... and a bad joke falls out.

ESPN coverage

I'd like to know the meaning of "kickout" in this context, too... is he talking about Jack or Ennis?

I don't know why ol' Phil just didn't come right out and tell everyone about Kobe instead of throwing these Freudian slips all around. Seems easy to me.

I sorry, but I don't see the big deal. It sounds like a joke I would make. Is it ok for me to tell the same joke, because I'm gay?

Meh.

If anything I'm annoyed about such a passe reference.

I thought it was a pretty good line. Not sure why the fuss?

However, other than the tent scene was there any penetration in "BBM"?

Because it's obviously intended as a "gay joke." If a white guy makes some watermelon joke about blacks, it's f***'in offensive. So is this.

So, it's ok if you or I say it, because we're gay? But Jackson can't say it, because he's straight? It didn't seem like he was meaning it to be offensive or discriminatory. I have made much worst jokes. Of course, I have over 40 years of being gay under by belt.



Plus, he was probably just trying to give Jake a little free publicity. He's a Laker's fan, you know. Keep the season ticket holders happy, that's what I always say! That's what I always tell my ticket rep, also.

Cyd's article on the home page says that Jackson said: "If I’ve offended any horses, Texans, cowboys or gays, I apologize."

Not to be picky, because I don't consider the "joke" worth apologizing for, and I don't know where Cyd got that quote, but I saw the statement he made on TV. First he talked about how he's not Jay Leno or David Letterman, then he sort of ripped ESPN for bringing it to people's attention (I don't even know if they're the ones who aired the quote first -- I think there were multiple reporters/cameras because it was a postgame press conference), then he said the quote above -- but he did NOT say the word "gays." It was horses, Texans, cowboys and anyone else that would be offended.

I just saw the full apology on SportsCenter and that horses, Texans, blah blah blah part was part of the quote.

Honestly...I'm kind of more offended by the apology than I was about the original statement.

I wasn't particularly offended by this. The brouhaha over this is way over the top for what Jackson said.

The quote was carried by several places, including:

Houston Chronicle carries Jackson's apology

When I saw this today, I was thinking that he could've said, "We call this a porno game, with lot's of penetration" but since he specifically said Brokeback Mountain, it appears-to me anyway-that he wanted to make the gay reference.

On another note...nice pic of Gyllenhall!!!

If you want to find offense in what was said, you will, as you will in just about anything anyone says, particularly when a joke (or in this case an attempted joke) is being said.

My take, if straight people are not allowed to tell a joke with a gay reference, where being gay wasn't being used as a put down, is there any wonder why some people think gays overreact? I mean really. I am no Phil Jackson fan. I think he and Kobe deserve each other and then some, but this is much ado about nothing really. If he had said, as chill suggested that porno could have been substitued, and it could have, than what is the issue. I don't believe he is implying his team acted gay just because he referenced Brokeback.

Tirade over...

I don't think GLAAD wanted him to apologize because the comment offended gay people. (Of course we think it's funny.) But rather, GLAAD is reminding unthinking people to think a little. As pedantic as it sounds, Jackson is equating being beaten or losing with being f**ked in the ass, perpetuating negative ideas about gay sex and, thus, being gay.

GLAAD has to take these kinds of comments to task -- it's its job. For all the young or closeted gay persons out there who live in relative isolation, I think it helps to hear GLAAD defending them.

This seems so painfully obvious to me, but then I rarely see things the way other gays do:

In the homophobic old school sports world, the single worst thing a macho athlete can be accused of is being effeminate or, worse, gay. Players who are "soft" get labeled something like "skirt of the week."

In this homophobic world view, the single worst thing that a man can allow is for himself to be penetrated. Ever hear the expression "so and so got f***ed in the ass?" It's not intended as a compliment.

Maybe none of you listen to hip hop, but in virtually every "dis" song, the person being put down gets penetrated, although not in those words, and it's intended as the ultimate insult.

Yeah, it is a lot worse when a straight guy like Jackson says it, because it is clearly intended as an insult. As in, our team was so weak and pathetic, we let them "penetrate" us over and over.

OK, I'm out of here, like Phil Jackson's credibility.

CYD: "It was a great comment by Jackson. Witty, poignant, descriptive, and gay-inclusive."

Sorry Cyd, I think you're "overreacting."

if by WITTY, you mean GROAN-INDUCINGLY PASSE', "POIGNANT", you mean...okay, i don't what the hell you mean by calling it "POIGNANT", that's just a WTF! moment, "DESCRIPTIVE", okay, i'll give you that, it was descriptive...unfortunantely, and "GAY INCLUSIVE", yes, I'm sure all of the closeted gay players in the NBA appreciated that remark.

I think it's pathetic that so many gays are willing to be debased and degraded, if it means being a "part of the team".

I saw the apology on ESPN"s First Take this morning. He didn't mention gays specifically in the apology though. He did say cowboys and horses and the all-encompasing "anybody else who may have been offended".

Jamel Hill mentioned she visited Outsports.com and read Cyd's article, with which she agreed.

Of course she did. Any straight person can now point to Cyd's fawning, embarassing article and say "see, we can be as offensive as we want, and this guy will stick up for us".

Way to go, CYD!

Anyone is entitled to be offended by this, but because I am gay, does not mean that I need to be. I am not. I unerstand more clearly now that LarryC explained why he is, and I respect that, but I do not share the same view.

Because we are all gay (whatever that may mean to you personally, btw) does not mean that we all share one mind on this or any issue. We really should stop reducing ourselves to that.

I'm not going to go into professional outrage machine mode over this, but Jackson is an ass. His apology was dickish at best.

Dick. Ass. Heh.

Setting aside any specific gay offense to the easily ruffled, it's just not that funny a line or reference.

Brokeback Mountain was about an unfulfilled relationship and how the time period and setting prevented two lovers from spending their lives together. Penetration was not part of the storyline nor was the movie a comedy. Jackson's just kind of a typical sports guy with the typical, not terribly intelligent, lowest common denominator humor.

But gay offended? Not here.

I was not offended and I was on the Lakers flagship radio station last night to say so. The hosts thought it was a lame joke that fell flat. Jackson's apology was of the non-apoogy apology sort but I did not think what he said originally rose to the level of outrage; to each his own view.

Also, the radio hosts told me that Jackson did not mention gays the first time he apologized but did a second time he repeated the "Texans, horses ..." line -- this might account for the discrepancy some people have seen.

She also said she checked the message board.

Wow...that's kind of a weird feeling.

I think the offense for people comes in because the Lakers lost. Granted, people do say, as I did when a friend got his chick pregnant in high school, "dude...you're f*!" yet in the sports world, it's still kind of like being in prison, who's going to be whose b*th today, etc. which is probably more sexist than homophobic. In a similar way people might get offended if someone says that something "sucks" or they are going to "take it up the a**" at work when their boss finds out they've been getting drunk during lunch. So I can see why people might be offended. I personally was not though.

Right, and neither was I. But GLAAD is not concerned with whether gay people can take a joke. They're concerned with defamation ("to harm the reputation of by libel or slander"), and Jackson's comment fits the bill. It is perhaps boring to point it out, but there it is.

It's easy for sophisticated, self-possessed, out-and-proud gay people (who perhaps live in liberal areas or safe urban pockets) to think organizations like GLAAD make mountains out of molehills. But, as I posted above, GLAAD is actually doing something else. They're not trying to give gay people a bad name in the sense of humor department (or annoy the good people at Outsports), they're trying to help bring about one of the biggest paradigm shifts in history.

If there had never been a GLAAD doing what it does, there would never have been a web site called Outsports to begin with.

Get some context and a little more education on the subject, then you can start criticizing me. Or, at least you can start doing it correctly. Jim and I have both taken many athletes and sports figures to task for saying anti-gay things. We have broken many of these stories, including the Jeremy Shockey comments years ago. This was not REMOTELY anti-gay, homophobic, or insensitive. I'm glad people are pointing to my column and thinking they can tell gay jokes. At least they see that not all gay people are overly sensitive whiners.



GLAAD does a lot of great things. And usually they get it right, when to react and when not to. This one, they got wrong. What he said was not libelous or slanderous. Please, whom was he libeling? Whom did he slander? If anyone, the only people he insulted were his own players!

And sorry, Outsports was tackling sports long before GLAAD knew what a field goal was. We'd be around with our without them. Incidentally, Neil is a friend - and a good friend. I've met Ted Rybka, who runs their sports desk now, and like him. These are good guys whom we disagree with on this issue. We enjoy working with GLAAD when there is space to work together (and there usually is). We never said GLAAD wasn't good; we simply disagree with them and their statement on this issue.

"This was not REMOTELY anti-gay, homophobic, or insensitive".....to you.

I'll decide for myself how I should feel, thank you very much.

"I'm glad people are pointing to my column and thinking they can tell gay jokes"

Good. We'll remember that the next time an athlete tells a "fag" joke. You think it's GREAT!

Then the controversy would have been that Phil is admitting to watching porno...God forbid anyone in this country publicly announce that.

Personally I didn't find the joke offensive. If anything, this thread shows that the GLBT community does NOT come in one stripe and that difference of opinions exists. Frankly, I think it is healthy that there is diversity even in our own lil OS world.

yes, and vice versa. you seem upset that we're not offended. If I respect your right to be offended, you respect mine to not be. This board allows people a forum to express their views. Thanks.

Ummm...it must have been a slow news day in the sports world if this was the best they could find to pick about. GMAB!

Didn't find it offensive from a gay perspective, the offense may come from it just being a silly joke.

Though had he told a joke of a heterosexual nature about "penetration" I think some women's groups might be in an uproar.....so it was no surprise to see some gay groups speak up about it.

Yes, and i don't like being called "whiny" and "overly sensitive" because i disagree. A lot of these responses are along the lines of "can't you take a joke?" If there's one thing i can't stand, it's people accusing other people of not having a "sense of humor". If i find something funny that you don't, does that mean YOU don't have a sense of humor? of course not...it just means your sense of humor is DIFFERENT than mine.

As i said before, I guess this means you guys will give every athlete who makes an anti-gay crack a pass, right? After all...it's just a 'joke'.

I agree with JiP's assessment: Meh.

I do worry that we're sending a chilling message to straight people: Don't you dare try and make a joke about the gays.

I was just reading an article in the NY Times today about how some TV shows are daring to make racial jokes.

“Remarkable people, the Blacks,” Alec Baldwin says on an episode of “30 Rock” on NBC. “Musical, very athletic, but not very good swimmers, and again, I’m talking about the (Black) family.”

With all the sensitivity around white people (esp.) making jokes/comments about black people, it is actually refreshing to see this type of humour accepted.

And I wonder if we, as gay people, can't also be a bit more tolerant and accept that straight people may want to make a gay joke every now and then (just as gay people like to make gay AND straight jokes). I'm sure Phil Jackson's intent was not to malign or degrade gay people. I think we need to look at the bigger issues rather than these types of trivial things, which merely distract from truly malignant homophobia.

When it's not offensive, we'll say that. When it is offensive, we will say that as well.

Well, it IS your website..I guess you get to decide what's offensive.

It's an editorial. His opinion. Cyd isn't telling you to feel the same way. Be outraged if you must. But now that you have been so offended, do you plan on doing something about it?

Bottom line-bad joke, bad apologies.

And the difference between the incidents Cyd (and many of us) have been pissed about have been with guys like Jeremy Shockey, Tim Hardaway and Reggie White. Those (and the mnay others Outsports has comiled) were hated-filled rants. Jackson used bad judgement but in the world of hate speech, this wasn't even a blip on the radar for me.

My initial reaction to Phil Jackson's Brokeback Mountain joke was simply to groan good naturedly at a bad joke and not really think much else about it. Much more interesting to me is the reaction and debate here on Outsports. I think Outsports is missing a key point in its initial article and subsequent reaction to people and organizations who have been offended by Jackson's comments.

The attitude and history of the person telling the joke is a key factor influencing how many different people will react to a joke. Would Outsports and all the other people supporting Jackson on this issue react the same way if Tim Hardaway had made the same joke?

In the world in which we live, I personally need more information about Jackson to take a position to defend him, defend the joke or in any way criticize someone who has been offended by the joke.

I read the sports page daily, watch Sports Center or some other sports news show every night, but I have no idea of Phil Jackson's personal politics, attitude and history toward gay people and gay issues. Therefore, from my perspective Jackson is an unknown regarding gays. So, justifiably or not, my next reference point for Jackson is the NBA and professional sports.

What is their track record on homophobia and gay issues? The simple existence of Outsports is clear proof that the track records of professional sport and many of its owners, coaches and players is atrocious.

Now, if Phil Jackson is different and has a history of being supportive of gay rights, then considering whom he is representing and the environment in which he exists, it would be better reporting by Outsports to inform its readers that Jackson is a friend. Conversely, without providing that information, it's not fair for Outsports to criticize people for being offended by the joke and labeling them 'whiners'.

The joke isn't a big deal, but it is mildly offensive. Why? Because he could have mentioned any number of straight films in which there is penetrative sex, or maybe one of those ubiquitous sex videos of c-list celebrities (ala Paris). But he didn't because he wanted to convey the sense of being humiliated, and gay penetrative sex is seen by many (ignorant) people as humiliating for the bottom guy. There no such connotation with respect to straight penetrative sex, even anal sex. So the joke plays on and perpetuates the connotation of gay anal sex being ineherently humiliating. I don't think it's unreasonable for some people to find offensive a joke that plays on stereotypes.

Cyd: You're glad you can show 'that not all gay people are overly sensitive whiners????'

Wow, that's some baggage. Do you really feel that way?

Indirectly, persons who have gay sex (I think, anyway). But whatever. Though I can take a joke (as well as zing them with great transgression), I guess I do still think of the young people out there who might be stung (even if slightly) by what Jackson said (in the same way that they might be stung by hearing the word "faggot" tossed off unthinkingly in their presence), and therefore reassured that someone called him on it.



And I meant it more in the abstract. Organizations like GLAAD (founded 15 years before Outsports) and Act Up and the Human Rights Campaign have all paved the way for a more tolerant society in which gay people and organizations can thrive.

I agree with this. At the very least, making a Brokeback Mountain joke is unfunny and passe; more likely, it's just another outlet for mildly offensive/non-racy anti-gay humor. People who make cracks like that, especially in public, tend not to be on our side.

Well considering his track record w/ Dennis Rodman & all the bizarre & overtly homo publicity stunts that he pulled, I would gather that he's probably not homophobic....Hmmmm!....I'm trying to imagine what Tony Dungy would do if one of his Colts players would pull a Dennis Rodman stunt while on the team? Especially if the media confronted him about it. I think his reaction (or lack of it) would be quite different to Jackson's...Just sayin.

I heard the comments Phil Jackson made in "live" form on one of our local sports talk stations. I did not even chuckle. I did not find it so much offensive as it was not funny. The hosts on this show were sounding just like the editors here at Outsports.com. I heard "why is everyone so upset" and "people cannot take a joke" comments all from them. His apology was funnier than the original joke he made.

I have a very good sense of humor and I am not easily offended. What I think people have is Brokeback Mountain joke fatigue. After the movie came out, Jay Leno and David Letterman did nothing for months but come up with every stupid gay, gay cowboy, penetration joke imagainable. I got to the point I could not watch either of there shows for awhile because I frankly got sick of it. The short story that Brokeback Mountain came from is an amazing piece of literature and the movie is an amazing pice of cinema that will not be forgotten for a long time. It touched a lot of people very deeply and I think that is the reason why a lot of people get upset about some of the "Brokeback" jokes.

Do we need to spend much time getting upset about what Phil Jackson said? No, I don't think so. The things we need to be upset about are sports talk radio shows that have a weekly feature each week called "Gay/Not Gay". This is a segment each week where the guys bring up things that happen and ask each other is that Gay or Not Gay with the implication and understanding that gay is not good. I find stuff like that extremely offensive. I have thought about writing the station about it but down here in free-thinking Texas (sarcasm), I would probably be just laughed at.

We need organizations like GLADD to keep their eye on what others say and do. Sometimes do they overeact, yes they do. But I would rather have them around to point out the really wrong things so that our community does not go backwards in society.

Just listened to the podcast and I'm going to have to join the chorus that this wasn't so great. Offended isn't the word that comes to mind, but my immediate reaction was to groan, say Jackson is a jackass and that the joke isn't that funny.

So if he had said, "We call that our Best Little Whorehouse in Texas defense; endless penetration and kick outs," the public would just yuk it up?

I guess what bugs me is the idea of the Lakers sitting in the clubhouse brainstorming funny descriptions like this, and their funniest is a gay joke. Seriously. Don't appreciate that.

And yeah, Brokeback jokes are so old.

While I'm not especially offended by his crack - it was stupid, bfd - I am disappointed in the lengths to which Cyd defends it. It was hardly clever or innocuous, and as most of us know from experience, the worst thing you can be accused of in the world of sports is being gay. It's the first and last line of offense to get under another player's skin.

There wasn't even a hint of maliciousness in Jackson's wisecrack. What happened to our collective sense of humor? Do we admire a clever turn of phrase only when it's directed somehwere else?

Phil Jackson did not make a "clever turn of phrase." He dug up an unfunny joke that played itself out a long time ago.