There isn't enough denial in the world to obscure the correlation between anti-queer bigotry and religiosity. Here are some examples.

Christians would prefer jail to equal rights for the queer folk.

The Whore of Babylon's special Christmas 'f*ck-you' for the homos

The religion of peace

Huh ... I thought God does the judging, not these so called "Christians." I didn't get the memo that they are now God.

F Religion!

No, not F Religion but instead, F all those who promulgate a conservative, fundamentalist interpretation of religion be it Christianity, Judaisim or Islam. Interesting you don't have the same level of fanatacism with, for example, Shintoism and Jainism. I was going to suggest that perhaps it is because the first three are monotheistic religions, but then you have Zoroastrianism. Perhaps it is more that the first three are based on a masculine divinity?

You forget the participation of Shinto in pre-WWII nationalism and the war crimes that resulted from it.

I don't see the point in trying to distinguish between 'good' and 'bad' religion. I think that the abandonment of reason is itself the problem. A lot of gays and lesbians are still caught up in religion despite the abysmal history of the major religions regarding our civil liberties. The more of us who replace superstition with reason, the better. The fact that there are so many gay apologists for the largest homophobic hate-group in the world (the papist denomination) is appalling to me. If an organization is a religion, the normal standards don't apply. If Nazism were generally acknowledged as a religion, you would see the same thing, I think. People would post here explaining what Hitler 'really' meant (but didn't bother to include in his canonical works) and how 'real' Nazis are really super nice folks. You hear that all the time with Christianity. The apologists ask one to believe that theproblem is that the people who wrote the Bible and Christian leaders for the past 2000 years just had no idea what Jesus 'really' meant, not that christianity is an inherently homophobic ideology.

The world's largest homophobic hate-group opposes equality for gays and lesbians in Italy. I guess they have to stay busy between molestations.Christians promote hate in DC area schools.

Papists fight gay adoption rules

Christians promote hate in DC area schools.

Memphistn, sorry to hear about your disdain for Christianity, Catholicism and religion in general. Not everyone involved with religion is like that. I hope you meet some good people who actually practice Christianity. There is a huge difference.

If the papists would stop molesting children and opposing equality for queers all around the world, I would probably lose interest in them altogether. Without the political involvement, religion is just a harmless delusion. Of course, I know that there are individual Christians who are still good people. There are even denominations (just a few) that don't advocate oppression of gays and lesbians. I just don't believe that homophobic hate-groups (and the papist denomination is the largest in the world) should be given free passes just because they are religious groups. Usually, religious groups have political agendas. If the agenda includes the continued denial of equality for gays and lesbians, I am disgusted to see gays and lesbians lending their support. This would be equally true of papists or neo-nazis. Do you feel equally saddened by my 'disdain' for neo-nazis? Their belief system is founded on empirical evidence of the exact same quality as Christianity. And their political agenda often coincides with groups like the papists. In fact, the papists' collaboration with the real Nazis is so well-known that is should need no repeating. Papist clerics ran the holocaust (with at least tacit approval from Rome) in Croatia with such brutality that even Nazis were shocked. The denomination was also instrumental in helping Nazis escape justice following the war. Why should I feel anything less than disdain for homophobic hate groups and their memberships?

So I guess you like the word "hate" better than my choice of "disdain". Good to see you are not splitting hairs. I wish you peace deep into your soul.

I'm honestly confused by your reply. Do you believe that the papist denomination is NOT active globally in opposing equal rights for gays and lesbians? Do you really think that my awareness of the bigotry taught by the papist denomination is a sign of some deep spiritual crisis on my part? If I understand you, you are bothered by my acknowledgement of the papist denomination's anti-gay political activities but not by the anti-gay political activities themselves. I really can't understand that reaction but would be glad to hear your explanation. I feel the same way about all anti-gay hate groups. The papist denomination just happens to be the biggest and most active one in the world so they attract my attention often. I sorry if the unfortunate reality about the papists pains you but you are shooting the messenger.

The pope calls on all denominations to oppose equality for gays and lesbians. I wonder how many queer people contribute to the pope's profits every year?

I don't. Anyhow, I think there is a big difference between religion and faith. I wish more straight people had less religion and I wish more gay people had more faith.

I'm not sure what the difference is. Religion and faith are both belief in things for which there is absolutely no empirical evidence. I think it would help if religious people stopped trying to force their beliefs on others. Then, people could worship Jesus, Tom Cruise, or Mary idols, or some lovely shredded cabbage and it wouldn't matter.

For now, world's largest homophobic hate group is at it again.

Italian step toward equality for gays and lesbians opposed by papist denomination.

Evangelical Lutheran Church upholds 2000 years of Christian teachings on homosexuality by removing a pastor who found love.

Infallible leader of the papist denomination says 'no' to gay equality. I'm glad that's settled.

Brazilian papists oppose safe sex.

Breaking news: The pope still hates queers.

and that's why it's called faith

just because I can't prove to you of the existence of God doesn't mean that he doesn't exist

That's very true, of course. But it applies equally well to leprechauns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Surely one could only pity a person who's world view is based around worshipping and obeying the dictates of leprechauns or pasta. Other than finding it a bit sad, I don't care if people are religious. I'm talking about the objective fact that many religious groups happen to be politically active homophobic hate groups. Without the anti-gay bigotry, I am indifferent to their beliefs, however magically delicious they might be. However, many people seem to believe that once a group or idea is labeled 'religious', it is suddenly off limits to reason and critical thinking. I disagree strongly with that idea. My position is that while religiosity often explains anti-gay bigotry or the (at least tacit) support of anti-gay political activity, it never excuses it. We have the freedom to be completely free of religion, to believe in and support any existing religious group, or to make up a new religion on the spot. There is absolutely no excuse for belonging to or supporting any of the many, many, many religions that teach and spread of anti-gay bigotry.

if someone wants to believe in the flying spaghetti monster or leprechauns, that's their business

my faith doesn't support bigotry in any form-we're all God's children and all equal in his eyes

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus--Galatians 3:28

and there are plenty of other Christians out there that don't follow the same path of hatred that so-called Christians like Pat Robertson and his ilk are on

That's wonderful, theodoresdaddy. I'm glad you found--or founded--a denomination of Christianity that has renounced the 2000 year-old tradition of bigotry against gays and lesbians. What do you think of denominations or other religions that are politically active against gay and lesbian equality? What do you think about queers who lend their support to those bigoted organizations?Here is another example of religious bigotry.

Wow everyone on this thread needs to read Sam Harris' book
THE END OF FAITH

As a person raised in the 'pentecostal/protestant' faith it is an amazing read that is the most thought provoking book on the subject of faith.

PLEASE PICK IT UP

Leader of the world's largest homophobic hate group reminds his minions of their political duty. Papists are told that equality for queers is "not negotiable".

I find it alarming that some US citizens take political orders from a foreign head of state.

religion: for those that can't think for themselves.

atheism: for those who think they are smarter than others.

"By his own definition, (Albert) Einstein was a deeply religious person"--Wikipedia
http://www.adherents.com/people/pe/Albert_Einstein.html

"Good Report soars and rises to heaven, for virtuous things find favor with God. Evil Report should be shown inverted, for all her works are contrary to God and tend toward hell." --Leonardo Da Vinci
http://www.adherents.com/people/pd/Leonardo_DaVinci.html

"I never was without some religious Principles; I never doubted, for instance, the Existance of the Deity, that he made the World, & govern'd it by his Providence; that the most acceptable Service of God was the doing Good to Man; that our Souls are immortal; and that all Crime will be punished & Virtue rewarded either here or hereafter; these I esteem'd the Essentials of every Religion" -- Benjamin Franklin
http://home.uchicago.edu/~ahkissel/franklin.html#BM7

....but I guess those guys didn't think for themselves.

Wikipedia now there is a credible web site. Ann Coulter, GWB, Marine Gen. Peter Pace, etc… F religion!

Realists and religious people are not going to agree on the claims of religion. Realists will always want evidence for religious claims but there is none. Religious people are going to believe what they believe. I don't care if people are realists or if they believe in gods, leprechauns, the Great Pumpkin, etc. To me, the issue is that the vast majority of religions teach homophobic bigotry. We can make up a new religion, believe in any existing religion, or be free of religion altogether. Why do some queer people choose to join, support, and give money to homophobic hate groups? I think that the fact that an ideology happens to be religious (that is, unsupported by empirical evidence) doesn't give it a free pass on questions of morality. I think homophobic bigotry is immoral; papists believe it is the will of a god (according to the very raison d’être of popery--the pope). I cannot understand what would make a queer person support this type of evil ideology. Religious homophobic hate groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church, Roman Catholic Church, the Ku Klux Klan, etc. deserve our contempt, not our support.

Memphistn -

You make very persuasive points, and ones that have often occured to mne as well. But let me look at it from another angle - and for the record, I'm an out vestry member and lay preacher at Trinity Episcopal Church in Seattle (and not the only out person on the vestry!).

First, the lessons that we take from Jesus' actions about love aren't a bad way to live your life!

Second, things are changing. The Episcopal church is about to get dumped by the international Anglican community - for sticking up for gays! It has taken a long time, and there is much still to be done, but the greater part of the church believe that in full inclusion of gays, the church is doing the right thing. Our vestry is 100% behind our gay ordinand, raising the amount we support him with, raising hell with the bishop, who wants to postpone his ordination (not for reasons related to sexuality). We packed the place with our 6th annual Matthew Shepard sermon, etc., etc.

Third, remember how far we have come in American society since Stonewall. The church has not come as far, but it IS changing. American society has a long way to go, and so does the church. But I think we need to give both credit for the areas in which change has occurred.

At the same time, there ARE moments when I wish the whole church thing would just go away. But in the end, I think I'd be the poorer if it did.

Nat

Pope Rat is so 19th century!!

Nat,

I know that there are degrees of bigotry among the various religious groups and some groups in which queers face no disrimination at all. But, I find it deeply painful that so many queer people are willing to accept a second-class status in order to belong to a particular group. There are so many options. We can join inclusive religions, start new religions, or move beyond religion altogether. Perhaps people who are willing to accept such a status don't deserve better. I think they do deserve better. But, their thinking has been so twisted that they come to value the approval of some ideology more than they're own self-worth and equality. It sickens me that so many queer people choose to be mewling apologists for the very ideologies that have caused our oppression. I find their behavior bizarre and irrational.



I agree that we have made incredible progress. But, as you point out, the progress is of secular origin and some religious groups may eventually catch up. Our progress has been in spite of religion, not because of it. Everywhere and every time we make some progress, it is in the face of religious opposition. If Christianity (for example) has some special insight into the truth, why did Christians never notice that queers are fully and equally human until now? If these kind of important insights originate outside of the religion and have to be retroactively imposed on it, it is obvious that the religion is a barrier to our progress.

My hope is every queer person will come to believe in his/her own equality and worth and refuse to support any organization that lacks this basic insight.

Memphistn,

I'd have to agree 99% with 99% of what you say! But with the caveat that believing in one's equality and worth is a good place to begin changing organizations that do offer much good. I think you'd be amazed at what we've accomplished in the Episcopal Church, (especially?) here in Seattle.

Some, perhaps most, religious organizations remain pretty homophobic. But at the same time, I'd miss the beauty of the liturgy, the sense of community, and all the social programs we have that are doing good. So we have changed things - largely by refusing to settle for second-class status.

Maybe we need to throw out the baby and the bathwater - but let's save the tub!

May I add that your sort of criticism is a very important part of the process?

Nat

Mephisto -

Have you read Richard Dawkins book yet?

Well written and worth the time.

Rob

try 9th

and as a former Episcopalian-I just left the church after our dear presiding bishop sold us down the river for peace among the Anglican Communion, I don't see the Episcopal Church doing much of anything except for placating the liberal and conservative wings so they'll remain as members

the more I thought about the Episcopal Church, the more I was struck with its policy of separate but equal

you have dioceses where women can't be ordained as ministers let alone openly gay men and women

I'm checking out a UCC congregation in my town-I like it so far.

It's a very politically progressive congregation-They're trying to get enough people to volunteer at the city food bank so they can keep it open for another Saturday a month. That right there is what being a Christian is all about. It's giving of yourself so that you can make this place just a little better than how you found it.

memphistn....you say that you are greatly pained that queers would continue to remain second-class citizens in religious groups and point out that the "church" has practiced many years of oppression and discrimination against homosexuals. However, hasn't the United States as well done that??--blacks, women, gays, native americans, and other minorities have all faced struggles against legal discrimination during our country's history. Today, we still can't get married and many would consider our lack of full benefits a sign that we are second-class citizens of the United States. But do you exhibit the same type of hatred for this country as you do religion?

Nat,

In many aspects of life, we are second-class citizen because we're queer. This is true at work (usually), in the political arena, the military, etc, etc, etc. In all of these arenas, we have to expect some degree of discrimination but they are arenas we can't necessarily avoid if we want to work, participate in the political process, or serve in the military. I believe we will continue to make progress in all these areas (again, in spite of the best efforts of religious groups) but for now, I can't create new employment laws, political system, or military establishment by declaration. However, as I say so often, I can find a inclusive religion, make up a new religion that isn't bigoted, or move beyond religion completely right now. It seems insane to me to volunteer for extra discrimination--especially when there are so many better choices. By simply turning our backs and walking away from religions that teach homophobic bigotry, we can eliminate a small part of that discrimination from our lives instantly. I honestly don't understand why anyone would do otherwise.

SteelResolve,

I don't hate religion, I find it absurd. Without the homophobic, sexist, racist, etc bigotry and political activity, religion would just be an amusing eccentricity like belief in leprechauns or a fair tax system. You make good points about the failures of our own culture and government. However, the existence of the United States is an objective reality. The claims of religion are fictions. We all have to work within the framework of objective reality but religiosity can be quickly cured with basic critical thinking skills. Religious beliefs perplex and sadden me, but I'm otherwise unconcerned. It is the active bigotry and discriminatory political activity that religions seem to inevitably inspire that is the problem. And, just as I am not offended by others' beliefs in leprechauns, gods, gorgons, and angels, I hope no one is offended by my frank adherence to objective, empirical reality.

ITJock,

I prefer Dr. Mephisto. I'm still chuckling about that one. I haven't read Dawkins books, yet. They are on my ever-growing reading list. Thanks for the recommendation.



Meanwhile, the blessings of religion continue to shower down.

Sorry - couldn't resist...

but it was sort of unfair making it a tri lingual pun...

not too many people in the US have even heard of Moonspell, or Enigma for that matter, to say nothing of knowing anything about Faust these days.

The Dr M label is also GREAT... Love it... I have never watched SP (I know, I know... I just don't watch any TV unless it is the news, a game, or a movie), but I looked it up and it gave me a chuckle.

R

I think it's important to realize that yes, we're fighting the good fight for equal rights, for fair treatment under the law, and to educate and enlighten those ignorant of the great spirituality that exists within the homosexual experience. But being gay is being different from the so-called norm and that alone is a fascinating experience. Living a life uniquely only grows more appealing as the years go by...

I wasn't raised religiously so the Bible to me is a two thousand year old piece of enormously popular fiction often portrayed as absolute non-fiction. I don't believe it's more accurately inspired by God than the next spiritual tome, it's just been far more impactful and long lasting. Anyone's creative ideas can be described as directly inspired by God because well, that's where it all comes from...Yet two thousand years is barely a blip on the radar screen of humanity. The words of the Pope are to me like the words of any major corporate CEO - all about the branding and self-preservation. I greatly respect the right to choose one's religion but their anti-gay propaganda should never be taken personally...they've yet to evolve or to be intelligently designed..

The difference is this. Faith is your believe in God without proof. Religion is your system of believe or how you choose to worship. Many of these denominations 'systems' do include bigotery and discremenation. And what makes me sick is that they use the words of the bible as weapons against other groups they deem inhuman. They never take responsiblity for their hateful thoughts or actions. They just hide behind the bible, or worse, their own interpitation of it.
As for me, I have never been or ever will be a religious person. But I have always been and will continue to be a very spiritual person of faith. After all, God gave me life and made me the way he wanted. And yes, he will take it away when he sees fit. So the only one I have to answer to is him.
So I just try to be an honest, decent man of good-will. And in this crazy world we live, I think thats just about all God could expect from us.

I always try and remember that faith belongs with that which is lasting...everything we see and pursue in this lifetime is temporary, impermanent...but that which is lasting: love, belief, faith, spirit, joy, etc...is what i have faith in...

In a rare expression of interfaith unity, Russia's Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews agree that gay=bad.

Has anybody here been to Moscow lately? My last trip was October of 1990. It was still the USSR, but three months before the collapse.

Anyway, about the upcoming Gay Day Parade in Moscow, I predict it will be as it was last year, with a herd of religious and anti-gay hate mongers unleashed upon the event.

It will be UGLY.

TRL

Colorado papist leader upholds the Bible and 2000 years of traditional doctrine to support General Pace. "He said that homosexual acts are wrong. And of course he's right." In a related story, gay papists continue their support for the world's largest homophobic hate group.


Christians endorse Romney.

Queer protesters arrested on Christian seminary campus.

Moscow, hell most of Russia these days, is ugly.

It is a land of huge contrasts between the (mostly criminal) haves, and the have nots.

Crime is institutionalised, and the government is totalitarian in the worst sense.

The police are a corrupt joke. Payoffs are the norm just for driving through 'checkpoints'.

Attempts by the political opposition - on the right and left who are strangly united in opposition to the govt - to rally even minor support in the past few months have been brutally suppressed. Most important political opposition leaders are in jail. Garry Kasparov has actually emerged as one of the gov'ts largest opposition leaders who is still at large. Political rally's and marches have been BRUTALLY put down with mass arrests of even spectators and foreign press.

If you go near a march in Moscow these days the very least you can expect is a beating and time in jail. IF you yell loudly enough that you are an American, and demand to speak to the American Consul, I am told you may be released to them fairly quickly and just asked to leave the country.

We have a lot of business there, but I don't travel there - no smart businessman does - without bodyguards and a driver; and I never go anywhere near the gay scene there.

On the other hand business is BOOMING over the past few years, and prices in Moscow are some of the highest in the world - think prices in Tokyo. The 'nightlife ' is also some of the wildest, most vibrant and decadent party scenes in Europe. or in the world - think Berlin these days - but there is no such thing as a 'safe' gay hangout.

The elite (read incredibly expensive - they have already paid off the police - but you will still probably be shook down after leaving) gay clubs are open at all times. Cheaper gay discos are full with a mixed gay and straight teenage- 20's crowd. Cruising places known as 'pleshkas' swarm from sunsett till dawn. None of them are 'safe'. It is EXPECTED that you will be shaken down by the cops, the criminals, the gangs, or all three. Yet the gay scene still survives, and is even booming, even if it is mostly 'underground'.

Public attitude to such meeting places varies from feigned ignorance to open contempt. Gay bashing, called "remont" ("repair") in Russian, is common. The "militia" ("police") are very reluctant to meddle with gays and if you happen to be a victim of violence or robbery you are most likely to be denied official protection. Most people are poor and consider all foreigners to be rich and easy prey.

I do not recommend going without a knowledgable guide.

I would not recommend going to Moscow for a political march unless you want to be a martyr.

Rob

Did anyone see the brilliant South Park ex gay episode?

Lesbians shocked by homophobia in the world's largest politically active homophobic hate group. In other news, blacks shocked by racism in the Klan, Jews find unexpected anti-semitism in Nazi party.

Homophobia in Episcopal Church inadaquate for retired bishop. Bishop finds refuge in the world's largest politically active homophobic hate group.

Did any of you watch The Daily Show about this ex-gay therapist?

I did and I laughed my ass off.

Colorado papists oppose gay adoption rights.

Papists believe gay marriage to be evil. Gay papists all over the world comfort themselves with the knowledge that supporting the bigoted papist agenda is far more important than social justice or their own integrity.