Any softball umpires out there? I have a question on a call, perhaps some of you can help?

Last weekend, in our first game of a double-header, we were on the field (the defensive team). Our opponents had a runner on 2nd base with less than 2 outs. The next batter hit a hard pop fly to left field. The pop fly was caught cleanly by our left-fielder. The guy at 2nd base did not tag up, instead he started running on contact (I guess he thought the ball was not going to be caught...duh?). Anyway, our left fielder attempted to throw the runner out at 3rd. The ball was over-thrown and got by our 3rd baseman. The umpire ruled 'dead ball' and allowed the base runner from 2nd to score. While I would typically agree with this call had the runner 'tagged up' from 2nd, I disputed it with the umpire. Admittedly I do not know the correct call, but it would seem that one rule would not override another? Was this the proper call?

I am not an umpire but i do play alot of softball. I think what you should have done is thrown the ball to second base and appealed that he left early. If you dont appeal that portion of the play then i dont think it makes a difference. Grandted the Umpire doesnt sound like he is to with it. He should have been watching the runner to see when he left. the fact that the runner was moving on contact makes it sound as if the Umpire doesnt know the rules himself. But i still think that you have to appeal him leaving early. Not sure.

JeffWa...that is the first thing I did. I had our players throw the ball to second for the appeal. But the umpires logic was, 'it doesn't matter that the runner left early, the ball was overthrown, ruled a dead ball and the runner automatically is safe' The bottom line is that he could be correct, I don't know the rule. But it seems awfully strange that one rule would override another in that situation. I should think that there should be some sort of penalty for the runner not tagging up and leaving early.

You should contact your head umpire (UIC) to get the correct call. It seems to me that the runner should be out on the appeal that he left 2nd early, regardless of what happened after that.

On a side note, if a runner leaves early, you have to throw to that base and appeal (which you did). Umps do not call a person out for leaving early unless the opposing team does something about it. I think you could either tag the runner, or throw to the base, but I've never seen an ump call someone out for leaving early without an appeal by the defense.

Weaselman...thanks for the input. I had considered contacting our head umpire, but since I'm not 100 pct. certain of the rule, I didn't want to be labeled a 'trouble maker'. I've been playing/coaching/managing softball for many years, so I'm familiar with the appeal process when a runner leaves early.

CHi athlete, Sounds like you do need to contact your head umpire. In all my years playing and coaching softball i have never had a situation where a player was running on contact with less than 2 outs, ball is caught in the outfield and the player doesnt go back and tag. I have never had an umpire call him safe either. Usually you appeal and they just call them safe and let the play stand. Or they call them out. Sounds to me like this guy should have been out.

You might try posting the question to the MLB ump on here. Its the same rule as in baseball. If the ball is hit to the outfield and there is less than two outs. The runner Must Tag no exceptions. Other wise they would not have the rule that the runner must tag on a fly ball with less than two outs. hehe sorry i am trying not to get any real work done today so i am trying to find the answer to this online somewhere

I think it all depends on how you pose the question. At this point, obviously they're not going to change the outcome of the game over this call, so just ask your head ump what the right call should have been, or pose it as a "what should we have done in this situation" question. I would think the UIC would want to know if his umps are making mistakes like this so he can clarify the rules with them if necessary. Let him know about your concerns regarding your "troublemaker" status so he can tailor his message to the umps appropriately.

Definitely in baseball, even if you award bases (which you do in a dead ball situation), you still must touch all bases.

The umpire should have awarded the runner home, but than should have subsequently called that runner out on a proper appeal.

Josh

When looking at the scenario the umpire made the correct call. The ball was still “live” after the leftfielder caught the ball since the runner could advance with less than two outs. Had the play gone to second, as it should, the runner which had not tagged up would have been called out on a force, or the third baseman could have caught the ball and tagged the runner to record the out.

Had the runner been called safe at third (ball remained in play) an appeal to second would have been needed which is somewhat difficult with one umpire watching the catch and tag up at the same time.

Since the ball went out of play a “dead ball” was called and the runner was awarded the number bases allowed. Had the ball stayed in play, the runner could have attempted to return to second. Since there was no out recorded, the runner must be forced or tagged, once the ball left the playing field it was dead and the runner leaving early becomes mute since the actual act of not tagging or leaving early itself does not record an out.

Just my interpretation.

GLB I believe your partly rite. However the first and foremost issue is that the runner was on second with less than two outs. A fly ball was hit to the left fielder who caught the ball cleanly. The runner on second base was running on contact as stated. Sounds as if as soon as the ball was hit he was running. Ball is caught in left field then throw made to third over thrown dead ball runner is awarded home.....however on an appeal that he left early from second and did not TAG he should be called out.

Once the ball leaves the playing area and ruled a "dead" ball, the runners are awarded their bases and the play is over. At what point could there be an appeal? If an appeal was allowed, it would negate the fact the ball was “dead”. With your interpretation then can the runner appeal that had the ball stayed in play he could have attempted to retreat to 2nd? That is why the play is over as it all becomes non-issue. What if in during his/her being awarded home, the runner returns to second and then continue home? There are so many “what ifs” that are clearly resolved by ending the play.

The reason that this really doesn’t matter is because as I stated before, the running error itself does not record an out, the defensive play being completed is what would cause the out. This did not occur because the ball was thrown out of play. If you allow an appeal after the fact then you are penalizing an offensive player for a defensive miscue.

So why is there a Tag rule at all? If in this situation you can merely run when a pop fly is hit to the outfield and you dont have to attempt to tag. I agree with you and believe your rite. It makes sense that the runner was on his way to third on so on the overthrow/dead ball is awarded home. I still feel that an appeal at second should have called the runner out as he did not tag and rules state,

EFFECT Sec. 5. K-Q. In these situations, the ball remains live and in play, the involved Base Runner is out and other Base Runners are in jeopardy.

S. When a Base Runner leaves his base to advance to the next base before a fly ball has been touched or touches some object, provided that if the fly ballis caught and returned to a Fielder and legally held on the base left, or if a
Fielder touches the Runner with the ball before the Runner returns to retouch his original base.

I dont understand how a dead ball situation would render this rule "mute" I also agree that the play should have been thrown to second instead of third and an appeal immediatly made. However mistakes are made blah blah....It just doesnt make sense that the tag rule would be rendered mute because of a dead ball.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2005/200...tball_rules.pdf

I stand corrected pages 68-73 of the NCAA rules state there is the "live" and "dead" ball appeal. We go by ASA rules but their rules are not available online, I doubt they are fairly similar.

My interpretation was always once the ball was dead the play was over. So what should have occured is that the runners were given the appropriate bases and then once the ball was returned to play an appeal should have been made.

Very interesting. Thanks, appreciate your research into this.

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