughts:
- Successful resolution of conflict is the quickest way for any organisation/person to grow and mature
- The FGG does need to reform. I am glad to see that the process has started. I am not convinced that it can make the changes needed for the brave new world (which is a pity). I will however keep an open mind and assist wherever possible to ensure that this change is effectively managed and developed.
- GLISA has some great ideas on how to facilitate this change but, I think, it has some work to do with implementation.
- The funniest bit about the whole debate is that FGG is a great implementor but not too crash hot on significant reform (yet) and GLISA is great on reform but not a great implementor. Again, using the objectivity that people think I have, a simple obvious solution is available. The ONLY thing standing in the way is the egos. Do we have mature enough people on both sides to work through this?
- There are no right and wrong sides on the debate. There are good and bad ideas. What we need now is a group who can bring everybody together once again with the best ideas available from both organisations.
If anybody wants my opinion about what will eventually happens, my vision is that FGG and GLISA will cease to exist as independent bodies and we will end up with IGLSA (International Gay and Lesbian Sports Association) which will encompass the best of both organisations and the rich history that both organisations currenly have. I have a feeling I might be attending the Gay Out Games in the distnat future. I'm not promising any dates on this but I would have thought maybe 15-20 years might be an expectation. By then, both organsations will probably have run enough games at a loss to ensure they think about merging. It would be great if they could do this ahead of time. (Sorry about my cynicism here but ultimately it is money which seems to run the morality of the debate).
As I said, this is my personal opinion so don't bite my head off. If anybody does bother to attack it on this forum, could I at least ask that you put reasoned sensible argument together. Please be aware that if you do not have this reasoned argument, then do not expect any hope in changing my opinion.
[ August 20, 2006, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: jbal2009 ]
Full Version: RendezVous Montreal 2006
QUOTE
The ONLY thing standing in the way is the egos. Do we have mature enough people on both sides to work through this?
I doubt it. These two groups do not like each other and have shown no desire to work together. Since their events are now in separate years, there is no reason they can't share information and ideas and try to coordinate so both are a success (for starters, the events should be 2 years apart). Don't hold your breath.
Jim
I doubt even that magician guy could hold his breath for 15-20 years
. I'm not even going to try.
I doubt even that magician guy could hold his breath for 15-20 years
. I'm not even going to try.
Okay, I’ve viewed enough uninformed critiques about my writing over the past few years, and would like to respond. Don’t expect much in the way of replies. Writing about sports is my job, and frankly, some opinions aren’t worth additional replies.
Part of the \"All about Yves\" article was clearly stated and noted as my opinion, but backed up by three years of having covered this controversy in several well-researched articles. The majority of that article included comments from participants and Outgames press releases.
It didn’t come as a surprise that some respondents avoided the main points, and jumped to defend the Outgames.
Yes, it was big and fabulous. (As for being "dazzled" by a Cirque du Soleil performance, - the company known for the largest HIV discrimination lawsuit in history, well, "Chaque un a sons gout.")
But also, Outgames had made boastful claims that are now proven untrue. To repeat what they claimed at the time of that writing would not only be disingenuous but incorrect.
Outgames came in fifth in athlete attendance, behind four other Gay Games. Do you think they will ever acknowledge that? No. Outgames continues to pretend it exists on its own, with no acknowledgement of what came before it, and that which they appropriated.
No, I didn’t go to Outgames, despite an Outgames rep’s offer of another free trip to Montreal (as a sort of bribe to insure positive coverage?). When you see gushing praise of the Outgames, ask yourself, or that reporter, if they too got a free trip to Montreal, courtesy of Tourism Montreal. It’s amazing how a little visit to a gay strip club can sway one’s opinion.
Is a reporter supposed to be at every event they write up? That’d be nice, but I don’t even have time to attend most San Francisco events. We have 40+ different sports teams/clubs here, and I rely on assistance from attendees and things called press releases. Most reporters do the same.
Do you jump to conclusions when a reporter quotes people’s experiences at any other event that the reporter didn’t attend? No, just when it critiques an event you might favor. If someone had an extra $3000 to give this writer, I would have been happy to consider the extra trip.
I didn’t go to every sports event in Chicago, because I was busy competing this year. I will interview dozens of athletes for the next few months. Do you have a problem with that? Perhaps only when I critique your event.
Those who claim I’ve "always favored the Gay Games" are quite wrong.
The Bay Area Reporter’s Pride issue featured both Outgames and Gay Games participants, and yes, more about the Games’ history – because it has a history.
I favor LGBT athletes, period. Please read a few other recent articles, which include Outgames particiapnts. That doesn’t mean I have to like any event’s organizers, or take their statements as fact.
In 2001, I wrote about Montreal as the right choice for Gay Games VII, because they had a great proposal. I read all the bid proposals, and wrote about them. I have yet to see those alleged proposals for Outgames II, if any.
Mark Tewksbury had his say immediately after the Nov. 2003 contract sessions in Chicago (and even in a nice feature article about him before that).
My interview with Martina Navratilova includes her support of the Outgames and her critiques of the U.S.
Going further back (I’ve covered four Gay Games), some may recall my expansive articles covering the numerous controversies with Gay Games V, from figure skating medals, to the financial idiocy, to the senior age group crunching in track and swimming. Those aren’t online, but ask any FGG member.
If I have any bias, it’s against condescension toward, and mistreatment of, serious athletes. Only last week, I took CGI’s sports directors to task over the fumbled track meet.
The letter writers complaining about that one Outgames article forget or haven’t read the dozens of articles, both local and syndicated, which include Outgames athletes from Europe, Asia, Canada, and yes, San Francisco.
I don’t expect them, or the majority of critics - most from Montreal, who have not attended Gay Games - to know that.
This is in spite of the fact that an Equipe SF representative refused to answer questions about the appropriation of the name Team San Francisco, and then stupidly posted my home phone number on a few websites. That was covered here on the discussion boards, and in a Sports Complex article (previous link).
My local coverage reflects the perspective of Bay Area athletes; 650 went to GGII as Teams SF members, 50 went to Outgames. The Bay Area Reporter gave Outgames participants more than their proportional share of coverage.
By living in the home of the Gay Games, and having practiced on the very track fields where the first opening ceremonies and track events were held – and with a wrestling club formed for the first Gay Games - I do give a sense of honor to this tradition.
In curating Sporting Life, the world’s first LGBT sports exhibit, that tradition was visualized and has enjoyed record attendance. Thanks again to Outsports for the coverage.
An amusing example of Outgames participant presumption was when, in 2005, an athlete visiting the exhibit and headed to Montreal, asked why I had no examples of Outgames items. I replied, "Because it has yet to occur."
The Gay Games and Outgames are different, most notably in their origins, and that’s why I refuse to suck up to PR spin from GLISA that pretends that it sprung spontaneously out of their heads like Athena from Zeus.
Of course they renovated their website. They had to delete all the boastful (now incorrect) pronouncements and vituperative attacks on the FGG, including falsely claiming to have endorsements from Team New York, IGLFA, and others. Enough!
When you’ve been lied to repeatedly by Mr. Tewksbury, sports director Rachel Corbett, insulted and denigrated by the event’s publicists (Jean-Yves Duthel; what an inspiration!), and when other Outgames supporters have been documented as having spread misinformation about Chicago’s Games to boost their own event, it alters one’s perspective – and one’s coverage.
There are marked differences, and I do not agree that the fault of the split lies evenly on both sides.
That’s because I proved that as early as August 2003, Montreal organizers had already planned their own event. Their lawyer took out a trademark for a gay multi-sport event, and Louise Roy clearly stated that they would have their own event no matter what the contract results.
That makes the too-generalized summations of the split incorrect, if not moot points. Outgames organizers ran off with the redbook, expected to never have to pay for licensing products or logos, realized their upper hand, and took it. The FGG stumbled like a tortoise, but have completed their race with the Quebequois hare.
Kevin Boyer can tell you how persistent I have been in inquiring about Chicago Games’ potential and previous controversies. I still do so. Unlike Outgames reps, I have yet to find any of his published statements to be false.
Duthel even pompously announced that he’d stop sending me press releases, failing to note that they continued to send me unsolicited PR via an email address purloined from the Sydney mailing lists.
In 1982-1986, the Gay Games took on the mainstream (then) antigay USOC establishment.
The Outgames took on gay and lesbian sports founders while tossing a few pointedly ageist comments about the Federation board members.
Since when is experience a bad thing? While I (possibly you) and 13,000 athletes were competing in Amsterdam, Mark Tewksbury was still in the closet.
From the now-embarrassing "cardboard check" incident (covered quite well on Outsports.com), when Tewksbury and other Montreal representatives faked making their first payment toward hosting the seventh Games, to their repeated lifting the Games’ trademarked phrase, "inclusion, participation and personal best," Outgames has mimicked and parroted the Gay Games whenever it chooses, then alternately trashed and derided is 24-year legacy.
At Pride events, and even the 2005 NLGJA conference held in Chicago, Tourism Montreal staff and Outgames reps (hard to tell the difference, as they seem joined at the hip) made false claims of Chicago’s financial and organizational chaos.
And that search result description of Outgames calling itself "the seventh Gay Games" was not fixed, and is their responsibility. It’s not just some "cache file." In fact, it's still online. Google -"gay games" outgames- to see for yourself.
The Montreal group actually expected the quadrennial Games to just get the hell out of their way. This arrogance holds true to the pattern set years ago by the Quebec folk.
You may expect, and, like critics of that one article, even demand respect or gushing praise. You can find plenty of that, biased in the other direction, from Canadian media, straight and gay.
But if you expect regurgitated press releases to be considered fact, go elsewhere for your reading. As a 15-year journalist and novice gay sports historian with more than 600 published sports articles, I should be allowed to express an opinion once in a while. Both Jim and Cyd - and their contributors- do that well here.
Still, many in this community call for us all to "forgive and forget." That would satisfy Outgames supporters, who’d prefer to cover their tracks of three years spent denigrating the decades of sports accomplishment that preceded their success.
From 1980-1982, Tom Waddell himself wrote the BAR sports column I now write. (More on that 35-year history here) I consider that an honor, and not one I take lightly.
No matter what I think or report, both events happened, and are now part of our collective history. It is, to me, the most important – and controversial - moment in this legacy since the first Gay Games.
But before you jump to more comparisons between events, or denigrate those who choose to cover it by alternating between informed opinion and fact, ask yourself how they both began, and why.
As someone who has documented this movement and its legacy, one thing I refuse to do is "forget."
So…
… if you’re in the Bay Area Sept. 7, be sure to come to a special post-Games reception at the Sporting Life exhibit, where a revised display case will honor both Gay Games VII and Outgames I participation, with a full set of medals and memorabilia from both events.
And don’t forget the GLBT Historical Society's 21st annual gala, Sept 28, which will honor both Billie Jean King and Esera Tuaolo.
Thank you.
Jim Provenzano
San Francisco, "an oasis of civilization in the California desert"
[ August 20, 2006, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Sports Complex ]
Part of the \"All about Yves\" article was clearly stated and noted as my opinion, but backed up by three years of having covered this controversy in several well-researched articles. The majority of that article included comments from participants and Outgames press releases.
It didn’t come as a surprise that some respondents avoided the main points, and jumped to defend the Outgames.
Yes, it was big and fabulous. (As for being "dazzled" by a Cirque du Soleil performance, - the company known for the largest HIV discrimination lawsuit in history, well, "Chaque un a sons gout.")
But also, Outgames had made boastful claims that are now proven untrue. To repeat what they claimed at the time of that writing would not only be disingenuous but incorrect.
Outgames came in fifth in athlete attendance, behind four other Gay Games. Do you think they will ever acknowledge that? No. Outgames continues to pretend it exists on its own, with no acknowledgement of what came before it, and that which they appropriated.
No, I didn’t go to Outgames, despite an Outgames rep’s offer of another free trip to Montreal (as a sort of bribe to insure positive coverage?). When you see gushing praise of the Outgames, ask yourself, or that reporter, if they too got a free trip to Montreal, courtesy of Tourism Montreal. It’s amazing how a little visit to a gay strip club can sway one’s opinion.
Is a reporter supposed to be at every event they write up? That’d be nice, but I don’t even have time to attend most San Francisco events. We have 40+ different sports teams/clubs here, and I rely on assistance from attendees and things called press releases. Most reporters do the same.
Do you jump to conclusions when a reporter quotes people’s experiences at any other event that the reporter didn’t attend? No, just when it critiques an event you might favor. If someone had an extra $3000 to give this writer, I would have been happy to consider the extra trip.
I didn’t go to every sports event in Chicago, because I was busy competing this year. I will interview dozens of athletes for the next few months. Do you have a problem with that? Perhaps only when I critique your event.
Those who claim I’ve "always favored the Gay Games" are quite wrong.
The Bay Area Reporter’s Pride issue featured both Outgames and Gay Games participants, and yes, more about the Games’ history – because it has a history.
I favor LGBT athletes, period. Please read a few other recent articles, which include Outgames particiapnts. That doesn’t mean I have to like any event’s organizers, or take their statements as fact.
In 2001, I wrote about Montreal as the right choice for Gay Games VII, because they had a great proposal. I read all the bid proposals, and wrote about them. I have yet to see those alleged proposals for Outgames II, if any.
Mark Tewksbury had his say immediately after the Nov. 2003 contract sessions in Chicago (and even in a nice feature article about him before that).
My interview with Martina Navratilova includes her support of the Outgames and her critiques of the U.S.
Going further back (I’ve covered four Gay Games), some may recall my expansive articles covering the numerous controversies with Gay Games V, from figure skating medals, to the financial idiocy, to the senior age group crunching in track and swimming. Those aren’t online, but ask any FGG member.
If I have any bias, it’s against condescension toward, and mistreatment of, serious athletes. Only last week, I took CGI’s sports directors to task over the fumbled track meet.
The letter writers complaining about that one Outgames article forget or haven’t read the dozens of articles, both local and syndicated, which include Outgames athletes from Europe, Asia, Canada, and yes, San Francisco.
I don’t expect them, or the majority of critics - most from Montreal, who have not attended Gay Games - to know that.
This is in spite of the fact that an Equipe SF representative refused to answer questions about the appropriation of the name Team San Francisco, and then stupidly posted my home phone number on a few websites. That was covered here on the discussion boards, and in a Sports Complex article (previous link).
My local coverage reflects the perspective of Bay Area athletes; 650 went to GGII as Teams SF members, 50 went to Outgames. The Bay Area Reporter gave Outgames participants more than their proportional share of coverage.
By living in the home of the Gay Games, and having practiced on the very track fields where the first opening ceremonies and track events were held – and with a wrestling club formed for the first Gay Games - I do give a sense of honor to this tradition.
In curating Sporting Life, the world’s first LGBT sports exhibit, that tradition was visualized and has enjoyed record attendance. Thanks again to Outsports for the coverage.
An amusing example of Outgames participant presumption was when, in 2005, an athlete visiting the exhibit and headed to Montreal, asked why I had no examples of Outgames items. I replied, "Because it has yet to occur."
The Gay Games and Outgames are different, most notably in their origins, and that’s why I refuse to suck up to PR spin from GLISA that pretends that it sprung spontaneously out of their heads like Athena from Zeus.
Of course they renovated their website. They had to delete all the boastful (now incorrect) pronouncements and vituperative attacks on the FGG, including falsely claiming to have endorsements from Team New York, IGLFA, and others. Enough!
When you’ve been lied to repeatedly by Mr. Tewksbury, sports director Rachel Corbett, insulted and denigrated by the event’s publicists (Jean-Yves Duthel; what an inspiration!), and when other Outgames supporters have been documented as having spread misinformation about Chicago’s Games to boost their own event, it alters one’s perspective – and one’s coverage.
There are marked differences, and I do not agree that the fault of the split lies evenly on both sides.
That’s because I proved that as early as August 2003, Montreal organizers had already planned their own event. Their lawyer took out a trademark for a gay multi-sport event, and Louise Roy clearly stated that they would have their own event no matter what the contract results.
That makes the too-generalized summations of the split incorrect, if not moot points. Outgames organizers ran off with the redbook, expected to never have to pay for licensing products or logos, realized their upper hand, and took it. The FGG stumbled like a tortoise, but have completed their race with the Quebequois hare.
Kevin Boyer can tell you how persistent I have been in inquiring about Chicago Games’ potential and previous controversies. I still do so. Unlike Outgames reps, I have yet to find any of his published statements to be false.
Duthel even pompously announced that he’d stop sending me press releases, failing to note that they continued to send me unsolicited PR via an email address purloined from the Sydney mailing lists.
In 1982-1986, the Gay Games took on the mainstream (then) antigay USOC establishment.
The Outgames took on gay and lesbian sports founders while tossing a few pointedly ageist comments about the Federation board members.
Since when is experience a bad thing? While I (possibly you) and 13,000 athletes were competing in Amsterdam, Mark Tewksbury was still in the closet.
From the now-embarrassing "cardboard check" incident (covered quite well on Outsports.com), when Tewksbury and other Montreal representatives faked making their first payment toward hosting the seventh Games, to their repeated lifting the Games’ trademarked phrase, "inclusion, participation and personal best," Outgames has mimicked and parroted the Gay Games whenever it chooses, then alternately trashed and derided is 24-year legacy.
At Pride events, and even the 2005 NLGJA conference held in Chicago, Tourism Montreal staff and Outgames reps (hard to tell the difference, as they seem joined at the hip) made false claims of Chicago’s financial and organizational chaos.
And that search result description of Outgames calling itself "the seventh Gay Games" was not fixed, and is their responsibility. It’s not just some "cache file." In fact, it's still online. Google -"gay games" outgames- to see for yourself.
The Montreal group actually expected the quadrennial Games to just get the hell out of their way. This arrogance holds true to the pattern set years ago by the Quebec folk.
You may expect, and, like critics of that one article, even demand respect or gushing praise. You can find plenty of that, biased in the other direction, from Canadian media, straight and gay.
But if you expect regurgitated press releases to be considered fact, go elsewhere for your reading. As a 15-year journalist and novice gay sports historian with more than 600 published sports articles, I should be allowed to express an opinion once in a while. Both Jim and Cyd - and their contributors- do that well here.
Still, many in this community call for us all to "forgive and forget." That would satisfy Outgames supporters, who’d prefer to cover their tracks of three years spent denigrating the decades of sports accomplishment that preceded their success.
From 1980-1982, Tom Waddell himself wrote the BAR sports column I now write. (More on that 35-year history here) I consider that an honor, and not one I take lightly.
No matter what I think or report, both events happened, and are now part of our collective history. It is, to me, the most important – and controversial - moment in this legacy since the first Gay Games.
But before you jump to more comparisons between events, or denigrate those who choose to cover it by alternating between informed opinion and fact, ask yourself how they both began, and why.
As someone who has documented this movement and its legacy, one thing I refuse to do is "forget."
So…
… if you’re in the Bay Area Sept. 7, be sure to come to a special post-Games reception at the Sporting Life exhibit, where a revised display case will honor both Gay Games VII and Outgames I participation, with a full set of medals and memorabilia from both events.
And don’t forget the GLBT Historical Society's 21st annual gala, Sept 28, which will honor both Billie Jean King and Esera Tuaolo.
Thank you.
Jim Provenzano
San Francisco, "an oasis of civilization in the California desert"
[ August 20, 2006, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Sports Complex ]
QUOTE
Sports Complex:
Okay, I’ve viewed enough uninformed critiques about my writing over the past few years, and would like to respond. Don’t expect much in the way of replies. Writing about sports is my job, and frankly, some of your opinions aren’t even worth additional replies.
And then you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on, until finally:Okay, I’ve viewed enough uninformed critiques about my writing over the past few years, and would like to respond. Don’t expect much in the way of replies. Writing about sports is my job, and frankly, some of your opinions aren’t even worth additional replies.
QUOTE
As a 15-year journalist and novice gay sports historian with more than 600 published sports articles, I should be allowed to express an opinion once in a while.
Seeing as you feel many others' opinions aren't worthy, why should anyone give a damn what YOU think?
I have read Jim's articles over the years with interest. As with all things, I don't necessarily agree with everything written down, but I do respect the guy for his accuracy on fact.
Jim's own views again were interesting to read and I for one, would NEVER criticize in such an inflammatory way. To be insulting to a person's prefessionalism is just not on. If somebody ever insulted my professionalism as a referee on a basketball court, they would be out of the game (and certainly in my country, due for a long holiday courtesy of the tribunal). I can accept people not liking my decisions because ultimately it is my opinion of what happened. I do not tolerate people who want me to go against the facts (i.e the rules).
Jim - keep up the good work. I might not agree, but I do like to hear reasoned argument.
Jim's own views again were interesting to read and I for one, would NEVER criticize in such an inflammatory way. To be insulting to a person's prefessionalism is just not on. If somebody ever insulted my professionalism as a referee on a basketball court, they would be out of the game (and certainly in my country, due for a long holiday courtesy of the tribunal). I can accept people not liking my decisions because ultimately it is my opinion of what happened. I do not tolerate people who want me to go against the facts (i.e the rules).
Jim - keep up the good work. I might not agree, but I do like to hear reasoned argument.
Thanks Jim P. for that great summary piece you posted. we needed another voice of reality here in this forum.
Meow! Saucer of milk for Jim! Although accurate review of facts is always good, I can't help but feel the personal anger coming out in that... you'd swear GLISA themselves came and killed his family or something...
Jball - It's nice that you threw a compliment Jim's way but to be honest, I really have to commend you on your very well balanced commentaries. Maybe you should consider a career in journalism?? Seriously, although I lack a good foundation of sporting knowledge and did not attend the Chicago games, it does appear that you take a critical position of both sides - giving pros and cons to each event, in a very dignified way.
I look forward to more of your comments Jim, as you provide insight in a way that many of us can't - either because of a lack of experience (only attending one - or NO games), or knowledge (your sporting experience).
Jball - It's nice that you threw a compliment Jim's way but to be honest, I really have to commend you on your very well balanced commentaries. Maybe you should consider a career in journalism??
Seriously, although I lack a good foundation of sporting knowledge and did not attend the Chicago games, it does appear that you take a critical position of both sides - giving pros and cons to each event, in a very dignified way.I look forward to more of your comments Jim, as you provide insight in a way that many of us can't - either because of a lack of experience (only attending one - or NO games), or knowledge (your sporting experience).
Jim Provenzano is an oasis in a sea of mediocrity. We are not worthy to kiss his sneakers.
HA! I couldn't agree more But last time I pointed this fact out to him (in much more polite terms than I am now, I was rebuffed with a rather nasty comment about Canadians - which kind of told volumes about his professionalism).
Actually - these were my comments to him
"If you were repeatedly lied to, then write about that (as you have). I have no problems with that. But be professional. I would expect that readers have higher expectations than a high school newspaper. If you've been lied to, and have evidence - this makes a GREAT story and one that I would greatly enjoy reading about, but childish comments as those in the article I made first reference to, are simply beneath a good reporter."
To which I was met with:
"little petulant Canuck, exactly the sort of twit I critiqued in the article.
You wholly embody my well-deserved critique, and the "sports" event you defend is a fraud.
Your condescending "instructions" can be shoved up your ass.
How's that for professionalism, little maple leaf shit?"
Please hold in mind that this correspondance took place through his professional work e-mail - the one listed as his contact from the paper in San Fran. I really do question his ability to tackle the issue objectively.
Regardless, he makes valuable points, but sadly is unable to look at both sides of the coin - and in an objective fashion, which in my eyes is a rather important characteristic of journalism.
That's why I support Jball in ANY attempts at becomming a professional in journalism
Perhaps this issue would be better placed under a new discussion as "media coverage of gay sports". It kinda seems out of place here - but that could be just my impression - or better yet, just through personal e-mails?
If this is not the place for the discusion, please let me know.
[ August 21, 2006, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
But last time I pointed this fact out to him (in much more polite terms than I am now, I was rebuffed with a rather nasty comment about Canadians - which kind of told volumes about his professionalism).Actually - these were my comments to him
"If you were repeatedly lied to, then write about that (as you have). I have no problems with that. But be professional. I would expect that readers have higher expectations than a high school newspaper. If you've been lied to, and have evidence - this makes a GREAT story and one that I would greatly enjoy reading about, but childish comments as those in the article I made first reference to, are simply beneath a good reporter."
To which I was met with:
"little petulant Canuck, exactly the sort of twit I critiqued in the article.
You wholly embody my well-deserved critique, and the "sports" event you defend is a fraud.
Your condescending "instructions" can be shoved up your ass.
How's that for professionalism, little maple leaf shit?"
Please hold in mind that this correspondance took place through his professional work e-mail - the one listed as his contact from the paper in San Fran. I really do question his ability to tackle the issue objectively.
Regardless, he makes valuable points, but sadly is unable to look at both sides of the coin - and in an objective fashion, which in my eyes is a rather important characteristic of journalism.
That's why I support Jball in ANY attempts at becomming a professional in journalism
Perhaps this issue would be better placed under a new discussion as "media coverage of gay sports". It kinda seems out of place here - but that could be just my impression - or better yet, just through personal e-mails?
If this is not the place for the discusion, please let me know.
[ August 21, 2006, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
This is ridiculous.
That was a private email sent to you after four of your pedantic and harassing unsolicited emails, Christopher, aka Rast.
I did not respond to you in that way at first.
Of course, I should have known to expect such unscrupulous behavior from my new stalker.
I strongly suggest you remove what was a private communication. i am going to ask the moderator to do so.
But of course I should have known better, considering how Outgames sycophants like you behave.
That was a private email sent to you after four of your pedantic and harassing unsolicited emails, Christopher, aka Rast.
I did not respond to you in that way at first.
Of course, I should have known to expect such unscrupulous behavior from my new stalker.
I strongly suggest you remove what was a private communication. i am going to ask the moderator to do so.
But of course I should have known better, considering how Outgames sycophants like you behave.
I don't blame you for wanting my post deleted, since it shows you in a somewhat bad light - especially your blatent agression towards Canadians and anyone who tries to show you how your "reporting" is unreliable and biased (or more likely those Canadians responsible for forming GLISA and the Outgames - which BTW, I have NO affiliation with either, other than I attended the Outgames. I wish I had attended the Gaygames as well - but one only has so much money...)
Interesting perspective... but I might say that this was in NO way private correspondance, as I indicated - those e-mails were sent through your contact e-mail, provided from your San Fran. newspaper. Also remember Jim, that ANYTHING you write in an e-mail is NOT private, especially when it's communicated to your WORK account - and cc'd to your BOSS. How you percieved this to be a "one on one e-mail" is beyond me, since it was entirely related to your job.
In addition, all of our correspondance was cc'd to your editor (or what ever their title is at your paper), to ensure that your newspaper was familiar with the issues I had with your journalism. Your anti-Canadian rant was also CC'd to the same people.
In NO way was this private correspondance.
All these commentaries are in direct relationship to perceptions of your ability to report honestly on these sporting events. I find it interesting that you want to silence these remarks - but not at all suprising.
If you feel that you've been presented in an unflatering way, I will glady provide the ENTIRE conversation (all three e-mail exchanges - hardly stalking behaviour). However, none of your correspondance displays you in a better light. Regardless, if you wish - that correspondance can be provided.
Interesting spin you seem to put on things, Jim. However, this is best suited to a private e-mail discussion. I would assume that all this dialogue will be removed from this - from the both of us - as it is more of a personal nature, than a critique of the games.
Overall, I have to say that I would prefer us to focus more on the celebration of two successful events (rather than having you polarize people into two camps of either Gay or Outgame supporters) - and critiqing when necessary in order to improve the quality of these events, rather than simply providing banter to ridicule one with no productive goal in mind.
We have the potential to build on great things here. I rather move ahead and celebrate our successes. I hope that you can join us in the celebration.
[ August 22, 2006, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
Interesting perspective... but I might say that this was in NO way private correspondance, as I indicated - those e-mails were sent through your contact e-mail, provided from your San Fran. newspaper. Also remember Jim, that ANYTHING you write in an e-mail is NOT private, especially when it's communicated to your WORK account - and cc'd to your BOSS. How you percieved this to be a "one on one e-mail" is beyond me, since it was entirely related to your job.
In addition, all of our correspondance was cc'd to your editor (or what ever their title is at your paper), to ensure that your newspaper was familiar with the issues I had with your journalism. Your anti-Canadian rant was also CC'd to the same people.
In NO way was this private correspondance.
All these commentaries are in direct relationship to perceptions of your ability to report honestly on these sporting events. I find it interesting that you want to silence these remarks - but not at all suprising.
If you feel that you've been presented in an unflatering way, I will glady provide the ENTIRE conversation (all three e-mail exchanges - hardly stalking behaviour). However, none of your correspondance displays you in a better light. Regardless, if you wish - that correspondance can be provided.
Interesting spin you seem to put on things, Jim. However, this is best suited to a private e-mail discussion. I would assume that all this dialogue will be removed from this - from the both of us - as it is more of a personal nature, than a critique of the games.
Overall, I have to say that I would prefer us to focus more on the celebration of two successful events (rather than having you polarize people into two camps of either Gay or Outgame supporters) - and critiqing when necessary in order to improve the quality of these events, rather than simply providing banter to ridicule one with no productive goal in mind.
We have the potential to build on great things here. I rather move ahead and celebrate our successes. I hope that you can join us in the celebration.
[ August 22, 2006, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
Typical of pedantic Outgames supporters, you've swerved off into appropriated comments, made smug personal attacks, and refuse to focus the more important issues about the event itself; how and why it started.
Even quoted personal attacks are not appropriate to this board, if you had ever bothered to read the guidelines amid your sociopathic self-absorbtion.
This thread is about the Outgames, not about you, your relentless vitriol, nor my replies to your relentless and condescending scolding.
Can one expect an ounce of impartial perspective from you, ever? Your pro-Outgames slant is blatant and relentless.
BTW, my editor found your blather laughable at best.
You have a great future as Jean-Yves Duthel's replacement as Outgames II's publicist!
Even quoted personal attacks are not appropriate to this board, if you had ever bothered to read the guidelines amid your sociopathic self-absorbtion.
This thread is about the Outgames, not about you, your relentless vitriol, nor my replies to your relentless and condescending scolding.
Can one expect an ounce of impartial perspective from you, ever? Your pro-Outgames slant is blatant and relentless.
BTW, my editor found your blather laughable at best.
You have a great future as Jean-Yves Duthel's replacement as Outgames II's publicist!
Jim - you said "Don’t expect much in the way of replies. Writing about sports is my job, and frankly, some opinions aren’t worth additional replies." Thanks for making my comments 'worthy' enough of reply You proved my points well while I simply had to do nothing but let you type...
Now, moving on...
[ August 22, 2006, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
You proved my points well while I simply had to do nothing but let you type...Now, moving on...
[ August 22, 2006, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
Richard Burnett, a decidely pro-Outgames columnist for The Hour.ca, has repeatedly made false and nasty statements about the FGG and Chicago's Gay Games VII, in this and previous articles.
However, before anyone takes relief in his being an antidote to my POV, consider that such a Canadian journalist, decidedly biased toward the Outgames, would write in this column:
"Montreal 2006 organizers also deserve blame for selling Outgames souvenirs and T-shirts made in such anti-gay countries as Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Guatemala. And, to make room for the popular Athlete's Village, they had the homeless booted from Square Viger, scandalously echoing Mayor Jean Drapeau's tactics against gay establishments when he "cleaned up" downtown Montreal on the eve of the 1976 Olympics.
Montreal 2006 also ran one of the most useless and arrogant media relations departments I've ever had the misfortune of working with - including charging working journalists $75 each to attend keynote LGBT conference speeches by Navratilova and UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour.
While Montreal media widely despised how the Outgames press room was run, none covered the Outgames in their sports sections or sports broadcasts..."
Why not aim your schoolmarm smugness toward this guy, Christopher? I've had more than enough from you.
However, before anyone takes relief in his being an antidote to my POV, consider that such a Canadian journalist, decidedly biased toward the Outgames, would write in this column:
"Montreal 2006 organizers also deserve blame for selling Outgames souvenirs and T-shirts made in such anti-gay countries as Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Guatemala. And, to make room for the popular Athlete's Village, they had the homeless booted from Square Viger, scandalously echoing Mayor Jean Drapeau's tactics against gay establishments when he "cleaned up" downtown Montreal on the eve of the 1976 Olympics.
Montreal 2006 also ran one of the most useless and arrogant media relations departments I've ever had the misfortune of working with - including charging working journalists $75 each to attend keynote LGBT conference speeches by Navratilova and UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour.
While Montreal media widely despised how the Outgames press room was run, none covered the Outgames in their sports sections or sports broadcasts..."
Why not aim your schoolmarm smugness toward this guy, Christopher? I've had more than enough from you.
More than enough of each other, I am SURE Jim... that's why I am trying to MOVE IT ON... Anyone have something interesting to say aside from the banter between Jim and I?
Anyone have something interesting to say aside from the banter between Jim and I?
That quote from Richard Burnett is hysterical! I found the Montreal PR department to be totally accomodating, friendly and informative. They fulfilled every request of mine, even jumping through hoops a couple times to get things done. "Useless and arrogant"? That certainly wasn't my experience with them.
Jim, you need to chill out dude. The Toronto Maple Leafs waant to have a word with you (with their sticks).
Receiving threats of violence, even facetious, are part and parcel of being outspoken and published, but not appreciated.
Outgames supporters may swoop down with their ranting verbiage. It only proves my point: avoid the facts, and attack the messenger. That's the Outgames playbook.
Meanwhile, others think differently than the vituperative Christopher Rastin. Some examples are posted.
These are published letters to the editor, not private emails. Anyone with a basic sense of manners knows the difference.
Embarrassed over split
As someone who has been depressed and embarrassed about the gay community ever since I heard about the Outgames split over money and power, the past week has been tough for me. I've always been so proud and impressed by the world coming together at the Gay Games; it almost makes me cry that 20-30 angry, bitchy people (on both sides) couldn't hold the community together. I don't know who did what, but I know the result. We are divided. And for that I don't know where to begin to find the ability to forgive them.
Thank you for Jim Provenzano's column ["Outgames a go," Sports Complex, August 3]. I have friends who chose to attend the Outgames, so I was glad to hear that they got to go to fun parties and mingle with cute gays from around the world. But good for Provenzano for not letting the world off the hook for this shameful, embarrassing moment in gay pride history.
Dan Dyer
San Francisco
Candid column
'Twas great to encounter such a candid and straightforward column, unimpeded by the filter of political correctness, on the Montreal Outgames; along with the accompanying allusions to the years of low-integrity, malicious personal/political history that inspired the split in the global sports movement and has fueled the formation of GLISA and the production and promotion of the Outgames "movement." Time and again, the Outgames organization has exhibited, through action and word, the destructive nature and foundation of their mission. To read references to what has lain beneath the surface for so long, and – in remaining un-articulated – been given tacit approval from our own (and by "our," I mean LGBT) press and media, is simply refreshing as well as entertainingly offered.
Thank you for having the courage and integrity to print this Mr. Provenzano's point of view. More of this, please.
Kile Ozier
New York, New York
[Editor's note: The writer was director of ceremonies at Gay Games VII.]
Wishes Outgames the best, but...
I am moved to write Jim Provenzano about his recent column entitled "Outgames a go." It is so rewarding to me to finally hear someone else speak the truth about what had occurred between the Federation of Gay Games and Outgames. The Outgames have done such an amazing job of hiding the truth of their own actions to the international sports world that they should award themselves a gold medal. As many times as I have tried to speak the truth to others, it does my heart good to hear it from Mr. Provenzano.
It was also nice to hear about how things ran up in Montreal since at this point I have heard very little. I honestly wish them the best in creating another international sporting event in the hopes of spreading the gay sports movement even more throughout the world.
Thank you for speaking out with the truth. It is honestly appreciated by your readers. I for one will certainly pay closer attention to your column and the B.A.R. as a worthwhile community-based newspaper.
Nelson W. Luesse
Oakland, California
More on Outgames
Great piece on the "Outhouse Games" in the August 3 B.A.R. I've been out of San Francisco for the past two years so I haven't kept abreast of Jim Provenzano's ongoing reporting of the despicable, unethical manner in which the Montreal organizers behaved prior to the split with the Federation of Gay Games. I was, however, aptly informed of the events leading up to it. I really appreciate that Mr. Provenzano did not take the easy, politically correct path of welcoming the Outgames with open arms and playing forgive and forget. While carrying a grudge is normally not good for any of us, accurate, fair reporting of the facts is critical. I believe Mr. Provenzano has accomplished that very thing.
Thank you for your forthright coverage of the topic.
Chuck Vrana
Omaha, Nebraska
Outgames supporters may swoop down with their ranting verbiage. It only proves my point: avoid the facts, and attack the messenger. That's the Outgames playbook.
Meanwhile, others think differently than the vituperative Christopher Rastin. Some examples are posted.
These are published letters to the editor, not private emails. Anyone with a basic sense of manners knows the difference.
Embarrassed over split
As someone who has been depressed and embarrassed about the gay community ever since I heard about the Outgames split over money and power, the past week has been tough for me. I've always been so proud and impressed by the world coming together at the Gay Games; it almost makes me cry that 20-30 angry, bitchy people (on both sides) couldn't hold the community together. I don't know who did what, but I know the result. We are divided. And for that I don't know where to begin to find the ability to forgive them.
Thank you for Jim Provenzano's column ["Outgames a go," Sports Complex, August 3]. I have friends who chose to attend the Outgames, so I was glad to hear that they got to go to fun parties and mingle with cute gays from around the world. But good for Provenzano for not letting the world off the hook for this shameful, embarrassing moment in gay pride history.
Dan Dyer
San Francisco
Candid column
'Twas great to encounter such a candid and straightforward column, unimpeded by the filter of political correctness, on the Montreal Outgames; along with the accompanying allusions to the years of low-integrity, malicious personal/political history that inspired the split in the global sports movement and has fueled the formation of GLISA and the production and promotion of the Outgames "movement." Time and again, the Outgames organization has exhibited, through action and word, the destructive nature and foundation of their mission. To read references to what has lain beneath the surface for so long, and – in remaining un-articulated – been given tacit approval from our own (and by "our," I mean LGBT) press and media, is simply refreshing as well as entertainingly offered.
Thank you for having the courage and integrity to print this Mr. Provenzano's point of view. More of this, please.
Kile Ozier
New York, New York
[Editor's note: The writer was director of ceremonies at Gay Games VII.]
Wishes Outgames the best, but...
I am moved to write Jim Provenzano about his recent column entitled "Outgames a go." It is so rewarding to me to finally hear someone else speak the truth about what had occurred between the Federation of Gay Games and Outgames. The Outgames have done such an amazing job of hiding the truth of their own actions to the international sports world that they should award themselves a gold medal. As many times as I have tried to speak the truth to others, it does my heart good to hear it from Mr. Provenzano.
It was also nice to hear about how things ran up in Montreal since at this point I have heard very little. I honestly wish them the best in creating another international sporting event in the hopes of spreading the gay sports movement even more throughout the world.
Thank you for speaking out with the truth. It is honestly appreciated by your readers. I for one will certainly pay closer attention to your column and the B.A.R. as a worthwhile community-based newspaper.
Nelson W. Luesse
Oakland, California
More on Outgames
Great piece on the "Outhouse Games" in the August 3 B.A.R. I've been out of San Francisco for the past two years so I haven't kept abreast of Jim Provenzano's ongoing reporting of the despicable, unethical manner in which the Montreal organizers behaved prior to the split with the Federation of Gay Games. I was, however, aptly informed of the events leading up to it. I really appreciate that Mr. Provenzano did not take the easy, politically correct path of welcoming the Outgames with open arms and playing forgive and forget. While carrying a grudge is normally not good for any of us, accurate, fair reporting of the facts is critical. I believe Mr. Provenzano has accomplished that very thing.
Thank you for your forthright coverage of the topic.
Chuck Vrana
Omaha, Nebraska
Yawn... the more you type, the more you drive home my (and others) points... just keep it commin'
[ August 22, 2006, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
[ August 22, 2006, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
Yea, that's the trouble with most of these silly sportswriters. They make a tempest out of a teapot too many times just to have something to rant about. I heard an unbelivable two hour rant on Sporting News Radio a few weeks ago about the Whizanator (or some such device to mask steroid use or something). I thought: get a life. The self-serving super sensitivities of the jock sniffing motor mouths get a little boring and obvious. Rant and rave on, boys. That's how you earn your weekly checks. (I guess you never made much an impression on the sports fields). Yea, we understand you are the great communicators. Maybe somebody will erect a statue of you somewhere. Don't hold your breath.
I trust the gentleman from Memphis, Mr. "Philiproy" - with sport activities listed in his bio as limited to Chess - isn't refering to this reporter.
Having wrestled for over 12 years(20 tournaments, five medals), and competed in five track events in Chicago and Sacramento (just two medals- what a wimp!), I sincerely hope not.
You certainly aren't referring to Cyd, who has medaled in several sports, and competed for many years in track, flag football and swimming.
Nearly every LGBT sports writer I know is an active participant in one sport or another, and has competed in the Gay Games or Outgames. Colleagues who wrote for the Bay Area Reporter include, track, physique, swimming, racquetball, medalists, and the Gay Games founder.
Some even played chess.
The game here, however, seems more akin to Smear the Queer.
[ August 23, 2006, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Sports Complex ]
Having wrestled for over 12 years(20 tournaments, five medals), and competed in five track events in Chicago and Sacramento (just two medals- what a wimp!), I sincerely hope not.
You certainly aren't referring to Cyd, who has medaled in several sports, and competed for many years in track, flag football and swimming.
Nearly every LGBT sports writer I know is an active participant in one sport or another, and has competed in the Gay Games or Outgames. Colleagues who wrote for the Bay Area Reporter include, track, physique, swimming, racquetball, medalists, and the Gay Games founder.
Some even played chess.
The game here, however, seems more akin to Smear the Queer.
[ August 23, 2006, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Sports Complex ]
Moving away from Jim (as he enjoys us talking about him too much), I was able to find the article that he referenced (Richard Burnett).
It was actually a very well written article (although I take extreme issue with him calling the people at FGG control freaks - a much more professional tone could had been presented)! Also, I find it hard to believe that some in the media took issue with moving the homeless and sex trade workers from Viger Square (it is a public facility after all, intended for public use and functions).
I also enjoyed how he nailed how bad Mark Tewsbury's french is (It really was TERRIBLE listening to him... well, he speaks it well, I am sure - but his accent is just... mind numbing).
If his comments about the merchandise coming from anti-gay countries is true (I checked all outgames products - and none of them come from the places he listed - or any other anti gay country I am failiar with), that would be something pretty sad. I am very particular with where I direct my money - and supporting anti gay countries is certainly something I try to control for.
It must also be mentioned that Senator Fortier was NOT supposed to be at the Outgames. In fact, the PMO (Prime Ministers Office) insisted that he NOT go, along with his own staff. So, in fact - the federal government had almost NO presence at the games, other than the Prime Minister having the Governor General make a message in the Offial Program, and a renagade Senator who disobeyed the Prime Minister.
Anyway, here is the FULL article -
Personal best
Richard Burnett
Montreal's World Outgames outgamed the FGG and Chicago
photo: Courtesy Montreal 2006
I have long said of Montrealers what Pericles once famously said of sports-mad Athenians. "We do not imitate, as we are a model to others," said the statesman, who opened Athenian democracy to the ordinary citizen, built magnificent temples atop the Acropolis, and created the Athenian empire, not to mention indulged in some same-sex love.
While it's true Olympic Stadium - though widely acclaimed by architects and tourists as one of the world's most beautiful stadiums - isn't exactly the Parthenon, jaded Montrealers do think of the Big O as something of a ruin.
But even stone-cold Montrealers couldn't help but marvel at the enchanting spectacle that was the star-studded opening ceremonies of the just-completed inaugural World Outgames, which saw 40,000 people fill the Big O, including 12,000 athletes from 111 countries, including brave contingents from such virulently anti-gay nations as Senegal and Pakistan.
These athletes were greeted with spine-tingling standing ovations as they walked onto the field at Olympic Stadium, and k.d. lang was right when she told reporters backstage about PM Stephen Harper, who didn't attend the opening ceremony, "It's a sad statement that the national leader of a country that's one of the most progressive countries in the world chooses to support intolerance."
Harper's substitute, federal Public Works Minister Michael Fortier, was booed off the stage. The incident made international headlines, and when media pundits trash Montrealers for "embarrassing" the city, I ask what's more embarrassing - stripping citizens of their civil rights, or booing a political hack?
The absence of Harper (who has also declined to open the International AIDS Conference in Toronto on Aug. 13) was underscored by the three-day International LGBT Human Rights Conference that preceded the Outgames - which, incidentally, could have easily hosted 20,000 athletes had the control freaks at the Federation of Gay Games not revoked Montreal's right to host the 2006 Gay Games.
Instead, 11,000 athletes - mostly Americans - attended Chicago's replacement Gay Games. As out Austrian MP and European Green Party spokesperson Ulrike Lunacek told me over lunch during the LGBT conference, "Most Europeans decided to come to Montreal instead."
Meanwhile, Martina Navratilova, who read the Declaration of Montreal at the opening ceremonies with Mark Tewksbury (whose French was brutal), told me, "We're all headed in the same direction. So let's please get along."
But in the next breath she said, "The Europeans opted to come to Montreal because it's easier to get a visa. America is like a prison with barbed wire. They don't want to let anybody in these days."
That said, Montreal also had its fair share of outrageous visa delays for athletes coming primarily from Third World nations. Under political pressure, Harper's Conservatives finally caved. Unfortunately, that was too late for some athletes outed in their anti-gay home nations. Others, like 24 athletes from Cameroon, never even boarded a plane.
Montreal 2006 organizers also deserve blame for selling Outgames souvenirs and T-shirts made in such anti-gay countries as Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Guatemala. And, to make room for the popular Athlete's Village, they had the homeless booted from Square Viger, scandalously echoing Mayor Jean Drapeau's tactics against gay establishments when he "cleaned up" downtown Montreal on the eve of the 1976 Olympics.
Montreal 2006 also ran one of the most useless and arrogant media relations departments I've ever had the misfortune of working with - including charging working journalists $75 each to attend keynote LGBT conference speeches by Navratilova and UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour.
While Montreal media widely despised how the Outgames press room was run, none covered the Outgames in their sports sections or sports broadcasts - including Global TV, a point I brought up on-air live when I was invited to debate the Outgames on, ahem, Global TV.
Yes, there was saturation coverage in the news sections - La Presse editorial writer Ariane Krol even pettily opined, "Montrealers would have preferred these games be called by a French name" - but apparently to sports editors in this city, the term "gay athlete" is still an oxymoron.
Fittingly, a couple of records were broken at the Outgames. They also provided a coming home of sorts for L.A.-based literary legend Patricia Nell Warren, 70, the former marathon runner who was one of 12 women who crashed the 1969 men-only Boston Marathon, and who sold 10 million copies of her 1974 landmark novel, The Front Runner, about Billy Sives, a gay U.S. long distance runner who was killed before completing the 5,000-metre race at the 1976 Montreal Olympics.
"It was exciting for me to actually see the Olympic facilities and the Olympic Village where Billy would have stayed. It made me wish I was a young runner all over again," Warren told me the day after she ran the last 100 metres of the 5,000-metre race at the Montreal Outgames.
"It was very hot," Warren recalls, "and I was announced so that people wouldn't ask, 'Who's that woman down the stretch?' I just jumped on the track and did my thing. Since I have Lyme disease, I don't run. I walk. But I did a great personal best. And I felt like I was closing a circle."
It was actually a very well written article (although I take extreme issue with him calling the people at FGG control freaks - a much more professional tone could had been presented)! Also, I find it hard to believe that some in the media took issue with moving the homeless and sex trade workers from Viger Square (it is a public facility after all, intended for public use and functions).
I also enjoyed how he nailed how bad Mark Tewsbury's french is (It really was TERRIBLE listening to him... well, he speaks it well, I am sure - but his accent is just... mind numbing).
If his comments about the merchandise coming from anti-gay countries is true (I checked all outgames products - and none of them come from the places he listed - or any other anti gay country I am failiar with), that would be something pretty sad. I am very particular with where I direct my money - and supporting anti gay countries is certainly something I try to control for.
It must also be mentioned that Senator Fortier was NOT supposed to be at the Outgames. In fact, the PMO (Prime Ministers Office) insisted that he NOT go, along with his own staff. So, in fact - the federal government had almost NO presence at the games, other than the Prime Minister having the Governor General make a message in the Offial Program, and a renagade Senator who disobeyed the Prime Minister.
Anyway, here is the FULL article -
Personal best
Richard Burnett
Montreal's World Outgames outgamed the FGG and Chicago
photo: Courtesy Montreal 2006
I have long said of Montrealers what Pericles once famously said of sports-mad Athenians. "We do not imitate, as we are a model to others," said the statesman, who opened Athenian democracy to the ordinary citizen, built magnificent temples atop the Acropolis, and created the Athenian empire, not to mention indulged in some same-sex love.
While it's true Olympic Stadium - though widely acclaimed by architects and tourists as one of the world's most beautiful stadiums - isn't exactly the Parthenon, jaded Montrealers do think of the Big O as something of a ruin.
But even stone-cold Montrealers couldn't help but marvel at the enchanting spectacle that was the star-studded opening ceremonies of the just-completed inaugural World Outgames, which saw 40,000 people fill the Big O, including 12,000 athletes from 111 countries, including brave contingents from such virulently anti-gay nations as Senegal and Pakistan.
These athletes were greeted with spine-tingling standing ovations as they walked onto the field at Olympic Stadium, and k.d. lang was right when she told reporters backstage about PM Stephen Harper, who didn't attend the opening ceremony, "It's a sad statement that the national leader of a country that's one of the most progressive countries in the world chooses to support intolerance."
Harper's substitute, federal Public Works Minister Michael Fortier, was booed off the stage. The incident made international headlines, and when media pundits trash Montrealers for "embarrassing" the city, I ask what's more embarrassing - stripping citizens of their civil rights, or booing a political hack?
The absence of Harper (who has also declined to open the International AIDS Conference in Toronto on Aug. 13) was underscored by the three-day International LGBT Human Rights Conference that preceded the Outgames - which, incidentally, could have easily hosted 20,000 athletes had the control freaks at the Federation of Gay Games not revoked Montreal's right to host the 2006 Gay Games.
Instead, 11,000 athletes - mostly Americans - attended Chicago's replacement Gay Games. As out Austrian MP and European Green Party spokesperson Ulrike Lunacek told me over lunch during the LGBT conference, "Most Europeans decided to come to Montreal instead."
Meanwhile, Martina Navratilova, who read the Declaration of Montreal at the opening ceremonies with Mark Tewksbury (whose French was brutal), told me, "We're all headed in the same direction. So let's please get along."
But in the next breath she said, "The Europeans opted to come to Montreal because it's easier to get a visa. America is like a prison with barbed wire. They don't want to let anybody in these days."
That said, Montreal also had its fair share of outrageous visa delays for athletes coming primarily from Third World nations. Under political pressure, Harper's Conservatives finally caved. Unfortunately, that was too late for some athletes outed in their anti-gay home nations. Others, like 24 athletes from Cameroon, never even boarded a plane.
Montreal 2006 organizers also deserve blame for selling Outgames souvenirs and T-shirts made in such anti-gay countries as Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Guatemala. And, to make room for the popular Athlete's Village, they had the homeless booted from Square Viger, scandalously echoing Mayor Jean Drapeau's tactics against gay establishments when he "cleaned up" downtown Montreal on the eve of the 1976 Olympics.
Montreal 2006 also ran one of the most useless and arrogant media relations departments I've ever had the misfortune of working with - including charging working journalists $75 each to attend keynote LGBT conference speeches by Navratilova and UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour.
While Montreal media widely despised how the Outgames press room was run, none covered the Outgames in their sports sections or sports broadcasts - including Global TV, a point I brought up on-air live when I was invited to debate the Outgames on, ahem, Global TV.
Yes, there was saturation coverage in the news sections - La Presse editorial writer Ariane Krol even pettily opined, "Montrealers would have preferred these games be called by a French name" - but apparently to sports editors in this city, the term "gay athlete" is still an oxymoron.
Fittingly, a couple of records were broken at the Outgames. They also provided a coming home of sorts for L.A.-based literary legend Patricia Nell Warren, 70, the former marathon runner who was one of 12 women who crashed the 1969 men-only Boston Marathon, and who sold 10 million copies of her 1974 landmark novel, The Front Runner, about Billy Sives, a gay U.S. long distance runner who was killed before completing the 5,000-metre race at the 1976 Montreal Olympics.
"It was exciting for me to actually see the Olympic facilities and the Olympic Village where Billy would have stayed. It made me wish I was a young runner all over again," Warren told me the day after she ran the last 100 metres of the 5,000-metre race at the Montreal Outgames.
"It was very hot," Warren recalls, "and I was announced so that people wouldn't ask, 'Who's that woman down the stretch?' I just jumped on the track and did my thing. Since I have Lyme disease, I don't run. I walk. But I did a great personal best. And I felt like I was closing a circle."
Jim/Sports Complex,
Your local coverage of the Outgames might be somewhat more representative of Bay Area athletes if you had the slightest idea of how many actually attended.
There are, in fact, more than 50 different athletes from the Bay area who came home with medals. Your claim that only 50 attended OutGames is probably merely a reflection of the fact-checking you put into your "well researched" articles. By taking the time to find out how many actually attended, you could make that first step towards actually favoring GLBT athletes, instead of just claiming to do so.
Your local coverage of the Outgames might be somewhat more representative of Bay Area athletes if you had the slightest idea of how many actually attended.
There are, in fact, more than 50 different athletes from the Bay area who came home with medals. Your claim that only 50 attended OutGames is probably merely a reflection of the fact-checking you put into your "well researched" articles. By taking the time to find out how many actually attended, you could make that first step towards actually favoring GLBT athletes, instead of just claiming to do so.
Actually, there've been dozens of articles including Bay Area Outgames participants in just the past few months.
Some BAR examples:
Feature article from 2005 on the Rainbow Koi (who won silver medals at Outgames)
Outgames and Gay Games cyclist (who eventually won several medals at both events
San Franciscan Dan Veatch's world record at Outgames and other Equipe SF aquatics medalists mentioned.
Outgames and Gay Games figure skaters to perform Sept 2 Sorry, no Outgames Bay Area skaters are performing. Are you also going to demand that I write about athletes who don't exist? If "chrisSF" really did compete, how/what did you do?)
Rainbow Koi benefit party mentioned
Outgames/Equipe SF uniform try-on party mentioned
Bay Blades benefit party (Four feature articles on this team have been featured in my articles since its formation in 1997.)
Other writers' Outgames coverage in the BAR:
Volleyball
Tennis
Badminton
Distance Running and Triathlon
Even our leather columnist included Outgames medalists.
While not surprised by baseless accusations and insults from the uninformed, I am surprised by the affronted demands of the very few, particularly those who've never volunteered information about their participation.
The estimate of 50 was obtained from a list of medalists provided by a Gay Games & Outgames competitor, and doublechecked with Outgames results sheets, available online.
Of course, when Montreal decides to release factual statements about athletic attendance, that will be newsworthy.
50 vs 650 registered Team SF participants, and yet they absurdly demand more coverage.
The comparatively few who did go to Montreal seem more comfortable complaining than doing anything about getting their stories out. Of course, no amount of disproportionate coverage seems to satisfy Outgames attendees.
If Outgames participants who love to hurl invective instead of providing information would step up, it might shift the pattern of longwinded yet cumulatively minor complaints.
But it's not going to result in full-page article on, say, the six track athletes who went to Montreal, while 45 went to Chicago. Do the math.
Do you have any better examples of local coverage that includes even half as many articles? I'm sure everyone would like to read them.
Perhaps you might prefer the SF Bay Times, whose coverage has rarely - if ever - covered either event, except for syndicated articles biased toward the Outgames, and this gem of a summation:
"I have not delved deeply into the rivalry and its implications for future Games, because it’s just not my thing. I think top level gay athletes should go to the Olympics. If everyone else wants to run around every two or four years and compete in over-30 flag football or ballroom dancing, by all means go for it.
From what I gather, Chicago is to be praised for organizing a profitable event on short notice without the help of millions of dollars in public subsidies. Montreal, in turn, produced a professional and well attended week without the aid and experience of the Federation of Gay Games, which got into a fight with the Montreal group early on in the planning process and dumped them for Chicago. Or maybe Montreal dumped the Federation. I forget. All I know is that now we have two games groups and two games. A tad excessive in my view, but let me know when they introduce naked lesbian pool whiffle golf, the latest sports fad chez moi. "
If that is your preference in terms of "coverage," enjoy it.
Some BAR examples:
Feature article from 2005 on the Rainbow Koi (who won silver medals at Outgames)
Outgames and Gay Games cyclist (who eventually won several medals at both events
San Franciscan Dan Veatch's world record at Outgames and other Equipe SF aquatics medalists mentioned.
Outgames and Gay Games figure skaters to perform Sept 2 Sorry, no Outgames Bay Area skaters are performing. Are you also going to demand that I write about athletes who don't exist? If "chrisSF" really did compete, how/what did you do?)
Rainbow Koi benefit party mentioned
Outgames/Equipe SF uniform try-on party mentioned
Bay Blades benefit party (Four feature articles on this team have been featured in my articles since its formation in 1997.)
Other writers' Outgames coverage in the BAR:
Volleyball
Tennis
Badminton
Distance Running and Triathlon
Even our leather columnist included Outgames medalists.
While not surprised by baseless accusations and insults from the uninformed, I am surprised by the affronted demands of the very few, particularly those who've never volunteered information about their participation.
The estimate of 50 was obtained from a list of medalists provided by a Gay Games & Outgames competitor, and doublechecked with Outgames results sheets, available online.
Of course, when Montreal decides to release factual statements about athletic attendance, that will be newsworthy.
50 vs 650 registered Team SF participants, and yet they absurdly demand more coverage.
The comparatively few who did go to Montreal seem more comfortable complaining than doing anything about getting their stories out. Of course, no amount of disproportionate coverage seems to satisfy Outgames attendees.
If Outgames participants who love to hurl invective instead of providing information would step up, it might shift the pattern of longwinded yet cumulatively minor complaints.
But it's not going to result in full-page article on, say, the six track athletes who went to Montreal, while 45 went to Chicago. Do the math.
Do you have any better examples of local coverage that includes even half as many articles? I'm sure everyone would like to read them.
Perhaps you might prefer the SF Bay Times, whose coverage has rarely - if ever - covered either event, except for syndicated articles biased toward the Outgames, and this gem of a summation:
"I have not delved deeply into the rivalry and its implications for future Games, because it’s just not my thing. I think top level gay athletes should go to the Olympics. If everyone else wants to run around every two or four years and compete in over-30 flag football or ballroom dancing, by all means go for it.
From what I gather, Chicago is to be praised for organizing a profitable event on short notice without the help of millions of dollars in public subsidies. Montreal, in turn, produced a professional and well attended week without the aid and experience of the Federation of Gay Games, which got into a fight with the Montreal group early on in the planning process and dumped them for Chicago. Or maybe Montreal dumped the Federation. I forget. All I know is that now we have two games groups and two games. A tad excessive in my view, but let me know when they introduce naked lesbian pool whiffle golf, the latest sports fad chez moi. "
If that is your preference in terms of "coverage," enjoy it.
I'm not sure how a list of medalists, double-checked against OutGames results, would somehow provide you with an accurate number of participants from the Bay Area. I would imagine such a list would provide you with an accurate representation of the number of medalists, but then again, I'm not a "professional" sports writer. In any event, it seems that at best what you really have is an estimate, but of course, only after you get called on it do you bother to reveal that it's an estimate.
I'm not making any "affronted demands", but rather I'm pointing out that your "well researched" articles aren't exactly well researched. I've seen the same list you allude to, and I can tell you that a Tsunami Synchro swimmer was clearly listed on it as having medaled twice in silver, yet in your BAR article last week those medals somehow turned to bronze. Yup, it's probably the fault of the Montreal media relations department somehow.
A letter writer in last week's BAR called you out on several inaccuracies and a bit of bias as well, yet you somehow saw fit to stand by your story in that same issue. Of course, you never bothered to refute any of his points.
My other point would be that given the nasty tone of your articles about the OutGames, why would the "comparatively few who did go to Montreal" bother talking to you ? The guy in charge of Equipe SF probably could have provided you with accurate stats, but after you bashed him in a previous article concerning the manufactured controversy of the Team SF name, he's probably not one of your fans. It's pretty clear you have no intention of fairly covering an international sporting event that was significant for thousands. Whether other BAR staff covered it, or whether Mr. Marcus did isn't the issue, you're supposedly the sports writer.
As for me, yes, I was in Montreal. I swam and got a personal best in one of my events. I'm also a board member of Tsunami, and I'm the guy who gave you access just a few days ago to the Tsunami listserve.
Since you ask, I'll tell you. My preference in coverage would be bit more fact-checking, and a lot less nastiness. Do you suppose you can deliver ?
If not, maybe Mr. Marcus will step up to become the "International Sporting Events Columnist".
I'm not making any "affronted demands", but rather I'm pointing out that your "well researched" articles aren't exactly well researched. I've seen the same list you allude to, and I can tell you that a Tsunami Synchro swimmer was clearly listed on it as having medaled twice in silver, yet in your BAR article last week those medals somehow turned to bronze. Yup, it's probably the fault of the Montreal media relations department somehow.
A letter writer in last week's BAR called you out on several inaccuracies and a bit of bias as well, yet you somehow saw fit to stand by your story in that same issue. Of course, you never bothered to refute any of his points.
My other point would be that given the nasty tone of your articles about the OutGames, why would the "comparatively few who did go to Montreal" bother talking to you ? The guy in charge of Equipe SF probably could have provided you with accurate stats, but after you bashed him in a previous article concerning the manufactured controversy of the Team SF name, he's probably not one of your fans. It's pretty clear you have no intention of fairly covering an international sporting event that was significant for thousands. Whether other BAR staff covered it, or whether Mr. Marcus did isn't the issue, you're supposedly the sports writer.
As for me, yes, I was in Montreal. I swam and got a personal best in one of my events. I'm also a board member of Tsunami, and I'm the guy who gave you access just a few days ago to the Tsunami listserve.
Since you ask, I'll tell you. My preference in coverage would be bit more fact-checking, and a lot less nastiness. Do you suppose you can deliver ?
If not, maybe Mr. Marcus will step up to become the "International Sporting Events Columnist".
Sweet...
Tsunami Swim Club and I have had a warm and fruitful relationship for the past decade. I even swam at a few practices, and have attended three IGLAs and other local Tsunami meets.
When I curated the Sporting Life exhibit, I was overwhelmed by the amount of photos, medals, and numerous scrapbooks - which included my articles about the accomplished swimmers - that were loaned. Some even donated their medals.
You can read my most recent Tsunami article here. Consistent with that issue's focus, the article focuses on longtime Tsunami veterans. With eight articles assigned to me that week, others went to another writer. Do you even acknowledge this far-reaching coverage? Nope, you bitch about one medal.
Last week's Tsunami Tsynchro article took precendent, as the controversy at the Stanford World Championships was more timely. This event may help to reverse the FINA gender discrimination against male Tsynchro swimmers. It made headlines around the country. Is there any coverage of Tsynchro here?
I haven't yet written about Tsunami swimming, diving, or water polo post-Games, and you're already complaining. Those medal tallies were all that were available at the time - the same Excel spreadsheet Giampiero M. provided to Equipe SF. So even asking them would have had the same result.
Apparently, there's no satisfying bitter Outgames complainers. I won't spend 24/7 writing about you or your sport, but congratulations on your PB.
I usually get space for one article a week at the BAR, and one every other week in seven other publications.
Of those estimated 250,000 weekly readers, less than half a dozen have complained about my Outgames articles. Most of them apparently have roosted here, with one vindictive Quebequois (with no proven sports or journalism experience) clucking over it all like a self-appointed queen right out of Alice in Wonderland.
Again, are there any other publications anywhere that devote so much time to so many local sports? Please show me examples, and I'd be happy to read them. Does this website have any medal tallies? Do any in Memphis or Quebec? Outsports has moved on to the Gay Softball World Series.
There are plenty more sports to cover in more articles, which you and your cronies will no doubt pick to shreds like vultures, while failing to provide any examples of sport-specific coverage that is presumed less "biased" or more accurate.
Two weeks ago, Tsunami's president extended my request to ALL Tsunami members to share their stories, photos and comments. If you refused to reply to that, it isn't my fault.
Two months ago, Alissa P. also mentioned at the team photo session, (photos which I took - did any other reporter ever bother to do that this year?) that about four Tsunamis were going to Montreal. Were you there that day? I was ready and willing to talk to anyone, and did with several people before that practice.
In Chicago, I attended three swimming events. I also attended and wrote about a Parks Dept. meeting where Tsunami was threatened with more limited practice hours.
However, I have not, and will not, scour through every PDF page of both events' swimming results to tally up every one of hundreds of swimming medals. I don't get paid enough to spend those hours.
If you'd like to volunteer to do that, I'd welcome your expertise. Other sports teams and clubs have already done so, and have been very helpful.
Unlike your single complaint about one medal error, my expansive coverage of Tsunami's accomplishements and frequent fundraisers is appreciated by most, and I enjoy writing about them. I've never received a complaint about Tsunami coverage, except from you.
As for your Equipe SF self-appointed leader, your "bashing" complaint is vicious and distorted. He had his chance to explain his actions, and instead used this website for his own rant without replying in a normal fashion to one simple question. He also refused to relay my repeated requests to Equipe SF members for interviews.
Why should I bother making further efforts with a very small group that instead so virulently bashes my coverage, and refuses to acknowledge an ounce of well-deserved criticism? Yahoo declaratively told Jung he was wrong, and dumped his group. How is reporting what actually happened a bashing? Oh, that's right. When Outgames or Equipe SF are wrong.
By the way, I'm not sure which listserv you mention, but the one of four Tsunami Yahoo Groups (is that what you mean?) of which I am a member still has a link to Montreal 2006 as being the seventh Gay Games.
You might want to update that, since you're such a nitpicker about accuracy.
[ August 24, 2006, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Sports Complex ]
When I curated the Sporting Life exhibit, I was overwhelmed by the amount of photos, medals, and numerous scrapbooks - which included my articles about the accomplished swimmers - that were loaned. Some even donated their medals.
You can read my most recent Tsunami article here. Consistent with that issue's focus, the article focuses on longtime Tsunami veterans. With eight articles assigned to me that week, others went to another writer. Do you even acknowledge this far-reaching coverage? Nope, you bitch about one medal.
Last week's Tsunami Tsynchro article took precendent, as the controversy at the Stanford World Championships was more timely. This event may help to reverse the FINA gender discrimination against male Tsynchro swimmers. It made headlines around the country. Is there any coverage of Tsynchro here?
I haven't yet written about Tsunami swimming, diving, or water polo post-Games, and you're already complaining. Those medal tallies were all that were available at the time - the same Excel spreadsheet Giampiero M. provided to Equipe SF. So even asking them would have had the same result.
Apparently, there's no satisfying bitter Outgames complainers. I won't spend 24/7 writing about you or your sport, but congratulations on your PB.
I usually get space for one article a week at the BAR, and one every other week in seven other publications.
Of those estimated 250,000 weekly readers, less than half a dozen have complained about my Outgames articles. Most of them apparently have roosted here, with one vindictive Quebequois (with no proven sports or journalism experience) clucking over it all like a self-appointed queen right out of Alice in Wonderland.
Again, are there any other publications anywhere that devote so much time to so many local sports? Please show me examples, and I'd be happy to read them. Does this website have any medal tallies? Do any in Memphis or Quebec? Outsports has moved on to the Gay Softball World Series.
There are plenty more sports to cover in more articles, which you and your cronies will no doubt pick to shreds like vultures, while failing to provide any examples of sport-specific coverage that is presumed less "biased" or more accurate.
Two weeks ago, Tsunami's president extended my request to ALL Tsunami members to share their stories, photos and comments. If you refused to reply to that, it isn't my fault.
Two months ago, Alissa P. also mentioned at the team photo session, (photos which I took - did any other reporter ever bother to do that this year?) that about four Tsunamis were going to Montreal. Were you there that day? I was ready and willing to talk to anyone, and did with several people before that practice.
In Chicago, I attended three swimming events. I also attended and wrote about a Parks Dept. meeting where Tsunami was threatened with more limited practice hours.
However, I have not, and will not, scour through every PDF page of both events' swimming results to tally up every one of hundreds of swimming medals. I don't get paid enough to spend those hours.
If you'd like to volunteer to do that, I'd welcome your expertise. Other sports teams and clubs have already done so, and have been very helpful.
Unlike your single complaint about one medal error, my expansive coverage of Tsunami's accomplishements and frequent fundraisers is appreciated by most, and I enjoy writing about them. I've never received a complaint about Tsunami coverage, except from you.
As for your Equipe SF self-appointed leader, your "bashing" complaint is vicious and distorted. He had his chance to explain his actions, and instead used this website for his own rant without replying in a normal fashion to one simple question. He also refused to relay my repeated requests to Equipe SF members for interviews.
Why should I bother making further efforts with a very small group that instead so virulently bashes my coverage, and refuses to acknowledge an ounce of well-deserved criticism? Yahoo declaratively told Jung he was wrong, and dumped his group. How is reporting what actually happened a bashing? Oh, that's right. When Outgames or Equipe SF are wrong.
By the way, I'm not sure which listserv you mention, but the one of four Tsunami Yahoo Groups (is that what you mean?) of which I am a member still has a link to Montreal 2006 as being the seventh Gay Games.
You might want to update that, since you're such a nitpicker about accuracy.
[ August 24, 2006, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Sports Complex ]
Just an FYI - I am a vindictive Ontarian Anglophone. I moved to Québec from Ontario just a few years ago Please insult my country, province and language correctly.
As for my lack of knowledge of sports - damn right! That's why I always preface most of my comments with the statement I am not all that familiar with the technical aspects of sporting organizations.
However, hats off to ChrisinSF for calling you about your lack of objectivity and inability to report facts in areas that I am unable to comment. His observations are doubly important since anyone who disagrees with you, you simply shrug off as being not informed, or Outgame collaborators/zombines.
I am though, able still to critize your inability to report without bias and with professionalism (and let's face it - your inability to get over this very PERSONAL hatred you have of Montréal).
As I've said before, every reply you make to myself and others on this website show exactly how "out of it" you are, and drives home the fact that you have such a personal vendeta against Montréal (and by your biggoted comments - Canadians as a whole) that you are entirely unable to report acurrately and properly.
Everyone should take comfort in the fact that you're not a serious "reporter" (and judging by your incredibly off comments - NEVER will be), and that you will always be kept to the sidelines of the serious boys and girls who work very hard to provide balanced and well researched reporting. Rather than taking our advice and comments, you refuse to believe that you have any problems at all with your writting and objectivity. This is a shame, because you could have potential for something more - but alas, you refuse to admit there's a problem (the first phase of change in patients is that you must first recognize there's a problem in order to solve it).
I think the best comparison is this - you're the American Idol 8th runner up of journalism, when you so desperately want to be taken as seriously as Barbara Streisand (face it - you're not even in the same league).
With this being said - there really is no reason for me or anyone else to comment back to anything else you have to say (end of discussion). No one takes you seriously, with good cause - all they have to do is read your replies on this website, and your anti Canadian rant).
You will have no further comment from me, as you've made it clear that "the world is flat" and no matter what anyone says to you, the world will always be held up by the back of a turtle.
Your petulant canuck, and maple leaf little shit,
Christopher.
[ August 24, 2006, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
Please insult my country, province and language correctly.As for my lack of knowledge of sports - damn right! That's why I always preface most of my comments with the statement I am not all that familiar with the technical aspects of sporting organizations.
However, hats off to ChrisinSF for calling you about your lack of objectivity and inability to report facts in areas that I am unable to comment. His observations are doubly important since anyone who disagrees with you, you simply shrug off as being not informed, or Outgame collaborators/zombines.
I am though, able still to critize your inability to report without bias and with professionalism (and let's face it - your inability to get over this very PERSONAL hatred you have of Montréal).
As I've said before, every reply you make to myself and others on this website show exactly how "out of it" you are, and drives home the fact that you have such a personal vendeta against Montréal (and by your biggoted comments - Canadians as a whole) that you are entirely unable to report acurrately and properly.
Everyone should take comfort in the fact that you're not a serious "reporter" (and judging by your incredibly off comments - NEVER will be), and that you will always be kept to the sidelines of the serious boys and girls who work very hard to provide balanced and well researched reporting. Rather than taking our advice and comments, you refuse to believe that you have any problems at all with your writting and objectivity. This is a shame, because you could have potential for something more - but alas, you refuse to admit there's a problem (the first phase of change in patients is that you must first recognize there's a problem in order to solve it).
I think the best comparison is this - you're the American Idol 8th runner up of journalism, when you so desperately want to be taken as seriously as Barbara Streisand (face it - you're not even in the same league).
With this being said - there really is no reason for me or anyone else to comment back to anything else you have to say (end of discussion). No one takes you seriously, with good cause - all they have to do is read your replies on this website, and your anti Canadian rant).
You will have no further comment from me, as you've made it clear that "the world is flat" and no matter what anyone says to you, the world will always be held up by the back of a turtle.
Your petulant canuck, and maple leaf little shit,
Christopher.
[ August 24, 2006, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Rastuurman ]
Jim,
I was the Tsunami team secretary at the Rec and Park meeting you covered years ago, and I was the first Tsunami to speak at that meeting. I was the co-president of the team when you covered the IGLA swim meet we held at Stanford. I don't really need you to list everything you've done for Tsunami in the past decade, but you should know that I and my "cronies" are very grateful for your coverage.
The issue of Tsunami only came up because you questioned whether I had competed. I haven't made ANY complaints about the breadth or lack of Tsunami coverage. I'm not now writing on behalf of Tsunami. How much coverage you've provided Tsunami, and your perception of your relations with Tsunami aren't an issue. It is very likely that Tsunami would appreciate coverage in the near future, as Rec and Park are now proposing triple digit increases in permit fees for the Hamilton and King Pools.
I did point out that there was an error in your column of last week. The error happens to involve a Tsunami member, but he wasn't identified as a Tsunami member in your column. "My bitch about one medal" is actually pointing out an error made in your column about TWO medals involving an athlete who went to Outgames.
The larger issue is that you STILL don't have the slightest idea how many Bay Area athletes went to OutGames. And even after that has been pointed out to you, you persist in claiming that only 50 went. The fact that medal tallies were all that was available doesn't explain how you decided that a count of medalists was somehow the same thing as a count of participants.
Should you reply, I would really love to see some explanation from you about how a list of 50 medalists becomes 50 participants. We already know that the list was all that was available. But how exactly does a professional journalist confuse the word "medalist" with the word "participant" ? From there, you might just start to understand why so many are irate about your Outgames coverage. It's not that it doesn't exist, nor that it's not enough, but rather that it is both uninformed (while claiming to be well-researched) and mean-spirited.
For your information, there were 13 Tsunami swimmers in Montreal, including myself. There were two Tsunami Tsynchro swimmers. There was a USF Masters swimmer there(you already covered his world record), and a regular participant at Tsunami practices who swam for an Australian team in Montreal.
Here's a quote from your Team SF controversy article:
"Ross Hayduk of Team SF's board (and an FGG delegate) says Jung "monopolized meetings" with his arguments and insisted that he represented hundreds of Montreal-bound athletes. Yet, according to Hayduk, Jung could not identify a single one. Hayduk says Jung touted his skills as a "financial management expert," but never helped raise funds for Team SF".
Sorry, what I see here is bash job. The quotes you included above have almost nothing to do with the "controversy", and you are clearly attempting to discredit him.
What exactly do you propose the SF group in Montreal call themselves ? Perhaps..."The Group from San Francisco That Can't Call Themselves "Team" Because Of Some Bitter Federation Flunkies". Has a nice ring, doesn't it ? I'm waiting for your column discussing how Team SF did a huge service to Montreal-bound athletes with that bit of bitchiness.
Whether there is another publication in town that covers as much as you isn't the point. Lack of any serious competition isn't an excuse for inaccuracy in your "well-researched" articles.
You claim your articles are "well researched". When an error is pointed out, you respond by calling me a "nitpicker". You then launch into an extensive cataloging of everything you've ever done for Tsunami, which wasn't ever an issue in the first place.
So I'll repeat. My preference for coverage is more fact-checking, and less nastiness. Can you deliver ?
I was the Tsunami team secretary at the Rec and Park meeting you covered years ago, and I was the first Tsunami to speak at that meeting. I was the co-president of the team when you covered the IGLA swim meet we held at Stanford. I don't really need you to list everything you've done for Tsunami in the past decade, but you should know that I and my "cronies" are very grateful for your coverage.
The issue of Tsunami only came up because you questioned whether I had competed. I haven't made ANY complaints about the breadth or lack of Tsunami coverage. I'm not now writing on behalf of Tsunami. How much coverage you've provided Tsunami, and your perception of your relations with Tsunami aren't an issue. It is very likely that Tsunami would appreciate coverage in the near future, as Rec and Park are now proposing triple digit increases in permit fees for the Hamilton and King Pools.
I did point out that there was an error in your column of last week. The error happens to involve a Tsunami member, but he wasn't identified as a Tsunami member in your column. "My bitch about one medal" is actually pointing out an error made in your column about TWO medals involving an athlete who went to Outgames.
The larger issue is that you STILL don't have the slightest idea how many Bay Area athletes went to OutGames. And even after that has been pointed out to you, you persist in claiming that only 50 went. The fact that medal tallies were all that was available doesn't explain how you decided that a count of medalists was somehow the same thing as a count of participants.
Should you reply, I would really love to see some explanation from you about how a list of 50 medalists becomes 50 participants. We already know that the list was all that was available. But how exactly does a professional journalist confuse the word "medalist" with the word "participant" ? From there, you might just start to understand why so many are irate about your Outgames coverage. It's not that it doesn't exist, nor that it's not enough, but rather that it is both uninformed (while claiming to be well-researched) and mean-spirited.
For your information, there were 13 Tsunami swimmers in Montreal, including myself. There were two Tsunami Tsynchro swimmers. There was a USF Masters swimmer there(you already covered his world record), and a regular participant at Tsunami practices who swam for an Australian team in Montreal.
Here's a quote from your Team SF controversy article:
"Ross Hayduk of Team SF's board (and an FGG delegate) says Jung "monopolized meetings" with his arguments and insisted that he represented hundreds of Montreal-bound athletes. Yet, according to Hayduk, Jung could not identify a single one. Hayduk says Jung touted his skills as a "financial management expert," but never helped raise funds for Team SF".
Sorry, what I see here is bash job. The quotes you included above have almost nothing to do with the "controversy", and you are clearly attempting to discredit him.
What exactly do you propose the SF group in Montreal call themselves ? Perhaps..."The Group from San Francisco That Can't Call Themselves "Team" Because Of Some Bitter Federation Flunkies". Has a nice ring, doesn't it ? I'm waiting for your column discussing how Team SF did a huge service to Montreal-bound athletes with that bit of bitchiness.
Whether there is another publication in town that covers as much as you isn't the point. Lack of any serious competition isn't an excuse for inaccuracy in your "well-researched" articles.
You claim your articles are "well researched". When an error is pointed out, you respond by calling me a "nitpicker". You then launch into an extensive cataloging of everything you've ever done for Tsunami, which wasn't ever an issue in the first place.
So I'll repeat. My preference for coverage is more fact-checking, and less nastiness. Can you deliver ?
I'm not going to dredge up this Equipe SF naming topic again. That's done, and if you disagree with Team SF's board decisions, complain to them.
As soon as you and others with complaints figure out how to "deliver" information in the proper manner, I'd be happy to "deliver" an expansive swimming article. That would be via a simple email, not a public declaration of disdain, nor by awaiting an engraved invitation.
I've already chosen several Tsunami photos provided/taken by me, and would really like an "accurate" medal count and participation numbers. Really.
As for Mssr. Rastin, I look forward to the day when my journalistic inadequacies are no longer his punching bag du jour.
But a typo-laden third, fourth and fifth attack doesn't discredit my decade of enthusiastic coverage. It only shows how good he is at hating from (thankfully) afar. I'll refrain from inappropriate insults when he does the same.
The only "vendetta" I have with Montreal is against its morass of mendacity; false statements, paid publicists feigning as individuals, bribing journalists with press junkets, dishonest numbers, and a clear disdain for the legacy - with origins in San Francisco - that gave Outgames its entire successful format and structure.
He only launched into his vitriol after the "All About Yves" article, and his critiques are biased with no foreknowledge of previous articles (which Wikipedia describes as \"extensive and brilliant sports journalism\". And no, I did not write that entry).
"Nobody?" Perhaps nobody here in this bizarre snippy thread. Hundreds of thousands of readers; a half dozen complaints from Outgames participants, or those who didn't compete at all.
And all this plays right into the Outgames handbook: attack any critics to no end, because it distracts all from the more important issues.
Seriously, folks, isn't there any other coverage of Outgames by others that you like? Or do you just enjoy complaining as a varsity sport?
(Barbara S.? I'd settle for "loser" Chris Daughtry)
[ August 24, 2006, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Sports Complex ]
As soon as you and others with complaints figure out how to "deliver" information in the proper manner, I'd be happy to "deliver" an expansive swimming article. That would be via a simple email, not a public declaration of disdain, nor by awaiting an engraved invitation.
I've already chosen several Tsunami photos provided/taken by me, and would really like an "accurate" medal count and participation numbers. Really.
As for Mssr. Rastin, I look forward to the day when my journalistic inadequacies are no longer his punching bag du jour.
But a typo-laden third, fourth and fifth attack doesn't discredit my decade of enthusiastic coverage. It only shows how good he is at hating from (thankfully) afar. I'll refrain from inappropriate insults when he does the same.
The only "vendetta" I have with Montreal is against its morass of mendacity; false statements, paid publicists feigning as individuals, bribing journalists with press junkets, dishonest numbers, and a clear disdain for the legacy - with origins in San Francisco - that gave Outgames its entire successful format and structure.
He only launched into his vitriol after the "All About Yves" article, and his critiques are biased with no foreknowledge of previous articles (which Wikipedia describes as \"extensive and brilliant sports journalism\". And no, I did not write that entry).
"Nobody?" Perhaps nobody here in this bizarre snippy thread. Hundreds of thousands of readers; a half dozen complaints from Outgames participants, or those who didn't compete at all.
And all this plays right into the Outgames handbook: attack any critics to no end, because it distracts all from the more important issues.
Seriously, folks, isn't there any other coverage of Outgames by others that you like? Or do you just enjoy complaining as a varsity sport?
(Barbara S.? I'd settle for "loser" Chris Daughtry)
[ August 24, 2006, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Sports Complex ]
Hopefully nothing too controversial here - just some nice Outgames pics from Toronto's fab magazine just out today that some people may enjoy.
http://www.fabmagazine.com/features/301/Ou...games_2006.html
Pat
http://www.fabmagazine.com/features/301/Ou...games_2006.html
Pat
I have NO idea why - but for some reason I always thought FAB was from Montréal. Perhaps I should pick up a copy and actually read it sometime...
Thanks for the link, Pat!
Thanks for the link, Pat!
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