Joe in Philly
Jul 1 2007, 03:39 PM
TBS is where the selections are to be announced right now. Oops. The Braves-Marlins game was delayed by rain so it's still going on. Good planning on having a game before the big selection show -- like, it never rains in South Florida.

For the tens of people anxious that the selection show still isn't on the air, MLB asks you to not panic. The all-stars will be announced shortly.
canmark
Jul 1 2007, 05:47 PM
American League rooster:
STARTERS:
C Ivan Rodriguez, DET
1B David Ortiz, BOS
Placido Polanco, DET
3B Alex Rodriguez, NYY
SS Derek Jeter, NYY
OF Vladimir Guerrero, LAA
OF Magglio Ordonez, DET
OF Ichiro Suzuki, SEA L/R
PITCHERS:
Josh Beckett, BOS R/R
Dan Haren, OAK R/R
Bobby Jenks, CWS R/R
John Lackey, LAA R/R
Gil Meche, KC R/R
Jon Papelbon, BOS R/R
J.J. Putz, SEA R/R
Francisco Rodriguez, LAA R/R
C.C. Sabathia, CLE L/L
Johan Santana, MIN L/L
Justin Verlander, DET R/R
RESERVES:
C Victor Martinez, CLE
C Jorge Posada, NYY
1B Justin Morneau, MIN
2B Brian Roberts, BAL
SS Carlos Guillen, DET
SS Michael Young, TEX
3B Mike Lowell, BOS
OF Carl Crawford, TB
OF Torii Hunter, MIN
OF Manny Ramirez, BOS
OF Alex Rios, TOR
OF Grady Sizemore, CLE
Joe in Philly
Jul 1 2007, 07:16 PM
Clearly the fix was in...
QUOTE
Not only is Barry Bonds going to the All-Star game in his home ballpark, he'll be in the starting lineup.
The San Francisco Giants star overcame a 119,000-vote deficit in the final days of balloting and finished 123,000 ahead of the Chicago Cubs' Alfonso Soriano on Sunday to claim the third and final starting outfield spot for the National League.
It was nice to see Aaron Rowand selected as a reserve -- I thought he might be overlooked. I thought Cole Hamels might get bypassed after his last few starts not being up to par but he still made it. And Chase Utley was voted to start at second, a no-brainer.
Thomas
Jul 2 2007, 01:55 AM
That's good for your team, but you must admit some others got screwed big time. Ivan Rodriguez over Posada? It's a just decision, since that's how the decision-making process is set up; we, the fans, get to decide who we want o see, but that doesn't make it right. Posada got screwed.
David Wright should not start over Miguel Cabrera. Aramis? maybe. But definitely not Cabrera, whose numbers are better in every single category. David put up good numbers too, is more likeable, and plays in a city with a huge voting bloc, but...c'mon. Fans got this one wrong. Marlins got screwed...like always.
I'm not sure how I feel about Barry Bonds starting. Based on his mumbers, any SF fan could make a solid argument for Bonds, especially his OPS (1.112) and OBP (.513); both are scarry good, but I could also make a strong case for Matt Holliday as the starter: 57 RBIs to Bonds 44; and a .328 BA to Bonds .288. I know Matt is a reserve but how he fell all the way to 4th in the All Star voting is a mystery to me. Here, again, I think fan base played a huge part; California has a bigger basbeall fan base than Colorado.
There's been a lot of bitching about Beltran, but I'm cool with that. His BA isn't as good as Rowand's, but he's a very popular player (good for television), and, he does have more HRs, so maybe that's why he's starting. The NL put together a good television team, should be fun watching these guys, but if the NL is really serious about home field advantage, they should have selected the best players. Had they done that, Aaron Rowand would be starting and Beltran would be the reserve.
As for Barry Bonds, his inclusion is just, based solely on merit; his numbers are staggering; but I still don't like him; I still think he cheated to increase his HR total, especially during 2001- 2004 when his HR numbers went through the roof. But I like to think I'm fair-minded, so if the fans want to watch Barry Bonds in the All Star game, 'll just have to endure it. I know he hasn't been convicted of anything, and, as far as I'm concerned, has done nothing illegal, but while he is magic at the plate, he is not a good person, and embodies everything that is wrong with the game of baseball.
Finally, of all the players that got screwed in the All Star voting, Edgar Renteria tops the list. The guy has better numbers than Reyes; not by much, but higher. Edgar needs to find a way to make himself more likeable to the fans. The talent is there, but, for some reason, fans weren't anxious to watch him. That's why I keep harping about personality and media savvy; no matter how good you may be at you sport, popularity and likeable personality (genuine or made up), goes a long way during contract negotiations, both on and off the field.
Based on the statistics, I could also make a strong case for Joh Maine over several others who got in, but I've probably said too much already.
Bill W
Jul 2 2007, 08:38 AM
The only NL SS who is arguably better than Reyes -- and it's a coin flip -- is Hanley Ramirez. that he wasn't picked as a reserve is a crime.
The selection of Wagner and a couple other relievers shows how massively overrated closers are.
Brian Roberts should be the AL 2b but, as with Florida fans, Oriole rooters apparently don't vote.
I'm glad being 2nd in NL in slugging and leading the majors in on-base pct gets a guy a "controversial" spot...
Thomas
Jul 3 2007, 01:19 AM
Bill, you'll get no argument from me about Reyes. I've seen his numbers, and the fans love him, but you're giving him a little too much credit, in comparison to Ramirez and Renteria. The numbers are comparable (see below). Renteria was definitely snubbed by the fans; which is their right. Not complaining, just finding it hard to understand how he got so little fan support.
Brian Roberts is a good choice, but I don't have a problem with Polanco getting in. His numbers are solid; he's deserving. Plus, the Tigers are more popular with fans, for obvious reasons. That's why there's so many of them in the All Star game.
E. Renteria: 39 RBI; .389OBP; .887 OPS; .498 SLG; and .326 BA
H. Ramirez: 29 RBI; .378 OBP; .883 OPS; .505 SLG; and .320 BA
J. Reyes:--- 34 RBI; .398 OBP; .851 OPS; .453 SLG; and .317 BA
George Twins fan
Jul 3 2007, 06:41 AM
Bonds deserves to be in the game. His numbers this year make him worthy. But it is odd that he was able to make up an almost 120,000 vote deficit in one week's time. The Giants fans must have been stuffing that ballot box like crazy.
Bill W
Jul 3 2007, 12:17 PM
Well, I'm not a Giant fan, and I voted for Bonds 25 times.
Thomas, I would agree that Renteria's numbers are right with the other two this year, but he was clearly behind em last year, and I like to take the last season and a half into account.
Polanco has never had an all-star caliber season, and what he's got this year is an empty batting average. Roberts and Upton are clearly better.
Also, David Ortiz is not a first baseman.
Thomas
Jul 4 2007, 04:36 AM
QUOTE(Bill W @ Jul 3 2007, 05:17 PM)

Well, I'm not a Giant fan, and I voted for Bonds 25 times.
Thomas, I would agree that Renteria's numbers are right with the other two this year, but he was clearly behind em last year, and I like to take the last season and a half into account.
Polanco has never had an all-star caliber season, and what he's got this year is an empty batting average. Roberts and Upton are clearly better.
Also, David Ortiz is not a first baseman.
I know, but what do you do with best DHs in the game? They play a major role in the AL, so their fans deserve to watch them in the ASG. Right? Ortiz deserves it. I don't agree with you about Renteria (he was snubbed by the fans), but you make valid points. I won't watch someone I hardly know either. And, I don't think a guy who had a good few weeks should be given All Star consideration either. I prefer the ASG reward those players who have paid their dues; unless the guy is too good to ignore; e.g.; Justin Verlander. But I don't want to watch a once-good veteran player having a bad year in the ASG either; e.g.; Pat Burrell (he's stealing the money). But the fans usually do it good, for the most part; so I won't complain too much.
QUOTE(George Twins fan @ Jul 3 2007, 11:41 AM)

Bonds deserves to be in the game. His numbers this year make him worthy. But it is odd that he was able to make up an almost 120,000 vote deficit in one week's time. The Giants fans must have been stuffing that ballot box like crazy.
I don't know, George. That happens, if there's enough urgency. Remember the presidential election? But I'm sure the SF fans voted as hard as they could for Barry. I don't blame them for it, but I definitely do not share their enthusiasm and high regard for Barry Bonds. He was a mean man before the steroid fiasco, and I don't think he's changed one bit. It was strange watching Barry hugging the dude that ran onto the outfield the other day, and then escorting the guy back to the stand with his arm around the guy. That's not the same Barry Bonds I've watched the last 10 years, so I believe it was staged; a media ploy; he was faking for sure. When did Barry become a people person? He used to curse fans, the media, and his teammates. That's the Barry etched in my memory.
Bill W
Jul 5 2007, 09:29 AM
There are SIX closers on the NL staff! Ridiculous. Maine and Snell should be there.
I know Renteria pretty well. He's not quite on the level of Reyes and Hanley.
Thomas
Jul 6 2007, 03:43 AM
Ok, Bill. You win. I spoke to you last season, so I know I won't change your mind. I assume you know that Hideki Okajima and Chris Young got voted in today. And La Russa picked Oswalt to replace Smoltz. Can't say much against the Oswalt selection, although I don't think he deserves it this year. But I know LaRussa took the easy way out and went with the next highest vote getter--Oswalt. I don't think Okajima should be there. I've seen his numbers, so can't criticize his selection based on stats; he's having a fine season in relief, but hasn't been around long enough to be called a "star", let alone a proven all star. How many people outside Boston know Okajima? Bonderman, on the other hand, has paid his dues; been pitching well the last few years, and is better known. The ASG should be about proven MLB players (Bonderman); not rookies having a good half-season (Okajima). If I had the power to select the final two, I would have gone with Chris Young and Jeremy Bonderman. But.... I definnitely agree with you about Maine; he should definitely be there, but not Snell; he's a decent hurler, but not all star caliber. He's got five losses already.
Bill W
Jul 6 2007, 09:43 AM
When it comes to reserves and pitchers, I think there should be a lot more latitude for picking guys who are having their first "star" season. The NL centerfielder having the best 2007 so far is the Astros' Hunter Pence, the likely Rookie of the Year; he should be there.
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 6 2007, 08:43 AM)

but not Snell; he's a decent hurler, but not all star caliber. He's got five losses already.
You know the Pirates can't hit, right? Won-lost records in a single season are a crapshoot for a pitcher -- they tell you nothing about his skill. Based on the Baseball Prospectus list of Value Over Replacement Pitcher, Maine and Snell (2.93 ERA) are both among the top 5 pitchers in the league this year, with Snell's teammate Tom Gorzelanny (and Oswalt) not far behind.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statisti....php?cid=204030
Thomas
Jul 7 2007, 03:33 AM
I studied the VORP data. Good for Snell. Unlike so many, I DO believe in stats. But that doesn't change how I feel about Snell and his five losses. Let me see if I can approach this a different way. Pirates are 27th in runs scored (352), so you're right; they can't hit. As a team, Pirate pitchers allow 4.53 earned runs per game, 21st in the majors. So, as a team, they can't pitch either, even though Gorzelanny and Snell are warriors on the mound. That's why the Pirates are having a tough year. Now, lets take a look at what the Padres are doing. The Padres are 25th in the majors in runs scored (358), but lead the majors in earned runs, averaging just under 3.00 per game. Padres can't hit either, but stifle their opponents with excellent pitching. This allows them to stay in games, and win games, even though they don't hit well as a team. Padres have excellent starters and a terrific and experienced bull pen, which is why they placed two starters and a closer on the all star team.
If the Padres scored more runs, I'm sure Maddux would have more wins and he'd be an all star this year too. But he's not. You're arguing a similar point; that if the Pirates had better hitting, Snell's record would be better and he'd be an all satr this year. But he's not, and for the same reason Maddux isn't there. Snell has a better ERA and VORP (WHIP too), but both Maddux and Snell have five losses. If you extend your argument, one could make a case for Pettite and Musinna, because the Yankees bats have been silent for months, so neither Pettite or Mussina receive any run support either. Should they be given all star consideration (they had good records last year, when the Yankee bats were alive and kicking)? Here's another point. Scott Proctor gets no support form his starters, and, doesn't receive any run support from the Yankee bats. This obviously hurts his effectiveness and negatively affects the number of holds. Does this mean that Scott should be given all star consideration? If I used your argument ; no or low run support, I could make a decent case for Scott.
The point is: voters do tend to look at W/L records and BA, RBI, HR, etc., and don't make the same allowances we do. So, since most fans vote wins verses losses, Snell's five losses cost him all star consideration. I'm a little confused though. You seem to make a passionate case for Snell but not Gorzelanny, who actually has more wins. Why is that?
Bill W
Jul 9 2007, 12:55 PM
cuz pitcher wins over 3 months don't matter at all to me?
Thomas
Jul 11 2007, 03:04 AM
Gotta feel bad for Aaron; flied out with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th. I didn't care who won the game, but it looked like Putz and KRod got way too excited. Do you really want your closers brushing back batters in the 9th, or, do you want them throwing strikes? I like Dimitri Young (he's had a tough life) and Soriano has always been one of my favorite players, but Putz and KRod wasted so many pitches and energy dicking around with these two, they kept falling behind in the count and couldn't find the plate when they needed too. They almost blew the game. But KRod got the out he had to have so I guess the AL all stars left happy.
About Roberts. I know that play was ruled a hit, but it sure looked like Roberts could have made that play. I've seen guys make that same play a thousand times, so I know he could have made the throw in time (Dimitri doesn't have Reyes type foot speed) if he had stayed with it. He gave up too early. No, he didn't field the ball cleanly, but it didn't travel very far, so if he had kept his head in the game, he could have thrown out Dimitri.
Ichiro...Ichiro!!!! Inside the park HR. That was fun to watch.
Gotta feel for Young and Putz; they got roughed up pretty bad tonight. Maybe Putz felt extra pressure because of the all the pre-game praise he received from Jim. I had a feeling Jim was expecting too much from Putz. Young guys get nervous in tight situations, especially when they know the game will be televised around the world to about a billion people.
Boring game, but a good last inning. On the whole, this game had way too much filler and mindless, non-baseball chatter. WTF was all that stuff with the dog and the kayak? Joe Buck is one of my favorites, and usually pretty good at holding my attention (very intelligent and classy), but not tonight. He's still the best in the business though. It was good to see the players paying tribute to a living legend though. That was touching. I actually forgot about all the steroid accusations when Bonds and Jeter escorted him onto the field.
NL is getting closer to matching the AL in talent. That's obvious. They migth even win next year.
js1metsfan
Jul 11 2007, 07:45 AM
FOX's coverage of baseball is filled with mindless drivel. They have no idea how to cover a game. I turned the game on in the 4th, and it seemed all the chatter surrounded Bonds, and at this point, he wasn't even in the game.
I disagree about Buck....the guy is a complete and utter moron. He doesn't know anything about baseball, nor how to broadcast. There is no flow to his game. McCarver---well after having to listen to him for years when he exclusively announced for the Mets---he just has no hope. To quote a line from Mr. Deeds, all I hear out of McCarver's mouth is "Blah, Blah, Blah, I'm a dirty tramp"
Now, FOX is unlaunching an asinine website called Actober.com?????????? Have we gotten so f**king ignornant in this country that FOX feels the needs to launch a website distorting the spelling of one of our months????? Next thing you know, there will be a bill before Congress petitioning to change the spelling of October.
From a baseball perspective, with the exception of the AL East, no division is even close to being decided. Can we sit back and relax and enjoy the dog days of July/August, as well as what appears to be an exciting September of playoff races, before we are subjected to the moronic coverage of FOX playoff baseball?
I ordered last year a great DVD set of the 1986 LCS game 6 and the entire '86 WS. I forgot what it was like for a network to have decent coverage of the playoffs (NBC). Costas, Keith Jackson and Scully. Real announcers, talking about real baseball, without all the extra bullshit that no one cares about. I really wish Selig would step in and change the way baseball is presented to the viewer.
Josh
Bill W
Jul 11 2007, 09:14 AM
Josh is on the money on all things Fox, especially Joe Suck and Dim Tim. And that content-free pregame show!?!
LaRussa leaves Pujols on bench and decides the game with Orlando Hudson and Aaron Rowand: DRUNK AGAIN??
More proof that even though "IT COUNTS" they don't play it like a real game: You don't take Peavy out after one inning when it's obvious that he's ON.
happily I slept thru Billy f**king Wagner. John Maine avenged.
Marc
Jul 11 2007, 05:27 PM
After enduring almost a full hour of pre-game hype, they finally started the game, and actually it did turn out to be entertaining (whether it "counts" or not) as it gave me a chance to acquaint/re-acquaint myself with some players whom I haven't seen or seldom get to see (and there were some adorable ones, eg Brian Roberts, J.J. Hardy and Russell Martin all come to mind

; I missed Alex Rios' brief appearance but at least he's one I DO see often, since he plays for the Jays). I've always liked Ichiro and was happy for him scoring that first-ever inside-the-park home run. But I was surprised afterward to see that after seven years in the US, he still lacks the ability and/or confidence to speak at least a little English in his interviews. Anyway, the AL continues its dominance in the All-Star game, for what its worth.
Thomas, that dog-kayak thing involved Diamondbacks' player Eric Byrnes and his bulldog who swam in the wrong direction. It was cute for a few seconds, but I must say this constant showing of McCovey Cove and the boats (whenever a game from San Francisco is televised) is really starting to wear thin, almost becoming a cliché. I can only hope that when Bonds finally gets #756, we will stop hearing about him, and that the fans in their boats will just go away!
Joe in Philly
Jul 11 2007, 05:58 PM
Well, I mostly watched with the sound down. I didn't even turn it on until after 8:30, knowing the start time was supposed to be 8:42. Then they decided to make this old, old, old, old man Willie Mays walk all the way to the infield from the center field fence. Then he had to stop and take off his jacket. Then, in the outfield they put down a pitcher's mound and plate so he could throw out the first pitch. Then he removed a jersey he was wearing. Then he had to climb into a convertible and climb to sit on the top of the back seat. Then he was handed a couple of boxes with baseballs. Then the car was slowly driven near the dugouts so he could throw these baseballs into the stands. He really had to work for that tribute.
The game finally started at 8:54. The NL actually got a run. I fell asleep shortly thereafter. When I woke up it was 3-1 AL. So I hit rewind on the DVR and zipped through what I missed. At the 7th inning stretch MLB did its usual pandering with a God Bless America performance, except it seemed to take forever to set up a keyboard. Then it turns out it's Paula Cole, she of "Where Have All The Cowboys Gone" and "I Don't Want To Wait" and hairy armpits fame. I decided to briefly turn up the volume to hear. I've never heard "God bless America, land that I love" sung any worse. At that point I re-muted.
The game ended with Aaron Rowand failing to come through with 2 outs and the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th. Wow, I was watching an All-Star game when a Phillies game broke out!
And why does Ichiro still have an interpreter? He's been playing in this country for how many years now -- hasn't he learned any English? It's bad enough Fox has to have a bimbo doing the post-game interview but then it has to be interpreted?
Thomas
Jul 14 2007, 02:51 AM
QUOTE(js1metsfan @ Jul 11 2007, 12:45 PM)

FOX's coverage of baseball is filled with mindless drivel. They have no idea how to cover a game. I turned the game on in the 4th, and it seemed all the chatter surrounded Bonds, and at this point, he wasn't even in the game.
I disagree about Buck....the guy is a complete and utter moron. He doesn't know anything about baseball, nor how to broadcast. There is no flow to his game. McCarver---well after having to listen to him for years when he exclusively announced for the Mets---he just has no hope. To quote a line from Mr. Deeds, all I hear out of McCarver's mouth is "Blah, Blah, Blah, I'm a dirty tramp"
From a baseball perspective, with the exception of the AL East, no division is even close to being decided. Can we sit back and relax and enjoy the dog days of July/August, as well as what appears to be an exciting September of playoff races, before we are subjected to the moronic coverage of FOX playoff baseball?
I ordered last year a great DVD set of the 1986 LCS game 6 and the entire '86 WS. I forgot what it was like for a network to have decent coverage of the playoffs (NBC). Costas, Keith Jackson and Scully. Real announcers, talking about real baseball, without all the extra bullshit that no one cares about. I really wish Selig would step in and change the way baseball is presented to the viewer.
Josh
Guess you didn't like the ASG much? Scully? OK. No argument. But Keith Jackson better than Tim? I disagaree. I have these discussions all the time, and gets trounced sometimes, but you can't pick announcers/analysts/color guys based solely on knowledge of the game. Television producers have ways of gauging an announcer's likeability. I think its called a Q Rating? He's not a sport figure, but Alan Alda, for example, had one of the highest Q ratings ever. So does Bob Barker of The Price is Right. David Beckam's popularity is through the roof in London. I would expect that television sports producers also utilize a similar survey when selecting announcers for television sporting events. It makes sense that they would do that. No matter how much you know about a sport, if viewers can't relate to you as a person, they'll turn down the volume (like Joe did) or change the channel. FOX pays Joe Buck a ton of money to do baseball and football, so I'm guessing he's popular with the average sports viewer, if not diehard baseball fans. Of course, this is all conjecture on my part, but I can't accept that television producers pay MLB millions of dollars to televise games and then turn then over to a team of announcers without first conducting some form of marketing, and/or focus group testing; to gauge their popularity with viewers. Could it be that the FOX surveys led them to pick Joe Buck? Its possible, you know.
QUOTE(Marc @ Jul 11 2007, 10:27 PM)

Thomas, that dog-kayak thing involved Diamondbacks' player Eric Byrnes and his bulldog who swam in the wrong direction. It was cute for a few seconds, but I must say this constant showing of McCovey Cove and the boats (whenever a game from San Francisco is televised) is really starting to wear thin, almost becoming a cliché. I can only hope that when Bonds finally gets #756, we will stop hearing about him, and that the fans in their boats will just go away!
Marc, you're in for a lot of misery then, my friend. When BB gets #756, he will become a baseball legend, to which every other hitter will be compared, so there's no way you, I, or any other baseball fan, will be able to forget about him or stop hearing his name. What would be nice though is if BB was cleared of all wrongdoing; that would be good for baseball; we could all like him again. I want to, but right now, I just can't. I believed he, along with so many others, cheated to break records, and that I can't accept.
QUOTE(Bill W @ Jul 11 2007, 02:14 PM)

Josh is on the money on all things Fox, especially Joe Suck and Dim Tim. And that content-free pregame show!?!
LaRussa leaves Pujols on bench and decides the game with Orlando Hudson and Aaron Rowand: DRUNK AGAIN??
More proof that even though "IT COUNTS" they don't play it like a real game: You don't take Peavy out after one inning when it's obvious that he's ON.
happily I slept thru Billy f**king Wagner. John Maine avenged.
Bill, you're being unfair to LaRussa. I know you like stats, so if you check the RISP numbers for Rowand and Pujols, you'll find that Rowand has about .100 RISP advantage over Pujols, as well as a better BA. Wouldn't you, as manager, want the guy with the best RISP number at the plate with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th? I could make an argument that Pujols is the best hitter in the game, but that argument would he harder to make if I factored in what he did the first half of the season. I don't believe for a second that LaRussa was saving him for extra innings. That makes no sense at all. He didn't want to run the risk of a Pujol injury. Selfish? Maybe. But like I said; Aaron had better RISP numbers, so LaRussa's decision, even if unpopular, was statiscally sound, so justifiable.
QUOTE(Joe in Philly @ Jul 11 2007, 10:58 PM)

Well, I mostly watched with the sound down. I didn't even turn it on until after 8:30, knowing the start time was supposed to be 8:42. Then they decided to make this old, old, old, old man Willie Mays walk all the way to the infield from the center field fence. Then he had to stop and take off his jacket. Then, in the outfield they put down a pitcher's mound and plate so he could throw out the first pitch. Then he removed a jersey he was wearing. Then he had to climb into a convertible and climb to sit on the top of the back seat. Then he was handed a couple of boxes with baseballs. Then the car was slowly driven near the dugouts so he could throw these baseballs into the stands. He really had to work for that tribute.
The game finally started at 8:54. The NL actually got a run. I fell asleep shortly thereafter. When I woke up it was 3-1 AL. So I hit rewind on the DVR and zipped through what I missed. At the 7th inning stretch MLB did its usual pandering with a God Bless America performance, except it seemed to take forever to set up a keyboard. Then it turns out it's Paula Cole, she of "Where Have All The Cowboys Gone" and "I Don't Want To Wait" and hairy armpits fame. I decided to briefly turn up the volume to hear. I've never heard "God bless America, land that I love" sung any worse. At that point I re-muted.
The game ended with Aaron Rowand failing to come through with 2 outs and the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th. Wow, I was watching an All-Star game when a Phillies game broke out!
And why does Ichiro still have an interpreter? He's been playing in this country for how many years now -- hasn't he learned any English? It's bad enough Fox has to have a bimbo doing the post-game interview but then it has to be interpreted?
Hey Joe, tell us how you really felt about the ASG. I have to honest though. The hour-long intro was hard to sit through. IMO, I think you guys are way too hard on Joe and Tim. I'm guessing that whole thing was scripted....until the game actually started. Joe might not be the best baseball analyst, but he's one of the best all-sports analysts.
Aaron's having a rough week, huh? Hope he's able to put that 9th inning ASG behind him.
Bill W
Jul 16 2007, 10:57 AM
Thomas, I like meaningful stats. RISP, especially in as small a samople as half a season, is meaningless -- ie, it can be chalked up to luck/randomness.
Thomas
Jul 17 2007, 03:48 AM
I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. I think you're remembering the PUjols of 2006, not this year's version. His drop off at the plate is not as bad as Zito's on the mound, but Albert is not putting up the same numbers this year as last. What makes you so certain he would have fared any better than Aaron?
Bill W
Jul 17 2007, 01:01 PM
Pujols lifetime: .331/.418/.622
2007: .315/.414/.550
I don't care about the slugging dropoff, there's nothing "bad" about those numbers, especially as they figure to rise in the next 70 games.
Short-term RISP is volatile and doesn't reflect long-term "clutchness" -- the same guys would lead the league in it every year if so, and they don't.
Thomas
Jul 18 2007, 01:08 AM
Volatile or not, I want a hitter with a hot bat at the plate with men on in the bottom of the ninth; which I why I agree with LaRussa's decision to keep Pujols on the bench.
I agree with you about slugging; what really matters to me is RBI, especially for batters in the middle of the order. Can't judge guys like Soriano and Reyes based on RBIs; they bat lead off. OBP is a better judge of their value to the team, followed by OPS.
I would never denigrate anything Pujols does on the diamond, but guys sometimes go through slumps and nagging injuries; or sometimes they just don't feel well or experience personal problems that affect their play. Whatever the reason, managers must make decisions based on the now. It would hard for any manger to send Pujols to the plate over a guy with better numbers (RISP and BA) in that situation. But, yes, there is nothing bad period about Pujols. He's a veteran; a proven and bona fide superstar. Is he clutch? He was last year. This year, clutch is Big Papi, A Rod, Ordonez, Suzuki, V. Guerrero, and Dimitri Young.
Bill W
Jul 18 2007, 12:46 PM
In the way you're using it, there is no hard evidence that "clutch" ability exists.
RBI is team-dependent; slugging pct is much more meaningful. (when park-adjusted, of course.)
Thomas
Jul 19 2007, 03:31 AM
I guess we read the same sports pages, because your argument is clealry inspired by the writers and statiticians over at baseball prospectus. Those guys have asserted for years that there's no such thing as "clutch hitting", "clutch pitching", or even "clutch fielding". Yet they continue to measure and quantitate every other statistic in baseball. What they really mean is they haven't come up with a mathematical formula to accurately measure a "clutch" factor. I still maintain that Jeter is 'clutch", but you are free to disagree. It's an intuitive quality, so not quantifiable.
As for slugging, we both know the formulas and calculations, so I won't debate that with you. But slugging stats are more valuable in certain situations than others. That's why I get tired of people using the stat. Slugging is huge when you're voting for all star; we want offense in an ASG. But when trailing by three with the bases loaded in the bottom of the ninth, does it really matter whether the winning run results from a walk off grand slam or four consecutive singles? The objective is to win the game; and it doesn't matter how it happens: ARod (a power hitter who's leading the league in slugging), or Ichiro (the best singles hitter in baseball who's not even in the top 50 in slugging).
Yes, RBI is a team statistic. A player's stats always depend on his teammates in some fashion. What's your point; that slugging is an individual acheivement, independent of the team?. If I'm batting clean up, I'm gonna have a different strategy at the plate with nobody on in the bottom of the second than when my team is trailing by one in the bottom of the ninth with two outs. I'm swinging for the fence in the second, but looking to make contact in the ninth. So, depending on which approach I take, the baserunners (my team) could effect my BA, RBI, and slugging. What if a hit-and-run is called but the guy on first doesn't get the signal? A ball hit into deep right should result in a double, but becuase of what happened at first, ended up a single. Since slugging is weighted toward total bases, my teammate hurt my slugging percentage. Get it? I can make this same argument for any so-called "individual" baseball statistic.
Bill W
Jul 19 2007, 09:24 AM
If Jeter (or anyone less beloved by the media machine) is "clutch," why doesn't he try as hard the rest of the time?
Over 162 games, those strategic differences at bat you mention shouldn't add up to many plate appearances. Especially since making an out is never a good idea unless it's to advance the run that will win the game, as Earl Weaver said.
Kudos to you for reading Baseball Prospectus, Thomas.
And if it's not quantifiable, you can't prove it exists, ie, it's what jock analysts love to talk about.
Thomas
Jul 22 2007, 02:18 AM
QUOTE(Bill W @ Jul 19 2007, 02:24 PM)

If Jeter (or anyone less beloved by the media machine) is "clutch," why doesn't he try as hard the rest of the time?
Over 162 games, those strategic differences at bat you mention shouldn't add up to many plate appearances. Especially since making an out is never a good idea unless it's to advance the run that will win the game, as Earl Weaver said.
Kudos to you for reading Baseball Prospectus, Thomas.
And if it's not quantifiable, you can't prove it exists, ie, it's what jock analysts love to talk about.

I agree with everything you said. Yes, these strategic differences do average out over an entire season, because all managers devise game plans for every forseeable situation, which includes hitting and pitching strategies. Also, stataticians set a minimum number of games and pitches to qualify for some statistics, making it difficult to compare everyday players with new or situational players. And don't get me started on the run support issue. Halo pitching is superb, but if you look at the number of recent losses, you wouldn't know that (well; maybe Santana, but he was sent down) because they can't produce enough runs. So, yeah, I agree with you. Baseball stats have meaning only when the sample pool is large enough.
As for why Jeter isn't clutch every time out, who is? Bill, you can't measure a player's "heart" and/or determination. But I think you'll agree that guys like Derek Jeter and Reggie Jackson stepped it up in the playoffs, when other didn't. That's why I wouldn't give ARod a single penny more than he's earning right now. He's over-paid,a s it is. What he's doing this season doesn't erase the years he took money and could not produce. He didn't give back money for all the years he failed to produce, so why should the Yankees pay him $30M/year to do what he failed to do at $25M/year? One break out season (2007) in the last five years is not worthy of $250,000,000. If anything, ARod owes the Rangers and Yankees a refund. ARod is a gold digger; not clutch at all; traditionally, his post-season play has been awful.
I don't actually read articles at baseball prospectus. I visit the site to look up current stats; they do it better. I prefer to get my daily game recaps from mlb.com; they're very detailed, but sometimes the articles are way too long. But baseballreference.com is the place to go when looking for historical comparisons.
Bill W
Jul 23 2007, 09:54 AM
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 22 2007, 07:18 AM)

But I think you'll agree that guys like Derek Jeter and Reggie Jackson stepped it up in the playoffs, when other didn't.
They're both excellent hitters who performed at the peak of their ability in (some) Octobers over a short span. (Jeter's lousy glove also hastened the Yanks' playoff departure one year.) Willie Mays never played especially well in his 4 World Series -- should he have been paid less?
"Stepping up" is the kind of jock/writer talk I associate with football, and other sports that embrace dopey cliches with no basis in fact.
Thomas
Jul 24 2007, 04:05 AM
QUOTE(Bill W @ Jul 23 2007, 02:54 PM)

They're both excellent hitters who performed at the peak of their ability in (some) Octobers over a short span. (Jeter's lousy glove also hastened the Yanks' playoff departure one year.) Willie Mays never played especially well in his 4 World Series -- should he have been paid less?
"Stepping up" is the kind of jock/writer talk I associate with football, and other sports that embrace dopey cliches with no basis in fact.
Bill W, you're obviously a hard one, so I'm not gonna argue this with you. Just the facts. OK? Of course there's such a thing as "stepping up". How else would you account for what the Card starters/relievers did last year in the WS? from baseballreference.com:
Name ------------------
Career ERA --------
2006 ERA --------
Post-season ERA Jeff Suppan (S)----------4.62-----------------4.12----------------3.00
Adam Wainwright®----3.86-----------------3.12----------------0.00 (9 innings)
Chris Carpenter(S)-----4.10-----------------3.09----------------2.53
Jeff Weaver(s)----------4.65 -------------- --5.18---------------4.03, but 2.77 in 2006WS
Have you ever seen Weaver pitch better than he did in the WS last year? I haven't. Suppan was also lights out in the WS. Terrific off-speed stuff. And Wainwright; another wonderful curveball artist. Cards didn't win the WS because of what they did at the plate. They won it because of what they did on the mound. All were better in the post-season than the regular season. Bill, if you can't admit even that, well then, you're a stubborn mule. I'm also starting to sense some Yankee hatred. Scared this current win streak might actually continue, Bill? Of course, Bosox are still playing well too, so no matter what the Yankees do, they will need the Sox to come back to them in a big way to have any chance at a post-season berth.
Bill W
Jul 24 2007, 11:28 AM
QUOTE(Thomas @ Jul 24 2007, 09:05 AM)

Cards won it because of what they did on the mound. All were better in the post-season than the regular season.
Of course, Thomas. The difference is in our interpretation of that above-average October performance. I think they had a hot couple of weeks,
as ANY players in the major leagues are capable of doing, at a fortuitous time. You seem to think they specifically psyched themselves into pitching better BECAUSE it was October and they just had a special "clutch" ability in the postseason.
As I did in April, I expect the Yankees to get around 89 or 90 wins, just missing out on the wild card. (If it wasn't for A-Rod, the best player in baseball, they'd be making vacation plans around Labor Day.)
Thomas
Jul 25 2007, 01:56 AM
QUOTE(Bill W @ Jul 24 2007, 04:28 PM)

Of course, Thomas. The difference is in our interpretation of that above-average October performance. I think they had a hot couple of weeks, as ANY players in the major leagues are capable of doing, at a fortuitous time. You seem to think they specifically psyched themselves into pitching better BECAUSE it was October and they just had a special "clutch" ability in the postseason.
As I did in April, I expect the Yankees to get around 89 or 90 wins, just missing out on the wild card. (If it wasn't for A-Rod, the best player in baseball, they'd be making vacation plans around Labor Day.)
A coincidence that all the Card pitchers got lucky for a couple weeks? Hardly. There's something more at work here than luck, my friend. There's fire; competitive spirit, reaching for something extra; and recognizing that something more, something above and beyond is needed at this moment in time. The Cards starters found that special something last year. Not sure why you're adamant on this issue. It happens in all sports....all the time. The second wind? A second and third gear? Pushing the limit of your endurance? Long distance runners do it all the time.
Nor is it a coincidence that the Yankee bats have come alive lately. There's nothing different different now in Damon's swing than before. Same for Abreu. So what happened? Matsui is hitting balls now that he couldn't find with a telescope before the All Star break. This can't be explained away by "a couple of hot weeks". Yankees came together as a team. They resolved to utilize their formidable talents to acheive a common goal. Lots of players fall prey to complacency; especially in a zoo like the Big Apple (except for Jeter) and Torres mild-mannered handling.
Some success can be explained away by circumstanec. Cubs are playing well this season in large part because of off-season acquisitions that buoyed their offense. But that logic doesn't explain the Brew Crew's success this season. Those guys do it by playing harder than their opponents. Ricky Weeks will never be an All Star, but he's a winner. Same could be said for the entire team.
The best example of "stepping up" is the Florida Marlins. The World Series? How did that happen? That team continues to play well, play hard, every year, even when facing opponents with superior talent; even as their penny-pitching owners continue to sell off their best talent. That team is all heart, determination, and courage. They do what they do, not because they have the best talent, but because they play together, as one, to maximize the talent they do have. I could make a similar argument for the hard-nosed Bue Jays.
Luck is John Maine hitting a home run tonight, or an Ichiro inside-the-park home run. But there's nothing lucky about what the Cards did last year. That was a winning resolve.
As always, Bill. You are entitled to your opinion.
Bill W
Jul 25 2007, 09:51 AM
Oh, Thomas... that "heart" and "came together" crap is the stuff of sports media careers. (Ditto "He's a winner.") Talent wins, but luck helps enormously in short series.
Thomas
Jul 26 2007, 03:05 AM
QUOTE(Bill W @ Jul 25 2007, 02:51 PM)

Oh, Thomas... that "heart" and "came together" crap is the stuff of sports media careers. (Ditto "He's a winner.") Talent wins, but luck helps enormously in short series.
Bill, you're hopeless, dude. If talent was all that's required, the Yankees would win the WS every year. Tiger Woods would win all four majors every year. But they didn't...and he didn't. And so forth.....
How does a sports fan like yourself become so cynical?