Just saw this interesting article (by Cyd Zeigler) on the Village Voice website: Straight Guys (No, Really—They're Straight) Are Finding A Home In Gay-Sports Leagues

From the article:



If half of the league is straight, is it still a gay league? What if more straights join, making them the majority?

Interesting.

The only reason why straights want to play in gay leagues is because they want to dominate and feed their inferiority complex.

I think gays should just grab the straight guys' asses and crotches whenever they see them. If they get uncomfortable enough, they'll leave....

I'm not sure if you are kidding or being sarcastic but...I'm the manager of my softball team and we have a couple of straight guys on our roster. I can assure you that they are not there to "dominate and feed their inferiority complex". They are friends of gay guys on our team and they don't like the uber-competitve, win-at-all-costs attitudes of the many of the "straight" leagues. They enjoy the fun we have and we socialize during the offseason as well. And they are not necessarily the best players on our team (that would be me ).

I'm dead serious. And if you don't believe me, then you are in denial...

Maybe you're the one who's in denial. Years ago the team I was on had a straight guy and his attitude was NOTHING like what you describe.

Maybe that is the case with the straight guys you've encountered but don't tell me I'm in denial. I've played on teams with straight guys for 20 years and have never once encountered what you describe even once. Now perhaps there are guys like this on other teams but I haven't seen it ever. The guys I've played with bring their wives and girlfriends and invite us to their weddings and kids birthdays and Christmas parties.

Playing with us opens alot of their eyes to just how good many of us are at sports and how much we know about sports and the strategies. These guys are NOT playing with us (and by us I mean my team) to win trophies and dominate the gays. By thinking that, you are the one who thinks yourself inferior.

What do you suppose these guys you are talking about do...go back to their wives, girlfriends, straight friends and brag about how they dominated a gay league? Their straight friends would mock them mercilessly. "Wow big deal, you beat a bunch of fags!"

This has certainly not been my experience in 15 years of playing flag football so I have no idea where you come up with such a declarative statement.

It's comparative to a guy playing in a girls league. Why would a guy want to play w/ girls?? Girls have their own leagues and teams so they can get away from men. Women have their own gyms! Maybe gays want to play in a league to get AWAY from straights. To play in an environment where they dont have to hear "locker room" jokes.

Most straights think gays are inferior people. They assume you're always looking at them or hitting on them. Gay teams, leagues, and tournaments are a place where gays can (for once in their lives) get a BREAK from all of that...

If I'd want to play w/ straights, I would play in straight leagues or tournaments.


So, what would happen if I wanted to join a women's gym? Or play in a women's league? Same line of thinking...

No, it's not. You are totally stereotyping and oversimplifying sports leagues of all kinds and everyone who plays sports. Maybe a therapist can determine if this is the view of a self-hating gay person, a gay person who's prejudiced against straights, a sexist, or what.

Nevermind.

My experience is only with a running club (Frontrunners). We had a number of straight guys who ran with us socially, ran races, including using the locker room at a gay gym. They were just guys.

My former softball league (Steel City Softball) puts limits on the amount of straight people per team. Allegedly, the reason for this limit is that teams would "stack" their rosters with straight people, giving them an "unfair advantage".

I think this is one of the most boneheaded rules I've ever encountered. It's like the league is saying that straight athletes are better than gay ones. I think they should follow the example by the New York league and move such a team to a higher division, not put a quota on straight players. It's too bad sexual orientation isn't a protected class, because then the straight people could file suit and cite Bob Jones University v. United States , in which the IRS took away nonprofit status from Bob Jones University based on their discriminatory admission practices.

As to ESPNZone's comments, I think it's ludicrous to think straight people have some sort of inferiority complex. That thinking is what continues to divide gay people from the rest of society. I guess he doesn't believe that straight people join gay leagues out of open-mindedness and goodwill. There were quite a few straight people in my old league, despite the league limit. I enjoyed playing alongside them. I wish that more straight people would join gay leagues.

Gay heterophobes. That's sort of like black racists. Makes me realize why I've never been a joiner.

Okay, so what you are basically saying there is saying that it is perfectly alright for a gay guy to play in a straight league or tournament, yet if a straight guy wants to play in a gay league, he shouldn't be allowed to. If you had your way and gays could ban straight people from their sports leagues or tournaments, what would prevent the reverse from happening? That would be rich, especially if you consider that it might be interpreted that any organization could do the same. Years after the Civil Rights Movement, places that once displayed signs that read, "No Negroes" could then display signs that read, "No Gays".

On a lighter note, if that happened and somehow gays were forced to sit in the back of the bus, a guy dressed in drag could refuse to give up his seat and become the gay Rosa Parks!


If a woman could play quarterback for an NFL team, don't you think that she would? Unfortunately women's bodies are for the most part less physically capable than male bodies pumped full of testosterone. Gay people are capable of the same physical feats as straight men, so comparing a gay man to a woman doesn't really help your argument.


Wow, well I've now told 8 guys I wrestled with in either high school or college and thus showered with and seen naked that I like guys. All had absolutely no problem with it. I'm also a much more successful wrestler than all but one of them, so I'm sure they see me as inferior.

Now, my favorite quote,

Yup, just like straight people should call a gay guy on their team a faggot, a queer or some other insult, or hell, just sexually harass him in any way possible just so they make him uncomfortable and want to leave. This is the most moronic thing I have ever read on this board. You have to realize, it works both ways. If gays can do it to straights, then straights can do it to gays.

OMGZZZZ, your analogy is WAAAAAY OFF BASE.

What's the purpose of "gay leagues?" Do they exist just for gay folks to have a place to socialize? To hook up? Or do they exist similarly to women's leagues (can't compete equally with the men)? I've always played on traditional (?) sports teams and have no real concept of the gay designation and what it implies, so maybe someone can enlighten me.

Buccoman,

I sent the following to you personally, and I am posting it here, and under Gay Sports Movement, so many can read it if they want to:

Bucco,

In my case, going back to 1980 or so, the year I moved from Cincinnati to San Diego, a 'new gay movement' was about, for gay and lesbian people who enjoyed participating in sports. Tom Waddell, 1968 Decathlete Olympic Bronze Medallist in Mexico City led the charge. You can google his name for the details of the founding of the Gay Games, if you are not familiar.

The first Gay Games, temporarily called, "The Gay Olympics", were scheduled and held in San Francisco in 1982. I was aware of this from a tiny notice in a local gay newspaper. Unfortunately, I could not participate in 1982.

Gay Games II, quadrennial as the Olympics are, was scheduled and held in the Bay Area once again, in 1986. Only this time, there was much more advance notice and publicity. Here in San Diego, in the summer of 1985, a group founded Different Strokes Swim Team to go to the Gay Games in '86. I became a member of that team, as a swimmer and a springboard diver.

This scenario was going on all over the US and Canada in a myriad of sports, focusing on that one week in San Francisco, the summer of 1986.

My thoughts at the time were first; I personally needed to workout to feel good about myself. Second, swimming and diving were my high school and early age sports, at which I had done well, and upon which I could continue to improve. Third, I sensed an urgency about the local gay community to begin clubs for sporting events which gay and lesbian people could join for their health, enjoyment, and stimulating social interaction (sex? partnerships?).

Front Runners is an example of a running club that spread rapidly across the country in those years. And it was part of 'the running craze', with universal appeal, beginning a few years earlier. In early 1986, well in advance of Gay Games II, these types of clubs recognized each other, and formed somewhat of a union. Here it was called "Athletes in Motion". In other cities, it was "Team Los Angeles" for example.

The Gay Games motto includes, "Participation, Inclusion and Personal Best". Many of us at that time, bought into this concept for Gay Games II, and committed ourselves to fostering the movement for Gay and Lesbian Sports. It was a very scary time for Gay men in those years. For many of us, our friends were dying in multitudes of AIDs. There was no hope. Except, some of those infected, and nearing sickness, found that they could sustain their lives that much further, if they energetically applied themselves to physical activity. And why not have that progress lead to participating in the Gay Games? People did live longer because of the movement, but not many survived that early onslaught of illness.

Years and more quadrennials, and more Gay Games came and went in the ensuing years, bringing us to today, anticipating Gay Games VIII. Cologne, Germany will be the host city this next event. What was a gay and lesbian sports development, and a 'movement' as I have called it here, is now an institution of substantial acclaim.

But again, irrespective of association, ability, label, or whatever, if you have arms and legs that work, and a brain that thinks, Gay Games welcomes you to Participate, to Include Yourself, and to try for Your Personal Best in the sporting events and activities that you love.

Go for it!

TRL

The formation of different sports activities/leagues for gay people was common in the major cities by the end of the '70's. There was a thrill to discovering that there were so many other gay people who were into sports and a sense that we were helping to debunk the more rigid gay stereotype of the times. It's good to see we've progressed to where people of any sexuality feel comfortable with each other in athletic pursuits and are questioning the need for gay specific leagues. While things are much better in more places, there's still many places where that is not the case. Joining a gay team or league would still have more appeal to me both because the jerk jock element shouldn't be an issue and the opportunities for more meaningful social ties. The early leagues not only gave an outlet for those who were committed jocks, but also offered a supportive atmosphere for people to try sports and not be exposed to typical jock scrutiny and ridicule- would guess it's still a good place to learn/ improve in a sport of interest. ESPNZ's comments reminded me of some of the debates we had in Boston's softball league in its first few years. There were a couple of straight ringers brought in who weren't necessarily all that comfortable with gay people or interested in learning to be. The gay bars were often much more supportive of teams than you'd find elsewhere. A bar's manager could be a big factor in what kind of team and players the team had, where free drinks, parties with drugs, and paid expenses to tournaments in different cities were sometimes bargaining tools. It's hard to imagine you'd find that or uncool straights in gay leagues these days. Leagues are good about playing time for all players, or at least in rec divisions, so I'm not sure where zone is coming from. I was fortunate enough to be part of the first Gay Games in '82- great feeling of comraderie and coolness that it was happening- AND Tina Turner was awesome in finishing up the opening day ceremonies, a couple of years short of her Private Dancer comeback!!

Excellent analysis college wrestler - good reasoning - !! I couldn't have said it better!

"AND Tina Turner was awesome in finishing up the opening day ceremonies"

Chip, Thanks for your rejoinder. I remember a lot of that then. But I'm still smarting about missing Tina Turner at the start of Gay Games I.

Can we get her back?

Still have plenty of memories from II, III, IV, and VI. Just hoping my body holds out for Cologne. See you there?

Thanks,

TRL

OK- I just have to touch on this because one stentence is pissing me off:

"The only reason why straights want to play in gay leagues is because they want to dominate and feed their inferiority complex. "

Are you kidding me? I'm going to assume you are gay. If so, you are basically saying in this sentence that gays are inferior in sports. I don't know why you'd insult yourself and everyone on this board... especially when it isn't true.

Also, when people join sports leagues they play with their friends -- whatever level that is -- super competitive or super social. I've played in competitive adult leagues and social flag football leagues (never any gay leagues) and based on those experiences people are there to play, have a good time, and win. Some are more there to have fun and some are super-competitive (like me), but no one is thinking about anyone's sexuality.

Hearing what you are saying it sounds like you have some serious issues with straight guys for some reason and you also sound somewhat self-conscious. Just go out, play sports, and have fun.

Ok, the way I see it is that gay leagues and teams offer members the opportunity to compete in a positive, open and supportive environment. This environment doesn't necessarilly exist in the context of a traditional "straight league". Moreover, I take personal offense to the implication some have made that gays, myself obviously included, are inferior at sport.

At the end of this season I will have put up with four years of the typical bullshit associated with college-level sport. Over this time I have met some good friends, and I generally believe it was a positive experience, but when it comes right down to it, everything is about performance and winning at that level; nothing more nothing less. Baisically the environment isn't friendly and it isn't nice, it's competitive and cut-throat.

With the end now in sight, I am looking forward to joining a gay soccer, rugby or triathalon team. The prospect of being able to stay in shape in a much more relaxed and personable environment seems quite nice. The last thing I want to do is go and compete with a bunch of losers trying to re-live the glory of their highschool or college days.

My only concern, and I hope someone can help me out with this, is that I don't see myself being much less competitve. I am going to slide tackle in soccer I am going to challange for the 50-50 ball and damn it! I want to win! Could this potentially be a problem in a gay league? If so I am thinking Triathalon might be the better idea.