Naturally during times of controversy, change, and emotional complexion does one attempt to understand the depths of what drives our deep seeded passion and support for a university/college. For state universities, alums and non alums embrace one another on game days in comradely to champion and reflect pride in their home state.

At private universities, alums and family of alums unitto share a pride for their school and in many cases that private institutions of their school particular mission. College athletics unites people and the relationships that's built as a result know no out of bounds or isn't limited to the campus the games are played on. College athletics go far beyond the games. It's a cultural that's unparalleled. While I am biased, I feel comfortable is saying college football is superior to professional football. I'll take a college game every day of the week and TWICE On Sunday ( no pun intended).

The athletes, students, band, cheerleaders, alums, boosters, and proud non alum fans come together and unite from all walks of life to support an idea that's intstilled into them mostly as kids. It's a legacy that will be passed to future generations. It's all about relationships.

I read this post today that put college athletics into perspective to me. Yes, it's WVU related, but I feel it represents all the schools of college football. When rare controversies of coaching changes, money, and disagreements arise we all need to step back and allow the value of college athletics to resonate as the special relationship it has with each of us. Once we do this its easy to see whysupercedes even the nastiest of fall outs when universities whether that's Alabama, Auburn, Michigan, Notre Dame, and yes my beloved Mountaineers are in a gray area of attempting to steer it's path while staying true to the wholesome values that make college athletics pure.


Fans and the relationships with it's players are college football's greatest asset. Our coaches may come and go, but the commitment to our teams/players are unwavering.




A post I think all of us can relate to:



When I was a child I was presented with my Mountaineers. My father, like his before him, had the Mounties as an integral part of his life. Times were always tough and a day off was not a luxury many could afford. My dad was a house painter and he worked daylight to dark 6 days a week most weeks. There were even times when he would work all day, come home and eat and nap and then go back and work through the night. The radio was his constant companion and his window to Morgantown. He would listen as he worked, and often he would listen when we had a Saturday outing as a family. I can remember the emotion of Jack Fleming streaming like a magical lute from a world I could not quite grasp.

I remember, as the years went on and I grew old enough to be truly invested, watching the extreme emotions that those words could illicit from my dad. I recall how nervous both he and my grandfather would get. The sheer joy and utter pain they would feel. My personal memories begin with Don Nehlen’s first year and the magic of the following years. We were seldom ever televised then and I had mainly my imagination of what Dane the Train looked like plowing through the line. Oliver Luck was my Robin Hood; Steve Newberry and Tim Agee my Butch and Sundance; Darryl Talley was the scary monster that I wanted on my side. Jack Fleming painted a picture that flowed so perfectly into my mind that I couldn’t imagine those lucky souls in the stadium could see better than I. Woody would always have an anecdote that would lighten even the most tense moments, whether it made a whole lot of sense or not. I remember feeling like I could cry when the fates let one slip away. I recall feeling like life had reached perfection when a Mountaineer team with no shot not only beat Oklahoma in Norman… but really beat Oklahoma in Norman. Man… they were playing prevent in the last few minutes because Hoss had lit them up so badly that day.

I remember so much. The basketball team led by Greg Jones that played a brand of ball that was just a thing of beauty. Beating UNLV on television was just an explosion of joy.

I remember a lot. What I remember most is that no matter how hard life was, we always had our Mountaineers. My grandfather never attended WVU, though he loved the school like he had. My dad never did, he worked all the time to provide for me and my sister. I never attended WVU, there was never that kind of money. I joined the Army and during that 1993 season that everyone got to experience live, I was in Camp Casey, Korea. I got to listen to those games too, though. My dad would tape them and mail them to me.
Three generations of my family have relied upon our Mountaineers for so much. Our vacations invariably have been dictated by bowl games and tournaments. Our Saturdays in the fall and nights in the winter are planned according to radio/tv availability. No matter how bad a football season was… basketball was on its heels. No matter how rough a basketball season went, the blue-gold game was just around the corner. Summers were the time for dreams. Everyone is undefeated in July.

No time is too tough and no troubles too much. We are proud of every single young man who dons the uniform and they are immortal in our memories. I never seen Arty Owens play, but my dad showed me from his memory. My son will not recall Owen Schmitt or Pat and Steve; but I will show him as I was shown.

There is nothing like it anywhere in this country. No one can understand but us. You know what I remember? I remember what Rich Rodriguez forgot. I remember what my son will one day remember and what none of my family will ever forget; We are all Mountaineers in West Virginia and there is nothing like it anywhere else.

With all of that said, I will support whoever is hired as the new WVU coach. I’ll support and believe success will come because I don’t know how to do anything else. The kids who wear that uniform make me so damn proud and I will believe in them as long as there is breath left in me. I’ll always believe, and I’ll never forgive any who wrong them.

Thats the spirit. I dont think is the coach that makes the tie in between fans and school, while I hope Leavitt stays as long as he can at USF. I will support the Bulls always no matter who the coach is.
Times have changed and fans and alumni are not willing to seat thru 2-3 losing seasons. The same coach that everyones praises today will be faced with calls for his firings if he struggles in 2 or 3 seasons.
So I can understand why they would move. WV is a fine pogram with loyal fans they will get someone of quality.

Totally agreed. The atmosphere of college football and basketball seems to unite communities in bigger ways than professional sports do. I get the sense from most college games I go to (at Mizzou or other state schools) that going to the games is a treat and people feel privileged to be part of such a strong community around the team. Professional sports are just that - people being paid to do their thing, without any sort of allegiance necessary to fans, media, etc. Leagues like the NFL and NBA I just don't care for all that much anymore because they seem contrived and overly commercialized. Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to admit the Capital One Bowl and the Papajohns.com Bowl are purely a result of our capitalism, but the people we're watching on Saturdays have more at stake than Tom Brady does every Sunday.

I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way since I don't mean anything by it, but why would someone become invested in a team if they're not a student or alumnus of the school?

It seems to me that if you're neither a student nor an alumnus of the school, then you're no different than a fan of a pro team. You're buying a product. You're not a "shareholder."

I'm not saying that students & alumni are better than regular fans. But since college teams are an extension of their respective universities, why bother if you don't have that tie to the university?

Good Point Tex. However, 50 percent of all college football fans who attend games are mostly non alums.

Why do fans attend professional sporting events? Do the Atlanta Hawks, Falcons, or even Thrasher fans attend those game because of the athletes or do they attend to represent the pride of Atlanta.

A) Most could care less about the pride of Atlanta. It's about supporting a team that;s winning or losing and seeing athlete compete at the highest level of their sport. If a team loses, no big deal life goes on. IN college football and basketball, it's a gathering of like minded people from all walks of lives who live, breath, and die college athletics especally when it'sw representitive of their home state.


Do you see 100,000 plus fans at NFL games singing " Good ole Rocky Top, Rocky Top Tennessee" along with the bad after a UT score or win. The pride of that alone resides in all 100,000 of the fans. Those fans go home throughout the state of Tennessee and tell their friends about that experience. The experience of tailgaiting, of seeing Tennessee run therough the T, of hearing the announcement " IT's FOOTBALL TIME IN TENNESSEE". Also, the social aspect of Tennessee having over 400-600 yachts that drive upa nd down the Tennessee river and dock in downtown Knoxville to celebrate being not only UT fans BUT TENNESSEANS. You can sit by a a fan at a UT game and after a conversation you realize he grew up in East Tennessee and attended a small baptist college Carson Newman back in the 1960's. He's not an alum, but guess what? He and his son attend 3-4 games a year. THis non alum Tennessee fan flies from Montana ( yes Montana) because his son is being indoctronated on UT football I am not certain his kid will attend UT, but you bette believe his son understands what it means to be a Tennessean and Volunteer. He'll pass it on to his kid and in no time he'll be wearing Orange.


THe same applies to me. I attended UT for financial reasons but I was indoctrinated into the UT culture at 10. My grandfather from WV's influence was too powerful as my brothers, sisters, and cousins changed to UT after the move into Knoxville. I never wavierd. I support UT and love the Vols. It's hard not to when all my living family are all Volunteers. Some people make their choice on schools and teams later in life. I made mine when I was 7and my grandfather and I watched the 1981 Peach Bowl where WVU trounced FLorida. That was it for me. I got a blue and gold subscription every month after that and haven't missed a beat.


It's all a matter of perspective.

GME,

Nice perspective, but, to use your example, unless every Tennessean is a student/alumnus of the Other UT , the non-student/alumni fans are STILL just buying a product - Tennessee football. They have no connection to the university that football team represents other than being located in the same state. That "tie" seems weak, IMHO.

OTOH, for students, the players are their peers. They are their friends, classmates, & neighbors. They know what it's like to be a student at that particular university. For alumni, they too share the same experiences at that particular university, although perhaps during a different time period.

I'm not saying that there should be a rule against being a fan of a school or that there's anything wrong with being a fan of a school you never went to. It just seems silly to me to expend time, money, & energy on a school that you either don't go to or didn't graduate from.

P.S. Where did you get that 50% figure from?

I like Cal because I live in the Bay Area and a friend of mine is a hard-core fan and when we were together, we had season tickets

he still does-I don't

INteresting to say the least


My family has had UT ( the real one that resides in Knoxville) season tickets since the middle 1980's. None of them have every attended UT. I was the first and only UT alum from my family. Guess what my family purchased this past year? AN over priced yacht just to use on UT football gamedays in Knoxville. Why> SO they could include 30-50 of our closest friends into the UT experience of sailing up the Tennessee RIver with Rocky Top glaring parking next to the rest of the Vol Navy and having some outstanding food and drink.
Usually when I am in Knoxvillle at football games, my crew/possee is usually 50 percent alums and 50 percent non alum fans. It's one big Tennessee celebration.


Many state schools are like this. I'm sorry it's not registering with you.

Sorry for striking a nerve.

No Honey, it' not a nerve that's been struck, it's more of a realization that college football fans are even more special because on pro football's best day, it's still and will always be the game played the day AFTER collee football attracts 5 million specators on any given Saturday makng it the most popular sport in America for a day event.

FYI


If you are going to attempt to striking at something, I suggest another target unless you relissh defeat, HON.

1. A college football fan who isn't a student/alumnus of the university is no more "special" than a pro football fan. As pro football fans don't own their team, neither does a non-student/non-alumnus "own" the university.

2. Assuming your 5 million figure is accurate, you need to look behind the numbers. There are 119 teams in Division I-A alone. Compare that figure to only 32 NFL teams. Of course there will be more people in attendance on Saturday than on Sunday. Duh!

Sorry to make you mad, you Mountaineer wannabe (from a family of Volunteer wannabes).

Well, we do agree on something!!

I've tried to explain my love of college football vs the pro game to my non-sports friends...
I love the fact that at places like Lincoln, State College, Eugene, etc that you can get anywhere from 50,000 to 100,000 all wearing the school's colors to games. There is nothing like the energy in the small towns on Saturdays during autumn....

I relate to being a "Spartan" much more than any of my allegiances to any pro teams...

is he counting all schools in his 5 million figure?

you have junior colleges; NAIA, NCAA III; II and I-AA schools

roughly 72 NCAA I-AA schools; 141 NCAA II; 144 NCAA III

90 NAIA schools

so yeah, I can see the 5 million number

Lesson One

Non Alums contribute to the university a lot more than you think. I send donations yearly to WVU, University of Tennessee, and the University of Tennessee Women's Athletic Department. As you and many are probably unaware UT's women athletic department is one of the few universities that runs it's athletic program seperately from the men's. You can do that when you average 13-15k ( depending on the year) in women's hoops. Anyway, many non alums write genererous checks. So to suggest our relationship is similar than the typical unemployed overweight uncultured ( pretty funny, eh?) burping NFL fan is comical. Do NFL fans donate money to the NFL franchises aside from wearing those god awful jerseys with their huge stomachs popping out? NO. They don't.



Lesson Two

Honey, the 5 million statement is spot on.


Check out this for instance:


Home Opening day this past year for SEC schools:

SEC

107,000 Tennessee
93,000 FLorida
92,000 Alabama
84,000 Auburn
72,000 Arkansas
65,000 Kentucky
90,000 Georgia
60,000 Ole Miss
47,000 Miss State
90,000 LSU
80,000 South Carolina
45,000 Vandy

Around 1,000,000 in the SEC alone



Big 10

110,000 Michigan
104,000 Ohio State
106,000 Penn State
85,000 Wisconsin
64,000 Purdue
71,000 Iowa
73,000 Michigan State
70,000 Illini
60,000 Minnesota
43,000 Northwestern
50,000 Indiana


950,000


Those 2 conferences a lone are close to 2 million. Granted, during conference games, not every team plays home games, but opening weekend and non conference teams, BCS teams host these games are for the most part the attendance is close to what's listed above.


I just used these two conferences as an example.


Add the Big 12, Pac-10, Big East, ACC, CUSA, MWC, WAC, Sun Belt, all of 1-AA, Division Two, Division 3, NAIA, and JUCO


There is no doubt America is a college football crazed country.


College football> NFL


Any questions?


P.S.


I don't get mad. Just make sure your "slaps" connect. I hit back with uppercuts. Just so you know

1. I'm sure the folks at WVU don't give a rat's behind who you are as long as you're sending them money (& they didn't have to bother educating your ass - what a bargain!).

But once again, you're buying a product (in your case, WV athletics)...just like fans of pro teams.

2. Since the vast majority of the construction of new NFL stadiums are subsidized by taxpayers, NFL fans do donate money to the local NFL fat cat in the terms of lost tax revenue. NFL fans also "donate" to the local NFL fat cat by purchasing the scam that is "seat licenses."

3. I've seen many games involving Tennessee. And I've seen plenty of Tennessee fans who look similar to the NFL fans you disdain so much.

At least NFL fans have the sense not to wear pastel orange.



Uh, I didn't dispute your numbers. "Assuming that your 5 million figure is accurate" does not mean I was saying that your number is wrong (although only ~half of the stadiums will be in use on any given Saturday).

I'll try to spell it out for you:

1. There are 119 Division I-A football stadiums.
2. There are 32 NFL stadiums.
3. 119 > 32
4. Assuming there are people in the stands, of course there will be more people in attendance on a college football Saturday than an NFL Sunday. Duh!
5. The fact that there are more people does not alone make college football better than the NFL, esp. when you consider that you're not comparing apples to apples.

A more thoughtful analysis to gauge the popularily level of the college game vs. the pro game would be to look at the attendance in terms of the percent capacity of the stadiums.

In addition, college football has become a business, like its pro counterpart. In business, the amount of revenue you're producing is a measure of how popular your product is. I'd bet that, per capita, the NFL produces more revenue than college football, & is thus more popular in terms of the product it is selling.

Yeesh, Tennessee must be where Aggies came from.

Maybe next year UT-minor will make a BCS or even a NYD Bowl game.


Enjoying the two season hiatus? Good luck with that, hon.

do I need to put y'all in separate corners?

play nice kids

You mean I have a reputation for not playing nice?

Shocking

So instead of bolstering your position by offering better facts and/or rationale, or otherwise refuting the arguments I made, you resort to quasi-personal attacks?

Sorry to inform you, but you're not getting a rise out of me. Instead, you're making yourself look even more foolish.

Re: your attacks on my alma mater & its football team:

1. I will put the academic reputation of my alma mater up against yours any day.

2. I can look at Texas football objectively & go on and on about the failings of Mack Brown & Co.

Having said that, I will put the accomplishments of the Texas football program up against yours - or your wannabe program - any day as well.

I'll even add the rest of the athletic program for good measure.

As will I. Where should we begin. I am feeling charitable, so you can proceed first

I'll allow you to decide which school I will represent UT ( the real one located on the banks of the Tennessee River) or WVU ( a university started to represent and distinguish itself from the backward thinking confederate loving eastern schools of Virginia (VMI, UVA, William and Mary).

1. Athletics



2. Academics



3. Attendance



4. Traditions



5. University Mission as a whole: ( if you don't understand this, please say so. I'll gladly be charitable to explain in further detail).





P.S. Thanks in advance for ending your obvious temperamental feelings while initially posting into one of common sense. Kudos, Mate. Well done.

In the spirit of learning by doing, below is a list of links to facts & figures regarding UT & its athletic program. Your assignment is to thoroughly research the info provided & report back:

1. Where UT exceeds UTenn or WVU (I don't care which school you want to represent - I am confident either way); &
2. Where UT lags behind UTenn or WVU.

ACADEMICS:

http://www.utexas.edu/welcome/

Be sure to read through the links under "University Facts and Information."

ATHLETICS:

Generally:
http://www.texassports.com/

Specifically:
http://www.texassports.com/index.php?s=&am..._article_id=101

See also:
http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/champs_listing1.html
&
http://nacda.cstv.com/directorscup/nacda-d...us-scoring.html

Your report will be graded.

Now get to work.

Texas is clearly better academically and athletically than both WVU and Tennessee...this is a weird argument to start to say the least. Texas is #44 in the latest US News rankings, Tennessee is #96 and WVU isn't in the top 125. The Directors Cup and all-time D-I championship numbers speak for themselves.

As for criteria like "traditions" and "university mission as a whole," that's just a prettiest baby contest. Everyone believes his own school's traditions are superior and more meaningful, and success in fulfilling a given institution's mission can be defined however you want.

I'll with Tennesseee for this thread and champion WVU in the next.


University of Tennessee

Athletics:

Football


Neyland Stadium

107,000 capacity

UT ( the real one located in Knoxville) is far superior IMO in athletics. 107,000 seat stadium versus Texas's 80 plus stadium. UT fans come by land, water ( over 3-4k fans travel the Tennessee River to dock in downtown Knoxvillle), and by air. yes, Air. Knoxville has an island airport located in the middle of the Tennessee River where the French Broad and Holston River meet to form the Tennessee River. Yachts are ready to transport these fans into downtown Knoxville which is by far the best gameday enviorement ( yes better than Morgantown). It's as feastive on Cumberland strip that's unrivaled in America.


While Texas has won a national championship more recently, UT ( the real one. is this resonating, yet?) has by far the better resumet. UT plays in the SEC and has been to more BCS and NYD Bowl games. Texas sucked in the 80's ad mostlu 90's after entering the Big 12. Texas was always a product of playing in the Weak SWC and still couldn't compete for conference champions on a yearly basis.





Basketball:

23,000 state of the art arena


UT's basketball history is 2nd to 3rd ( Arkansas has a good claim for #2 ) best in the SEC. THe plays in the largest on campus arena in the nation. UT-Minor beat UT this year, but didn't UT beat UT-Minor the past 2 times last year and the year before? Also, what has Texas accomplished before Tom Penders came to Texas? Wasn't crowds of 4k the norm in one ugly arena? Hell, UT went from a 13,000 sold out arena ( Stockely athletic center and upgraded to 22k and is averaging close to 20k this year. UT by far has the better basketball program then, now, and in the future.


Women's basketball.

UT-minor has a cute program, but are you seriously going to argue UT-Minor is remotely on the same level as the Lady Vols and Summit. I would remain mute ( something you need to learn ) on this aubject.


Baseball:


UT has a good baseball program, but admit UT-Minor has a better program. GOod for you. Want a
cookie? You win at something.



Softball:


UT #2 in the country this past year


Track and Field-


UT Is a top 5 program in the country


Women's soccer

UT is a top 10 program





Here is te bottom line


UT like WVU doesn't compete in knitting, water gymnastics with one hand tied behind your back, jumping jack touching toes cordnations, and so forth.

Those rankings mean nothing to me.




Academics:


UT has some outstanding programs.


Transportation and Logistics undergraduate is ( it was during my college days) program is the #1 program in the world at UT. Graduate school programs like MBA, Communications, Lawm and History are top 30 programs. It's all on fields and speciality.


UT-Minor has some outstanding programs, too. I love that UT-Minor's Law program rejectd George Bush. IMO, that makes me a proud supporter of UT-Minor's law program. Provide me the address. I'll gladly supply a check to support it's outstanding admission standards.


If I think of more, I'll come back later, until then



P.S.


Aren't you on the wrong board to be championing the NFL over college football. Did you take a wrong turn or do you find the college football board moe entertaining? Both?

Who carries NFL games anymore? PBS or the History Channel. It's hard to keep up with now days.


Chow

Thanks, golfer 24!

Re: "traditions" and "university mission as a whole," when you don't have much to crow about, you gotta start inventing categories.

I get a kick out of Gym. He keeps digging himself a deeper hole & won't stop.



You failed miserably.

You didn't do a side-to-side comparison of UT & UTenn as assigned. Instead, the thrust of your argument was to cite capacity figures for the football stadium & basketball arena, along w/ some current rankings for a handful of teams. From that, you came to the erroneous conclusion that UTenn is better than UT both academically & athletically. Your report shows that your work was poorly researched (despite being spoon-fed the resources) & poorly thought out.

YOU ARE HEREBY ACADEMICALLY INELIGIBLE. ANY FURTHER PARTICIPATION IN THE MESSAGE BOARDS ARE FORFEIT.

To whom:

Who cares who's better between Texas, Tennessee, and West Virginia??

Signed,

Everyone else.

Because Illinois is superior to all three.

Love,

Illini_fan.

Why you Gen Y punk!

Don't offend Gym. His dad can beat up yours.

Yeah right, so much for WVU's "commitment" and "tradition"....

"WVU may have to pay $1 million for unused Fiesta Bowl tickets"
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/bowls07/news/story?id=3171541

.....no wonder they're suing Rodriquez --they need the money!