I met a couple people from the Outgames a couple weeks ago here in New York City. They seem to have learned from both the Chicago and Montreal events. They're not aiming too high, but they're looking to make it a very special event. One big thing is that they're reducing marketing expenditures. Plus, they have tons of governmental support (the benefit of having it in Europe, as are the Gay Games in 2010).

I'm really looking forward to it (and since they don't have American football, I'm thinking about golf

Hey,
I have never been to Copenhagen as of yet and I certainly hope that they have learned something in regards to how not to run a Games. It would be a shame if they did not.

I saw an interesting thing today that was actually blogged a year ago but it seems that it is gathering steam as a blog and gaining more notoriety. The whole thing is about the top 101 people that are screwing up Canada and it actually took notice of the Montreal OutGames and the leader Louise Roy:

http://101people.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html

#88 – Louise Roy
Louise Roy was the CEO of the first Outgames held in Montreal this past summer. The Outgames were targeted at athletes who aren’t heterosexual although apparently heteros were welcome to participate.

This was supposed to be a big event but it turned out to be a financial disaster that you dear taxpayer gets to pay for.

Earlier this month, the organizing committee for the Outgames dodged bankruptcy by mere hours when they were able to obtain temporary protection from creditors who are owed more than $2 million, not to mention taxpayers who are on the hook for $3.2 million dollars.

So what you say? Taxpayers are on the hook for stuff all the time. True enough, but this wasn’t supposed to happen according to the Outgames organizers themselves.

When the Outgames began on July 26, Louise Roy made the statement, "We have already achieved the point of profitability."

“Already achieved,” meaning everything else from here on in is gravy. In fact when the games closed, Roy was saying the games closed with a surplus.

It wasn’t until a government audit in September and a subsequent story in the newspaper Journal de Montreal in November that we learned the deficit (based on the latest public numbers) is 5.7 million dollars.

Did Roy know?

She had to.

Just weeks before the Outgames were to open, the Quebec Government provided an emergency $1.4 million which many believe saved the games from being cancelled. Despite that massive loan, just days after the games closed Roy was claiming the games had actually profited $200,000. Uh-huh.

Taxpayers footed the bill courtesy of the Government of Canada, the Government of Quebec, the City of Montreal, Radio-Canada (French CBC), and Tourisme Montreal. All of these agencies gave millions in either loans, cash or services to the Outgames and they didn’t ask a whole lot of questions. The likelihood that any of that those loans will be repaid is somewhere between slim and none and Slim just left town.

By her own actions, Louise Roy is at best a spin doctor and at worst a blatant liar. More than $8-million tax dollars were poured into the Outgames that was clearly fraught with problems from the get-go. Perhaps in an effort to be sensitive given the subject matter, seemingly no one asked any questions about the financial picture. Roy played on those sympathies and continued to flip off taxpayers to the end.

At the end of the games, Roy said, "Thanks to this financial and logistical support, the 1st World Outgames have and will continue to have a significant social and economic impact for Montreal, Quebec, and all of Canada."

Well, an economic impact anyway. Thanks Louise. Here’s a number you can’t spin. You’re #88.

RE: OutGames 2009-Copenhagen, News:

"Note the Aquatic sports will be the 2009 IGLA championships."

I haven't seen this announcement on the ILGA website. Can you point me to it?

Thanks,

TRL

Hey TRL:
I don't see anything on IGLA's site beyond promotion of their 2008 championships. But it is on the Copenhagen 2009 website and on a number of Calendars of upcoming meets on websites belonging to IGLA member clubs.

This below is from the Copenhagen website:

OUTGAMES 2009 TO HOST WORLD SWIMMING CHAMPIONSHIPS
Paris - The 2009 International Gay and Lesbian Aquatics (IGLA) world championships in swimming will be held in connection with the World Outgames 2009 in Copenhagen, Denmark. The Danish swimming association Pan Idraet and the official host, World Outgames 2009, will jointly arrange the meet.

"A very special thanks to Lars Vestergaard from the Copenhagen Mermates swim club for his work in delivering the winning bid," said Tommy Kristoffersen, sports director for World Outgames 2009.


Swimming is expected to be one of the most popular of the more than 30 sporting events to be featured during the 9-day international festival that will run from 25 July to 2 August, 2009. The World Outgames recognizes the talents, rights and responsibilities of homosexual, bi-sexual and transgender men and women around the world. A wide variety of cultural activities, as well as an conference on human rights round out the program.

Guys

For the Australians out there, Team Sydney was invited to a cocktail party with the Copenhagen people. They were quite open about the costs involved for Australians going to the games (for the USA people, multiply these figures by 0.85 for US$).

The following would be an expectation for Aussies:

Airfare - $3,000 (it's high season - you might get a cheap flight but availability will be unknown)
Accomodation - budget on $250/night (Copenhagen has limited ability to get a good deals on hotels because of the Cruise ship business taking them)
Registration - about $340 - no additional charge for sports

With spending money, normal per diem expenses etc, I think it will cost the average person about $10,000 for 10 days in Copenhagen. If you want to take a partner, then assume somewhere between $16-18,000 for 10 days.

I have a feeling this one is for the super rich only.

Hey Jbal:
Well at least it is not going to be quite as pricey getting to either Copenhagen or Cologne in 2010 out of the North American market. Just for the heck of it I just did a quick check to see what sort of airfares I could get from various North American cities to Copenhagen for late July of this year and these were some of the best fares I was coming up with.

Boston or New York - in the $950.00 - $975.00 range including taxes
Toronto - $1150.00
Chicago - $1150.00
Los Angeles and Seattle - $1250.00 - $1300.00

And that was fares that were showing availability today. Undoubtedly I would have been finding somewhat cheaper fares if searching for availability earlier. (I know I was finding fares from Toronto in the $1000.00 range a few weeks ago). And with the Open Skies agreement taking effect between Europe and North America the expectation is that fares may drop further with more competition on certain routes. Especially if you start seeing some of the no-frills airlines like Ryanair begin service between Europe and North America.

And for teams there are some creative ways to reduce rates as well. For example often airlines will give a free seat for something like every 20 seats booked by a group. So that free seat can be used to reduce the cost incrementally for each person traveling. Or like we did for West Hollywood Aquatics when we did their travel to the Gay Games in Sydney in 2002 we passed along a couple of the free seats we earned with Qantas based on more than 40 of them booking with us, so that they could fly two of their coaches for free.

And in addition to the free seats (some of which went we gave to Team New York as well in 2002) Qantas gave very excellent discounted rates to Sydney in 2002 as part of their sponsorship of that event. I notice that SAS is on board as a sponsor to Copenhagen and are offering discounted fares for travel to the Outgames, that hopefully will help make the event more affordable for more people.

That's my gay sports travel report for today.
...Pat

And the way the US Dollar is tanking, it won't be easy for a lot of Americans to go. I have been to Copenhagen and it is a lovely city but is pricey.

Hey Jim:
Now you have some idea of what Canadians were facing over the last few years when our dollar was down as low as 62 cents US as opposed to the basically on par scenario we are at now. Travel seems relatively cheap by comparison now. For example in 1998 when the Gay Games were last in Europe the Canadian dollar was worth about 70 cents American. So if somebody from the US spent about $1000.00 on accommodation and some spending money while in Amsterdam - that would have cost me over $1400.00 Canadian.

I think that is one of the reasons why most Canadians went for the 3 Star hotels in Amsterdam and not the 4 or 5 Star rated hotels. And I did just get a chance to check some of the hotel rates on the Copenhagen website and it looks like most of the hotels are 3 Star and are priced in the 1100 - 1200DKK range a night which converts to about $225.00 - $240.00 a night Canadian or US at today's exchange rate. Those rates include taxes and at most hotels include breakfast.

Start the fundraising - or get a really early jump on Cologne!
Pat

I am a veteran of several Gay Games. Didn't make it to the Outgames in Montreal because I had been to the GALA Choral Festival there, and did the Chicago Games, and that was enough. I usually treat myself to one big, expensive vacation every year, so I am planning on Copenhagen AND Cologne, since they are in different years.
I have lost touch with my mixed doubles (tennis) partner...so if anyone is looking for a B female in the over 50s, give a holler.

I can't really relate to the long debate on here. I have my complaints about various events, but they don't seem to be any of the ones you are involved in. I love places where gay athletes gather!

Please check the Copenhagen web site for hotel pricing. Using Orbitz or other travel site will give a false price. The prices will be higher in 2009 for Outgames. They know the gays are coming. The Outgames made arrangements with the hotels and all reservations will be centralized. You can get the pricing from the Outgames Copenhagen web site. They have a PDF document with prices and links to descriptions. If they know you are going to Outgames, they will not book you privately, certainly not groups.

http://www.bdp.dk/woghotels.htm

Seattle Frontrunners are booking rooms at The Adina for around $410 USD per night for 2 people. This is not really in the city center, but it has kitchens in the rooms so the runners can save money by cooking in the rooms and stick to a better diet. The Adina is much closer to the Track and Field. They could walk 15-20 minutes or take a bus. Buses are the mode of transport in Copenhagen. They also rent bicycles for around $80 USD per week.

Copenhagen is the 6th most expensive city in the world. http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving.htm
1 beer = $10 USD
1 drink =$20 USD
VAT in Denmark is 25% (value added tax)

They are planning for less athletes in Copenhagen than Cologne. I think they are wiser than Montreal.

Cologne is a beautiful city on the Rhine and has tons of hotels at every price level, but a 4 star hotel will be far cheaper than Copenhagen. Montreal was a sports city, but Copenhagen is not. Cologne is a sports city. Cologne is hosting many sports events at the German Sports University in Cologne. The Track and Field Center is all brand new. It is the only sports university in Germany, and it is the largest sports university in the world.

Thank God Outgames and Gay Games are not the same year this time!

On the non-sports side of the agenda in Copenhagen for the Second Outgames, the International Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce (IGLCC) - have confirmed plans to hold their 2009 Congress in Copenhagen as part of the conference portion of the Outgames. The IGLCC was in many ways given birth through discussions that were all a part of the first Outgames Conference in Montreal in 2006. They just completed what by all accounts was a very successful First Annual Congress in Montreal this past weekend.

The IGLCC will be hosting a Second European Summit this September in London and then will have their 2nd International Annual Congress as a part of the next Outgames in Copenhagen in 2009.

If you want to learn more about the IGLCC here is a link to their website.
http://www.iglcc.com/en/index.php

We have posted an update on the 2009 event. The event is having a hard time attracting corporate money, which is needs to fulfill its budget.

I have no knowledge of the financial situation in Copenhagen. I wonder what kind of success they're having attracting non-cash sponsorships.

Jim correctly notes the approximate cash sponsorships secured by Chicago, but another nearly $10 million in non-cash sponsorships was raised. $7 million of this was the kind of in-kind promotion and advertising that helped create visibiltiy and attract people to Chicago. The in-kind was crucial to the financial success of Chicago. Indeed, where we found we couldn't raise cash to pay for something essential, we redoubled our efforts to find an in-kind donor.

Key to this whole process is going to be a reality check for Copenhagen. I just read an article from an Australian publication that says they're already talking about 500,000 "tourists" (I think they mean spectators) and 30,000 out of town visitors. Montreal also used these kind of numbers, though on a ridiculous scale - predicting 14,000 athletes, 250,000 out of town tourists and 2 million spectators at one point when ultimately had 100,000 spectators according to Montreal newspapers and about 8,000 athletes as documented on OutSports message boards in late 2006. Exaggerated estimated attendance ultimately is self-defeating for the event because it creates expectations that can't be met, and makes people spend money planning for crowd contingencies that don't materialize. Of course, the collapse of Copenhagen, or another huge OutGames financial loss, would be bad for the movement. 6K or 7K athletes, 10,000 tourists and 100,000 spectators (mostly local) is a very respectable event and worthy of financial support by sponsors.

I briefly had the opportunity to hang out at the Copenhagen 2009 booth that the organizers had here in Toronto over the insane Pride weekend here. Their booth was in the same general area as some of the displays for some of the various gay sports leagues in Toronto - so there were a fair number of 'jocks' stopping by to pick up the latest information from Copenhagen during my couple of hours at the booth on Saturday. From my time there it was clear there was a fair bit of interest in the Outgames - especially from some of those who had been among the over 400 from Toronto who went rto Montreal in 2006.

I had a few people ask me if there was still an acrimonious split between the two organizations and I did my best to extol the virtues of both the Gay Gams and the Outgames in as positive a light as possible. I encoraged anybody who indicated an interest in either event - that they should go. And I could not help but notice that the same supportive words for the Gay Games were expressed by the woman from Copenahgen who was in the booth during my time there when she was asked about the Gay Games by a group that stopped at the booth just as I was leaving.

Here is hoping they succeed in having a great event for us next year in Copenhagen and likewise a year later in Cologne.

I know that I have been advising people that Copenhagen accommodation for the Outgames is not going to be cheap and indeed when I've told some clients of what sort of prices we are seeing for Copenhagen there has been a fair bit of sticker shock from some. Others more familiar with prices in that part of the world are telling me the accommodation costs are going to be about what they expected.

A quick check of the copenhagen2009.org website housing list and you will see the following sort of pricing based on double occupancy.
2 Star Hotels - In the 665DKK range = approx. $145.00 a night
3 Star Hotels (of which there are the most rooms availalbe) - In the 1000DKK - 1200DKK = approx $215.00 - $260.00 a night
4 Star Hotels - In the in the 1200DKK - 1600DKK range = approx. $260.00 - $340.00 a night range.

So the reaction from some has been - 'OK let's do more fundraisng to make this as affordable as possible' - which is great, but of course others have had the very reasonable reaction of - 'Yikes - sounds too expensive for me. I think I'll pass.'

Well there may be reason for those people to reconsider as in the latest release from Copenhagen is an announcement about Budget Housing for the Outgames. As soon as I hear more about this - especially in terms of what the actual pricing is - I will pass it along. But at least the organizers are trying to do something to make this more affordable for people and I commend them for that. The main points of the announcement are:
*****
Responding to demand for a wider range of lodging options during World Outgames 2009 in Copenhagen, the World Outgames Secretariat is putting finishing touches on Budget Housing options for World Outgames Participants. The final details and pricing will be announced late July 2008.

The outline of the Budget housing options is as follows:
· Fixed price for the day before to day after World Outgames 2009
· Beds, bed linens, bath towels included
· Shared 4+ persons per room
· Shared bathing facilities
· For groups and individuals
· Near sports venues
· Women and men on separate floors/buildings
· Spaces can be reserved at registration
******
Just over a year to go now!

For anybody in the Toronto area here is some information that may be of interest. Inger Pors - a two time Olympian for Denmark in rowing - at both the Seoul and Atlanta Olympics - and now an Outgames Volunteer - will be in Toronto next week. To take advantage of her presence Team Toronto has arranged a meeting for Wednesday August 6 - so that Inger can fill us in on all the latest details about prepartations for the Outgames in Copenhagen next summer. The meeting will be held at Fire on the Eastside / fly Nightclub at 6 Gloucester Street here in Toronto.

The meeting is scheduled from 7:00PM - 8:30PM and will include a video presentation and a Q&A session. We hope to see a good turn out. This has been put together with very short notice and with this weekend being a holiday weekend here in Toronto it will certainly be a challenge to get the word out to everybody, so we are asking everybody in the Toronto area to forward this information on to any friends or teammates or anybody else they know for that matter - who they think may be interested in attending. Hope to see lots of you there.

Pat

Well - this has to be encourqaging news to Outgames organizers, In spite of very little notice and hence almost no time to promote the meeting, especially with this past Monday being a holiday here in Toronto so almost all the gay leagues were off for the week - again making it tough to get the word out and with a ton of people out of town on vacation - in spite of all that - we got a surprisingly good turn out of 40 people at the information session held by Team Toronto for Copenhagen 2009 tonight.

That is more than we got at most meetings we organized for Montreal or Chicago back in 2006. We would have been thrilled with half that number. And most encouraging for Copenhagen is that when Inger Pors the Outgames rep asked how many of you know for sure that you are coming to Copenhagen - some 30-35 of the 40 people in the room put their hand up.

Those numbers really surprised me. Let's hope that is a sign of good things to come for Copenhagen - from Toronto at least.

Just a quick update on some news related to the 2009 Outgames.

- Budget Housing released - Dormitory style accommodation for 10 nights at a flat rate of 2150.00 Danish Kronar or approx. $410.00US. That's just $41.00 per night and is a HUGE savings over hotel costs in Copenhagen.
http://copenhagen2009.org/Copenhagen/Accom...et_Housing.aspx

- Early Bird Registration discount ends Sept 30th. Registration jumps from 1200.00DKK (approx. $230.00US) up to 1500.00DKK (approx. $290.00US). So save approx. $60.00 by registering before the October 1 price increase. Students 25 or under with a valid ISIC card can register for 1000.00DKK. (approx. $195.00US).
http://copenhagen2009.org/Media/News.aspx?...24-1E6E5A10EC35

- Out Cities - Among the most innovative activities at World Outgames 2009 is the OutCities project. With OutCities, the squares and streets of Copenhagen will showcase the best of queer art and culture from major cities around the world. Artists, dancers, musicians and performers from Amsterdam, Melbourne, Mexico City, Rio de Janeiro, Tel Aviv and Denmark’s very own Aarhus will captivate and entertain with music, installations, events and performances covering themes of gender, identity and diversity. Each of the OutCities will also throw a unique party for everyone who registers for World Outgames 2009.

- the date for the Outgames is Saturday July 25 - Sunday August 2. The Human rights conference portion of the Outgames takes place during that week July 27-29, unlike in Montreal where the conference took place in the days prior to the start of the week of sporting events. Strategic partners for the conference include Amnesty International and IBM. The International Advisory group for the conference include the Conference co-presidents Svend Robinson, Canada - Public Services International and Rebeca Sevilla, Peru Education International
Others include:
- Julia Applegate, United States - board member of the Gay and Lesbian International Sport Association (GLISA)
- Scott Long, United States - Executive Director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Rights Program at Human Rights Watch
- Paula Ettlebrick, United States - Executive Director of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission
- Joël Nana, Cameroon - Alternative Cameroon and IGLHRC Coordinator
- Linda Baumann, Namibia rainbow project, ILGA pan Africa board member
- Victor Juliet Mukasa, Uganda/South Africa - SMUG (Sexual Minorities Uganda)
- Linda Freimane, Latvia - president of Mozaika and board member of ILGA Europe
- Steffen Jensen, Denmark - chair of the International Branch of The Danish National Association for Gays and Lesbians
- Tatjana Eggeling, Germany - cultural anthropologist at University of Göttingen
- Wan Yanhai, China - founder of the AIZHI Action Project and director of Beijing AIZHIXING Institute of Health Education
- John Fisher, Canada/New Zealand - co-director and co-founder of ARC International
- Maya Sharma, India - feminist, activist and writer, PARMA

Lots of other good information on the website at www.copenhagen2009.org

And finally if you were thinking you would rather do one of those all gay cruises in Europe next year instead of the Outgames - you now may be able to do both. Atlantis Events have changed the date of their Baltic Cruise next summer and the new dates have that cruise ending in Copenhagen on August 1. So you would be in Copenhagen in time to catch the last day of competition on the Saturday August 1, the closing ceremonies on Sunday August 2 and all the parties that will undoubtedly be rocking Copenhagen that weekend.

Just got word last week that the Closing Ceremonies have been shifted to Saturday night August 1. Good move - because at least people who have to get home on Sunday to work on the Monday now can do so without missing anything. There seems to be significant interest here in Toronto at least, based on the flurry of travel inquiries we are receiving the last couple of weeks.

Needless to say the shift of closing dates by a day has travel companies scrambling to alter their programs to account for that change. SAS is the sponsor airline of the Outgames and is offering discounts on their flights from the US that also include some domestic United flights to get to the gateways SAS fly from. Details can be found on the latest newsletter.
http://link.etyper.com/r/webversion.asp?TId=38552306450

Also remember the 20% early bird discount on registration ends September 30th.

Throwing on my travel hat here - I did this a few times prior to previous games so why not again.

With recent swings in currency values - with the US dollar gaining substantially in comparison to the Danish Krone - the Outgames are now MUCH more affordable than they were 3-4 months ago. Back in August the price for a typical European 3 Star Hotel priced in the 1000.00 - 1100DKK range a night converted to about $215.00 - $235.00US a night. At today's values that converts to just $172.00 - $190.00US a night. Some 2 Star hotels are now as low as $115.00US per room per night or just $57.50 per person per night based on double occupancy!

Flights if you have a good travel agent with access to some consolidated fares can come in at around $1000.00US including taxes right now from some east coast cities.

The registration cost which previously was topping $300.00US now converts to about $259.00US. Keep in mind that fee not only pays for the sport you register in but includes a bunch of extras including....

The Opening Ceremony at the Copenhagen town hall and citywide after parties, access to the World Outgames Village, Open air performances throughout the city, The Closing Ceremony at the historic Tivoli gardens, Cultural and social events – and at least one free of charge - PLUS

A participation souvenir
A transport pass
Access to selected sports events
A participant Goody Bag
Access to hosted/budget housing
Access to hosted dinners

http://www.cphpost.dk/sport/article/120-sp...n-jeopardy.html

I was wondering how badly the world wide economic meltdown might hurt Outgames organizers. I know lots of other festivals and similar events are in the same boat as sponsorship dollars disappear. Here's hoping they can come up with some efficiencies to keep things on track.

Unfortunately - I'm not immune to the economic mess - so it looks like no Outgames for me this year. Here's hoping that by this time next year I'm not having to write off Cologne too.

I agree. It is too expensive for both, even a year apart. I will skip the Outgames, as before, and stick with the tried and true Gay Games in 2010.

I work with a member of one of the Women's hockey teams from Toronto going to the Outgames and they are all quite excited that it has been announced that the Danish National Women's Hockey team will be participating in the Outgames.

It sounds like the Outgames are doing one last blitz to attract more registrations. This from Ole Udsholt of the Outgames.

For Europeans we can offer a 20 % discount if you register on the weekend of 28. to 29. of March, where we celebrate the 20th anniversary of EGLSF. See attached.

For the rest of the world we can also offer a 20 % discount If you register on the weekend of 4. to 5. of April, where we celebrate the 5 years birthday of GLISA.

Accommodation
We also have a great offer on accommodation during the Outgames, for only 1400 danish kroner for the entire week. More information here:
http://www.copenhagen2009.org/Copenhagen/A...ing/Hostel.aspx
FYI - 1400 Danish Kroner converts to just $265.00US for the entire week! Wow!

I know Toronto is supporting the games in decent numbers. We've booked well over 50 people's flights already with a new request dribbling in every day or two still as of late. And we're certainly not the only agency booking people from Toronto as many of course are booking with their own travel agent or with other online agencies or many I know are redeeming frequent flyer points.

Are there still around people who think that the biggest fraud ever committed in the LGBT sports movement is something that should be celebrated? How sad...

Curious...............

Any one participating on this board going to Copenhagen for Out Games?

Thanks,

TRL

Good question TRL. I'm curious about the level of support - or lack thereof - for the event from different American cities. I'm not involved with Team Toronto any more so don't get any inside scoops but I've heard as many as 200 people from the Toronto area are going and supposedly more than that from Montreal. So Canadians seem to be supporting the event in decent numbers. I'd be curious to hear if many Americans are planning on going.

Unlike the (what turned out to be bogus) registration numbers Montreal released prior to the games in 2006 - as far as I know Copenhagen has not released any registration numbers - so I really do not have a clue as to what sort of numbers they are expecting and from where.

My two friends and I are attending. One friend just took advantage of the 20% discount to North American participants. We are playing tennis and know of at least another 6 other people who will be going as well. We are just looking at hotels right now and finding rooms for about $100US per night. It should be a lot of fun.

Since IGLA (Swimming, diving, waterpolo) is holding its quadrennial championship in conjunction with OutGames, it should be a good draw. But I haven't heard about anyone going. Several people I know will not miss the event.

Have a good time, if you a going.

Hope to see the tennis players in Cologne in 2010.


TRL

As far as I know, Copenhagen has never provided direct answers to any direct question about their registration figures, even when asked by official representatives of the media.

I wonder if Outsports' staff has some information about this. Have your journalists asked this question to Copenhagen and got some answers?

We did ask. They say they have 4,000 registered athletes at this time.

http://outsports.com/jocktalkblog/2009/04/...s-100-days-out/

Thank you Outsports.
Then unless the curve of Copenhagen registrations has a sudden surge, their event may hardly end up having a number of participants higher than the figures of a Large EuroGames. And without the concurrence of the IGLA championships that figure would be even lower.
Was it worth the cancellation of the EuroGames and all the other consequences ?

I think any event held this year would really struggle, whether it's the Outgames, Euro Games or the Gay Games. This year and next year, I'm cutting the people of Copenhagen and Koln a little slack, given the worldwide economy issues.

Certainly, but in different degrees, depending in particular on the value of the brand of the respective events.

The EuroGames would have reduced the impact of the crisis of the economy, being such a deeply rooted event, less expensive in terms of registration fees and in terms of production costs, aimed to attract participants out of a huge constituency with lower average travel expenses, and governed by an organization, EGLSF, with a long history and so much expertise in doing that.

As for the Copenhagen event, it is interesting to compare the aquatics figures to the total. Aquatics participants will represent 15% of the total, while at previous multi-sport events they represented roughly 10%. If the economy was the cause of these disappointing figures, that would apply evenly to all sports.

Are aquatics participants less affected than others by the economy ? Certainly not. This increase in percentage is because they have followed the IGLA brand. For many of them, the IGLA brand represents consistency and quality of the events, for many others it has a very high sentimental value, which -- although "sentimental" -- has very tangible concrete effects in terms of loyalty.

The same kind of value is brought by the Gay Games brand, especially for US athletes. Many people, including on this board, have said how it is “too much to do both events one year apart and they will stick to the true and tried Gay Games”. This shows a choice made in function of the brand.

On the other hand, who is supporting the bare GLISA/OutGames brand today? 1. Only those remaining Canadians who still have a sentiment of revenge because they still believe the lies told by Montreal with respect to the negotiations with the FGG, and 2. only those Europeans who have been bathed into and corrupted by the anti-American feelings of some of their supposed leaders and who were thus made receptive to Montreal’s methodic strategy to ruin the Gay Games’ reputation in Europe.

It’s not rare to hear members of the community saying that they would never “give their money” to GLISA and OutGames after all the evil things they have done to us.

The reasons for the low registration figures of Copenhagen have to be searched there as well, not just in the financial crisis. Some will say that if the peak of the financial crisis coincided with the OutGames registration period, perhaps bad karma is for something in it. Others, more pragmatically, will recognize as a factor for their failure the fact that all the reasons alleged for the OutGames' continued existence have their roots in the negative and not in the positive.

I believe in the Aquatic area, there are 26-28 water polo players going and around 20-22 swimmers heading to Copenhagen from Toronto, myself included.

Hey Endurance - I'm curious - did you do a survey of all the Canadians and Europeans who have registered for the Outgames to come up with that statement? lol. I think you owe a bunch of Canadians and Europeans an apology for that fabrication.

FYI - like you I have NOT heard a bunch of bitter Canadians seeking 'revenge' either. But I have talked to probably about 75 Canadians who have booked flights and/or pre or post Copenhagen travel with us - many going on to Stockholm, Oslo, Helsinki, Oslo and/or Iceland Pride the weekend following the Outgames - and so far I've heard comments like - 'can't wait', 'should be fun', 'I've always wanted to go to Stockholm and Copenhagen - being able to play volleyball too for a few days is a nice bonus', 'this is going to be so cool'.

I can honestly say the only mention of the Gay Games I've heard is from people who are planning on going to Cologne next year expressing their excitement about being able to do the two events on back to back summers.

All the comments I have heard about the trips people have booked with us for Copenhagen remind me very much of the sentiments expressed that I heard from Team New York members when we booked their travel for Sydney Gay Games in 2002 - substituting places like Melbourne, New Zealand and the Great Barrier Reef for Oslo, Helsinki and Iceland this year. Were they seeking revenge on somebody and I just missed it?

Didn't think so.

Good luck to all those who have worked so hard in putting on the event in Copenhagen this year - wish I could join you. Good luck to Cologne next year too. I'm still hopeful I can join you.

You are right, I should apologize for not expressing myself clearly enough.

Obviously my words were not directed to those people who have registered for OutGames because they enjoy participating jn an international sport event regardless of these aspects, especially in absence of a EuroGames this year, nor to those who see this as a great opportunity to combine traveling and participation in a sports tournament, nor to those who do not quite know the difference between EuroGames, Gay Games or OutGames (which is somewhat sad from an awareness perspective, but that’s another story) and so on.

To those who are in that position and who may have interpreted my words as directed to you, please accept my apologies for causing this misunderstanding. You deserve to have a great experience at OutGames in Copenhagen.

In my previous post I was referring to those who were “behind the OutGames brand” in the sense that they were part of the adventure of making the OutGames an established brand, by continuing them after 2006, and who in my opinion were led by bad motivations. And I was regretting that those who, being in leadership positions, could have helped other members of the community making an objective analysis of the situation, did not always do so with the consequences that we all know.

I hope this is less confusing than the previous post.

I support and I have great sympathy for the LGBT sport clubs in Copenhagen too, who are certainly working hard to make the event they are hosting successful. It is a very active community that showed a great sense of commitment to excellence when they hosted the EuroGames.
Unlike some other cities like Berlin, they decided to engage in this route. Not the best decision in my opinion, but I do think that most of them made it in good faith. They do deserve to come out with the pride and satisfaction of having hosted a nice event for their fellow sport mates.

The tourism angle does not seem as important to me. I totally agree that Copenhagen is a wonderful and welcoming city, that Denmark and the other Scandinavian Countries offer some of the best examples wrt to quality of life and that they are great places to visit for their beauty and the openness of their populations. But is an extra travel opportunity worth all of it? And if Copenhagen had organized a large EuroGames wouldn’t that have offered the same kind of opportunities to everybody with less damage?

Thanks for the clarification Endurance. I do understand what you were trying to say the first time better now.

This article fleshes out some of the problems many of us have specifically with GLISA continuing to run events so closely in competition with GayGames.
Those of us trying to support the athletes with an experience with 'critical mass' are having difficulty justifying GLISA's quadrennial OGs.

http://www.edgesanfrancisco.com/index.php?...3=&id=90568

The facts are quite clear at this point and beyond debate.

1. Montreal 2006 walked out of negotiations with the FGG when they refused to comply with requested financial controls, audits, and reforecasts.
2. The FGG re-awarded that GayGames to Chicago.
3. Montreal created GLISA with a handful of Canadian and European supporters to gain legitimacy and mimic the FGG/IOC model.
4. Montreal went under to the tune of ~$5mil as predicted by the FGG budget projections.
5. Even if Montreal had registered ALL of Chicago's athletes at either registration fee, Montreal would have still lost ~$1-2mil.
6. Chicago GayGames, with much FGG angst & budget blood on the floor, broke even.

When I evaluate the incredible depth of grass roots policy research in 26 years that the FGG has done on sports, I challenge GLISA to show what they have done other than to reBrand existing events, and increase the overhead expenses.
Show us the years of research, white papers, and policy on Sports Development issues, not generic GLBT Human Rights Conferences, SPORTS!
Don't show us an annual meeting that 'chooses' an event just to become a parasite on it (as the Link above illustrates).
Where is the pass through of $, sponsorships, data, etc..?

Simply using what the FGG has created in a kind of 'me too-ism' just does not inspire me, and certainly does not cut it with serious sports organizers.
GLISA is a reBranding shell created and continued out of petty personal spite.
Better Copenhagen were a full blown EuroGames.

I am supporting Copenhagen wrestling because WWB supports -all- wrestling clubs and that is their desire.
I will do my damnest to get some NorthAmericans wrestlers there.

At this point team organizers have to look at the costs of travel to OGs and GGs and make a decision based upon 'critical mass' competition.
At some point all of us have to be honest and ask GLISA to discontinue their quadrennial competition with GayGames.... it is hurting all of us.

Hey Gene:
Tapping into your experience and expertise I'm wondering about your thoughts on this. Assuming you are correct and there should only be one big international event i.e. the Gay Games - once every four years - do you support the regional events such as the event planned for 2011 in Vancouver in the North American region and like the event in Melbourne last year continuing? Basically events in non-Games years that are regional, modelled on the success of the Eurogames - taking place in North America, Asia-Pacific and perhaps in the future in latin America for that region.

I guess the idea there that there be one big quadrennial event and either one regional event in each region two years later or perhaps like the Eurogames used to be when they had a 'major' regional event two years after the big quadrennial event and a 'minor' regional events one and three years after the quadrennial event. I know that Team Berlin has ben campaigning for there now to be oly one quadrennial event - but they suggest keeping the 'new' regonal events branded for now as GLISA events. Do you think that has potential to be a good solution to this issue - and perhaps a face savin way for GLISA to agree to the Gay Games being the only big quadrennial event?

Hi Pat...
Thank you for your question.

There is a place for these regional events as long as they are kept to a scale that does not discourage hosts from bidding or athletes from registering. One of the points made in the Brigham article by Roberto was the significant IGLA Championship registration fee differential between Washington DC (IGLA alone) and Copenhagen (with the GLISA brand). I need to be convinced that Copenhagen and IGLA are getting something worthwhile from GLISA for the 100% increase in registration fee.

Every sport has its own set of special needs depending upon the demographic.

Swimmers for example are a huge group, and they could support multiple huge events every year, because there are far too many of them to ever try and get them all together at one time..... e.g... GayGames always has to limit swimming registrations, and the slots fill up fast resulting in 'wait-listing'. GayGames would need 2 weeks of dedicated top notch pools to accommodate all the swimmers who want to register... not gonna happen outside of Los Angeles. So the alternation of varied types and styles of competition would be great.... e.g... One year it could be Masters 35-55 in Paris, the next year Seniors 55-100 in Miami, etc... All leading up to some sort of qualifying event the year before GayGames. I am sure someone has thought of this kind of differentiation already, because we see mainstream doing it already. The other issue IMHO is finances. Swimmers tend to be more middle/upper class, and can more easily afford these events. It is one way to support more events without them being expensive quadrennial 'catch alls' in competition.

Wrestling is at the other end of the spectrum.. The demographic is definitely more blue collar, and more likely NOT to travel internationally UNLESS there is a guarantee of 'critical mass' competition. Wrestling by its nature requires the other bodies of like size, gender, and age. 'Critical Mass' is what makes or breaks a wrestling event. Therefore more annual opportunities are a double edged sword. While the local/regional tournaments do well because they are inexpensive and 'team building', there is no way we can support an international quadrennial sized GGs and OGs within two years. It will always be too expensive for more than half the wrestlers. Just like Chicago and Montreal were too close in dates and geography to share a common wrestling registration, Copenhagen and Koeln will suffer the same fate of splitting and spoiling the pie. Chicago had 100 wrestlers/100 matches.... an amazing tournament. Montreal had only ~20/20. It was a sad day for wrestlers to have the family split by politics.

Once word of the by sport registration is out, the probabilities for more registrations depends upon the sport.
Swimmers on a waiting list would probably pick up the slack if GayGames numbers were low.
But with wrestlers, it would depress further registrations, and probably trigger major cancellations.

So my recommendation would be to encourage going back to what we already had prior to GLISA's globetrotting coBranding scheme... i.e... ONE major GayGames quadrennial, local/regional multisport events, sports specific events, etc... There is PLENTY of opportunity and political will to do this right for our community once some of us let heal the scars of Montreal 2006. IMHO, GLISA needs to rebrand and refocus OFF of these quadrennial OGs. They lost the battle of registrations & success in 2006 and disgraced GLBT events. Copenhagen 'should' be the last OGs.

IMHO, we already had lots of smaller local regional tournaments that are right-sized, inexpensive, and FUN.
In the Wrestlers WithOut Borders (WWB) calendar, there are GLBT and mainstream tournaments every month all over the world to service the very elite to the novice of every age, weight, skill level, and gender.
I personally had the most rewarding experience in a decade at the Antwerp 2007 EuroGames Wrestling just being a competitor for a change.
It was right-sized, inexpensive, and FUN! (cost me from SanFrancisco ~$600 total !)
This past month, the US Veterans Nationals Wrestling in Las Vegas saw the Chicago Cyclones of GayGames 2006 fame win the Team Championship.... a remarkable feat, with many 'out' gay wrestlers from Philadelphia, Chicago, and Los Angeles taking medals.
A right-sized, inexpensive, and FUN event. (cost a NorthAmerican ~$300 total !)
At the end of May, the WWB Championships will be held in San Francisco in conjunction with a 24 year old tournament going back to the first GayGames.
Again, a right-sized inexpensive FUN event! (cost a NorthAmerican ~$300 total !)

The current problem IMHO is the incredible hype, pressure, and expense of trying to make Copenhagen OGs and Koeln GGs comparable quadrennials on the par of an Olympics. This artificially hype drives up the costs for the hosts, the athletes... registration, travel, and housing... discouraging many who might have done both events if one were just a local EuroGames.

IOWs, if Copenhagen were just a right-sized EuroGames like Antwerp or Barcelona with reasonable registration expectations, they would be better off budget and registration wise, and so would the athletes. But this feud is unnecessarily fueling the bitterness, raising costs, and replacing that 'critical mass' exhilaration we need as a minority within a minority with a diaspora.

Funny that Pat asks this question. I have been thinking about all this for a while of course, at least since I learned about the letter of Vorspiel and I have been writing down some personal thoughts for some time. I posted them in a new topic of the forum Gay Sports Movement, as it seemed more appropriate.

Roberto Mantaci
Honorary Life Member of the Federation of Gay Games

Thanks for the thoughtful post in the other board Roberto and thanks for your thoughts Gene. Just a quick Copenhagen update - I've heard registrations have just passed the 5,000 mark in the last few days.

lmao

Yeah..., unfortunately, after the Montreal experience it is not easy to believe any number.

[By the way, speaking about disinformation. Did you know that Montreal had 18,000 participants? Or that Copenhagen "was selected to host the second World Outgames in 2009 after a competition with several other cities", while in fact to my knowledge it was the only city to bid? Check http://www.kickitout.org/846.php This is not the first media I see reporting these things, so I doubt that this is due only to poor fact searching by the journalist.]

However, it would be interesting to know for instance whether this number counts someone who has registered for two sports, or for one sport and another activity, as one or as two participants.
And also how many of those registrations are for the Conference, for the Yoga Workshops, for the Queer Tango festival, for the Out Choir Festival, for "Out in Leather" or for Visitors and how many are truly for participation in the sports programme.

Regardless, even 5,000 participants spread over 38 sports (which I think is the largest number of sports ever seen in such an event) may be going to make some of the tournaments quite "shallow", as some have said...

Hey softballstud and endurance - I have no way of verifying that the 5,000 is an accurate number or not but it seems fairly reasonable. From another source who was in Toronto for the IGLTA conference I was told that the North American numbers are just around 1,050 of which 500 are Canadian and about 550 American. I was told that those numbers are unique individuals - but do not know if it includes or excludes the conference attendees.

And please don't blame me if those numbers turn out to be wrong.

Ouch! It sounds like some sports in Copenhagen are going to be cancelled :

http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/les...E.php?AID=21172.

This is terrible for the participants.

Who knew the Danish liked country line dancing? Here's a "short video made by Pink Goes Green/Jann Kuusisaari from the pre-event the 22nd of March at one of the great venues of World Outgames 2009, DGI Byen. Local Copenhageners and the Copenhagen LGBT community was invited to get a taste of World Outgames - the day was a great success with many visitors and lots of fun."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huVChgBUjcc

Who would have thought... In Denmark too..
gays-face-worrying-level-of-discrimination