A veteran of Unity'94, I had greatly enjoyed playing football -- with Team Dallas (the closest I could find to Michigan!). So for the last 10 years I have been planning and scheming to put together a Michigan (or at least Midwest) team for 2006.

You can imagine my disappointment when I noticed a week ago that both chicago2006.org and montreal2006.org did not list touch football as a sport.

I quickly fired off emails to both for clarification. Was this an oversight? Were they working off a list of sports in Sydney or Amsterdam? Surely there was still time to add it?

To date, I have received a response from Chicago saying that it is on a short list of sports to be added -- provided it can be made self-sufficient (either through sponsorship or by paying for itself).

I suspect that this can be self-supporting. It doesn't cost that much to rent or paint a field, flag belts are cheap, and officials aren't that expensive.

But Chicago also asked how many teams can be expected -- like I should know? (:

In 1994, in addition to Dallas, there were teams from NY, Houston, 2 from Los Angeles and one from Australia. Alas, it has been too long and I've lost contact even with the people from Dallas.

I recall hearing of leagues forming in San Diego and Chicago, and a couple people have given me pointers to Boston.

So my hope is that some of the participants in this forum either participate or are familiar with such teams and leagues.

So the first question (and let's deal with all others later):

Is there enough interest out there for touch football to be added as a sport in 2006?

[ March 17, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Jim at Outsports ]

OK, I should have checked here sooner.

Since posting the above (other than hosting a small dinner party, we lead such full lives...) I noticed the following page:

http://www.outsports.com/localGroups/index2.cfm

Which found 7 football leagues, complete with links to their web pages and contact email.

Note, the Chicago link is out-of-date. Should be:
http://www.chicagomsa.com/flag/index.htm

Looks like several cities have developed leagues and that GayBowl IV is coming up in San Diego. Awesome! (Maybe it's time to move to a real city! (: )

So there seems as if there's a lot more national organization and cooperation out there. I'm going to send out an email to the contacts to see what they have planned (and also mentioning this thread). If no one else beats me to it, once I receive responses I'll post a summary here.

In the meantime, feel free to use this thread to discuss forming additional teams! (:

Pity it is not Touch Rugby

Hey Eden, I played Touch Rugby in Sydney at the games, were you there too?

Wolverine - as we mentioned before, Flag Football is on our short list of sports to be added (along with Rugby, Dancesport and a couple of others). We're evaluating right now whether we think we can add it in a cost-effective manner. Chicago has a large football league and our local people would love the chance to have this appear in the Gay Games.

I've asked our Sports Directors to respond directly - hopefully they'll do so in the next day or two.

Kevin Boyer
Chicago Games, Inc.
ChicagoGamesInc.org

Tallboi,
yeah - was there, ended up playing ice hockey however.

Do however play with the gay team here in Welly, and played against the POOFTA's when there were here last year

e

Hi Wolverine,

I am one of the Co-Sports Directors for the Gay Games 2006. As Kevin mentioned, Flag Football is on a very short list of additional sports that are under consideration. You are correct, flag football shouldn't be too costly, but we have to make sure that the event can pay for itself. We are currently researching potential fields, costs and number of participants. Be a little patient with us and we should hopefully have an answer for you sometime next week.

We appreciate your input and enthusiasm for flag football.

Thanks,
tc

Let me clarify that the response from Chicago has been great. My only "problem" was that Suzi asked me about teams and, well, I wasn't aware of a network.

A bit like the kid in the commercial where the alien says: "Take me to your leader" -- and I had to say: "we don't have a leader".

But now, less than a week later (in part thanks to OutSports) I know better, that there is a national "network".

I have called on them, they are considering the matter, and with some luck the decision will be made to play the "Gay Super Bowl" in Chicago as part of the Gay Games.

Which means we'll all have to get busy and make it happen.


A corrections and clarification:

The OutSports link I provided to search football teams won't work directly. To search for any teams go here:

http://www.outsports.com/localGroups/


Also, I had said:

> (Maybe it's time to move to a real city! (: )

I meant that *I* should move. This was a weak attempt at humor maligning Detroit, not any of the fine people here or elsewhere.

Only 852 days before kickoff! (:

- Leeron

Keep in mind that I don't play football, I'm just friends with some of the guys that play flag football here in Los Angeles. But why bother with flag football in the Gay Games if it's only going to be American teams? There's already a yearly Gay Super Bowl (the one for 2004 is October in Atlanta), so there's already an outlet for the sport.

It's like the question: why is there a soccer tournament in the Olympics when there's the World Cup every 4 years? Sure, the Olympics is for Under-23 only, but it seems like a waste and I know most of the great footballing nations don't take it that seriously.

Gay soccer always makes the GG competition its yearly tournament, and presumably so would flag football.

Jim, you'll undo all my groveling and begging to Kevin!!

[ March 17, 2004, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: LACharlie ]

The Chicago gay flag league is very aware of what's going on and is in touch with GGVII organizers. The national flag group has offered its assistance in putting on a tourney during GG.

:: snip :: why bother with flag football in the Gay Games if it's only going to be American teams? :: snip ::

1) "American" style football is now played in Europe, Canada, and Japan - so it's becoming more of an international sport, just like soccer/football is now played more in the US than it has ever been. I doubt it will be just American teams. 2) Even if it is mostly American, sports are often included in other regional or international sporting events being hosted by a nation - the popularity in the host nation gives that nation an opportunity to showcase the event to the world.

:: snip :: There's already a yearly Gay Super Bowl (the one for 2004 is October in Atlanta), so there's already an outlet for the sport. :: snip ::

There's also an International Gay and Lesbian Aquatics championships - except in Gay Games years when the Gay Games serve as the IGLA championships. One thing being considered is to have the Gay Games serve as that year's Gay Super Bowl.

:: snip :: It's like the question: why is there a soccer tournament in the Olympics when there's the World Cup every 4 years? :: snip ::

People participate in the Olympics because of the Olympic spirit, the coming together of all kinds of athletes and all nations in that spirit. Similarly, people participate in the Gay Games for the competition, but also for the spirit and legacy of the Gay Games for which there is no substitute. So even if there is a Gay Super Bowl and a Gay Games in the summer of 2006, there will still be those who value the Gay Games experience.

Kevin Boyer
Chicago Games, Inc.
ChicagoGamesInc.org

The national gay flag group has discussed holding the 2006 Gay Super Bowl as part of the Gay Games, like some other sports do. In the 1994 Games, there was a team from Sydney that had a ball. Also, nation-specific sports have always been a part of the Games. Sydney 2002 had touch rugby, for example, and that is clearly a game played mostly Down Under.

I think the lesson here is that we need to get things figured out and (not to be too presumptuous) let the rest of the world know that Chicago'2006 will include American Football -- which will give them 2 years to get ready and put together their own teams.

As Jim said, Sydney already has experience from NY'94. Surely Britain, Netherlands, Germany, etc., could pull together teams?

RE:Touch - it is actually a Commonwealth sport - so is much more widely played than you think. So thats "Down Under" if you include Samoa, Tonga, Niue, Fiji, Cook Islands, PNG, Kiribiti, Naru, the Solomons as well as the SANZA countries and the UK

Infact I have this vague recollection of Fa'fa'fine rugby games before the Peter Fatilofa testimonial

As opposed to flag football...

Eden - I believe that this thread is about "Flag Football" - which is the "touch" version of American-style Football (at least I've heard Europeans call it "American style" to differentiate it from soccer, which others call football but we call soccer - eeesh).

Chicago is considering Rugby also as an additional sport.

was just pointing out that it was a little "americocentric" to expect the world to play your game.....

Eden - I don't understand this comment. There will be a full sports program represented in Gay Games VII. Some of those sports do not have a large amount of US participation and some do. Each Host city has offered up additional sports that were popular in the Host country as a way of broadening appeal for that sport and giving the hometown participants an extra boost. Flag Football is certainly something that is popular in the US, but it is also popular elsewhere. Did you call it "australo-centric" when Sydney offered rugby, a sport much more popular there than in other parts of the world? It's not like we keep track of medals by country or anything - it's all about participation, right?

They could, but why would they bother? Why would someone go through the struggle to put together a team for a sport that is beyond fringe--and in the case of Britain, openly mocked and disdained--in their country just so American teams can beat them 84-0? Maybe countries with a strong rugby tradition like France would do it, but it's going to defacto be an American thing, I would say.

I saw the Sydney team in 1994, and while they were a great group of guys and cute as all hell, and while it was cool they put out the effort, I don't get any enjoyment out of seeing people get steamrolled in competitions, becoming cannon fodder for the teams that actually play the sport.

[ March 20, 2004, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

So it's not about participation?

One could likewise say that the LA teams rolled over everyone in NY'94. LA had teams and leagues whereas the guys in Dallas, Houston and NY were just a rag-tag group pulled together for the Games.

So the LA teams rolled over everyone (but each other), everyone rolled over Sydney and most importantly, I think everyone had a lot of fun (Dallas didn't play Sydney, but I heard they had fun playing).

Obviously no one is going to be forced to play against their will. If there is interest elsewhere, great. If not, it will be an American thing.

But if there is interest, and if the non-American teams are truly more amateur than their American counterparts, they can be bracketed to initially play each other.

(Um, are Canadians American? (: )

Are you really suggesting, Jim, that the Gay Games only offer sports where the sport has an equal footing in all countries that participate? I think the purpose of the broad (could be broader) nature of the sports program in the Gay Games is so people from all over the world can participate in, or spectate at, sports with which they are familiar and sports that are different. Sometimes this leads to the introduction of a sport into a country where it wasn't popular before. Curling, for example - never really popular in the US but wildly popular in Canada - now has some really good teams in the US.

I could see rejecting a sport because it didn't have a following anywhere, but you seem to be suggesting that just because a sport is popular in the US and not elsewhere, therefore it shouldn't be offered in the Gay Games.

I also think you sell flag football teams in other countries short. Or maybe you're giving the American teams more credit than they are due. I highly doubt you'll see an 84-0 Gay Games Flag Football score. Unless you're playing, of course (evil grin - just kidding).

I guess i am grasping it from a different end of the participation stick....

...was thinking it would be like us hosting the games and including Kapa haka and then saying "your welcome to compete"

would it not encourage participation to include non-american games, rather than expecting the world to try to learn a new one?

From a practical point, its hard enough for gay teams to raise money for mainstream sports - it would be a greater difficulty to add a sport that is obscure south of the Rio Grande

as for being Australocentric ... am a Kiwi - so being called an Australian is rather insulting...

secondly my earlier post suggested that touch is slightly more universal than you realised. Its not just played on either side of the Tasman.

Um... Quick Eden, someone forgot to tell North America that the Poms won the Rugby Union World Cup!!!

For those who don't know, last year, the Rugby World Cup (which is considered one of the biggest world sporting events - 40-50 countries competed from memory) was held here in Sydney. This should not be confused with Rugby League (which is the big televised version in Australia). The Big Names in RU are Britain, Australia, France, South Africa, New Zealand and a couple of South Pacific Island countries. It really is a major international sport, and at the Sydney Gay Games, we played touch rugby, which is essentially Rugby without the scary tackling... But, with a lot more running...

So, never suggest that Rugby, or for that matter, touch rugby, is principally a down under sport... For that matter, one of the 911 heroes, Mark Bingham played Rugby Union, for those whose memories are short... wink

Mark Bingham also played flag football!! I played with and against him - we collided several times!! It was wonderful!! lol!!

No, fine, offer it in 2006 in lieu of the Gay Super Bowl, but don't pretend that it's anything other than an all-American thing. If teams from anywhere outside of North America participate, they WILL be cannon fodder, they WILL get stomped 72-0. I'm sorry, I just don't find anything "inclusionary" or fun about that. I think it makes a mockery of the whole competition.

In 1994, I played softball. LA Charlie had a team that I played in the outfield for; we were a "C" team. Due to "luck of the draw" we had to play one of the elite teams, a team from Los Angeles that flew in guys from the south and the midwest etc. We got stomped 34-2 (I think that was the score) and it would have been worse if the other team hadn't let up and the mercy rule. I can safely say that it was one of the worst days I've ever had in sports, bar none. It was humiliating to be cannon fodder like that. Sure, I "participated", but I wished I hadn't.

Eden - I feel like we're having 2 completely separate conversations. Sorry about that.

First, if New Zealand were to host the Gay Games, I WOULD expect that there would be sports popular in New Zealand that would be offered in some capacity. Provided with the rules and some advance notice, teams would come to play, even if they got slaughtered. Not everyone plays sports solely to win.

Second, there are several sports in the Gay Games that are popular worldwide (swimming for example) and sports that don't have a tremendous following in the US (badminton). You can view the full list of core sports at GayGames.org .We are also proposing to add Rugby and Dancesport, both sports that do not have a huge following in the US, though both are growing (in part because of international exposure like the Gay Games and the Olympics).

Third, we are not REPLACING a core sport with Flag Football, but proposing to augment the program with Flag Football. As such, there is no need to raise money to play Flag Football if that's not your thing.

Finally, if you'll re-read my "australo-centric" comment - what I was asking was whether you would call the Sydney Gay Games "australo-centric" for offering a sport - Rugby - that was more popular in their country. As such I wasn't calling YOU an Aussie, but questioning your use of the term "amero-centric" in a previous post. That said, I'm kind of surprised to hear you'd be insulted to be called an Aussie. When I'm in Europe people seem to presume I might be German and I'm not insulted, just as I wouldn't be insulted to be called a Kiwi or an Aussie.

[ March 22, 2004, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: KevinB ]

Jim - I think you'll find that teams from many different countries participate in Flag Football and that several will be competitive. But I get your point and I think you get mine.

There is certainly the question of ensuring that teams compete in divisions that are appropriate for them. I think the key there is not to avoid sports where people get slaughtered, but to try and find the best way to ensure that competition is set up to allow for the best experience for all. We're exploring ways to do this - softball and volleyball being good examples - because no one likes to be on the losing side of a lopsided score that was the result of such disparate skill and experience levels.

Hey - I think your mistake was hooking up with LA Charlie. He posts so much on Outsports, he's clearly doesn't have time to be an athlete also! wink

Jim...you are right, many of us just HATE losing or getting slaughtered no matter what the sport.

But there truly is more to it than winning. I played basketball for the Chicago team that took 4th place at Gay Games IV in New York (we missed a medal by 2 points!). There were two European teams that participated in the men's pool. Both teams were absolutely horrible and many of them were just learning the game - needless to say they got pounded. But I can tell you they truly had a BLAST and enjoyed their experience. The folks that I met on both these European teams were SO friendly and were SO happy to being playing this 'American' sport and representing their countries. It was an awesome experience to see them so delighted, especially given the fact that they were crushed every game.

It's all part of the process of introducing a new or unfamiliar sport (one that may be popular in one country, but not another)with the rest of the world. Basketball is one example, look how much it has grown in Europe and worldwide - it was never this way 15 years ago. If you take a look at a current NBA roster, you would be amazed with the percentage of Non-American players.

[ March 22, 2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: CHIathlete ]

I was part of the '94 LA team that beat Sydney. The score was 42-0 at half and the score was stopped. We then played the second half for fun and had a blast. The Aussies were terrific sports and understood that US football was new to them and they acted accordingly. They got their revenge a few days later in a friendly touch rugby game in Central Park. The experience summed up what the Games are supposed to be about.

Our 1994 Devils softball game against the Straycats was a function of poor organization of the tournament. NAAGA softball resolutely ignores the Gay Games and since they limit non-gay players to 2 per team, FGG excludes them for being the only gay sports which excludes straight players [this applies only to the Gay World Series which is always held the 2nd or 3rd week of August]. So, they sort of improvised a tournament at the last minute. [Chicago won't do this, I'm sure.]

Anyway, I told the coach of the Straycats that if they were mean to us, I'd pull the team and they'd get a 7-0 forfeit. They needed 35 runs to stay even with the Atlanta A team for the gold medal, so they were nice. We scored 2 runs - even had a triple! That was more runs scored against them than by any other team in pool play! The coach later told me that he had asked his players to write down their best memory of the Games, and five players mentioned the Devils game.

I'm sorry Jim had a bad time, and it was undoubtedly my failings as a coach [the Devils evaporated after the Games]. I thought we had fun that game, and I was proud of everybody. I agree with Jim about this sort of thing being the essence of the spirit of the Games. NAAGA softball is so rigidly segregated that players of different skills [and genders] barely see each other if at all.

I remember the first soccer tournament in Denver in 1987. My LA Suns team were down to SF 0-6 at the half, and barely managed to avoid double digits for the game 0-9. In Vancouver in 1990, we beat them 1-0 for the gold medal [it was their first defeat in gay competition].

Football is the same. LA Motion won the gold medal in 1994, and was unbeaten until last year. In 2002, we beat Boston 72-0 in the Gay Super Bowl, but last October they beat us 29-20 for our first loss in nine years [they were at home and unleashed their secret weapon - blowing rain off the Atlantic - lol!].

We can tweak teams, include strays [even from Detroit!!], do what it takes to have a great competition.

Hey, I'm working not to be a homeless stray this time around. And so far have about 15 people interested, so it looks promising that Gay Flag Football is coming to Michigan!

On the other hand, I tracked down the guy in Columbus (OH), and evidently he was unable to garner sufficient interest and is now into hockey, but I'm still gonna try and convince him to use the momentum of the Gay Games to try again!

I have not yet received a response to the email I sent NY nor to the women's team in Flordia.


Since we've been discussing levels of play, let me ask 2 quick questions (short answers are perfect).

1. Should I work to interest (er, "recruit") a [gay] 7'2" center, who played for a Top-25 NCAA team, to play Basketball?

2. I have a friend interested in playing Tennis. How competitive is that?

1) Yes - get him to play football, too!!
2) Very

Updates:

1. I have found a gay football team (playing in a straight league) in Winnipeg.

2. I (finally) received a reply from Montreal, as follows:

"Thanks for your interest in Rendez-vous Montréal 2006. We have been working on the sport program for more than 2 years now and has it is a lot of work, we don't plan to add anymore sport. The sports we added (like rowing and dragonboat) were sports we were already working on."

So it looks like we were on the right track all along (for whatever reasons) and hopefully the Gay SuperBowl will take place in Chicago as part of the Gay Games.

Wolverine,

I came across this discussion as I was browsing through the website. I do not know if you are familiar with the SDAFFL. You wrote about San Diego previously. We are the Flag Football League here in San Diego. This is our first year of having a league, but it has been successful thus far. In regards to several questions that you had mentioned prior to: (if you have heard this then I apologize).

1) In answer to your question about Flag Football being an organized sport in the up-coming Chicago Gay Games. The last e-mail that I got about 2 weeks ago stated that Flag Football was to be added as an official sport. There was no mention with it being in-lieu of the Super Bowl or replacing the Super Bowl all together.

2) Do not know if you have checked-out our website: www.sdffl.com or if you know that San Diego is holding a flag football tournament May 1-2 2004, dubbed Surf-n-Turf. If you did not know this, then I extend the invitation to you to look around and if you all want you all are more than welcomed to put a team together and bring them to sunny Southern California, for this great event.

If it sounds like I am trying to sell this to you..well I am one of the Co-Chairman of the tournament along with the coach/captain of one of the league teams. You may know the other Co-Chair and commissioner (Ivan Solis)...?

If you have any questions with regards to leagues, other teams, or the tournament. Please feel free to e-mail me.

Hope this helps you out.

Thanks,
John Hernandez
Co-Chairman: Surf-n-Turf
San Diego American Flag Football League
Coach/Captain: Hamburger Mary's Cowboys

The process by which an alternate sport is added to a Gay Games sports program is pretty simple, but takes a while. First, the sport has to be deemed viable - meaning it will have significant participation, and can be run in a financially viable manner. Second, it needs to fit into the overall sports program. Adding a sport that as too similar to an existing sport wouldn't make sense, for example.

Chicago's sports committee determined that Flag Football met both of those qualifications and the Chicago Board voted on March 9 to seek approval from the FGG to add Flag Football to the Sports Program. The Sports Committee then had to prepare paperwork that identified venues, scheduling, sports directors, divisions, any sanctioning or organizing bodies, and submit that information to the FGG Board of Directors for approval. This was submitted about 2 weeks ago.

The FGG has finished its voting on our request to add Flag Football and we will announce the results on Friday of this week (Apr 9). Yes I know the results of the vote and no I can't say yet .

Some Chicago representatives have already discussed the possibility of having Gay Games VII serve as the Flag Football Gay Superbowl. It's an idea that's been floated but not one that's been decided, especially since we still had to go through the process to add Flag Football to the sports program. It seems like a good idea to me, but I can certainly appreciate the other side of that argument. We'll let folks with experience and knowledge make that decision.

Hope this helps. Stay tuned for the announcement on Friday.

Kevin Boyer, Chair
Marketing Communications Committee
Gay Games VII - Chicago 2006

[ April 07, 2004, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: KevinB ]

Sorry Kevin, did not mean to step on anyone's toes. We will anxiously await Friday's decision.

John

I used to play flag football (and tackle if any one was up for it) and rugby and soccer until my hips gave out, then I returned to my first love, wrestling. Which is what I plan to compete in at Gay Games VII.

I think one thing to remember here is that the list of sports for any Gay Games is never static but always changing. Partly this is done to draw on local interests (just as the Olympics do), but also it is a part of an evolutionary chain: as flag football gets more exposure, it gets a chance to get more players and down the road could apply to the Gay Games to become a permanent core sport. Think of the growth of other gay sports since the Gay Games started in 1982 and all of the international organizations that have sprung up out of that.

Also, because it might be difficult for some programs to bring in full teams, you should stay in touch with each other and consider forming teams just for the gay Games. If you look at results from past Gay Games, you'll see several examples of teams made up of players from different cities or even countries.

Thanks for explaining the process, Kevin.

Hey, it's almost the end of Friday. Well?!?!

John, thanks for the invite to San Diego... I'm looking at flights even as I type this. It was too soon for me to put together a Michigan team (which is in the works), but I have been messaging Jeffrey about officiating.

I've also been talking to other people (anyone who would listen) and spreading the word about gay football, encouraging people to form teams/leauges and participate.

News Release – 9 April 2004
Contact: Kevin G. Boyer, (773) 561-2704, kgboyer@ix.netcom.com

5 New Sports Complete
2006 Gay Games® Lineup
Rugby, Darts, Flag Football, Billiards and DanceSport Added to Program

CHICAGO, IL – The Gay Games VII Sports Program has been expanded to feature five (5) new popular sports. Athletes will now be able to compete in Rugby, Darts, Flag Football (American style), Billiards (Pool) and DanceSport (Ballroom Dancing) at the Gay Games scheduled for 15-22 July 2006 in Chicago, U.S. The five new sports were selected after a thorough review of available venues, interest from potential competitors, the sports legacy of Gay Games I through VI, and financial viability. The Federation of Gay Games (FGG) Board of Directors approved Chicago’s request for the additional sports in a vote that concluded this week.

Click for Full Press Release .

Kevin Boyer
Chicago Games, Inc.
ChicagoGamesInc.org