The National Enquirer reported that Sarah Palin had an affair with her husband’s business partner. Naturally it's being denied and the Palin supporters are up in arms...but that was the same reaction John Edwards and his supporters had to their story of the Edwards affair, until he finally admitted it was true. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

golfer25 posted a list of issues on which Obama's stand is superior to McCain. The two that stood out to me were Don't Ask/Don't Tell and the Defense of Marriage Act. After DADT, gay expulsions from the military soared to unprecedented levels. Surely I needn't explain what the contemptible DOMA did. And who was responsible for DADT and DOMA? Oh, that's right, Bill "Friend to Gays" Clinton. That duplicitous assh*le shamelessly gladhanded gay votes and pretended to be our friend. With friends like that ...

Doesn't it strike any of Obama's supporters as a wee bit troubling that he's supposedly so pro-gay, yet doesn't support gay marriage? That Obama is opposed to gay marriage (spare me this "evolving" BS), the most important gay issue, both symbolically as well as in real-life practical impact, tells me that his support of gays is a mile wide and an inch deep. Sure, he'll gladhand us for our votes, and if we're *really* lucky, he might even allow himself to be photographed with a few of his multitude of gay friends (as long as they're not Muslim, of course). And I'm not denying that he's somewhat better on gay issues than McCain/Palin. But Bill Clinton didn't fool me for a second. Barack "Mile Wide/Inch Deep" Obama won't either.

But as MDG said, what does it matter? Nobody's mind is really changed or even influenced all that much by all the back and forth on this board. No matter what I say, the vast majority of this board will persist in the belief that if we all just vote for Obama and he goes to the White House, the clouds will part, the angels will burst into song, and gays across the land will be lifted into the empyrean. Uh huh.

MDG, I have no idea why I started posting again in P&R when I had avoided it like Ebola for years. Maybe I was hoping to make some sort of connection with at least one person of differing views. Hopefully that happens here. What did McCain and Palin say that made me feel like they "get" me? First of all, I'm busted. Truth be told, John McCain has never said or done a thing that makes me feel that way. But he picked a VP candidate based on his gut, which tells me his instincts are awfully damn good. What did she actually say that made me feel that she gets me?
"My sister Heather and her husband have just built a service station that's now opened for business - like millions of others who run small businesses. How are they going to be any better off if taxes go up?"
My uncle built a service station ~3 years ago. It was a big risk for him, and thankfully it's pretty successful now. And yes, if anyone increased taxes on him in the early going, it would have been rough. Of course, Obama would never flat-out say that he disdains people whose hopes and dreams revolve around a little service station -- except that, actually, he did kinda say that, didn't he?

"I was just your average hockey mom, and signed up for the PTA because I wanted to make my kids' public education better. When I ran for city council, I didn't need focus groups and voter profiles because I knew those voters, and knew their families, too."
What's the real reason Barack "I have THIS many gay friends" Obama is opposed to gay marriage? I'm guessing it's that focus groups tell him that Americans aren't quite ready for it. When focus groups tell him voters are OK with it, Obama's position will evolve. When Sarah Palin said she didn't need focus groups, it rang with honesty and authenticity.

"we don't quite know what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on working people when they are listening, and then talks about how bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those people aren't listening."
Sarah Palin understands that rural Americans have to have a gun in their house, otherwise, bands of criminals would criss-cross the country banging down the doors of every isolated home (in rural areas, law enforcement can be 50 to 100 miles away, or more). Criminals are far more hesitant to re-create "In Cold Blood" knowing that there's a loaded shotgun on the other side of that door. By the way, I grew up in Kansas, which is why I'm a long-time member of the NRA, even though I've never owned a gun. I am also a practicing Catholic, and it was a 13-year journey, with lots of thought and soul-searching, back to the Catholic Church. Sarah Palin gets all that. Barack Obama belittles me for it. He gladhands me when he wants my vote, then turns around and defecates on me to the Manhattan/Malibu/Marin County cocktail party set. A mile wide and an inch deep.

Well,Rudy either way I'm sure Sarah would be happy to reform you into a straight man.Good luck. As far as any candidate being pro gay marriage,well,until a vast majority of Americans feel that way,it ain't gonna happen. The possibility of a former beauty queen who is now a mother of five and hunts becoming the next VP is just too thrilling.

Again, I don't understand why you are stuck in 1993, obsessing about Bill Clinton. DADT happened 15 years ago and public opinion on that policy and gay issues in general have shifted massively since then.


Just admit that you don't care about gay issues when you decide whom to vote for. You assume that every politician will f**k us over, just as they have in the past. IMO that opinion indicates misjudgment on a massive scale given what's happened since Vermont in 2000. Massachusetts and California have gay marriage, New York will recognize marriages from out of state, VT/CT/NJ/NH have civil unions. But if guns, abortion, and taxes matter more to you, then by all means vote for the theocrat ticket.

As one example--New York's (Democratic) governor is ready and willing to sign gay marriage into law. The Republican state senate refuses to let a marriage bill to the floor. ONE additional Democrat in the senate would flip control and have the direct result of instituting gay marriage in New York. (Of course, a Republican governor would almost surely NOT sign the bill.) Obviously this is an extreme example, but MA/CA/NY/VT are just the first in a wave of states that will grant union rights in the next 15-20 years. Elections matter.

I am glad that Sarah Palin touches you and appeals to you BoSoxRudy.

However, there are so many strong concerns that I have about her:
1) She is vehemently anti-gay in her beliefs. She believes in prayer conversion. She believes that we are making a choice to be gay which is anti-thetical to human existence. With her not only is there no chance for gay marriage, but there is absolutely no chance to be protected with civil rights per chance we would be fired by a homophobic boss or have no legal standing over potentially hateful families to inherit a home or even visit a sick loved one in the hospital. These are important to me as basic human decency and rights. Her opinion has no point of evolution in this area and accepting her opinion would mean less acceptance of your own status as a human being and citizen of the United States.
2)On the basis of facts in her speech, some she lied or spoke strong mistruths about- Bridge to Nowhere: "I said thanks, but no thanks"- she accepted the same amount of earmark money, but rerouted it to other areas in Alaska; regarding being a champion and voice for families with disabilities- she cut funding by a significant amount in Alaska (unsure of amount) for children with disabilities (maybe before she had her own child with Down's Syndrome- will give her more leeway here; she claimed that Obama has never written a significant law or legislation despite writing two memoirs- well, he spent several years in the Illinois State Senate and U.S. Senate and co-authored several of them, some involving ethics reform and weapons control (now this was an outright mistruth and I cannot give her credit for that)-- there were other mistruths in her speech as well....
3) Her ability to handle and balance a budget is no more proven than the other candidates- she runs a state which self-supports with an abundance of oil and gas income. She doesn't have to worry about working with a bad economic status and the state is self-supportive. Does she understand the difficult economics of a nation with multiple variables to the economic status?
4) She ridicules Obama's introductory experience in politics as a community organizer when hers was as a member of the PTA. That to me was disingenuous on her part. She could not define fairly what a community organizer was and yet chose to belittle it when the work of a community organizer is relatively significant. The community he worked in was actually larger than her small town as mayor and while she was mayor he was working as a legislator in his State Senate. In her experience as mayor she has written no laws which she chastised him incorrectly about. So she has only two years of working with bills and laws presented TO her, not by her. The three gentleman all have years of experience with these matters.


I respect your opinion to support her and feel that she touches you- although especially with issue #1, are you willing to give up that option to have someone in the White House who at least is willing to evolve on an issue instead of being a diehard making you an automatic second-class citizen? I am erring on the side of hope and evolution.

If Palin is a reflection of the type of federal judge appointments and specifically the Supreme Court, we're all f**ked for the next several decades if McCain wins this election. Period. End of story.

I'm seeing some amnesia over just how DADT went down. Give Clinton credit for bringing it to the forefront with the good intentions of getting completely rid of the idiotic rules against gays, but you have to remember who had the votes in congress and the political climate to understand the final result (DADT was a compromise). Same with DOMA (was an election year wedge issue). And yes, I'm pissed at Clinton for both (not so much DADT because a lot of us thought it was a good first step at the time). I was a very reluctant Hillary supporter until I finally found a candidate in Obama I trusted a whole lot more.

Frankly, I don't give two shits about gay "marriage", but my whole life would be changed for the better with civil unions and the benefits it could bring. I would like to see civil unions be a compromise. The GOP does not want that to happen.

Obama is "somewhat" better on gay issues than McCain/Palin? If "somewhat" means miles ahead, then yes. The difference between Obama and Bill Clinton *could* be that he will have a Congress in place to cooperate and support his ideas when it comes to gay issues. It's an incredible opportunity for gays and gay issues. It's also a window that may not come around again for a very long time.

And while I'm already at it, I don't understand the all or nothing attitude from gays when it comes to "marriage" vs. civil unions as well as the transgender/transexual aspects in ENDA. You got to start somewhere, but if you want the whole enchilada or nothing....you'll probably get nothing. We should be open to compromise as well.

God Bless Jon Stewart

Rips Fox and RNC over Gender/Etc

Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Palin has had a tremendous effect on the race thus far. McCain has wiped out Obama's convention bounce with a bigger bounce of his own. Today's Gallup poll shows McCain taking the lead 48% - 45%. Rasmussen is dead even.

The next two months are going to be quite a wild ride.

I think the polls are reflecting the fact that a lot of people who were not comfortable saying they would vote for Obama but were not particular proud of the reasons they were not comfortable with him - in many cases these motivations may have been subliminal - have siezed on Palin as a reason to come out as anti-Obama.

The reasons I'm seeing - both here and elsewhere in the blogosphere - for switching to, or admitting to a newfound affection for McCain, seem illogical - as though they are sttugging for justifications.

I doubt McCain will ever be pro-small business for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that he has not expressed a great interest in pursuing the kind of fair market small creative business need to compete with established but stale large corporations.

As for his, or Palin's, perceived honesty that is a gut reaction that one can hardly argue with. My gut tells me Obama is more honest. And I'll admit that it is a feeling of familiarity with his history and personality.

I do not get that feeling from McCain though I have known and trusted people with similar cultural backgrounds to his. And I certainly do not get that gut reaction of trustworthiness with Sarah Palin.

I do not believe she is a bad person, nor any more deceptive than many politicians but that we can do better.

If it means anything, I DO think Sarah is a bad person. Anyone who is that hypocritical CANNOT be trusted. I'll bet her shadow doesn't even trust her. How anyone else can is beyond me. She read from a Tele-prompter, and all of the sudden, she's a hero. Bullshit. She is a liar and a con artist, and her cover was blown in less than a week after her appointment. She is a fraud, pure and simple. I pity the fool who falls for her tricks. I pray this nation is above that, especially after what the last 8 years have taught us, and have cost us.

Like what, sportinlife? I know why I felt uncomfortable with Obama, but I'm not the least bit ashamed of the reasons: his spinelessness (yet he deludedly believes himself to be a leader); his cozying up to corruption (yet he deludedly believes himself to be a reformer); his love of high taxes, big government, and the nanny state; and then to put that all together and actually expect me buy his bullshit "Hope & Change" campaign tells me the man is an egotist to the nth degree. Why the hell would I be ashamed of that? I'm rather proud of it, actually. The only thing I can think of that one would be ashamed of ... uh mah gawd, if you say racism, I'm going to puke into my own cupped hands.

The latest USA Today/Gallup poll (conducted 9/5-9/7) has McCain 10 points over Obama, 54 to 44!! Thank you, Ted Nugent and the NRA! Thank you, pro-life groups! Thank you, Christian soldiers! The polls should really be saying "McCain/Palin" because the old man has her to thank for this surge. We had horrible doubts about McCain. Even his mother was urging us to hold our noses and vote for her son! But he stunned the conservative world by picking a VP candidate who is a true Ronald Reagan conservative to her very marrow. That's why we're so ecstatic about Palin. After seeing her magnificent debut on the national stage, I thought, "OMG, we have another Reagan." Then I scolded myself for getting overzealous and gushy. But the next day, the conservative columnists and bloggers were abuzz with the very same thought. Even Michael Reagan, who thought his father was one of a kind, never to be seen again (as we all did), was stunned when he saw his father in Sarah Palin.

You know the NRA slogan, "You can have my gun when you pry it out of my cold dead hand"? Comedians may mock, and liberals may scorn, but tens of millions of Americans feel that way. Tens of millions of Americans believe that abortion is not a woman's choice, but the murder of the unborn. For liberals, it is simply unbearable that the mainstream of America is a lot closer to Sarah Palin than it is to Barack Obama. Some conservatives disagreed with McCain on specific issues (McCain/Feingold, global warming, no drilling) and many just mistrusted him because of reasons they couldn't quite put their finger on (count me in the latter), but his pick of Sarah Palin clinched it. John McCain is indeed one of us, and I can walk into the voting booth for the 1st time EVER and actually vote for a candidate, not just against the other guy.

But like MDG said, nobody's mind is changed because of anything said here. If indeed you believe we're all voting against Obama because we're a bunch of racist Neanderthals, that's just not logical. And therefore, there is no reasoning I can present to convince you otherwise. So I'm really reeeeaaaaally hoping that the shameful reason for our discomfort with Obama is something else because then maybe we can have some sort of productive dialogue.

Did you get kidnapped by the Fox News Network and get rewired with Sean Hannity soundbites?

So let me see....you would rather get shot by homophobic Evangelicals who wish you were never born in the first place but permit you to live as a second class citizen in the land of the free?

I won't be holding my breath for you once Sarah sends out her prayer groups to reform you or you get sent to some reform facility in the sticks....

But in all seriousness...I feel sorry for you BSR; this is one of the most self-loathing posts ever on this board. I hope you find happiness beyond this some day.

Wow, that is one of the most demeaning, belittling things ever said to me on this board. This is indicative of the fundamental disrespect that some liberals have for conservatives, or really, anyone who disagrees with them. This comment is in the same vein as Obama's demeaning, belittling comments about people like me. Yet some still persist in the belief that I'm voting for McCain/Palin because of racism and/or self-loathing.

When I started posting again in P&R, the category I avoided like Ebola for years, I was hoping for something different. Kick's post reminds me that it's same old, same old.

[/i]But like MDG said, nobody's mind is changed because of anything said here. If indeed you believe we're all voting against Obama because we're a bunch of racist Neanderthals, that's just not logical.[/b]


1) Yes it is logical to believe this.

2) Palin is a scary addition to American politics. She is not educated, she's hypocritical, she's an extremist, and she has a wild temper of eliminating anyone who gets in her path. She has no concept of American politic- especially on this type of stage. She's a gimmick pick, at best. Additionally, only in a backwoods state of Alaska could a part time mayor/ "hockey" mom to Governor in just 2 years. Let's be honest, if she were in any other of the 49 states and ran for Governor 2 years ago, she wouldn't even have placed in the top 3 of Republican primaries to have even qualified for the state Governor election race. Only in Alaska can an under qualified mediocre woman rise to power. That's all you need to know about Alaskan politics.


IMO, Log Cabin Republicans or any gay man/ lesbian for that matter who votes for the McCain/Palin ticket are similar to battered women. They just keep coming back for mote Nothing changes, yet they are hopeful their party changes.. THe GOP wants nothing to do with them. Hell, the GOP doesn't even court their vote. They consider gays and lesbians to be leapers of society. I feel sorry for any gay or lesbian who votes Republican. What a sad life they must lead.



For Christ sakes, look at the country after the past 8 years. Also, when is the last time we've had a presidneital candidate like Senator Obama who in front of large crowds in South Dakota, Iowa, and many other rural areas references us as "his gay brothers and sisters". He doesn't just do it occasionally. He does it often. When is the last time in a national convention speech by our nominee did the candidate tell America we not only have a right to be gay, but we are family ( literally- again, by calling us his " brothers and sisters) in front of 80,00 in attendance and 38 million on TV. When is the last time our candidate said " gays and lesbians should have the right to see loved ones in hospitals" as if lecturing the American people it was criminal to prohibit gays and lesbians from having basic human rights.


It also should be noted I am not voting Democrat simply for gay rights. The plight of Gay Civil Rights registers around 4th on my list of issues that are important.



1) Ending the War in Iraq- Focus squarely on Afghanistan and rebuild Military.
2) Economy- Obama's trickle up Economic Plan is Brilliant. It eliminates corporate welfare sparking individual and small business growth.
3) Health Care program that covers every American- this goes without saying.
4) Gay Civil Rights
5) Take Care of our Vets ,Montgomery GI Bill, fix bases ( Walter Reed), and provide fist class services for troops who can't adjust to civilian life after war tours.
6) Civil Liberties
7) Eliminate Torture
8) Overhauling of CIA/FBI/Government Agencies
9) Education in Public Schools- Raise standards of elementary, middle, and high schools to where it equals Japan, Europe, and other countries.
10) Implementing a Civilian Community Work program comparable to Montgomery GI Bill that pays for college for anyone who does 2 years of community service.

The ABove 10 issues are why I know Obama/Biden eventually win. Good, Honesty, and Compassion is on our side. That's why we win in Novemember. I question anyone's intelligence, logic, and common sense if they vote for McCain/Palin in this election- especially if you are gay and lesbian.

It's the lesser of two evils argument.

I have one choice who will work COMPLETELY against gay people, or I have a choice who won't exactly give us 100% what we deserve, but at least it's something.

And DOMA was a dumb idea, but he was pressured by ignorant conservative America to do so.

And as I always say, find a Democrat who does something bad/wrong/dumb, and there's a Rethuglican who has done much worse

Clinton - DOMA

Bush - Actually pushed to have the Constitution re-written to include legal discrimination against homosexuals.




If you make more, you should pay more.

To me, the bottom line for gay Republicans comes down to this, I will never understand how they can stand up for a party, that won't stand up for them. But hey, thats just me. There must be a reason why we seem to keep hearing stories about people like Larry Craig, or remember Jim West? When was the last time that you heard about stories like this happening to a gay Democrat? Anyone? But I also realize as others have pointed out I am not going to change anyones mind and they won't change mine.

There's an excellent op-ed piece in the LA Times by Gloria Steinem. Here are a few excerpts:

"Selecting Sarah Palin, who was touted all summer by Rush Limbaugh, is no way to attract most women, including die-hard Clinton supporters. Palin shares nothing but a chromosome with Clinton. Her down-home, divisive and deceptive speech did nothing to cosmeticize a Republican convention that has more than twice as many male delegates as female, a presidential candidate who is owned and operated by the right wing and a platform that opposes pretty much everything Clinton's candidacy stood for -- and that Barack Obama's still does. To vote in protest for McCain/Palin would be like saying, "Somebody stole my shoes, so I'll amputate my legs."

"Palin has been honest about what she doesn't know. When asked last month about the vice presidency, she said, "I still can't answer that question until someone answers for me: What is it exactly that the VP does every day?" When asked about Iraq, she said, "I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq."

"She opposes just about every issue that women support by a majority or plurality. She believes that creationism should be taught in public schools but disbelieves global warming; she opposes gun control but supports government control of women's wombs; she opposes stem cell research but approves "abstinence-only" programs, which increase unwanted births, sexually transmitted diseases and abortions; she tried to use taxpayers' millions for a state program to shoot wolves from the air but didn't spend enough money to fix a state school system with the lowest high-school graduation rate in the nation; she runs with a candidate who opposes the Fair Pay Act but supports $500 million in subsidies for a natural gas pipeline across Alaska; she supports drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve, though even McCain has opted for the lesser evil of offshore drilling. She is Phyllis Schlafly, only younger."

"I don't doubt her sincerity. As a lifetime member of the NRA, she doesn't just support killing animals from helicopters, she does it herself. She doesn't just talk about increasing the use of fossil fuels but puts a coal-burning power plant in her own small town. She doesn't just echo McCain's pledge to criminalize abortion by overturning Roe vs. Wade, she says that if one of her daughters were impregnated by rape or incest, she must bear the child. She not only opposes reproductive freedom as a human right but implies that it dictates abortion, without saying that it also protects the right to have a child."

You can substitute the name of just about any politician of either party and not be wrong. All politicians lie; the only question is which lies are more important to the electorate.

Wow, the polls are just all over the place right now. The very latest was released a few minutes ago -- a CNN.com/Opinion Research poll that shows it dead even at 48-48. The pollster was just on CNN and said that they're not seeing the dramatic movement towards McCain that some other polls were finding. Rasmussen Reports out today shows McCain up by 1, 48-47.

Well McCain's pick was very shrewd but its working for sure. I gotta give him credit for really making a gamechanging move. The Obama team is on full defense, spending a lot of time talking about Palin instead of keeping it focused on Obama. Conservatives won't give a crap what people say about Palin. They are going to vote for McCain to get her. They were interviewing a group of evangelicals who were not going to vote for McCain until he picked Palin. McCain has now been able to take some of the "change" mantra, and people who feel as though they want to vote for a historical ticket. Its a gamble that right now appears to have paid off for him. Its going to be interesting down the stretch. MSNBC was just going over the electoral college map and its surely very tight. I think it may not be such a bad idea for Obama to be in this position right now. I think his ground game is underestimated. In the end it will be independents who are going to decide this thing. In addition, young voters need to deliver this year the way they were supposed to for Kerry in 2004. I'm still not putting much stock into these polls, particularly right after conventions and before debates, but I expect it to be tight til election night unless there is some incredible gaffe or scandal by one of them.

Lets look at the polls again in a week. My guess is that McCains will drop. Its pretty clear, this is going to be another close election, and I still think its Obamas' to lose. I am hoping for a little more passion and a little more fire from both Barack and from Biden. Biden really can do it, and I understand Barack isn't as inclined, but I think there is a HUGE number of undecideds out there, and this is why the polls go for one candidate one week, and then another next week. I caught some of Chuck Todds' lastest electoral map predictions for today, and Obama is in the lead by about 20 electoral votes. There is still quite a few states listed as tossups. If Barack can pick up a couple its all over for McCain. There is still some reason for cautious optimism, but Barack needs to close the deal with alot of people. I want to see and hear Hillary out there and I want to see and hear Bill Clinton out there. IMO, Obama needs BOTH!!!

BSR- it was the tone of your initial post, which you edited later with a more level-headed approach that came across excessively gloating and purely nasty. I typically try to deflect that, but just your pure tone was so crude and cynical.... but my response was equally crude and I want to apologize because I do not wish to make any enemies here- and maybe we can find some common ground.

I actually am not so excessively liberal as you should think.

The truth is- I don't mind people owning guns or having them for hunting. I just think there should be a limit on how many guns and the types of guns people should be willing to have. Unfortunately, the wrong people tend to own guns and misuse the privilege for violence. I am pro-hunter to a point of controlling the animal population and following hunting seasons.

I am personally pro-life as a Catholic, but like Joe Biden- and because I work in a city where so many unwanted children are born- I don't think my personal belief should override the beliefs of others. I think those that are so stridently pro-life need to create a means to develop high level funsing to subsidize foster care and adoptions, or should adopt more frequently themselves. If completely pro-life legislation becomes the law, my belief is that you then should have to take it to the extreme and no longer permit artificial means of conception- often there are unused embryos that are created and never implanted. Subsequently you would have to define that as a moment of conception leading to death; essentially an evidentiary abortion...so I think you have to be careful.... I think legislation needs to tread carefully in this area, excessive pro-life legislation could lead to some unwanted negative consequences.

With regards to gay rights, this is one area where I am truly liberal. I am gay. I want the same legal rights as every other citizen who pays taxes and follows the law. If I buy a house with my partner- in some states my family could sue for ownership of the home that we both invested in- that isn't equal and isn't fair. If my partner is in the hospital gravely ill, his family could block my visitations in some states because I am not married or have a civil union with my partner- that isn't equal and that is cruel... Additionally, I do not have the option to file as a couple and am not permitted the same marriage tax codes that married couples receive... that isn't right and is unjust. In some areas I can be denied housing because I am gay and have a partner and the law is written that two unmarried, unrelated adult men cannot cohabitate. There are so many other things that in this country I am not afforded the rights to because I am gay. It is sad that some countries we chastisted for discrimination (i.e. apartheid in South Africa) now have moved beyond our own nation and legalized gay marriage. Why does our own nation deny us this right? I have to support a candidate who will not legislate me into having less rights than prisoners.... otherwise, I just have to accept it and I don't feel anybody should have to accept or devalue themselves.

Economy- my level of knowledge is so weak in this area. My ultimate beliefs for taxing would be flat taxes for inviduals and businesses, regardless of income and regardless of size of business. It is the most fair thing i can think of, but I know a lot of more intelligent people regarding economics can blast holes in the simplicity of that theory. With regards to our war and our deficit, increase taxes over a short period of time to pay that off. Our country should never be in deficit, we should be smart enough to balance a budget. I know that what we are currently doing right now is not working- so many people are worse off than 10 years ago.

Anyways- so many issues, but just want to state more detail and complexity to my opinion versus just being labeled a liberal for the sake of just being labeled so.

I didn't.

Just think Palin will "cure" all gays by praying! I hope this works for terrorism, the economy and the energy problem. I hope this election get back to the real issues.

More dirt just keeps coming up on the Baby Grandma

-Her Church members talk in tongues that only god can understand.

- Her pastor openly says Alaska is a refuge for Christians and the end days are coming and only Alaskans will be saved because of their purity.

- The best of all - Her Pastor says " Israel deserves to be struck with a Nuclear Bomb by terrorists if the Jews don't convert to Christianity. The Pastor said this just 3 weeks ago with Palin in attendance. Guess what? Palin only today released a statement saying " she disagreed".

Simply amazing she is one bad John McCain cough from possibly being President. How the hell is this happening?

QUOTE(BoSoxRudy @ Sep 8 2008, 05:09 AM)
... uh mah gawd, if you say racism, I'm going to puke into my own cupped hands.


GROSS! Although,I do get nauseous every time Sarah and her friends cry "sexism"

So now at least we know how she must've met husband Todd

Well, however many feel about Palin, its working for John McCain. Among white women there has been a huge reversal in polling. Obama had a 4-7 point advantage over McCain amongst this segment of voters before the Palin pick. Now, McCain is up by 10-12 points amongst white women. Yeah its an immediate post convention poll but this thing is really getting interesting. She is also bringing huge amounts of money into the campaign, whereas Obama's fundraising has not been meeting expectations. He's got to hope these electoral college numbers hold for him right now, and hope that he can pick off a state or two to get him this win.

Well, McCain and Palin have quickly turned the table away from the economy, Iraq, the housing crisis, and the focus on continuimg failed policies, and have made it into a popularity contest. That's a fight they win - McCain's s a veteran, she's got young kids, she hunts and fishes. That gives them a commonality with many Americans that Obama, with his Ivy-league education and soaring oratory, does not have. Obama needs to quickly turn the focus back to the issues, and get the words "Bush - McCain" into every sentence. And he once again needs Hillary. He needs her to campain alongside him in front of women, and point out the stark contrasts between her social positions and Palin's. The fact is Hillary and Palin have nothing in common except the same reproductive organs, but right now that message is not getting out.

Any poll that shows women moving to McCain in droves is wrong. Trust me. Many polls are now showing that McCain's convention bounce has already stopped. ABC News/Washington Post poll out last night shows Obama up 48-47. Rasmussen out this morning has it even at 46-46 and shows McCain's lead of yesterday had already evaporated. And we're talking about this being the high-water mark of the campaign for McCain. I'd be very worried if I was a Republican; if this is the high-water mark and you are still tied, there's something wrong. State-by-state polls yesterday showed Obama up in Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico and the two tied 48-48 in Florida. Remember this is immediately after the RNC so if McCain's bounce has not pushed him into the lead in those states at this point, the odds of him winning them are slim at best. I understand Democrats always worry but unless McCain got out to a 15-point lead consistently in every poll, there's no need to worry. The fact that several of the polls are already reversing the trend and coming back towards Obama is a great sign.

From a POW that McCain was held with....

Why I Won't Vote For John McCain

Just about fell off my stoop yesterday, when I found out my childhood friend Amy Poynter Brewer hosted Sarah Palin yesterday in Lebanon, Ohio, just outside of my hometown of Cincinnati. Amy and I went to grade school together.

Her father was behind Easy Bake Oven and Sprio-graph at Kenner Toys in those days. Amy is now the Mayor of Lebanon. The appearance was at historic "The Golden Lamb Hotel and Restaurant", which dates back to before the Civil War.

Sarah has yet to impress me. At the convention, to me, she came off as a shriek. The media has been shackled for attempting to probe her on issues. But today, she has no stand on issues, or so it seems.

Most frightening to me, is her 'evangelicalism', which includes what I believe to be the most benighted positions about human origin, creationism, "Missions from God", and all that stuff et al. I don't care if she likes to hunt and advocates for sport weapons. But I do care about her position towards Gay people, which per media, are quite negative, re: "Pray away Gays"....???????????????

Most repugnant, and I will mention it again, I thought she was shameless when she attacked Obama for his community service stint in Chicago, at his career start.

I've been avoiding the national media since last week, since it's ALL ABOUT HER. SOMEBODY HELP ME!

TRL

SFJOHN, I am with you on the polls pretty much. Yesterday I learned that Pennysylvania will most likely go blue, which is HUGE for us. Ohio though still a tossup as is Michigan. Obama has the electoral lead as we speak. If we can get everyone firing on all cylinders we cannot be denied. Obama and Bill Clinton are having dinner together in Harlem. I am SURE Obama will be taking notes!

Hmmmmm, in this article Palin seems to define change as still fleecing the taxpayers, but just not as much.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080909/ap_on_...travel_expenses

I was worried with McSame picked Extremist Barbie for his running mate that it would generate this kind of energy. Seeing the polls following the RNC convention, it also seems pretty clear that McCain has a well of good feelings from all voters that he was able to dip into during the convention (primarily by nothing he's a POW, something I hadn't heard before - snark).

I think that MM is right (and apparently Hell is freezing over) that the nomination of Extremist Barbie has distracted from the fundamentals, but as Obama noted last night during his interview on Countdown, we have to get back to the fundamental issues sooner or later, and the Obama/Biden camp is pushing for sooner. Of course, the McCain campaign has already said it is trying to make the race not about the issues, but about personality, which is one of the statements Obama has already pounced on. The Dems are also seriously pushing the message that McSame/Barbie = Chimpy/Darth Vader, which is, as MM noted, their most effective argument. My favorite Obama line last night was when he said "Look, Republicans can't govern, but they run a hell of a campaign." That's what I want to hear more.

I also wonder, what else does McSame have? We see the economy sliding further into recession, high jobless rates, the bailout of Fannie/Freddie, a near 10% drop in the stock market this year (with luck, we might get back to where we were in January by the end of this year) and I just cannot see any of that helping the GOP. The drip, drip, drip of corruption, fiscal malfeasance and general "mistatements" from Extremist Barbie continue, which is going to, I believe, cut into any support she may get from women; if the Obama/Biden campaign begins to highlight her extreme views on abortion, they have an effective tool for undermining the exotic quotient of her gender. I also wonder how Extremist Barbie will fare in the wider political world. So far she' s managed to memorize exactly one speech (hence the reason her lie about the "Bridge to Nowhere" has been repeated over and over) - can they prep her for the debate in time?

I forget who it was that said Democrats needed to stop worrying so much. Perhaps I should take their advice. I just can't fathom another Republican administration. If it happens I can only hope, like Bill Maher said last week that McCain MIGHT really go back to being the maverick he USED to be, say f*ck you to the Republicans, and really be more of an independent minded kind of person. But, I'm not counting on it. Gotta stay positive I know...and lord knows I should know that MSM has so much spin its dizzying. Thanks SFJohn for putting my focus back on the positive.

Obama has to make sure that all those new voters he registered, especially the young ones, show up on voting day. History is not on his side when it comes to the young actually voting so he will need to make an extra effort because you know the GOP will be dragging their base out of the nursing homes and cemetaries to vote in November.

On the nursing homes and cemetaries I agree with that!!!!
Otherwise yes, the young uns need to SHOW UP! Obama has a HUGE lead in every poll I see with young kids.

I'm curious to know which books did she try to ban from the library?

Oh, really? I'd love to know who said that.

For Obama to win the state he's going to have to win Philadelphia by a huge margin to offset what happens in the rest of the state.

Let's do some math. Let's look at the last 2 elections (numbers are from various websites and 2008 are unofficial totals):

2000 - Gore won Phila. by 342,600 and PA by 204.840 -- meaning he lost the rest of the state by 137,760.
2004 - Kerry won Phila. by 412,106 and PA by 144,248 -- meaning he lost the rest of the state by 267,858.

Now let's look at the 2008 Democratic primary: Obama won Phila. by 130.461 but lost the state to Hillary Clinton by 214,066 -- meaning he lost the rest of the state by 344,527. That's larger than the margins won by Bush outside Phila., and Bush had a bunch of Republican votes padding his totals.

I posted the link to this article in another thread. You might want to read it if you haven't already. (It mentions the 66th Ward -- that's actually the ward where I live. In the primary the unofficial total was Clinton 6,964, Obama 2,171.) THESE are the people Obama has to win over, and so far he's failed.

Anyone who says, almost 2 months before the election, that Obama is "likely" to win Pennsylvania either is an idiot or is drinking the Kool-Aid.

Actually, every poll is showing exactly that, including the NBC/Wall St Journal poll released this afternoon. So rather than trust you I'm going to trust the more objective measurements of voter behavior.



I'd agree with that. I tend to trust the Rasmussen polls the most, and they just completed a new Pa. poll yesterday that shows Pennsylvania tightening, much like the rest of the country. From the Rasmussen site:

>>>The Presidential race in Pennsylvania has tightened since the conclusion of the party conventions last week. The latest Fox News/Rasmussen Reports telephone survey in the state finds Barack Obama leading John McCain 47% to 45% in the Keystone state (demographic crosstabs available for Premium Members).

Prior to the latest poll, Obama held five percentage-point leads in August and July.<<<

Hey! Is anybody here reading this thread really and truly a-feared that this election may go to Palin (McCain)? Seriously, I'm getting heart palpitations about it.

Never, in my public views, have I disparaged McCain, though I am so far left (was for Hillary and now for Obama by default), I'm practically a Communist. I have said this before.

Still, the "Palin" factor fills me with utter terror, absolute horror, and even visible disgust. Yes, to me, Sarah Palin is a Domestic Terrorist. So, when do the gloves come off within the Democratic Ticket? THAT WOMAN need a professional political knockdown, knockout before the first bell. Can we hurry up with that? Or is it just to damn late, with what??? 7 1/2 weeks until the election?

Pardon my passion about this, my fellow OutSporters, but my faith in America is in serious retreat. And all the worse since, I'm low on my meds.

TRL

TRL, I feel the same way and I'm not even low on meds.

I'm horrified that we'll look back on the Supreme Court deciding Presidential elections as "the good old days". If our country is [fill in the blank] enough to elect W to a second term, you know it's more than possible this ticket can win. I'm too old for this....it's been a long 8 years. The GOP is in a frenzy over the extreme right Palin and will be giddy with anticipation that McCain will be out of the way in 4 years (or less).

Hopefully the young vote will bail us out of this mess, because the face of America we saw at the GOP convention has been in control too long. We're letting religion extremists organizations and countries turn us into one.

Someone who used to post on this board but is, well, not around anymore, asked me to post this for him. So here it is.



Don't y'all miss our little Miss ray of sunshine? E-A-G...oh wait, wrong thread.

I saw the most interesting shot on tv tonight as they were previewing the news. They had a quick shot of McC standing on the side of Palin at some rally, but it really looked like SHE was the one running for President and he was her running mate. Interesting how things have changed in one week.

A few pages back, someone posted the candidates for the other parties. Thank you for posting this. It was quite interesting going to their websites and reading/listening to their platforms. And it was interesting doing a google search on some of the candidates. Bob Barr, the former Republican Senator from Georgia and now Libertarian candidate is very interesting. I would love to see him in a debate with Obama and McCain. I think that they should include some of them in the debates just to see what they have to say. All this talk about change. People say they want change, but do they really? I feel that most people are afraid of change.

Ok this is totally off topic and quite stupid...however....for the life of me, I just can't help think of Van Halen's video for "Hot For Teacher" whenever I see Palin. You know, with her hair up, she's all prim & proper, but then the music gets rockin' and she gets on top of the tables, let's her hair down & rips off her clothes down to a bikini wearing a sash that says "VP" and all these old white guys are whooping and hollering at her. Next time you see this video, you'll think of this. Scary, no?


Btw, Thanks, BoSoxRudy for answering my question. To be honest, I still don't understand how Obama disrepected you or religion, but thanks for being honest. I wish religion had no part in this or any election, but unfortunately, it's a fact of life and has to be a part of any election. I was raised Buddhist and am now agnostic but any talk of religion and only including Christianity offends me. It's all the talk about Palin's religious background that bugs me so.

Just so you know, the idiot kool aid drinker to whom you are referring to here is Chuck Todd of MSNBC who said his prediction Monday afternoon on MSNBC, and laid out the electoral map totals, that currently showed Obama with a lead.

Terp, I'm hoping you and all Democrats can focus on the positive. The polls aren't going to swing completely in the other direction over night, but they're beginning to. Good news: Rasmussen daily poll out moments ago has been moving towards Obama for 3 days in a row (and Rasmussen is known as one of the most conservative pollsters out there). Rasmussen had McCain ahead 48-47 on Monday, then tied at 48-48 yesterday, but today Obama has moved in front 48-47. Slight movement yes, but McCain's bounce is beginning to fade. NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll out late yesterday afternoon showed the exact same number (48-47 in Obama's favor), and ABC/Washington Post out Monday had it 48-47 Obama as well. It's most likely that's where we currently stand, with 3 fresh polls showing the exact same count. That's good news. McCain's bounce is subsiding.

I would be dubious of any list I see floating our the internet or in chain emails.

I think we can get so focused on national polls that we don't recognize that all presidential elections are decided state by state. One of my favorite websites is FiveThirtyEight.com. It breaks down the polls state by state and gives a projection of the electoral votes as they stand today. Pretty cool if you are into numbers crunching.