I was involved in a situation where one of my gay and friends and his straight female friends who brought 2 younger straight guys were using the word faggot at my friend's cabin in the North Geogia Mountains Friday night. My gay friend is a doctor here in Atlanta. He invited old friends ( females) of his from Mississippi he attended high school and grew up with to join us for a weekend. They brought 2 significantly younger straight boys who never were around what they considered mainstream sports loving gay males from what I observed.

My friend ( in some attempt to look cool in front of these 25 year old straight rednecks from Missisippi) used the word faggot to describe some guys in Atlanta. From there, it snowballed. He and I obviously had not had a discussion on my views of the word. If anyone studies the origin of the word, they would/should be appalled at how it was taken from it's original latin usage and mainstreamed into the English langauge during the Spansih Inquisition. Why some believe it started from an English ciggerate and was adopted in America, the word "fag" has a far more dark and evil definition and certainly pre dates the UK's usage of smoking a ciggerate.


Anyway, after my friend used the word, it seemed to open the flood gates for more conversation I found amusing and was thinking "Wtf" I have regressed back to High school. He has his bimbo 39 year old female friends ( one is a dentist in Mississippi) started discussing or suspected in high school. They said wasn't the typical fag that everyone pegged in H because he played sports. Btw, he only played tennis which I found comical anyone would reference or allude tennis as some great masculine macho sport t teenage boys play in high school to show how tough and straight they were or pass it off as the anti thesis of "gay".


After this, the 25 year old boys decided they could use the word and were talking about all the weak gay guys in high school were faggots and were complimentary of my friend and I because we weren't anything like those "faggots". I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry at such stupidity.


After 2 hours the conversation seemingly kept coming back to this like a boom a rang you can just throw away that keeps coming back to someone who can only point out the differences in people instead of commonalities. Finally, I had enough and gave an explanation of how the word faggot is latin for "small wooden tree limbs or bundle of sticks and during inquisition of Europe, when witches were being burned, among those sought out for
burning were gay people. They were required together the very "bundles of sticks" (the real
meaning of a faggot) with which they would beburnt. When the faggots (sticks) were runningout, gay men were thrown on the fire to keep itgoing for the witches. Faggot came to mean gayman to force them into thecloset for fear ofdeath. Scary, huh? I asked them to Think about what you aresaying -- who you are offending when say thisword, even if in jest to a friend.


It seemed to go over their head and my friend who is gay in an attempt to save face asked what I was attempting in making them uncomfortable. They probably didn't know the word and it's definition.


I ended up leaving that night and paying 150.00 for a cab back to Atlanta since I rode up with my friend. I am probably one of the least sensitive guys about issues like this. But I feel if you explain something to someone once and give them information and they can't apologize for using such a damaging word after they've been educated, who would want to spend a weekendwith these type of people or a casual friend who can't see the value in correcting thsi type of behavior even if it's not offensive to them. More comical the 2 women were married having affairs on their husbands with younger guys while their husbands had their kids back in mississippi.


Couple questions


A) Is it ok for gay people to use the word to talk down to what they see as more fem gay guys?

How would other on the board responded after those events?

My friend called today and said I over reacted and embarrased him by leaving at midnight on my birthday. I said overreacting would have been to make it confrontational and me simply leaving was the best option in my opinion.

wvderby, first of all you are to be commended for trying to educate the group as well as removing yourself from the situation after your efforts basically fell on deaf (actually dumb) ears. Your "friend" sounds like he really wanted to fit in with the straight crowd at any cost. What a nice Birthday present to you. The fact that they kept using the term after you expressed that you were uncomfortable with it showed a real lack of maturity and a complete absence of good manners. It was rude. Your friend should have stuck up for you, IMHO.

Personally, I never use the term. I don't mind gays using it every now and then as long as it's done in obvious jest amongst gay friends (that you know will not be upset or offended) because I usually have pretty thick skin when it comes to this, but I really prefer it not be used at all. I do not approve if it's used in a derogatory manner no matter what type of group is assembled. I definitely don't think it should be used in "mixed" company as it sends a really bad message....as your friend did with these young straight guys. It will just encourage them to use it in a hurtful manner in the future. This sounds like the perfect situation where it should NOT have been used at ALL.

These derogatory terms are just not necessary and serve no good. I also think your friend owes you a HUGE apology.

I think it depends on the context. The situation becomes much less safe when straight people are around or allowed to use it. I met a guy yesterday whose friend is in a band and part of their name is "fag". He said they are all straight and I was like, "so they think that it's cool to use the term fag just because?" Things got a bit uncomfortable and he said that they use it to confront homophobia in the band scene they are in. Despite the satirical elements, I wasn't really feeling that answer because a straight dude had just called me 'puto" because I was wearing lipstick and we were in a GAY bar. He was with gay friends and trying to pick up chicks. I made a comment about speaking 4 languages and talked about annoying straight people who come to gay bars and think they are tough but really have b*tch hearts. He left. I feel like in both cases these guys got comfortable and needed to be alerted to their bullcrap. However, I think it's important to try and stay within your element because you can't let outside people get to you all of the time. I would have rather ignored the puto dude but my anger got the best of me in the moment.

In your case, it sounds like your friend and the other people around are just really insecure. It reminds me of middle class black people talking about "ghetto" people or sending out those outrageous email forwards about hair salons and such just to make them feel like they aren't fitting into some negative social stereotype. And I've also been around gay men and lesbians whose level of trans-phobia was so strong that it was disturbing. Insult to injury is that there are people outside the group around to "validate" your specialness. I would have left the cabin as well, especially if you weren't planning to hook up with your friend for your birthday. If you were, I may have stayed and had rough sex and then not spoken to him in the morning. But otherwise, I'm out of there.

It seems like he owes you an apology. You probably won't get it and will painted as being too sensitive. I see the victory in your situation as being one where you express yourself and your feelings and your boundaries and let the chips fall where they may. This fall out definitely wasn't your fault.

No they are not, unless they are using it to mean a cigarette or bundle of sticks.

Best,

Drew

Thanks for the posts from you guys.


The entire situation was baffling. I guess this is the first time in my life I felt uncomfortable in a situation about being gay. I do disagree with Jay about gay people needed to stay in their element. I'm prior military, played sports growing up in high school and there after, and I would venture to say 75 percent of my friends or straight ranging from straight people I grew up with, miitary friends, college friends, and guys and girls I met at the gym. I've never had one issue. Most are former athletes, educated, and while we joke about certain aspects of each other's lives, we have an enormous amount of respect or each other and using such degrading words would be over the top.

After thinking about it this weekend, I believe this is a case of immature people from rural areas who albeit might be professional in their small little pond haven't been exposed to gay people who don't feel the need to apologoize for being gay or make other gay people who don't fit into mainstream America feel inferior as a way to make them seem more normal around straight people. Obviously my friend who is a doctor still feels the need to do this and it's obvious he has enabled them over the years of their friendship because he can't make an individula stand and still wants people to believe he is the exception to the gay rule.


With that being said, I still believe gay people shouldn't shy away from venturing out and having close friends with straight people. Unlike my friend Joey who wants to be cool with rednecks, it's u[p to each gay individual to tactfully correct behavior so it won't be repeated and when it is, that's when it's time to remove ourselves from the situation.

Interestingly enough, My friend believes I was rude for attempting to explain something complex and above the heads of people from Mississippi. I told him he was part of the audience I directed the conversation at since he seemed to have maybe enabled and initiated this type of dialogue. he didn't seem to like that now that he is back in Atlanta and his group of 4 Mississippians are back where they came from.

Derby,

I didn't mean stay within your element as in hanging out with only gay people. Most of my friends aren't gay, although I am working on making more gay friends who are cool. I meant staying within your element as in keeping your cool and not getting into a fist fight which is what I wanted to do in the bar this weekend. I just think if people know they can get under your skin then they will try and the fights and high blood pressure aren't worth it.

I know we sometimes use the word among ourselves just as African Americans sometimes use the n word among themselves although personally it makes me very uncomfortable. I mean, I'm Jewish and we never jokingly refer to ourselves as "kikes" or "Christ killers".

And it is equally inappropriate to use terms like "bimbo" to describe women.

Here is the definion of Bimbo:

1. a foolish, stupid, or inept person.
2. a man or fellow, often a disreputable or contemptible one.
3. Disparaging and Offensive. an attractive but stupid young woman, esp. one with loose morals.



I believe the word is accurate and doesn't degrade women as much as it was used to describe these two individuals and thier ignorance, blantant stupidity, and adulterous lifestyle.

You weren't wrong, but I guess when they first said it - a good response might have beeen: " Ya know, that word is insulting to a lot of people, myself included. Could we just avoid it?? Thanx -" And then swiftly change the topic.
I don't use the F word for the most part. Once in a while if my partner does something very traditionally feminine, I may tell him " Oh, so YOUR the woman in this relationship!" Which is probably homophobic & insulting to women - "Oh well! "

It is not right to use that word. While the gay and lesbian community has in some contexts re-appropriated 'queer,' this is one word that I wish would fall out of usage. It is in the same category as the worse epithets for various ethnicities and hurts as much.

Copman had the right response.

I won't use the word amongst my friends. Denigrating someone once as a teenager only made me look like a fool. Today, I'd rather tease family and friends by calling attention to their foibles and idiosyncrasies. For example, I sometimes refer to a couple as Miss Mamie and Miss Emily, because they remind me of the Baldwin sisters from The Waltons. Also refer to another as a couple of dowagers. They're not as much into the recipe as the Baldwin sisters!

It's generally a term that should be avoided, but there's definately times that it is more damaging than others.

I have this friend who is a scott. We are at a gay bar and he informs the group that he is going out for a fag, to which I responded, "what? you couldn't find one you liked inside?". It was obviously completely in jest, I clearly meant it applying to everyone and not just a specific sort of gay person and, frankly, I can't really see who would have been harmed. Generally I dont use the term, but this time was more of just a situational thing.

I am a little more uncomfortable with using the term around straight people even ones who I consider my friends. This stems from a time when I was joking around with a straight friend who is significantly bigger than I am. He was telling some train-wreck of a story and I started making fun of him for it. He puts me in a headlock at which point I managed to twist out and get him into an arm-bar pinned against a building. I got a little carried away and said something to the order of: "shit son, that's embarrassing. You just got your ass kicked by a fag". I meant it as smack-talk, but I will never forget how disappointed in me he looked. While at the time I didn't see it as a big deal, he saw it as a self-depreciating comment which exposed an attitude detrimental to gay people in general. He may just have been right.

An example of usage which really bothers me, though, occurred on the Bill Maher show a while back. Christopher Hitchens and Dan Savage were discussing the religious right and Hitchens said something to the effect that, "those who preach loudest against faggotry will be the first to be found in some airport bathroom on their filthy knees". Although hitchens use of the word wasn't specifically targeted against gay people, it was still inappropriate. I think what really bothered me, though, was the ambiguity of the last part. While I think anonymous sex in public places would be considered "filthy" by most, there is little to distinguish whether he meant that, or weather he meant that the act of "faggotry" itself was filthy.

African Americans however do not use the -er ending of the 'n' word, but rather use ni**a. I don't like the use of either word, although I admit I use it; rarely though. I will use it around other black people, but never in the presence of white people or other racial groups. I never refer it when greeting someone like "hey wassup my ni**a", but I will say things like "look at those ni**as over there". If you saw the discussion on the View last week about it, its easier to understand. African Americans have taken a word that brings about so much pain and have done with it what we want to do with it. We have taken it away from those who used it against us and now use it the way we want to.

Referring fag or faggot...yes I use it when referencing something that is stereotypically gay. For instance, this past weekend I was looking over new paint patterns for a room in my house I'm redecorating while sipping on a glass of Riesling, and watching The First Wives Club. My boyfriend walked in and looked at me and I said "I know I know...I'm quite the fag aren't I?" So if I see a really flamboyant gay person who is just going overboard with the swishing hips and "gayness" I may say something like "what a fag".

I say that its acceptable for gays to use it, but just kinda like Sherri Shepherd said to Barbara Walters referring the 'n' word....regarding fag or faggot, I don't want to hear it come from your mouth if you aren't gay.

Dan,


That's a great example of how I've acted in the past around straight friends initially in an attempt to overcompensate for being gay. I sometimes find myself still doing this without realizing it like you did until after the fact. Up until recently, I've even remained mute when instances of gay bashing took place by un assuming straight work colleagues because they didn't know I was gay at Christmas functions and business trips.

I guess now that I am in my lower 30's I have less tolerance and possibly feel stances are needed in correcting behavior. I guess that includes correcting gays who seem to believe they have something to prove like my friend did Friday night when he totally regressed into collectively insulting all gays as inferior to the mainstream population in an attempt to say he is anomaly instead of the norm. The reality is he isn't all the athletic as he played high school tennis and is halfway knowledgeable on college athletics ( mostly Ole Miss) and while he is masculine you wouldn't see him serving in the military anytime soon, camping in a tent in the wilderness, or someone who takes fitness serious beyond a workout or two a week. That's what I found amusing.


Some of me wonders since he is very intelligent if he surrendered his values to an audience he didn't believe wants to compromise their ignorant self serving ways, so it was best to downgrade to their level.


Anyway, this experience while not life altering, it will undoubtedly serve as a measuring stick of what is acceptable and no longer acceptable not just out of straight people, but gay people who feel the need to tear the rest of our community down in an attempt to over compensate. It's definitely made me more aware of my own personal behavior I've exhibited in the past too that needs improvement.

I hardly ever hear gay people use fag amongst each when describing flamboyant behavior, but rather the word queen. I have however heard some people use the word fag or queer as a word of empowerment as in 'That's Mr. Fag to You" What ever words we use or don't use one has to wonder if they are not all equally bad. If someone uses a word in a derrogatory fashion or meant to harm, it doesn't really matter what the word is does it?

In my experience I've found that your more feminine acting gay guys use the word queen when describing flamboyant behavior, whereas your more masculine acting gay guys use the word fag.

If it is used to refer only to oneself, and in well selected audiences, it can be used for emphasis on a point.

It is never allright to use such a disparaging work to anyone other than yourself. After all, my understanding of the etymology of the phrase refers to burning homosexuals as sinners in the middle ages. Why would anyone want to reference that in polite conversation?

It doesn't offend me personally but I wouldn't use the word because it might offend other people.

However, I was at a videobar in PTown last week and every hour or so they show hilarious videos of a drag queen doing a comedy skit with wicked humor. She frequently used the word "fag". It didn't appear to me that any of the couple hundred or so gay people there even gave the use of the word a second thought.

[font=Comic Sans Ms][b][i]UNLESS YOU ARE NOT A SCREAMING QUEEN, WHY WOULD THE WORD OFFEND YOU FROM A STRAIGHT PERSON?
I AM AROUND STRAIGHT PEOPLE 95% OF THE TIME THAT I KNOW AND I NEVER REMEMBER HEARING ANY OF THEM DESCRIBING SOMEONE AS A FAG OR QUEER........MAYBE TO DESCRIBE A TRANSVESTITE ENTERTAINER WHO MAKES HIS LIVING FROM BEING OVER THE TOP.
WHENEVER I CATCH MY ONE GOOD FRIEND WHO HAS DECIDED IT IS COOL TO SAY "SHE" OR "HER" ABOUT ALMOST ANY GUY HE KNOWS, I FIND IT DEPRESSING AND UNNECESSARY, BECAUSE HE DOES HANG OUT WITH A LOT OF QUEENS, AND HAS A DEEP VOICE AND LOOKS MASCULINE. SO I TELL HIM, "LISTEN MR. 5% OF MY FRIENDS" YOU LOSE YOUR ENTIRE SEX APPEAL WHEN YOU WALK THE LINE BETWEEN BEING A MACHO ACTOR AND A DIZZY QUEEN...OR QUEER".........AND HE NEEDS TO WORK...
WHAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF IS THAT IT IS OKAY FOR ANY GAY TO CALL LATINOS BY A DOZEN NICKNAMES WHICH NORMALLY DON'T SUIT THEM UNLESS VERY GAY OR SWISHY AND BECAUSE THEY ARE A BIT LESS TOUCHY, SEEM TO ACCEPT THE FACT BETTER THAN GAYS, BLACKS OR OTHER MINORITIES.
I FIND LATINOS A LOT MORE WISELY BROUGHT UP IN SPITE OF THEIR STEREOTYPING, THAN EVEN JEWS OR OTHER RACES WHICH ARE MATRIARCHAL LIKE THE ITALIANS WHO NEVER LEAVE HOME EVEN AFTER THEY ARE MARRIED.
IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE GAY AND HAVE SOME OF YOUR MANHOOD LEFT, THEN HAVE THE BALLS TO SAY SOMETHING TO THE JERK LIKE "DO YOU REALIZE I KNOW YOU HAVE SOME FAGS IN YOUR FAMILY?" YOU MAY NOT KNOW THEIR NAMES, BUT YOU DO HAVE THE FACTS....BALLS ARE THERE FOR WHAT IS LEFT OF YOUR MANHOOD.......THE REST IS UP TO YOUR BRAINS AND NOT BEING OVERLY SENSITIVE.

Oh my god I absolutely HATE when gay guys refer to other guys as "she" or "her". Another one I can't stand is when a guy refers to his ass as boy pussy. Want a quick way for me to go limp? Say boy pussy when I'm back there and it will be over. You don't have a pussy. You have an ass!!! Can't stand it.

Anywho....back on topic...ya lost me on the last part about latinos and italians and stuff. I am thinking you were saying that latino gay men are the most open minded and/or non judgmental you have come across in your experience. Then when you talk about Italians and Jews and Blacks are you referring to gay Italians, Jews, or Blacks or just them in general?

Honestly, I've never (thankfully) heard anyone ever use the term "boy pussy", but what a HUGE turnoff.

Man-gina? Anyone?