So the rosters have been selected, and This Time It Counts! Yawn.

Here's a commentary from ESPN.com that says the players made the fewest mistakes in selecting players. And even with fewer selections made by the teams' managers, it looks like Dusty Baker made a couple of really questionable moves.

6.29 ERA?? What a joke. They might as well have put Jose Mesa on the roster.

AL Roster
NL Roster

There's some thing now where you can vote for the last player on the roster. And this time it counts, yada-yada-yada. Not sure how to post the link, though, I got there through the Red Sox Page.

The asinine Mike Williams selection proves how overrated closers, and the "save" stat, are. And illustrates that Dusty Baker is no genius.

At least Donnelly of Anaheim, the best reliever in baseball though he's "only" a setup man, was picked.

Was very happy to see 5 mariners make the roster, especially Jamie Moyer!!!!

Jason Varitek got robbed!

But you can still vote for Varitek on the special ballot thingy. Go to the Red Sox page...

Varitek does NOT deserve a spot over Giambi or Frank Thomas. In fact, you can make a good argument that the best catcher not picked (offensively, anyway) was Toronto's Greg Myers.

Geoff Jenkins is the best NL choice on the "final" ballot.

Yes, but Varitek is a hottie, and he's a Red Sox hottie. Case closed. Vote Varitek.

[ July 07, 2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

I know you like puncturing baseball sacred cows, Bill W, and I agree, the save criteria needs to be more stringent, but really, that's a bit silly. The Dodgers would be 15 games out if it wasn't for Eric Gagne. And there's other examples of how important a good closer is.

Anyone else going to boycott watching this game this year?

New All Star Game Concept: Sucks.
Reason to Watch Anyway: ALBERT PUJOLS!

I wouldn't call it a boycott, per se. I just won't be watching because there is some paint I need to watch dry.

To further show you the idiocy of Selig and his incompetent cronies they are now requiring all players on both squads to wear GENERIC National and American league jerseys instead of the home or road uniforms of their individual team, as has been the case for EVERY all-star game in MLB history....their rationale is that this will create more "team unity" with "less individualized" focus (oh yeah, they'll still let them wear their team's cap ) -- gimme a break!....when the priorities of the commish are this far out of whack, it's no wonder interest in this great sport is diminishing, particularly among our nation's youth....what will his next idea be?....to have the umps rotate from base to base between every batter so as not to have a "biased strike zone" all game long. :confused:

[ July 08, 2003, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

I think I'll leave the All Star Game on tv and get many other things done (cleaning, pay bills, read) during the game. Nothing like multi-tasking. :cool:

Please, don't give him any ideas!

Here's an article on the All-Star Game, what's wrong with baseball, etc.

Mickey Mantle's Baseball Hoax

Dontrelle Willis not being selected to this year's All-Star game has to go down as not only this year's biggest snubs, but one of the biggest snubs in history IMHO. The guy has the lowest ERA of any of any pitcher in baseball, has an 8-1 record, shut out the Cubs yesterday, and at 21 yrs old, is one of the few bright spots of the future of Major League Baseball.

But his case is an example of the biggest gripe I have about the All-Star game selections: it's based on a half-a season (+/-). If I could be bothered to research it, I could find guys who were great from April-June but faded. Obviously, it would mean playing the All-Star after the season or as as the opening game of the following season, so I don't know what the solution is.

That said, Willis should be there.

Varitek wins!!! Varitek wins!!! And the Jenkins guy I voted for (based strictly on looks) also won. Definitely watching the game now...

Let me get this straight...

David Wells is 11-3 with a 4.04 ERA, including 3 complete games, which neither Zito nor Sabathia have (doesn't make the All-Star team).


Barry Zito is 8-6 with a 3.49 ERA (makes the All-Star team).

C.C. Sabathia (whom Wells clearly outpitched and the Yankees shelled last night) is 8-4 with a 3.23 ERA (makes the All-Star team).

I didn't realize that .50 to .80 off your ERA was so much more important than getting games won. :confused:

Wow you really are evil.

You should check out this thread while you're here.

Spelling/Grammar Pet Peeves

[ July 10, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

You know. I LOVE LOVE LOVE William in this thread. We may not see eye-to-eye in many facets of life but in this one thread he supports the incredibly sexy and talented Jason Varitek, then well... you know.

Last time I went to a Red Sox game I got to watch Varitek shake his adorable ass as he waited for the pitch from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd base (and score). He has a very nice ass. I highly recommend coming to Boston for the view. William, you can borrow my binoculars. Just don't get any elephant dung on it.

Maybe the freakshow just doesn't like my David Wells in the All-Star Game argument. :confused:
Man, I thought I made some good statistical points. I didn't mean to set off a homophobic diatribe.

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Well, it looks like Dontrelle Willis will not only pitch in the summertime classic, but start for the National League. Kevin Brown, the projected starter(and a hottie IMO) was put on the DL this afternoon, and was replaced by Willis, who was one of the major selection snubs during the All-Star selections.

[ July 11, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: SmoothRon ]

Well, now you've learned. wink

Wells has had a nice year -- not as good as Mussina, or Clemens, btw -- but Zito and Sabathia have pitched better.

HOW is a pitcher responsible for the run support his team gives him? Wells and Roy Halladay are among the ten Luckiest Starters in the majors this year (scroll to the third table). Meanwhile, Zito pitches 8 scoreless innings yesterday and gets a no-decision. Throw a hurler's W-L out the window for a single season.

As deserving as young Willis is, Brandon Webb of Arizona (7-2, 2.41) is comparable... but perhaps he has a duller pitching motion (and personality).

Jim Allen, the Dodgers may be 15 games out with Gagne very shortly! He's a fine reliever, but Guillermo Mota has been better (over more innings). There'd be fewer games for Gagne to save if Mota didn't "hold."

I attended the Society for American Baseball Research convention last weekend in Denver, and was intrigued to hear two great baseball thinkers disagree on whether the managers will treat the All-Star Game differently -- ie, like a REAL baseball contest instead of a showcase/parade -- because of the World Series homefield reward. Bill James says they will alter their style to win, while Rob Neyer says he'll believe it when he sees it. Opinions?

Bill W., despite our fundamental differences about a certain team , you are probably one of only a few that can answer this. Since you brought up the fact about run support or as you and the stats link mentioned it as "luckiest pitchers", do you think that run support or lack thereof is also thrown into the equation when choosing the pitchers for the All-Star Game? I could count about 4 years where Mike Mussina (with Baltimore and the Yankees) has been screwed by his own team due to lack of run support.

Also, about the managers changing their styles regarding the game... I think that they will for only one reason... They are going to be under a microscope this year!

Barry Zito won't be going to Chicago so now there is a spot for Roger Clemens. How convenient! wink From CNNSI.com:

Zito No Go

[ July 14, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

I just read the Zito/Clemens item and was rushing breathlessly to post it here, but you beat me to it, George. wink

I heard a radio commentary yesterday from someone who said that Barry Bonds isn't in the Home Run Derby because, Bonds said, "I'm a grown man and I'll do what I want" or something like that. Nice attitude, Barry. No wonder everyone loves you.

Everything about the All-Star game has become an utter farce. Let's just do away with it entirely.

Actually, the full Bonds quote was:

"Because I'm a grown man and I don't have to do it. Did Michael Jordan play in the slamfest every year? Nobody asked him why. I'm 30-something years old. They didn't even ask me. Go ahead and get mad at me. Say what you want, but no."

The consensus here in SF is that the stress of his father's illness is taking its toll, and that he needs the extra day off. I realized he coulda phrased it better, but that's Barry.

Re: the Zito/Clemens thing, any conspiracy theorists here who think it was MLB putting pressure on the A's in order to kiss up to the Yankees?

If Selig, Alderson, Reinsdorf and the MLB brass wanted to add Clemens to the roster as certain members of the media have been clamoring for in recent days (using the sole justification that this is the Rocket's final season and that he deserves it as a "career recognition" of sorts) I have no problem with that (despite Clemens' inconsistent performance this season) -- but to snub Zito at the 11th hour without even giving the reigning A.L. Cy Young winner the courtesy of an explanation in advance is just plain wrong and utterly unprofessional -- not that I should be surprised by anything unprofessional that the "Selig administration" does anymore after all the harm they've brought to this great game already.

Despite the fact that Zito threw 106 pitches yesterday and would likely be unavailable to pitch in the "mid-summer classic" tomorrow night, that in no way justifies these actions....just being able to be on the team, announced to the crowd, and enjoying the camaraderie in the dugout and clubhouse (whether that exists or not) is more than half the honor of being an all-star....why don't they just add a position to each team for an "honorary player" that is near the end of his career to recognize the player's achievements over the past decade or longer?....that way, young stars like Barry Zito (who admittedly was a borderline selection based upon his 2003 stats) would not be told one day that he's on the team only to find out secondhand that his selection has been rescinded nearly 24 hours before the first pitch is scheduled to be thrown.

Regardless of how it affects the Yankees, the A's have to be happy. Would you rather have your Cy Young winning ace home resting or possibly having to pitch at a meaningless exhibition (home field advantage for the World Series does not give this game meaning) after having just pitched on Sunday? I don't know, given the new slant of playing to win, that Zito would definitely not pitch if he were needed. What if a simialr situation happens as last year and the AL runs out of pitchers? Torre might have to put him in.

If I were an A's fan, I'd be a tad disappointed that one of my players wasn't at the game, but I'd be happier in the long run having a rested, healthy (and hot as hell) Barry Zito for the playoff drive.

And yes, the notification of Zito was handled badly. But we are talking about MLB after all!

[ July 14, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

What does Bonds mean by "They didn't even ask me"? Is he claiming he wasn't even invited to the Home Run Derby? Cuz I don't believe that for a nanosecond.

I took it the other way. I thought that he was saying that they didn't even ask him if he wanted to do it: they just expected him to be there.

There aren't many people who are bigger critics of Barry's bitchiness than I am, but I'm giving him a free pass on this one. The man is nearly 40 years old. He plays everyday. Days off are precious during the baseball season, and with the age on this major league body, he's entitled to two of the three days off. He's earned it. He's needs it.

[ July 14, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

Rob Neyer is right in the short term; if the awful experiment continues for more than a couple years, then James will be right. Baseball changes at a glacial pace and I don't think they'll be adjusted to the new reality in one season. But over time, they'll eventually learn to adjust.

No doubt you've heard about the campaign to posthumously revoke the Pulitzer Prize awarded to Stalin apologist Walter Duranty back in 1930s (and if you haven't, well look right here -- the \"Revoke Walter Duranty's Pulitzer Prize!\" website from a Ukrainian-American activist group). So: when are you going to start a campaign to revoke Lamarr Hoyt's 1983 Cy Young award?

By the way: when are you going to start posting all (or at least, some) of the life lessons you learned at the SABR convention? Or are you going to make us have to buy eight-inch thick Bill James books?

[ July 14, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

RE: Zito situation. Seems like a whole lot of back-room bargaining going on. Zito goes to Chicago, but then is scratched and replaced by Clemens. Why? The A's don't want him to pitch, they say. Tough. And why did he go to Chicago in the first place? But then I turn on the TV and see that, despite the fact that Zito was scratched--he's still there! I think if MLB is going to scratch a guy, then he shouldn't be there. Otherwise it makes a mockery of the selection process because now the AL has an extra player (Zito, who is allowed to stay, but not allowed to pitch). And all this was done--it seems--to accomodated Clemens. Oy!

My undestanding was that Oakland management decided they didn't want Zito pitching because he had just thrown 106 on Sunday and he needed the time off. They just forgot to tell Zito!

Meanwhile, here in Boston, Martinez needs the break and Ramirez has gone to visit his sick mother. Neither will be in Chicago.

I'm getting the impression that a growing number of players would just as soon enjoy the AllStar break as play in the game.

Zito's OFF the official roster just because he can't pitch tonight? That's the most debased, craven bunch of shit. (Based on the 2003 stats that matter, he *is* one of the 5 best AL pitchers, as is Pedro!)

f**k Beelzebud, f**k the All-Star Game, f**k this WS homefield garbage (I hope the visiting team wins for the duration of the 'experiment'), f**k the generic AL/NL uniforms... Another diamond institution ruined.

The attention paid to the Home Run Derby is annoying, for kids and folks who are too shallow to appreciate the nuances of a game -- bravo to Barry for opting out. I didn't watch it; I can't take more than 3 minutes of Chris Berman anyway.

Cattledog, I think lots of baseball establishment "recognition" still massively overvalues single-season W-L records for pitchers, and RBIs for hitters -- when both stats are utterly interdependent on the player's teammates. The baseball writers' awards are the worst in this regard. Mussina certainly paid a price (a reason he moved to the Bronx?), Bert Blyleven is paying it in the Hall of Fame voting... Nolan Ryan went 7-15 one season and led the NL in ERA! As for this year's All-Star squads, Pedro and Brandon Webb should be there, and all 3 Oakland aces.

CITT, I forget what Hoyt's season was like, but the first Cy I'd revoke would be Bob Welch's!
Thanks for asking about SABR, see other thread ...

Bravo, BillW!....that's one of the most accurate posts I've seen on this board in a long time and it reinforces a position I've held for well over a decade, AT LEAST as far as won/loss record of starting pitchers are concerned -- I, for one, still think that the RBI category (taken in accord with batting avg, slugging pct and on base pct) IS a fairly accurate reflection of a hitters value to his individual team....not to get too far off topic here (again ) but the Nolan Ryan season you alluded to proves this point better than any single season in the history of the game IMHO -- in 1987 Ryan LED THE N.L. in ERA (2.76), STRIKEOUTS (270 K's in 211 IP), and LOWEST OPPONENT'S BATTING AVG. (.198) yet finished with a record of 8-16 solely due to the Astros anemic offense....if he played for a team with even an "average offense" Ryan would have been a lock for the Cy Young that season but instead some "experts" look exclusively at won/loss record and deem that season a failure :confused: ....I don't have the exact game by game breakdown of Nolan's 34 starts that year but I will dare say that he lost more 1-0 and 2-1 games in a single season than any starter ever has....the opposite holds true in the case of Roger Clemens two years ago along with numerous other starting pitchers who have benefitted from enormous run support to have "stellar" seasons (at least as far as wins are concerned) despite having very mediocre ERA's.

While I admittedly am somewhat of a "stat geek" (as if you haven't figured that out already), when determining the quality of a starting pitcher the FIRST two categories I focus upon are ERA and hits to innings pitched....which is why some networks that ONLY focus on a pitcher's won/loss record (which, unfortunately, is also an area that the BBWAA rely upon far too heavily when it comes to postseason awards) never fails to anger me :mad:

OK, I'll get off my soapbox -- geez, I feel so much better now having gotten that off my chest ....now back to our regularly scheduled 2003 All-Star Game discussion.

[ July 15, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

Thanks for correcting my memory on Ryan's 1987 season -- at least I was only a little off...

BTW, Zito *is* still on the official All-Star roster. I do think it's silly that they can add a player just because he's not pitching (and I also think the A's should've allowed him to make a 10-pitch appearance, if needed).

Ho-Hum, well the All-Star game is over and those American leaguers get to have home field advantage by defeating the National league 7-6. The supposed unhittable National league closers Wagner and Gagne got lit up. Too bad Smoltz didn't make an appearance.

I am sure there will be SOME people here who'll come in now to complain about SOMEthing regarding the 74th All-Star game. Why? Throw away your feelings or opinions about the idiots who run the game, or the decisions they make. Throw away your disdain for arrogant players or the like. Instead, enjoy this year's game for what it was--a good game.

Despite what the Owners, many players, and others try to do to it, Baseball rolls right along, ignoring the feeble tinkerings with its intrinsic nature. Baseball lived up to its charm, its nostalgia, tonight.

Baseball did itself proud with a good and memorable game; and Chicago did itself proud with a great showcase for sports' best All-Star game. You folks in the Windy City should be proud, and baseball fans should be proud.

Well said, ump....thanks for expressing the thoughts of millions of baseball fans so eloquently....tonight's game was enjoyable to watch in every sense of the word and personified much of what makes the game so great.

I'd also like to pass on a brief expression of appreciation to you and your fellow umpiring brethren for the contributions and importance that all of you bring to the game -- have a successful second half of the season.

Agreed, a very entertaining exhibition game (even though Varitek didn't get to play ). Good for the kid Hank Blalock!

Man, Jim Allen, if only Dusty had known Gagne is a closer, and can't pitch a lick in the 8th inning!

I fell asleep after Blalock's homer. It's *still* an exhibition game. But at least Oakland gets WS homefield now. wink

Same here, but I think you mean the Yankees get World Series home field advantage now.

I thought it was a fun game to watch. Like the fact a player from a crappy team (Blalock of the Rangers) had both the winning run (off the usually terrific Gagne) and the final out when he caught the Furcal shot. When Furcal made contact, I thought it was heading out of the park and that the game may have gone to extra innings. Fun game to watch. I was disappointed by Gagne's post-game comment that he shouldn't have been brought in and that Smoltz should have pitched instead. I'm sure Dusty Baker was saving Smoltz just in case there were extra innings.

~Adam

One small correction Adam. Blalock didn't catch the final out hit by Furcal; that was Magglio Ordonez of the White Sox.

Whata year for Garret Anderson. World Series ring, Home Run Derby champ and All Star MVP! That's one impressive trifecta.

Well, except the first is a team accomplishment, the second is an entertaining stunt, and the third is for one game. Anderson is a fine player, but he hasn't ever made my MVP top ten in a season.

Glad to see the generic AMERICAN / NATIONAL uniforms wound up being for workouts / BP / derby only. I guess Beelzebud does surrender to popular outrage sometimes.

24-10, with a 3.66 ERA. Flashy won/lost record, combined witha mediocre ERA. Tony La Russa's White Sox won the division and should've gone to the World Series that year, but lost to the Joe Altobelli O's.

I'll never understand why RBI is so highly valued, but runs scored is so undervalued. Whenever I've done fantasy baseball, my teams always lead my league in runs scored because that's the stat I value the most for a hitter. You win games by scoring runs and the players that can score are the most valuable, I would think.

You mean Seattle.

You all mean the Red Sox. Apologies accepted.