Just heard the full T.H. audio clip myself, and I actually laughed out loud.
Like others here, though, I actually appreciate his honesty on the manner.
At least gives us something concrete to work with rather than vague or veiled "concerns" -- straight up homophobia to deal with and discuss thanks.

T.H.'s blunder also silences critics who would complain about gay advocates "playing the queer card."
And yeah, he's a total douche-tard...

Re: black homophbia, bucco and YellaDawg are both right on.

My additional two cents: It's not any more OK or any less offensive for white people to be homophobic than it is for black people (or any other people) to be homophobic. To say essentially that "Blacks should know better" would seem to suggest that white people are hopelessly homophobic...

Further, the argument that blacks (or latinos, or third-world immigrants, etc.) *should be* less homophobic falls flat when you consider that political and commercial forces actually seek to pit minority groups and LGBT people against each other. Bayard Rustin is a perfect example of this.

And as you consider the rapid urban gentrification of poor and/or minority neighborhoods into posh homo digs, we can reasonable expect the relationships between presumably affluent "gays" and working class people of color to continue to grow in complexity.

Even with that all said, I would suggest it's not even accurate to hold up T.H. as an example of black homophobia. I think his hatred comes from a place of class and privilege.

As a white man living in Detroit,MI. for over 45 years,I can't relate.I live in a city with an abundance of Tim Hardaways.

He is a moron. What do you expect from someone who cannot string 2 sentences together. He is ignorant. Even if you have those feelings, keep your damn mouth shut. All the endorsement money has just gone flying out the window. The car wash and the wings place he owns might as well close down. There were protesters in front of his car wash today. I just feel bad for his son who is embarassed by his dad.

Usually when someone has so much hatred of anything or anyone ( blacks. gays. latinos ect) its because they have something to hide.

Good points B-Man. I definitely knew about the forces that pit minority groups against each other but i didn't even think about the urban gentrification part. So again...this is a very layered and complex subject.

The story is going to be on ABC Evening News in a couple of minutes "Exposing Intolerance in Pro Sports"

After listening to a tape of the interview this guy comes across as an ingnorant fool. He can barely pronounce homophobia. But this should not be a surprise to any of us; as gay men we have all encounter a similar brand of idiot.

I hate the way some of these anchors say "homosexual" Charles Gibson almost sounded a bit shaken up when he said it.Geez!





Be careful how you talk to my fantasy man!

I'm waiting for Fuhrer Pope Bendict XVI, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps (& the likes of them) to go on a [verbal] rampage about Amaechi & gays in general.

Are you by any chance a subscriber to the WSJ site? I'd like to read this entire article - if you can, maybe you could pm me this article? (No, I'm not racist - but I am black. I have a morbid curiosity about these topics...)

Sorry to derail such a serious topic, but....

John Amaechi Comes Out As An NBA Player

You can always count on The Onion. Can't wait for an article on Hardaway.

Same here. I thought he sounded like so many of the guys I grew up with and tolerated for years.

Then the pain set in again. And now I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Eventually I'll think of something appropriately PC to say but for now I'm just enjoying reading all the controversy - both pro and con.

Hardaway has gotten Amaechi more publicity than he ever could have on his own. The issue I thought was already becoming jaded even for some of the non-gay community who support gays.

He is obviously a person who does not think very deeply, or with much empathy, about things in general. When I first heard his comments my first thought was that if he has any children then I pity them far more than him. They have learned the worst sort of behavior and hatred.

I spent quite some time seeking out opinions from the major press and blogs. The variety is incredible if predictable for the most part.

It is at times like this that one begins to find out who ones true friends are. I think this is a good opportunity.

John don't listen to these Onion people! I bet you were awesome!

Maybe he's still a little bitter about all of those NUDE PICS and VIDEO FOOTAGE of him getting dressed in the locker room that has been in circulation for a few years now. I watched them again last night and I see that his intelligence isn't his only "shortcoming"!

that's an insult to douchebags

gentrification by affluent gays into working class black neighborhoods was highlighted in a documentary a few years ago by some totally with it lesbian filmmakers:

http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2003/flagwars/


and i just have one question for all of you...remember when tim hardaway "had skillz"?

oh where did you go...joe dimaggio...

I heard about the T.H. fiasco this morning on my morning commute to work while listening to sportstalk950.

I agree with alot that already has been said. I think T.H. voices the opinions of alot more people than we think, although not as harshly. These people don't care for us, but are hiding behind the curtain of P.C.

Most of the callers to both local sports stations think T.H. went too far in proclaiming hatred but at the same time most comments about gays were neutral at best. The typical comment is something like, "I don't care what they do in their personal lives as long as they don't bother me" Makes us sound like lepers if you ask me.

On a positive note for Outsports, all this gay athlete talk is giving them some pub and free advertising. The sportstalk950 personalities actually mentioned the OS website and talked about the page refering to the top 16 NBA players likely to be gay. Perhaps more web hits will be forthcoming

I think Hardaway is the new John Rocker. Maybe, they should hook up.

Amaechi's reaction:


I LOVE this guy!

The perfect illustration of this point the ongoing outrage of the Shirley Q. Liquor controversy and the general silence of the white gay community. For those that don’t know, the Shirley Q. Liquor controversy refers to a gay white drag queen (Charles Knipp) who performs in blackface (literally) portraying racist stereotypes about black women as so-called “welfare queens”. He tours the country going to gay venues and puts on this modern-day minstrel show. He’s been doing this for years and has appeared as an invited guest/entertainer at “official” gay events, like Southern Decadence. More recently, the character of Shirley Q. Liquor made an appearance in cartoon form on the pilot episode of Laugh Out, which is the first interactive, gay-themed comedy show.

If the proverbial shoe were on the other foot, if Sizzle, ATB, Winter Explosion, or other black events had black performers in whiteface portraying racist stereotypes about whites, the panties of the gay press would be in a twist. Their response (and that of gay leadership organizations) would not be the silence that had generally been the case with Shirley Q. Liquor. Needless to say, gay black men performing racist skits in whiteface certainly would not be featured on Laugh Out, or any other gay white media.

Blech, reading the comments sections of the articles about Hardaway's statements is nauseating. I'd like to have some of those people say those comments to my face instead of from their computer screen so I could tell them to f**k off in person.

The funniest thing is that some people criticize those who are critical of Hardaway for being "anti-free speech". Funny, last time I checked having free speech means taking responsibility for what you say.

EXACTLY...and thats why I constantly check out KeithBoykin.com and Rodonline.typepad.com. Those are two places I know I'm going to be able to find things like that discussed. Look, I'm not ignorant to what Outsports is and what the predominant population of the members are. I'm not expecting to find that kind of stuff on here. I love sports and this is a good site to discuss a wide range of sports related topics with other gay men. However, Yella Dawg does make a point of how black homophia and Isaiah Washington as a particular example are talked about "ad nauseum" on this site, yet examples like Shirley Q. Liquor are not mentioned at all. Furthermore, GLAAD FINALLY came out with a statement condemning Shirley Q. Liquor within the past couple weeks. Meanwhile, this fool has been doing this act for the past 2 1/2 years. I guess we see where "Brownie" has ended up after the Katrina fiasco. Better late than never, right? And people wonder why there is a need for separate gay pride parades and events that are black oriented? Please. Here is an excerpt from Keith's website on the issue.

Shirley Q. Liquor

We have had very high traffic, especially today since people found a Randy Boyd column from 2001 where he speculated Tim Hardway was gay! Even we had forgotten about that one.

This Shirley Q. Liquor shit has been going on for more than five years. I remember black protestors shutting down one of Knipp's shows in Manhattan in 2002. It's quite telling that it took GLAAD half a decade to open its mouth on this subject. One of his shows in Los Angeles was recently cancelled due to protests, if I'm not mistaken. We need to target the venues and gay pride events that provide a platform for this Shirley Q. f**kery....

The anti-gay list on this site includes quite a number of individuals, many of whom are NOT black and many of whom WERE discussed. John Rocker is just one example.



That's funny because it's been linked on the home page with the Amaechi coverage for a couple of days now.

Not only is John Amaechi going to be doing an interview on our local sportsradio station WIP in the morning (at 6:20 am ), but they actually have an on-air promo running. They don't often do that when they have guests.

Although you keep saying he was listed 16th on Randy's list but the only list I can find lists him 6th. Am I looking at the wrong list?

How did this subject even come up? Was it a reporter who asked whats-his-face the question, knowing beforehand what the answer would be? If so, that's kind of setting up Hardaway for a session of homophobia stupidity. Either way, Hardaway has just kissed away a small fortune in endorsement deals. I hope it was worth it to him. Hatred is ugly, It doesn't matter how it's packaged, it's just ugly. We don't need any more ugly in this world.

16 is presumably a misprint. Or a mis-something since we're looking at a computer screen.

I have to clarify: there are actually two Randy Boyd columns on who might be gay in the NBA. One of them is the one that I mentioned is linked on the home page. It's a followup to an earlier column (link is at the beginning of that column), which is the one that Jim "forgot about" that mentions Hardaway.

Well, I found my answer.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/bask...s.ap/index.html

At least I know now he was not entrapped into saying something stupid, he really IS stupid. I hope this serves as a flashpoint in the gay community.

Hardaway ignorance is embarassing and it's not like he hasn't said idiotic things before. We're talking about the guy who destroyed a career with ESPN as an NBA analyst by dropping the "F" bomb on air. Hardaway's also a bitter fool who can't get over the fact he never won a championship or wasn't considered the best point guard of his era.

On the other hand, did anyone hear Charles Barkely during halftime of the Lakers/Cavs game? I'm paraphrasing, but he basically said something akin to "Any player or guys who doesn't think they are playing with gay guys now is crazy. I played with gay players. I have friends who are gay." He also said that while Hardaway could be forgiven (a big point of Reggie "cough, cough" Miller), his COMMENTS could not. I gain more respect for the man every day.

Of course, he didn't necessarily OUT Kevin Johnson or Dan Majerle, but someday right?

I added that link today. The other link was to the first Randy Boyd column. I had forgotten the 2nd, the one mentioning TH.

That's sickening. This really goes both ways. Gay people, as a minority, should be more sensitive to this kind of discrimination/mocking. But minorities aren't better than the general population.

I didn't know until the recent GLAAD statements against this idiot that he was actually performing this crap in person. I heard about him years ago when I dated a guy from Richmond who thought he was the funniest thing in the world, but I thought it was a radio bit (which only makes it a slight bit less offensive). It was actually part of the reason the guy and I broke up.

Back to Hardaway, I was watching CNN this morning and actually felt sorry for the guy. They covered his latest "apology" (sent through, and probably conceived by, his agent) and had a clip of a reporter interviewing Hardaway at his front door. The guy looked like he'd been through the wringer, and said something along the line of "it's been a long day and long night, and it is going to be another long day." I can only imagine the controversy caught him unawares, and he may have been exposed to some of the vitrol he unleashed with his comments. For the first time I thought maybe he will really re-evaluate his own feelings.

Hey guys -- need a little help from you. I'm thinking about responding to this thread about Amaechi and Hardaway on one of the badger boards. I was curious to see what posters there might be saying about the topic -- and made the mistake of reading the thread.

Basically there are three arguments being made:

1) Most pro and college athletes are uncomfortable with having gays in the locker room -- so therefore they shouldn't be there (or at least be out there)

2) Several guys admitted they too would be uncomfortable having a gay guy in the same locker room getting nekkid and showering.

3) It's OK to feel this away, since unlike being born black, gays choose to be gay -- the proof?: a poll shows that a plurality of American think so.

So -- I kinda wanna reply -- but my initial response comes off as snarky and bitchy -- and I don't wanna come off as a snarky, bitchy gay man. (cue George_vf or Joe in Philly: "But you are Blanche, you are ..." ).

Can you help come up with something that's intelligent, insightful ... perhaps funny?

My snarky bitchy ones are:

1) Well, I'm not a pro or college athlete so have had no experience with the dynamics of the locker room. I would hope that -- esp. on the pro level -- since these are "professionals" -- that as long as the gay teammate is getting basehits, defending the post, making the tackles -- that they wouldn't care. but I doubt that's the case.

2) Sorry dude -- get over it. We're already on this board, we're in your locker rooms: at the fitness facilities on campus, at the Y in Sheboygan, at every Bally's gym in the greater M'waukee area. (how really can you argue against that sort of fear?)

3) Wow - -that's really irrational. I truly hope you're just a fan of Wisconsin sports and not a graduate of the school since that's not the sort of analytical thinking I was taught when I studied there (is that snarky enuf??) So most people think gay is a choice? I don't care what most people think -- I'd rather trust the experts -- the science.

Most people may think that the world was created 5000 years ago in six days; that Red Lobster is a fine seafood dining experience; that Seinfeld was funny; that Forrest Gump deserved its Oscar .. doesn't make them right!

THANKS FOR LETTING ME VENT. I probably actually won't post over there: I made a vow only to post on the Badger sports related threads -- and never elsewhere there. And it would very much violate my Number One Rule of the Internet: "Never get in a p*ssing match with a skunk."

CBSChiago interviewed KevinB at CREW last night, re: Hardaway

http://cbs2chicago.com/video?id=30068@wbbm.dayport.com

OK, I'm sure most of the posters making this tired old "locker room" argument never even played competitive sports in college or professionally. So, since I DID play two sports for a Div 1 NCAA college team, my sister was a semifinalist for an Olympic team one year, and my dad played pro ball, I might -- just might -- have some real insight on this locker room thingie.

Real athletes really don't spend that much time hanging out in the locker room, or thinking about what goes on in the locker room or the showers. We're too concerned about our games. We spend probably about only 3% of our time in the locker room, and far less than that in the showers.

Why these supposedly heterosexual men are so preoccupied about what goes on in the locker room and the showers is beyond me. Perhaps they should examine that.

I don't want to get off-track, but I disagree about Shirley Q. Liquor. Humor is an entirely different beast all together. What some people find funny, others find offensive. You could say that about a majority of humor. RuPaul supports Shirley Q. 100%, so it's not a black-and-white thing.

RuPaul? Please do not use RuPaul as an example. RuPaul has NEVER been a friend of the black gay community. She's always been "cooning" for the white gay folk. I am not shocked at all by her support of a blackface stereotypically racist character.

Why would it puzzle you that a member of a "degraded" group - your words, not mine - would take another persecuted group's struggle so lightly? From a black, gay male perspective. I've often wondered the same about the gay community. From my humble perspective - and many men of color will back me up - white gays should not attempt to take the moral high ground when it comes to bigotry and prejudice. The gay community is amazingly racist. When was the last time YOU were asked for 3 photo IDs to enter a gay bar while white patrons were admitted with no ID check at all. I've participated in several protests and demonstrations against bars and gay organizations who made entry for blacks, women and other non-whites more difficult to obtain. There is a reason for a lack of "diversity" in many gay ghettos ie., The Castro, West Hollywood, Chlesea and Provincetown. Gay people of color are told by the way we are treated that we are not welcome there and most of us don't want to be where we are not wanted - so we splinter off. Quite a few gay men of color do not relate to the gay "community" and it is easy to understand why. Don't get me started on the branding of black men with the "Down Low." The former Governor of New Jersey was black? There are other examples of everybody doing it - but tag the blacks with it. Ever take a look at online gay personal ads? There is a much higher ratio of white gay ads who are not into blacks or asians than the other way around. Granted personal ads are not a major cause for alarm; yet, few other groups use the internet for contacts to the degree that gay people do. The amount of ads and personal "preferences" wink-wink are indicators of the "comunity" at large. As much as I enjoy this site, and looking at men in general - I reluctantly check out the photo galleries because I know 99% of the men featured are going to be Caucasion. Few blacks, fewer Hispanics and almost no Asians. Whether you realize that or not - and frankly, most white guys do not realize it - but that does send a message. It is part and parcel of the larger truth. I'm not defending Tim Hardaway. He disgusts me with his self-righteous and arrogant attitude. I basically hope he suffers a bit and perhaps learns something. I'm also not attacking the gay community - or any community. I'm trying to point out what you are probably not aware of and that your point of veiw cuts in two ways: A gay person making racist statements or acting in racist way - which happens all too often - is no better or worse than a black person - likewise happening all too often - making homophobic statements.

That has always baffled me. These guys ARE ALREADY showering with gay teammates, they just don't know it. So why would things change if someone comes out?

The website Sportspickle has a spoof on this:

You are really crossing the line.Obviously you have just as many racial issues as you do gay issues and your reaction is borderline offensive.Especially using words like "cooning"

When I would shower at my gym in Oregon, I was startled, baffled and quite frankly appalled by the rampant nekkidness of the straight dudes, especially those who knew I am gay.

Dudes, I don't want to see all that. Seriously.

Going to sit around in your towel on watch golf on the big screen TV?
CLOSE YOUR LEGS.

Thanks for asking about my holiday break.
PUT SOME CLOTHES ON FIRST.

Yeah, I am going to that same meeting.
BUT ASK ME WHEN WE'RE NOT IN THE SHOWER.

Seriously - I used to work at University of Oregon and most administrators worked out a gym downtown rather than on campus. I was totally out at University of Oregon and I had not one but TWO straight co-workers who would interact with me in the lockerroom and shower totally naked. I had never, ever used the lockerroom or showers at a gym before, so this totally took me by suprise.

And grossed me out.

My humor aside, most soldiers and most athletes will tell you they get into the lockerroom and/or showers before anyone else or after everyone else is done in order to avoid any drama, and they regulate every possible glance so as to mitigate against any concern they were "checking someone out."

Tell that to the knuckleheads who think they're so f-cking hot, we *must* be staring at them... and then tell them, "You're not that hot."

And even if I check a straight dude out at the gym (which I don't), so f-ing what? When they start apologizing for oggling women, and give up the male privilege that allows to hoot, cat call, publish an SI Swimsuit issue, and air "30 Seconds of a Hot Chick" on Spike, I'm might maybe then think about taking straight men's lockerroom and shower fears more seriously. (I am, of course, overstating myself for dramatic effect, but we all get the point)

A lot of homophobic guys like Tim Hardaway, who are aggressively outspoken against gays, have strong (if suppressed) homosexual tendencies of their own, according to psychiatrists.

Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

"Internalized homophobia

Internalized homophobia (or ego-dystonic homophobia) refers to homophobia as a prejudice carried by individuals against homosexual manifestations in themselves and others. It causes severe discomfort with or disapproval of one's own sexual orientation.

Such a situation may cause extreme repression of homosexual desires. In other cases, a conscious internal struggle may occur for some time, often pitting deeply held religious or social beliefs against strong sexual and emotional desires. This discordance often causes clinical depression, and the unusually high suicide rate among homosexual teenagers (up to 30% of non-straight youth attempt suicide) has been attributed to this phenomenon."

Maybe, Hardaway will join Congressman Mark Foley and Reverend Ted Haggard in rehab?

I've made similar vows, and broken them.

If you decide to reply, I say go with what you already have. It's not really that snarky and it makes good points.

You have to put yourself in their shoes to show them how to remove them (guy with initials JC was allegedly good at that. You remember him: robe, sandals hung out with guys in the woods preaching love and stuff about 2000 years ago).

And in the news by, for and about ESPN,

Page 2 columnist Mary Buckheit comes out as lesbian and slams Hardaway for his lack of professionalism.

Chris Broussard, who blogs for ESPN The Magazine and claims LZ Granderson as a friend, considers sin, sexuality and civility.

Great interview yesterday on ESPN-TV -- Amaechi on Hardaway and his ilk. "He has emboldened those who would be bigots."

What an amazing interview, I'm getting more and more impressed with Mr. Amaechi at every moment. I don't know when I have heard anyone, celebrity, sports figure or, certainly, a politician be so completely frank, honest, and right on the money. He may have been, as he said, an average NBA player, but I have a feeling he is going to become a very important voice for equality.

I did have a problem, though, when an earlier ESPN piece had an interview with the radio show host, Dan Levitar (sic?) who originally interviewed Hardaway. The host was making a legitimate point that a lot of pros may be saying the politically correct thing in response to a hypothetical question, but give them the actual situation, with a real teammate, and all the resultant publicity, and things might be different. But he also mentioned the possibility of "flamboyantly gay" writers from Out magazine, or something similar, coming into the locker room and asking the gay teamate who he's attracted to on the team. I mean really, how stereotypical can you get? It may have been a slip of the tongue, but it certainly did not sound to me like he even had the contemplation that there might be sites like this or actual gay journalists who are sports fans and would regard the chance to be in a professional locker room as a huge career opportunity, not a pornfest.

I respectfully disagree with Amaechi on this. TH came across as so idiotic, hateful and ignorant that I don't think he emboldened anyone; look at the ridicule TH is taking for this. He helped shine a light on the raw homophobia that still exists, but the utter lack of anyone backing him up publically is a sign that progress has been made.

Jim,
I respectfully disagree with you to an extent.There are no "big names" backing up Hardaway's statements but those select few homophobes that hang around the water coolers all across the nation feel just a little more smug than usual.I've heard it first hand just in case you are wondering.I personally think,even though John was a "basketball" pro,he's batting a 1000 in my eyes!

John just finished being interviewed on HBO's Real Time with Bill Maher. He is just so witty, intelligent and grounded. Of course it's easy having an advovate like Maher doing the interviewing, but a nice interview all the same.