The difference to me is that there is a difference between disagreement of ideas and having back and forth (i.e. in debates) versus simply being an over-the-top antagonistic ass****. I don't go out of my way to ignore people or their ideals. But if you have to be a prick about things and act out to get someone to listen to you, then you ain't worth my time- too much f**king drama in the real world to deal with this BS in a place where we should be figuring out our common ground and commonalities.

And that is perfectly acceptable. Now I have made posts here and there that take a dig personally at the poster, but I can understand why you would feel that way about BSR, who too often tends to make it personal. If you feel you need to ignore him, then I say more power to you baby. You know you have my 100% support. I was just speaking for myself. I'm sure you are not alone in your desire to ignore him, and the option is there for those who do.

I don't know if it's the same on other boards, but on SC's we call that feature iggy." E.g., "I just iggied him."

The beauty of technology is that we can be exposed to a multitude of ideas and edit them as we see fit. In is in the light of that thought that I agree with you rather than summarily "ignore" you with a mindless filter.
And that applies to those on both sides of every issue.

I find that I am coming to appreciate more the wisdom of that tenth grade teacher who advised me that exposure to those you disagree with is intellectually stimulating, and she never avoided an arguement. Ironically she would divorce (ignore?) a husband who openly showed excessive sympathy for Nazi Germany.
But she also found that one unruly student had the ability to disrupt the learning process for an entire class. She managed to neutralize him in her class by confronting him with words. Though it disrupted her normal curriculum it became an object lesson in life for all of us. That same student became so annoyed with someone else in another class (gym) that he threatened to bring a gun to school to deal with the disagreement. Patience is the progressives' path.

I dont think making this a racial issue will do any one any good. The fact of the matter is that gays in California were over confident and failed to protect their rights. This should be a wake up call to ALL GAY PEOPLE if we take our rights for granted they will be taken away. In todays NY Times there is a fascinating interview with the mormon who led the Pro 8 campaign. Read it and learn. If we attack churches this will only back fire big time. We need to reach out and educate.

Jaragonus, you hit the nail on the head. People, regardless of their color, voted against this measure. Education is the key, not boycotts or hate. As for BoSox, I hope you can appreciate my kidding. I have been boasting for the past few weeks, and for good reason. You celebrate the defeats because they are many, you celebrate the victories because they are few. I'm doing the latter. I think Sportinlife said it best, regarding opposite opinions...they really do help you think and grow. I seriously do not want this board to become a "liberal echo chamber". What would I learn from that? Lastly, if folks really are interested in taking on the churches, ask them one simple question...what would Jesus do? Any true Christian would be able to answer without hesitation...you love your neighbor as you love yourelf. Next to loving God with all your heart, mind and soul, this is the second most important tenant of the Christian faith. If they don't believe you, tell them to crack open that Bible to the Book of John in the Gospel. It is quite clear, and no interpretation is necessary.

I think that there are two key issues related to addressing those who disagree w/ us. Here are some questions to ask them:

1. Do you seriously think that glbt humans can live their lives celibate for the rest of their lives? How many heteros could live up to this standard?

2. Do you think it's right that you deny someone the right to love & marry someone? What if that someone happens to be of the same sex?

I think that both of those issues would speak to MANY people including religiously conservative people.

Perhaps for those who are FISCALLY conservative we should ask:

3. Do you think that it is fair that glbt Americans pay their equal share of taxes EVERY YEAR & yet cannot leave their hard earned $$$ to their loved ones? Do you think it is fair that as taxing paying citizens, glbt American couples are not EQUALLY given the same protections as hetero ones?

mdterp, comparing me to Michael Steele <sniff> I'm so vahrklempt!! Seriously, MS has been making the media rounds lately in his bid for the RNC chair, and I absolutely LOVE the guy!!! OMG, I totally agree with everything he says and love the way that he makes the GOP case without resorting to blind partisanship. The cynic would argue that the RNC will make MS the chairman because the GOP needs to present a "face of diversity." OK, a step back here, the worst thing an employer can do to a black applicant is deny him the job just because he's black. The 2nd worst thing an employer can do to a black applicant is give him the job just because he's black. There are two aspects of the RNC chairmanship: spokesperson for the party and behind-the-scenes schmoozing/dealmaking/organizing. Obviously Steele is outstanding at the former, and I hope he's good enough at the latter to earn the position. But seriously, mdterp, that's just about the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me on this board.

Also, thank you for the comment that you would boycott a black-owned or -operated business that you knew to be a big supporter of Prop 8. That would be the fair thing to do, to personally boycott on a case-by-case basis. A blanket boycott of all black (or Asian, or whatever other demographic voted overwhelmingly in favor) businesses is horribly unfair to those business owners who are on our side. Likewise, it horrifies me that Aravosis is organizing this boycott of the state of Utah. So (allow me a hypothetical) there's some poor (non-Mormon) waitress in Utah whose tips are way down to begin with because of the sh*t economy, she's not particularly close to anyone who's gay but honestly has no problem with gays, has a "whatever floats your boat" attitude, and Aravosis & Co. want to drive this poor woman into the ground. Yeah, that'll help bring people around to our way of thinking. Aravosis & Co.'s decision to single out Utah while blithely disregarding black and Asian CA businesses reveals both political cowardice and rank hypocrisy.

What some board members say about conservatives (Republicans, Christians, etc.) and the way they say it are beyond appalling, and yes, it's hard not to take it personally. I could go back through this P&R category and list the myriad Miss Manners things said about conservatives/Republicans (the one that springs to mind is "your average Republican is a racist, sexist, homophobic assh*le!!" ... yeah, you just know that guy went to the finest Swiss finishing schools), but haven't the energy. I will try to stick to the issues more and avoid making things personal. But gentlemen, please remember that this, like everything else in life, is a two-way street. The Golden Rule doesn't just apply to those who agree with you.

PS: about the schadenfreude thing, I say this in all sincerity, LIVE IT UP!! Believe me, if the roles were reversed and 1) the GOP had just won the presidency and vastly increased their majority in both the Senate and the House, 2) the Democratic state and local organizations were in shambles (no volunteers + no money + no enthusiasm + total chaos = shambles), and 3) American voters and entire regions of the country were fleeing the Democratic Party like an ebola breakout, I would be doing aerial cartwheels. If you're literally getting in someone's face with the schadenfreude, that's a bit much. But if you come home from a looooong day at the office, you flip on CNN and hear about yet another GOP trainwreck (the recent backbiting of Sarah Palin at the governors conference is a great example), and that makes you do the happy dance all over your living room, you go ahead and enjoy. I imagine it's one of life's purest pleasures. I hope to experience the same thing, you know, maybe 20 years from now when we Republicans finally get our act together again

Let's try again. This number is based on ONE exit poll with a very small sample. As others have pointed out, if ALL the black voters had voted in proportion to others in the California election, Prop 8 would still have passed because of the support from everyone else who voted. The Mormon Church and its members donated a plurality of money to the Prop 8 campaigned, helped in organizing the vote for it, and strongly urged its members to support it. You can see who the donors to Prop 8 were and, as people have suggested, boycott them if you disagree. This would include black churches and church leaders who also pushed for Prop 8's passage.

Back to the Republican Party: I'm not gloating about Obama's and the Democrats' victory. I'm very glad they won, and after the last 8 years of total incompetence and corruption under Bush, it would have been heartbreaking to see McCain and Palin, of all people, heading to the White House. I'm also extraordinarily proud of and moved by Obama's victory, and prouder too of my country and the 63+ million people who made it happen. McCain thankfully will never run again, but we will see Palin, I bet; she's already pushing to be the 2012 and 2016 frontrunner. Frank Rich captures the Republicans' problems far better than I could, though:



Just think: if white voters in the South had voted *anywhere* near the margins that white voters outside the South did (and I don't mean New England, California, DC, Hawaii, New York State, Illinois, etc. but places like Virginia (where the Confederacy's capital was, don't forget), Colorado, New Mexico, even Ohio), Obama would have won the popular vote by almost double the margin he did.

Thats an excellent analysis by Frank Rich, and basically sums up where the Republican party will continue to falter if they don't decide to tailor their message and ideals to be more inclusive. The country is so far different and they are still stuck in 20th century methodologies. Not even their beloved Newt Gingrich or Karl Rove can get them out of this one. This was a statement election and the people spoke loud and clear. They can continue to be anti this and anti that but the young and diverse of this nation are about to reshape it for what I think will be a permanent paradigm shift. Its time to get rid of the trash and separatism that has long defined the GOP. Their divisiveness and good ole boy club mentality has always disgusted me.

The latest poll as to why Prop H8 narrowly passed: religious background, economic status & less-education, not cuz of race.

The latest issue of The Advocate had a very thought provoking and detailed story about what exactly happened and what were the reasons to blame for the defeat of Prop 8. And there were many. Among them was that opposition was slow to get going. The cover story was also very interesting and timely: " Gay is the new black" The last great civil rights struggle. In addition, there were some great letters to President elect Obama, and Jim's letter was published. Good letter too Jim.

HockeyTom is one of my favorite posters, so I'm not quarreling with him. But I really do not agree with this idiotic "Gay Is the New Black" slogan. It completely erases the distinctive history of prejudice and oppression that black people (and other racial and ethnic minorities) have faced, it erases the presence that black GAY/LESBIAN (bi/trans) people have faced, both from white gay people and other black (straight) people, and it once again elides a basic issue, which is that full and equal civil rights for ALL is the most important thing, not being in competition with each other. It also doesn't help win over black straight people (or anyone else who is offended by the elision of hundreds of years of history.)

Coming together is the best option; the more united we are, across all boundaries (gender, race, ethnicity, class, religion, etc.), as gay people, and working with straight allies, of ALL races and backgrounds, the stronger we will be and the closer we'll be towards full and equal civil rights in this country.

Thank you sir. And I would agree with your assement, that we all need to work and come togther, but it still was kind of an interesting read. I believe the writer Michael Gross if memory serves, also did a huge story about Manhunts effect on our male gay community.