Yes, the fifteen minutes I watch were of McGwire especially refusing to say anything but, "I'm not here to talk about the past." Lawyer beside him. Of course Sosa and Canseco had lawyers too. Schilling and Palmiero seemed to be going it alone, and Schilling seemed the most open.

The topic of adapting the Olympic Drug Policy of 2 year suspension for first offense was widely applauded by the players, supported even. Yeah, now they say it. I say, add the return of money to the penalty, then you have something.

shore said: " Schilling seemed the most open"

That's because Shilling hasn't done steroids. As John Kruk said this week on ESPN during a spring training game between the Cards and Braves...
"I had the pleasure of seeing Shill in the showers during my days in Philly, and that man has never done steroids in his life."

I thought that was funny

Yes, I believe Schilling is there because he is to lead a national awareness campaign regarding the topic.

But Schilling sounds like he is very much toeing the party line. The MLB party, that is. Even the congresspeople have commented that he 'sounds like a politician.' I'm wary...

Considering how "otspoken" Schilling has been in the past on steroid use, I was surprised at how timid he was in his comments. Fascinating moment when McGwire was asked "Mr. McGwire, you have stated that steroid use is bad for you. How did you come to that knowledge?" he didn't answer even that rather innocuous question, choosing to plead the Fifth Amendment. But most interesting to me was Congress calling for zero tolerance, Selig saying he's in favor of zero tolerance, and then Fehr standing behind the need for collective bargaining.

~Adam

Gentlemen,

I think many here may know my opinion of Herr Selig and company, an opinion shared by several other board posters. I also do not have much love for the players. I don't dislike them; I just don't give them any thought off the field.

Having said that, this entire hearing is a frickin' joke. It's a complete waste of time and a blatant example of Congress overstepping its authority. Don't they have anything more important to do, like, say...oh, I don't know...trying to get our soaring budget deficit down from the stratospheric heights to which Bush has driven it?

Congress has no right to butt into what also is a private collective bargaining agreement. You can argue long and hard about Baseball's steroid policy--it's a joke; but the policy should be Baseball's concern and not Congress's.

These clowns on Capitol Hill are acting quite like their counterparts in the McCarthy hearings. Those who do not realize this are blind to what is really going on. This is a ridiculous show trial too eerily similar to what Congress did to Hollywood people during the McCarthy hearings.

Every MLB player, along with Selig, ought to not show up at the hearing and tell Congress to shove it.

Love the title of this thread.

I saw part of the hearings and yes it was unusual how McGwire chose to go with "sexual preference" first when trying to show his respect for certain categories of people. That came out of left field. But we appreciate the acknowledgememt Mark, I guess.

Why was Schilling speaking a mile a minute? I was comprehending Sosa better that Schilling.

[ March 17, 2005, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: amazin12 ]

McGwire is getting killed in the NYTimes today. Deservedly so, in my opinion. I suspect any future public appearance McGwire makes will be riddled with boos. Question: will McGwire make Hall of Fame? Without direct proof, I assume he will. I wonder what he thought last night, when it was all said and done, if it was all worth it.

Flame away if you like, but Canseco was the only one on the panel that came across as even remotely credible. Even Schilling looked like a liar when confronted with his quotes from the SI article from a couple of years ago in which he claimed knowledge of several players on the juice. He had the nerve to claim that none of his previous quotes contradicted his testimony yesteday.

As for McGwire--DIRTY, DIRTY, DIRTY!!! His reputation is destroyed. What a shame.

But if the public, and the media, and the congress didn't butt in, there wouldn't be a drug policy in the first place. You think MLB and the players want a drug policy? You think they want their players publicly exposed as the cheats they are?

As was mentioned in opening statements, opposing fans used to chant \"steroids\" to Jose Canseco, and this was back in the early '90's. Yet basebally didn't outlaw steroids until 2002... but didn't start testing for them until... now! Yes, they've done tests for a few years, but they were annonymous tests, and nobody was exposed even though the initial tests revealled 11% usage. And how many players have been suspended for steroids? And how many records are in the books are tainted? We'll never know...

But if these people really want the \"zero tolerance\" policies they claim to want, then they'll instate an Olypics-like drug testing policy, rather than this loophole-ridden policy where players could conceivably be fined without suspension or public revelation of their cheating.

Edit to correct quote:

In other words, No, McGwire did not play with honesty and integrity.

[ March 18, 2005, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

I must disagree with the Ump on this one. I think Congress has a right to get invovlved in this topic. It's not just steroids in baseball, but the general use of illegal drugs in sports. How does it happen, what are the consequences, what needs to be done about it? Sports are a multi-billion dollar entreprise in this country and when the leaders of a sports franchise condone, accept or turn a blind eye to illegal and harmful activities something has to be done. We expect government to protect society, not only children, but everyone.

Yes, there are other topics of greater concern, but there are topics of lesser concern to which the government must respond, like traffic lights at corners, fabric content of children's clothing, or public displays of religious materials. That's what governments do. It's somewhat legislating responsiblity, but in this case, baseball(all those involved) seems to be unwilling to do it.

I can't believe Mark McGwire actually thought evasiveness would somehow protect his reputation. It did just the opposite. I think people would've respected him a lot more if he had been a man and said something along the lines of "I used steroids in the 90's. They weren't banned by baseball at the time and I stupidly didn't pay enough attention to what I was doing to my body, to the game and to my reputation. I'm sorry I did this, and I'm sorry I was dishonest about it for so long; I've learned my lesson and want to share my experience so it can be a learning experience for boys on the dangers of steroids." Personally, I would have respected him for owning up. Instead, his ridiculous non-answers and admonitions that the past shouldn't be dredged up, as well as his outright refusal to say anything definitive about whether he ever used steroids, have tarnished his reputation. He is greatly diminished in my book.

Even more unpardonable is the fact that McGwire, once so hot, has not aged well.

The most repulsive part for me was how Schilling and McGwire gave their opening statements telling us about all their charity work. Who gives a rat's ass? So self-serving. Curt and Mar, your work for ALS and various charitable contributions have dick to do with steroids in baseball.

Also McGwire blubbering like a baby during his statement was just so "Jack McPharland's Improv for Dummies".

The thing is McGwire has not learned a lesson from this. Whatever he did during the 90s benefitted him--he's in the record books, he's credited for returning interest to the game, he's a big name and a big man. He didn't get caught doing anything illegal, so why should he be a man now and say otherwise. Or so that seems to be his way of thinking. It doesn't matter that he is also perceived as a cheat and a liar. And the case is the same for Sosa in my book as well. That whole corked bat story is too ridiculous and I have not forgiven him that either. Cheat.

But there are already laws banning the use of steroids. If Congress doesn't want steroids in sports they need to make sure the laws are enforced. MLB isn't a government law enforcement agency. Instead of the baseball commissioner they need to question the head of the FBI.

In one bit of the hearings I saw on the news, I saw the same type of congressional rudeness I saw the last time there were some hearings involving baseball, where the elected official interrupted someone trying to answer a question. I also saw, despite the prior comments that "this will not be a witch hunt," various questioners tried every which way to try and get McGwire to admit to steroid use. The whole thing was a farce.

Jose Canseco is such a weasel. According to this column: "Steroids are here to stay," Canseco wrote in the introduction of his book. "And believe it or not, that's good news." So anything he said yesterday goes against what he wrote in his book.

Whereas Canseco is a catalyst for this story, he is not the most credible source for information. Watching him yesterday I thought he was probably out back during breaks doing lines of coke or something, his twitches were so prevalent and uncontrolled. Whatever he wrote in his book was simply his idea at the time; I suspect his recall of its content to be pretty minimal. And he should have just said such yesterday, "I'm just trying to make a few bucks here. I wrote what I thought would sell the book." Of course, he didn't say that but I think it would explain his inconsistencies.

Maybe not the most credible source of information in theory, but out of that panel? I definitely think he was more honest than any of the others up there.

Not as a personal attack, but the cocaine comment undercuts your argument by making you look petty.

This is a topic I tend to hear about from everybody BUT baseball fans. I used to be a baseball fan through the 80s and for part of the 90s, but more or less stopped paying attention over the last five-plus years. Had this blown-up when I was a fan, I'm trying to imagine what I would have said. Probably either "These athletes would never do anything like that" or "It's none of your business what they do." Now that I'm not a fan, of course, it's all different.

My honest feeling is that if these guys want to bloat themselves up to 400 lbs and the cost of their sanity, their sex lives, and their years past fifty, I'm not going to say no. And I'll agree with the ump, and go so far as to say that Congress probably doesn't care, either - but there's votes in them their athletes.

LXN

Yep, Schilling made sure to let us know about his campaign to get kids to wear that Coppertone.

I can't figure which was more gripping. The Iran-Contra hearings, the Clarence Thomas hearings or the "Bud Selig and his cast" hearings?

[ March 18, 2005, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: amazin12 ]

I don't really care about what happens to these athletes. It's more about the young fans and the impression that is being placed upon them.

In any other occupation, there is zero tolerance for drug use. Why should this be any different? The message being sent wreaks of doulble standards.

[ March 18, 2005, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Jorel ]

Different private and public employers have different rules about drug testing and what happens if you test positive, depending on the job. Some jobs (airline pilot) will have more stringent rules than others (clerk-typist) for safety reasons. Some jobs require treatment for employees. Usually these rules are negotiated by the union and management. MLB is no different in that regard, except that it is far less important to public safety than the transportation industry.

I'm 100% with Umpire: congress has no business spending their time baby-sitting the MLB.

I'll also agree with folks who say sports should have a zero-tolerance policy for drugs--including steroids.

And, despite the fact that I don't think baseball (or other sports) will see much change until the fans (THE MONEY) demand change (withhold their money), I think the government does have some obligation to enforce its laws about illegal substances. BUT, congress is not the enforcement division of our government. They're not even the judicial branch of our government.

So, as fans, let's encourage baseball to clean up its act. And as Americans and taxpayers, let's encourage congress to spend their time balancing our budget or something that is actually useful and part of their job description!

If I tested positive for steriods in my line of work, I'd be gone in a heartbeat. I would also be dismissed for being gay, although they would drum some sort of charge, likely insubordination. The message they send isn't that if you work hard and you are gifted you will make the grade. The message is, if you are lacking, pump yourself up on illegal substances so you can compete and don't have to work as hard. It's the short way to justify the end product. By the way, doesn't Selig look like a first cousin to the grim reaper?

Another thought....shouldn't our Senators and Congressmen have better things to worry about like homeless, jobless, a growing deficit, and the trampling of civil liberties? or am I just too into the moment to realize that baseball is indeed much more important than the functions that my government is suppose to take care of?

Baseball is a BUSINESS, crossing statelines.j Baseball by it's lack of earlier actions is condoning illegal activity. Congress gets involved. Or would you rather Congress not get invovlved with Enron and the like. Constituents sp?, those who elect Congress are concerned about this topic, like parents who testified yesterday. If those parents go to their Congressmen and raise the issue, you can see how it gets taken up by Congress. Tell a parent whose kid committed suicide that Congress shouldn't be looking into this.

Congress is involved because some 270,000 high school students are on steroids. High school students. And where are they getting these ideas? From the pros, their role models, whom they are trying to emulate.

Said Denise Garibaldi, who testified.

This is a health issue facing the youth of the nation. The gov't would be remiss to not get involved.

When leagues and coaches and trainers and owners and players use, or condone the use of illegal drugs and cheating, that is an implicit endorsement of them. Is it a wonder that kids want to copy this unhealthy, illegal, and immoral behavior?

If the league can tell Sammy Sosa to stop using a corked bat, why can't the tell player X, Y and Z not to use steroids or they'll be kicked out of the league and have their records erased?

------------

And I think it's not just the steroids themselves that are bad, it's what they represent: cheating. If you're condoning cheating, and lionizing cheaters as heroes, what message does that send to young people?

As was mentioned in the opening statements, players who were cogniscent of plans to throw the 1919 World Series were banned from the game forever. Not just the cheaters themselves, but the people who were aware of the cheating, such as Shoeless Joe Jackson. One strike. Banned for life, even if you yourself wasn't the cheater... just the knowledge of cheating was enough. How low have our ethics and standards of morality fallen since then.

As for other sports, I believe it was mentioned that a first offence in the NFL is a 4-game suspension (1/4 of the season). In Olympics/World Championships, first offence is 2 years. I believe in baseball, you have to cheat, get caught, cheat, get caught, cheat, get caught, cheat, get caught, and cheat again and get caught again before you get 1 year.

[ March 18, 2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

But the vast majority of those 270,000 teenagers are probably not athletes, let alone baseball players. Most steroids are taken for purely cosmetic purposes. Why restrict this inquiry to baseball? While we're on the subject of businesses that condone steroid use, let's take a look at professional wrestling, bodybuilding competitions, muscle/fitness magazines, and Hollywood (how many times have you seen actors suddenly bulk up for a role?). And what about the NFL? BALCO wasn't researching undetectable steroids for baseball players. Why aren't the four Oakland raiders connected with BALCO up there? Where's Marion Jones?

By the way, I'm a little skeptical about this suicide stuff. Is there any statistical evidence that suicide is more common among steroid users? Males age 15-24 commit suicide at a rate of over 20/100,000, so there should be at least 54 suicides per year among male teenage steroid users. I can't help thinking that every decade has its suicide scapegoat. In the eighties, it was Dungeons & Dragons.

Edited to add:

I'm not saying there aren't real hazards associated with steroids. In particular, they've been associated with elevated blood pressure, and heart and liver damage. I'm just not convinced of this suicide angle that's been so popular in the press lately. I don't really see what this congressional inquiry is going to accomplish. Do you really think toughening up major league baseball's steroid policy is going to have asignificant impact on steroid use in the general public? Steroids are far more prevalent now than they were before the NFL banned them.

[ March 18, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: JC ]

Sorry...still a McGwire fan...steroids or not steroids...maybe it's those massive hot arms!!

Question: Should Mark McGwire go into the Hall of Fame? Should Barry Bonds?

Certainly the numbers (in Bonds' case, esp.) say he most definitely should.

But Pete Rose (and his 4,000 hits) are not in the HOF. Is that because cheating is OK, but gambling is not? Or is it because using 'performance enhancing drugs' are not cheating?

Technically speaking, it's because Pete Rose is banned from baseball and McGwire et al are not. Being banned from baseball is what makes Rose ineligible. If he were reinstated I think he'd eventually get in.

If I had my way, the steroid boys would not be in the HOF either.

I think SF nailed it by saying the fans aren't voting with their money. Well, in fact, they are. Baseball was in a major slump attendance-wise until the athletes started beefing up and belting them out of the park. And suddenly, the fans showed back up. So, yeah, maybe the athletes are tacitly telling the high schoolers that it's OK, but the fans are tacitly telling the athletes that they PREFER the game hopped up on steroids.

Oddly, Colorado's baseball team used to belt homer after homer in the mid 90s. Now, nothing. Wonder if they cleaned up their act before everyone else? No, they probably just stink.

LXN

ps I haven't seen the exact quote from McGwire. Can someone spell it out for me? Thx.

[ March 18, 2005, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Lexington ]

Little wonder this stuff is attractive to kids, nevermind the bodybuilding affects:

Even non-athletes would be tempted by \"frequent or continuing erections\".

Also I heard a doctor on CNN say that the only serious side-effect in adults is testicle shrinkage. I wonder if he read this from a 2000 report:

It's not just kids and athletes that are getting bad advice.

The source

[ March 20, 2005, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

Rap music, violent video games, violent movies, and other such crap has as much if not more influence on our youth than does baseball. Should Congress get involved in all that, too? When will we see Members of Congress subpoena 50 Cent? How 'bout Ludacris? Bring them all in!

I said it before, I'll say it again: Congress has no business getting involved in what is nothing but a show trial.

I find it interesting, by the way, that so many who wail about Congress sticking their noses into things are applauding Congress's involvement in what should remain an issue for MLB to resolve.

Interesting, too, that Congress through their anti-trust exemption is partly responsible for creating this monster known as MLB.

[ March 19, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: MLB UMPIRE ]

The committee that held these farcical steroid hearings is the same one that issued the subpoenas in the Terri Schiavo case: the House Committee on Government Reform.

What government reform has to do with either of these cases is beyond me.

[ March 19, 2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Come on America, grow up. Do you think that the Famous Babe Ruth wouldn't have taken an enhancement if it were available for him??? And furthermore how do we know that he didn't.

Sterling

MLB Umpire, I don't know if Congress should be involved either. And I agree that, so far, the congressional hearing have been nothing but a show. But the MLB has known that there has been a problem for years, and chose up until now, to do virtually nothing about it. It's bad enough that many of the batting records have been tainted so much that it's become a sick joke, MLB knew that there was illegal activity going on for years. And we should leave it to MLB to fix their problems?

I disagree that the call of MLB to Capitol Hill has been just a show. I think progress, reform will come directly from these events. I hope, expect that MLB will adopt the Olympics' policy of doping. If this comes about it will be directly caused by last week's events.

And anytime McGwire is shown to be the ass he always was is a good time. Now I'm waiting for the astericks.

Booze and food don't count as enhancements.

Shore, while I still think that the congressional hearings are still a show, I agree with you that reform may come about as a result of the hearings. The MLB had over 5 years to do so, but either because they were powerless or gutless, they chose not too. So it was them that "invited" external review such as Congress to help them clean up the mess that they created. If the MLB and MLBPA didn't want interference of their collective bargaining agreements, they should have enacted penalties for steroid use beyond secret slaps on the wrist.

[ March 21, 2005, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: pat125 ]

Seems MLB's medical advisor, who testified before congress, fudged his resume.

And here's a picture of the MLB medical advisor! "Hi, everybody!"



[ March 30, 2005, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

"Hi, Doctor Nick!"

Hi Everybody!

Guadalajara. State University of New York at Stony Brook. Tomato. To-mah-to. As long as he knows which side of the syringe to use. And is able to say "Turn your head and cough."

~Adam

Palmeiro is now saying that "everyone is tainted" by steroids.

Some interesting fallout, from the Associated Press:

"Mark McGwire's induction into the Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame was postponed at the beleaguered slugger's request.

McGwire, who was widely criticized last month for his evasive responses to questions during Congressional hearings on steroid use in the major leagues, was scheduled to be inducted into the hall at a banquet in San Francisco on Wednesday."

~Adam