This came to mind when I read the advice of a straight British television personality who had a tragic marriage to a gay HIV-positive man and now apparently advises young people not to rush coming out.Sensible advice I would say.

But there are a lot of people inside and outside the gay community who would understand if she were adamant that gays come out as soon as possible, as the author seems to be aware considering the beginning sentence of the article.

The subject came up with some friends recently and the experience seems to be that young gay men have very different attitudes about expressing their sexuality than our generation: from the casually effeminate, to the cross-dressed, to the total transexual. But I know of few who are what I would call straight-appearing but openly gay in our older generation, or in the younger generation. What's your experience?

"“I get a lot of letters from kids in this situation, and my advice is always ‘Don’t label yourself’. Do yourself a favour, and just be yourself."

I hear this kind of thing often and find it extremely facile. When I am "just myself," I am gay. It's an accurate descriptor. Maybe that advice is a more PC version of saying, "you don't have to be like those gay people." You know, the faggy effeminate ones who take crystal meth at dance clubs and live in the Castro. I'm having trouble thinking of a more charitable reading.

As for appearances, I've seen a wide range, from fraternity president to Queen of the Nile. Gay guys seem to be more effeminate than the average straight guy but not overwhelmingly so.

Meh. I just don't think there's a one-size-fits-all approach to coming out or living as a gay man. My coming-out experience was 100% fine and I'd recommend doing so to anyone who wouldn't be putting themselves in danger of physical or financial harm. Unless you decide never to live with another member of the same sex, your friends and family will find out eventually--IMO might as well get it overwith now. (To expand on that, I don't know ANYONE who regrets having come out; that group is obviously a self-selecting subset, though.) But we all have out own decisions to make.

Back in the 1980s she married a closeted gay man who died of AIDS. If that man had been out back then she wouldn't have been married to him. Other than, perhaps, "be yourself," she shouldn't be advising anyone about anything.

My understanding of her advice that you don't have to come out is a recognition of the reason, or reasons, that her former gay husband did not come out: he may not have been comfortable seeing himself as being like any of the openly gay people he knew. Her advice to young gays is more her way of coming to terms with her problem with him than with helping young gay men.

Times have certainly changed. But the "gay scene" is still dominated by a culture of people who seem to seek the most extreme behavior that they can in order to express or perhaps find themselves.

I never identified with that gay scene before or since coming out. The recent gay pride festival here was a case in point. I attended a couple of them decades ago and quickly became bored with them. From what I hear they haven't changed much and have, in some ways, become more extreme to make a point. At the same time they have become part of a dreary establishment.

Either way they have little meaning for me. Though I'm glad that people have fun doing them. And I am elated that they can now have them without serious harassment.

I like her advice as much because it has helped her as because it is just common sense.

I personally feel there is too much emphasis on coming out. It appears coming out is this weigthlifting and monumental occassion. Yes, people around me most likely wouldn't care and life would go on as usual. These same people don't care if I have sex with men as I don't care about other people's sex lives, gay or straight. I know this is not a black or white situation, but that's what it breaks down to.

I have read many posts and articles that suggest coming out is the only way to truly be happy. I'm suggesting that making a big deal about coming out can create submission to sterotypes. Everyone has their story and coming out may not be the end all to one's homosexuality. I tend to agree with the quote in the article.

The black and white issue is whether you are being true to yourself. Yes, I agree that if you are a sixteen year-old realizing he or she is gay and living in an abusive or fundamentalist household with no other place to go, then it might be wiser to wait until you come of age, have completed your high school education, and can rely upon yourself to come out. Until then, I would also counsel that teen that there are places that gay teens can feel safe until then.

What I do not understand is living in the closet as an adult and that speaks to whether you are being true to yourself. Closeted people do not like something about themselves. They have not accepted something that is only a part of what makes them individuals, but it is a very intimate part of what makes the individual special. Look, the way I live my life is getting up in the morning, looking in the mirror, and liking that reflection. Closeted people do not like their reflections. I know, I was there.

That British TV personality did not succumb to any stereotypes. Abusive father, failed marriages, substance abuse, or what not. She overcame many obstacles to be successful, when some might have thought otherwise.

No one is asking you to issue press releases on your sexuality. And of course, only the prurient want to hear about what goes on in the bedroom. But when asked if you are gay, and you deny it....well, that's wrong. David Hyde Pearce (or is it Pierce?), when asked about his sexuality replied, "My life's an open book. I just don't read it to everyone." Fine. Keep some things private. A closeted man might enter a marriage with a woman, issue chest-thumping denials, and become homophobic. Think Larry Craig.

One last word about stereotypes. No label accurately describes the totality of an individual. But what's wrong with being labeled 'gay?'

I think the question is how you define "coming out."

If coming out = changing who you are and adopting the "gay lifestyle", then that's probably not such a good thing because you are changing fundamentally who you are. For a young person, who might not yet understand who he is (remember all the fads and fashions one went through as a teen?) this might lead them down the wrong path. But it might not, too. It might be liberating. And that other young people are more accepting, and that there are more (and more diverse) role models for young gay people, and that there are support groups for young gay people... I don't think it's any better to tell young people to "act straight" until they're an adult.

If coming out = accepting who you are, being proud, and allowing others to know, then that's probably good.

Canmark, I'm always bemused and confused by what people mean by "gay lifestyle." Does one truly exist? What are its characteristics? The term is more often used by those who wish to denigrate, discriminate, and denounce gay men and women. Moreover, these people want to deny fundamental human rights to us. Does it mean I'm living a "gay lifestyle," when all I want to do is hold my boyfriend's hand as I'm watching a movie with him or lightly brushing his hand when we're out to dinner, or the other myriad, little things that connote affection? I see straight couples do it all the time. What's so different when I do it?

Allow me to state more clearly what I meant in my earlier post. If I were to counsel a 16 year old gay teen living in a homophobic environment, I would steer him or her to appropriate school counsellors, PFLAG, or some such organizations best qualified to inform him/her of the opportunities and venues available where he/she would be welcome. I certainly would not advise them to "act straight." But for many gay teenagers still, coming out can be unsafe.

Being true to oneself can come in many facets of life. Coming out and announcing that you are gay does not necessarily equate being true to yourself.

Every person does not like something about himself or herself. It's only natural. If one does not, then perhaps it is denial. What a person does not like about himself or herself has nothing to do with being gay or straight. It could a minor aspect of someone's life to something major. I do not like something about myself one day and the next day, I'm fine with it. Can people be that cynical to believe that gay people do not have the same problems as straight people? Gay people have money problems, marital and relationship problems, family problems, etc. People should evolve and let themselves off the hook sometimes. The fact that I like a blow from a dude is so secondary in my life and trivial, FOR ME. It is not a fact I need to announce to the world. It is not a big deal. If I find the right man one-day, perhaps I will make the declaration that I am gay. I have straight friends that hide the fact that they are dating someone because they are not sure of the person they are dating and do not need third party opinions.

It is fine that you do not understand the closeted lifestyle BigBlueCowboy. Many gays are not open to it. There are a handful of gays that do not want to fight the good fight and evolved or taken a different path to not be part of a group and just live, and as hard is it may be to believe, these gays are happy. I am happy in my closet and who I let in would have a great time.

Is it wrong to deny that I am gay to someone that I do not owe an answer to? I agree with David Hyde Pierce's statement. Basically it's none of anyone's business, at least that is my interpretation. It does not make me wrong. What does admitting homosexuality get you? It gets you the same thing as denying it, nothing or perhaps bragging rights if one confirms homosexuality???

Labeling of any kind is wrong, but for what it's worth..............I am an Independent, Sports Junkie, Agnostic, Wh0re for Jack Daniels, Perfectionist, Introvert, Genuine Friend, Wh0re for good live music, Good listener, Racist, Drink a lot of beer, Stuck-up, Serious, Funny, Flirtatious, Give good credit card, Hard Worker, Passionate, Wh0re for Jake Delhomme, Loyal to my family and friends, Hard on my friends, Forgiving, Hold a grudge, etc..................& gay. Just for the record, these are welcomed and unwelcomed labels.

Hiding the fact that they're dating someone isn't the same as hiding the fact about their sexuality. They're not hiding the fact that they're straight. They're just not talking about specific individuals.



But David Hyde Pierce isn't hiding anything. He's been in a relationship with a man for 25 years. He's been living his life in full. His friends and associates all knew it. He wasn't hiding anything. He just didn't talk about it in interviews.

There is a difference between yourself and David Hyde Pierce -- make that a HUGE difference.

I strive to simplify things in my life and when it comes right down to it, annoucing homosexuality is basically telling people that you date, are married, have sex with people of the same sex. Other than that, for the most part gays are no different than straights.

My adaptation of David Hyde Pierce's statement is it is none of anyone's business. It is a need to know basis. As I mentioned, if I find the man of my dreams then perhaps I would feel a need to be open. Even then I would have no need or reason for that matter to talk about my relationships with people who don't matter in my life or just ask intrusive questions just for their lame fodder. My true friends and family would never do that, but they have no interest in my sex life as I have no interest in theirs.

Your "true friends and family" have absolutely no interest in your dating life? You are 100% neutral on the subject of whom your best friends decide to marry? Your parents have no opinion about you possibly having children? Relationships are about spending a life (or at least a few months) together with someone, not just sex.

Hmm, I'm not sure that her life experiences qualify her as a sensible advice giver to young gay people. She had a terrible experience with a man some would call closeted - I would call him deceptive and disrespectful and dangerous. She also mentions a nasty queen she worked with - clearly she's had some awful difficult experiences with men who happen to be gay - that doesn't make her an expert.

Coming out before you're emotionally and financially independent is a great challenge...As if High School and those teen years aren't confusing and difficult enough. Some people are pushed out of the closet because they may be more obvious than others. That's tough. Unsupportive families: even tougher. I hate suggesting ever that not coming out is a good idea but really it's just smart and practical sometimes...It's a tough world - being gay carries hurdle after hurdle especially when you're young. So I don't disagree with the advice to delay coming out until later but after reading her experiences; I doubt her point of view as balanced or even compassionate. She's had a rough life and I can appreciate her helping people through her talk show. But we all know that just because you've got a show or a program or a reality show doesn't mean you're instantly able to provide 'good' advice.

I've thought long and hard before posting in this thread again. I've decided that I cannot ignore one of the labels you give yourself, delhommedude. "Racist???" After reading that, I had no desire to carry on a conversation with you. I don't know if there is anything more repugnant than racism. But rather than ignore it, I'd rather confront it. Again, I condemn it, but I want to understand it, so I can root it out. Delhommedude, this forum is a way that you are expressing your homosexuality. Staying in the closet, as I read it, is based on fear and ignorance. Racism is also rooted in those. People who harbor racist sentiments or thoughts are projecting their fears, anxieties, and inadequacies onto another person or group in order to compensate for their lack of self-worth. This collective fear and ignorance has led to the genocides and mass murders of the twentieth century. It's also led to very dark chapters in American history.

As a kid in high school, I made racist comments about someone. I knew better than that. But because I wanted to belong and deflect attention away from me being found out as something I was scared to be, i.e. gay, I called a sixteen year old friend, "my little @&^^#* doll." Not one of my friends at the time found the comments funny or welcome, thankfully. And I regretted making them. To this day, those comments haunt me. I haven't seen that young woman who was the target of my disgusting behavior in 25 years, but I can still see her face. I hurt her in an attempt to make me feel part of the larger group to which I wanted to deny her belonging. I've come to understand since then, that all I was doing was projecting my fears onto another, so I did not have to confront my lack of self-worth.

I hope that you understand the analogy I'm drawing. I more fervently hope that you embrace your homosexuality, but as equally, if not more important, reject that label "Racist."

Again, as Joe in Philly wrote, David Hyde Pierce is living an open life. As a public figure, he choses not to discuss his private life. So, too, do Anderson Cooper, Jodie Foster, and Queen Latifah. Their friends and family know. They live out lives, not hiding who they are. They're just trying to maintain privacy as public figures.

They are unlike Senator Larry Craig, former Congressman Mark Foley, another Congressman from California, a certain governor from a southern state, who live in the closet, yet advocate and promote homophobic and anti-gay legislation. I could go on, but again look to the analogy I drew above.

Good comments have been made so far. I do, too, think that it is hard to come out when you aren't financially or personally ready. I have a friend that made the decision to tell his mother recently that he is gay. She nodded her head, and kept going with the conversation. It was never discussed again.

Have I told my parents and family yet? No, I haven't. And I am constantly being asked by my mother when I am going to bring a nice girl home, and give her grandkids. I change the subject because I am not ready. I am 28 going on 29 in November (the 14th for the people that keep up with the birthday thread). I don't know what I am waiting for. Part of it is me not wanting my mother to feel like she messed up divorcing my father when I was 9 and not having a male figure in my life for large chunks of time made me "gay". Or get the sermon that I am a good black guy, went to college, have things going for me, and would be such a catch for a black woman. And not to mention that I am going to get a ton of bible verses from my mother telling me how wrong homosexually is, that I am going to hell if I don't repent, or if something happens to me (for examples, get sick or get in a near death car collision) that God is trying to tell me to repent and change my ways.

But like delhommedude (though the racist adjective does suck), my friends all know. My co-worker knows. Both of brothers know. Only one of them has told that is gay. The other one basically lives with his boyfriend.

The British personality, wow, her life has been an inspiration. I am glad that she has found the strength to go on.

I know that racist is something to certainly be proud of

WTF???

I think *some* closeted people have different ideas, misconceptions and stereotypes of what "coming out" really means. For me, it was NOT about shouting it from the rooftops, wearing the T-shirt, throwing a parade or riding on a float, moving to a "gay ghetto", putting on a dress and wearing make-up, hanging a banner in my workplace, flying a rainbow flag outside my front door or immersing myself in the "gay lifestyle" (whatever the freaking hell that means).

To me, coming out (age 21) was a slow and cathartic experience where I shared with my genuine friends one at a time in an intimate conversation, trusted family members that I felt should know (one at a time) and my medical doctor (it was the early 80's, he needed to know). I have not lost a single friend or family member for being gay that I've come out to in the past 27 years. Not one. In fact, there have been a few friends that I didn't plan on telling, but they gave me strong signals that they knew and were OK with it (always a great suprise and nice feeling). These are true friends. People you want in your life. If you are living a lie, you'll never know who your real friends are and you're not being a true and loyal friend to those you think you are being a "genuine" friend to. Being gay does NOT simply equal a sexual act Delhomme.

I'm lucky in that I have worked at the same place for the past 24 years and have been with my partner for the last 23 of those. I didn't so much come out to co-workers, but rather let them get to know and like me and I just became myself. I used the term "we" and my partner's name all of the time. They all went through our first house that we built, numerous vacations, "what did y'all do this weekend" questions and other happenings. I didn't have to come out a say "I'm gay" to a single one of them, but they know. They treat me and my relationship just like everyone else in the office. It's just a matter of fact that I'm gay, not some huge scandal or opportunity to judge.

After finally admitting to myself that I was gay, the burden and heavy weight crushing my chest went away when I started telling those important to me who I was. I can't tell you how much happier I became just by sharing. It's just incredible.

The first person you tell that accepts you and does not judge you will be a moment you will never forget. I'm nostalgic because the first person I told just died over Memorial Day weekend at age 52 from cancer leaving a husband and two daughters in their early 20's. Her friendship and understanding meant the world to me.

As far as a 16 year old coming out, it all depends on the circumstances. I would suggest holding off unless you are living with open and non-judgemental people who will be at a minimum understanding if not accepting. Otherwise, it's probably better to wait until you are a little more "on your own" and truly understand your feelings. (For me, I knew at age 8 that I had crushes on men. At age 14, I read a Reader's Digest article about pubescent boys that "experiment" with other boys and mostly grow out of it, however not all....I was waiting to grow out of it and it never happened.)

The truth will set you free.

Yo, fellow Scorpio. Maybe there's something to that astrology stuff 'cause I could have written that entire post almost verbatim.

The exception being my relationship with my father which has always been strong and never wavered. It helps that we respect each others intelligence and sense of values. Sexuality is probably the biggest difference between us.

Oh, and I'm a day after you on the b-day chart.

As a guy who is only a decade and a half from official senior citizenship (assuming the age limit isn't raised, and I think it should be) I'm finding a lot I agree with in just about everyone's comments.

Delhommedude, it's your perogative to decide if, when, and where you wish to come out because it mostly affects just you. But claiming to be a racist affects many people, and not the direction you should be going. I have often wondered how people who identify themselves as such can root for players not of the same race as themselves. I could be wrong but I am guessing given the opportunity to meet Steve Smith or DeAngelo Williams your tune might be different.

Agreed. Which is why I want to clarify that I put "gay lifestyle" in quotation marks because those are not my words, nor my feelings. Perhaps I should have said the "so-called gay lifestyle".

At the same time, I would say that there are some people in the gay community that would say there is a "gay culture" which encompasses some things that one might call a "gay lifestyle." So, I think using a phrase like "gay lifestyle" or "gay culture" is not necessarily a negative--nor does it necessarily reflect the life, lifestyle or culture of many gay people.

PLEASE READ THE UNDERLINED SENTENCE IN RED..........


Labeling of any kind is wrong, but for what it's worth..............I am an Independent, Sports Junkie, Agnostic, Wh0re for Jack Daniels, Perfectionist, Introvert, Genuine Friend, Wh0re for good live music, Good listener, Racist, Drink a lot of beer, Stuck-up, Serious, Funny, Flirtatious, Give good credit card, Hard Worker, Passionate, Wh0re for Jake Delhomme, Loyal to my family and friends, Hard on my friends, Forgiving, Hold a grudge, etc..................& gay. Just for the record, these are welcomed and unwelcomed labels

We have all been called or labeled things we are not even close to. I was being sarcastic mixed with a bit of dark humor. I could hardly be a racist, I'm gay and Latino. Know any racist group for Gay Latinos?

By the way phillyrunner, Steve Smith is a ride I would love to take!!!

There may or may not be an organized racist group for Gay Latinos. Even if there isn't, that doesn't automatically mean you can't be a racist. You could hate African-Americans. Or Caucasians. You don't need to join the KKK to hate those that the KKK hates.

You threw out that whole statement of labels. You've doubly emphasized that they aren't necessarily labels you want. What people are trying to figure out is whether you are speaking hypothetically or if someone has actually accused you of being a racist. And if someone has accused you of being a racist, why? And what is your response to that accusation?

Ok glad you cleared that up, I wasn't trying to make an accusation, just understanding what I was reading. It's not always easy to detect dark humor on discussion boards, without the use of emoticons alot can be left to interpretation.

As Joe in Philly said, Delhommedude, why on earth did you throw THAT label out? But, like my friend, phillyrunner observed, I, too, want to give you the benefit of the doubt. Hatred of any kind eats away at the core of a person. Don't go there!

I want to second what HornFan said so eloquently. Being gay is more than just a sex act. It's way of looking at life. In some ways, it's made me appreciate how fragile and fleeting it can be!

Currently reading Leslie Jordan's My Trip Down the Pink Carpet which has one of the more insightful coming out stories I've ever read.

The chapter where he has what he calls his real coming out at 42 is both hilarious and heartwarming, and like all of his humor - OUTrageous in the the most traditional sense.

But the fact that it occured in front of a group of heterosexual recovering alcoholics is what made it the real coming out experience for him, though he has been obviously effeminate for as long as he can remember.

Many young gay men will never have that type of experience because more and more it is okay to be gay and not effeminate. But I think it still makes it more difficult to come out, especially for athletes.