Gus Van Sant's movie about Harvey Milk is opening tomorrow in some theaters and going into wider release in December. I've seen the trailer any number of times and can't wait to see it, but only realized the other day that this Thursday marks the 30th anniversary of his assassination. And it got me to wondering: why isn't there more discussion about it here? I think it's been mentioned some on the "movies" thread, but that's it. Meanwhile, there's a thread with over 3,000 posts about Brokeback Mountain, a movie that I loved, but let's face it -- it's a fictional story about a tragic romance. Shouldn't there be just a little more interest in Harvey Milk and his accomplishments before he was murdered? This just seems wrong to me.

And before one of you young smartasses pipes up with "Harvey Who?" -- Harvey Milk's Wikipedia page.

I know a little about Milk's life and death, but not as much as I ought to. I'm eager to see the movie — partly because of the subject matter, partly because I've heard the performances are outstanding — but will have to either travel to Wichita (assuming it's showing there) or wait for Netflix.

Has anyone read Randy Shilts' biography of Milk, "The Mayor of Castro Street?" Is it worth reading? Is the movie based on the book?

Milk is the one film this holiday season that's a must-see for me. I can't wait. The reviews have been amazing.

I saw it at a screening last week. It is a terrific movie. It's too bad Sean Penn won an Oscar for his overwrought and overrated (IMO) performance in Mystic River as it may keep him from winning for Milk. The supporting cast (Emile Hirsch, Josh Brolin, Victor Garber and James Franco) all give great performances. This movie is going to bet alot of nominations come Oscar time and hopefully Van Sant won't be forgotten for best director.

I've been reading about the movie and about Milk himself lately, and it sounds like a fascinating story. I'm trying not to read too much, though, as I want the movie to be a bit of a surprise. Given the renewed activism in the gay community (thanks to Prop. 8), it will be interesting to see if the movie has an effect. And while I think it was a surprise that Brokeback Mountain became a crossover hit, I think it's almost assumed that Milk will do well (with straight and gay audiences), and Oscar nominations (Sean Penn, for sure) are expected.

Roger Ebert's 4-star review.

Penn should have won for 'Dead Man Walking', not 'Mystic River'.

(Dianne) Feinstein recalls S.F.'s 'day of infamy' Milk photos.

All I have been reading about in the issues of The Advocate or Out magazines are on this movie. Sounds like a MUST see, and getting lots of Oscar buzz as well. I think this will be a must see for me as well as the remake of " The Day The Earth Stood Still" with Keeanu Reeves.

The reviews are rapturous. I'm seeing it tomorrow night with the BF, after Thanksgiving dinner. BF had no idea who Harvey Milk was, so I made him watch the brillaint documentary "The Times of Harvey Milk." It really is a must-see. I believe the movie is based more on this documentary than on the Randy Shilts book, but I could be wrong. I'll be interested in seeing how that hottie James Franco comes off playing Scott Smith, one of Milk's first lovers.

There's also a sports connection: the night of the murders, Monday Night Football was played in San Francisco over the objections of many in the city who were shocked by the events of the day. I was watching that night, and my recollection was that the murder and decision to play the game were discussed during the broadcast, although my memory IS hazy since I was such a young child at the time.

I agree with both prior comments about Sean Penn - he was WAY over the top in "Mystic River" and totally undeserving of his Oscar. However, his "Dead Man Walking" was sublime, and he deserved an Oscar for it. By all accounts, he is equally brillaint in this movie.

Munson Man, Franco actually ends up looking like Scott Smith (very handsome).

I second what you're saying about the documentary Times of Harvey Milk. It's a great, emotional, inspiring movie. I prefer it to Milk, but of course their contents and aims are different. I'm a little bewildered that it's near impossible to find a DVD of Times of Harvey Milk to buy at the moment. I'm re-reading the Shilts book right now. The Van Sant movie is distinct from both, in a way, largely built from oral history and research on the part of the (young) screenwriter. For example, as a dramatic device, Milk is still a striaight-laced businessman when he meets Smith in NY before moving to SF, which wasn't the case (not that it necessarily matters). The Van Sant movie was a longtime project/dream of Cleve Jones, another activist. As such, it writes some people out of the picture and highlights him (Jones) somewhat, but stays true to the central focus: Milk himself.

For me one of the interesting things about the Van Sant movie is how thoroughly it geeks out on the specifics of local politics in San Francisco. If anything, it gets into the nitty gritty of Milk's campaign efforts more than the doc did. In addition to all the great things he did on behalf of gay and lesbian people, Milk was also an important part of the district election process that now (after a brief absence in the wake of his death) is part of SF politics. While district elections have their share of absurdities, I've always liked how local and approachable they make urban politics. People in SF know what the people they vote for are and aren't doing. In so many cities, the actions of political leaders are strictly closed doors, rarely reported on.

None of the political nerdiness is going to make people run out to the theaters though, so I'll just say it's a good movie.

And yeah, ALL of the people who went gaga for Brokeback should see Harvey Milk's story. His fight against Prop 6 is completely applicable to Prop 8 today. In fact, things probably would have turned out different regarding Prop 8 if he was alive.

On a side note, during this past summer when the bf & I were frequenting movie theatres & the previews, plus the release date, was being advertised for the film I told my bf, "Why didn't they release it now during the summer especially since Prop H8 was on the ballot in Nov?" I wonder if it would have affected some peoples' opinions/votes to help defeat it? I don't know if it would have changed their minds but there may have been a more sympathetic reaction to our community & causes. Just a thought...

I agree that Penn should have won the Oscar for "Dead Man Walking," but I thought he was equally outstanding in "Mystic River" and deserved the trophy for that performance as well. Based on what I've heard, he sounds like a contender for "Milk" in a year that seems distressingly low on good movies and performances.

"Milk" was in the top 10 at the box office this weekend despite playing on only 36 screens nationwide. I haven't gotten to see it yet but hope to in the next week or so.

I finally saw Milk. I thought it was quite good, and Sean Penn was teriffic. Although moving at times, I wasn't totally moved by the movie. I was very interested though, in Harvey Milk himself and about that era. I plan on ordering that documentary that people are talking about, The Times of Harvey Milk. Although I was around in those days (the '70's), I wasn't old enough to fully appreciate/understand the gay lib era. It is quite fascinating and I wonder if younger people realize how far we've really come.

Mark

I was around in the 1970's, and I even remember the Stonewall riots in New York in 1969, (I was 14, and very aware that I was gay). I remember seeing the riots on TV and thinking that I wish I was there, or was old enough to be there.

Then the focus shifted to San Francisco, and to the gay men of my generation, it became almost like a pilgrimage to go there on vacation. I didn't make it to SF until 1977, but I can tell you that as a young gay man (22 in 1977), it lived up to all the hype, and to my expectations. Being on Castro Street, in the middle of the day, seeing guys holding hands, was, at that time, totally over the top for me, and really helped me start the healing process after losing my first lover to violence a few years before.

Ironically, in the spring of 1977, a college friend and I were in New York, and we were in the middle of Greenwich Village when the lights went out.

I discovered just how friendly leather daddies could be during a power failure, and made it back to our friends apt 36 hours later.

THOSE WERE THE DAYS!!!

But you have to remember the times. Other than a few big cities, like NY, SF, Montreal and Toronto, there really wasn't a gay community. People like the Stonewall drag queens, and Harvey Milk helped build that community, and bring us to where we are today. It's not perfect, and we still have a long way to go, but compared to what it was like when I first came out, it's a whole new universe.

I did see Milk last Thursday. It was quite good; Sean Penn was excellent, as were a lot of the supporting players. I found the movie very matter-of-fact, though. Maybe because I knew the story so well, I was not particularly moved. Or maybe it was because I've seen The Times of Harvey Milk, which IS incredibly moving - mainly because you see the people who lived and worked with Milk everyday giving their first-person recollections, and becoming very emotional themselves. Somehow seeing actors playing these roles just did not pack the same emotional wallop. Also, I think I disagree with the decision to end the movie with the night of Milk's murder. The subsequent trial, with the issues raised, and the fury the jury decision engendered, are all also part of Harvey Milk and the influence he had. To me, that is much more interesting than some of the arcane details of San Francisco politics and Milk's earlier attempts at elected office. Finally, for those who HAVE seen The Times of Harvey Milk, you may remember Tom Ammiano, an effeminite gay teacher who is interviewed in the documentary. He has a small role in Milk, arguing with a homophobe at a demonstration against gay teachers.

Finally, I've often wondered what position Harvey Milk would have taken had he been alive when the full brunt of the AIDS crisis hit San Francisco in the mid-80's. Would he have argued along with the city establishment about educating people about safe sex, shutting down bathouses, and distributing condoms? Or would he have been among those in the gay community who felt these were alarmist measures designed to deprive gays of rights and drive us back into the closet? I can actually see him on both sides of that argument, and I'm not sure which position he would have espoused, although I'm sure he would have articulated it passionately - and loudly.

Just in case anyone was wondering, and since you brought him up, Tom Ammiano was just elected to the California State Assembly (the lower house) to fill the seat vacated by Mark Leno (gay) who represented most of San Francisco. Mark Leno won his bid to serve as State Senator in the upper house. Since 1978 Ammiano was elected to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors (city/county council) and served as president of the board for a while.

Speculating about what would have happened had Milk not been assassinated is fun, but it is also very possible that he could have been felled by the disease and died like so many did during the dark years of the 80's and early 90's.

I moved to San Francisco in August of 1978 at the age of 26, and remember those crazy pre-AIDS days vividly. I participated in the march on the night of the assassination, but stayed away from the "White Night Riots" because something didn't feel right to me about the mood of people when the verdict was announced. That was uncharacteristically wise of me, and I'm kind of glad I missed it. I'm also sorry to say I never met Harvey Milk, and just remember seeing him around the 'hood and in his camera shop.

Been too busy to see the film yet, but in the last month I read the Shilts book and saw the documentary, both for the first time.

Hollywood-produced biopics, however good this one may be, put people's often messy lives (and causes) in a neater package than reality dictates, which is why I'm not a huge fan of them. (and why I like Todd Haynes' wiggy Bob Dylan movie so much.) If people want to get a sense of the Dan White trial and the angry aftermath, they can watch The Times of Harvey Milk -- note from the title that it's really about his era, not his life.

And I really don't think films change voters' minds, unless it's for those little gold statues they hand out in February.

The real Cleve Jones and the movie Cleve Jones.

Yeah, my bf said the same thing 'bout the White Night Riots. He said his friends were the ones who made him come to his senses that night, otherwise who knows what would have happened to him. So like you he, too, listened to wisdom, albeit the wisdom of his friends...

If anyone is interested, The Times of Harvey Milk is available as a rented download from Amazon for $1.99, or as a purchased download for $7.99.

It also seems to make the rounds on PBS every couple of years, so if you've got a Tivo-like system and aren't in a hurry...

I saw the "Milk" last Friday. I thought the acting was superb... not just Sean Penn, but much of the cast, including Josh Brolin, James Franco and others. It's a very good movie, and yet... I was disappointed. Maybe after seeing the previews, my expectations were too high. I'm not sure, I just might need to see it again. My rule is, if I know the story, then the journey has to be enjoyable, or fascinating to watch it unfold. I felt neither. For some reason, the movie just didn't move me. Until the end, with the shooting and the candlelight march, then some tears came. Up until then I just wasn't that moved, or inspired. OK, and the opening credits montage was sobering, and a reminder of the past.

I think there was just too much ground covered, and not enough time. I felt like I wanted to see a lot more of how his campaigns were run. Or... mention the first couple, but really focus on the last one, so we can learn more. I also wanted to learn more about what he did in NYC before he moved to San Fran. I felt like so much was just touched on, with no details. They did a little bit better in showing some of the inner workings of the Board of Supervisors, but that was really only between him and Dan White. I did find a lot of that to be the most interesting part of the movie.

I guess, to me, the movie lacked a focus. Was it supposed to be a biopic? Then we missed what happened the first 40 years of his life. Was it about the struggle to become to first openly gay politician? Then we missed alot about the discrimination and obstacles he faced. Was it about his fight of Proposition 6? Alot of time was spent on this... it could have been a movie unto itself. Was about his relationship with Dan White, and what led Dan to kill him and the mayor? As good as a movie as it is (and, it is a good movie, don't get me wrong), somehow I'm just not sure what it was supposed to be about.

I definitely recommend you go see it, especially younger people who don't have a good sense of history. I think the documentary might cover some of this better (it's been awhile since I've seen it), but this is as good a starting point in learning your history as any.

Also of interest... here's a movie where you have some straight actors playing gay, and at least one gay actor playing straight.

I thought about this after seeing it today. I don't think enough people would have seen it if it were released before now, so I don't know if it would have changed minds. I think that, because of how the vote went in California and how there was such a reaction to it, it may be more effective now.

I enjoyed the film and the acting. I got a little emotional at the very end of it.



And which one would that be?

There are a number of gay actors in Milk playing both gay and straight. I can think of three.

Found this article from Time magazine published in 1978 following the murder of Moscone and Milk. I had wondered about Milk tape recording himself in the movie--wondered if that had happened in real life. Apparently it had.

I'm looking forward to seeing this movie now that it's in wide release. The reviews have been nothing but wonderful.



I believe the reference to the gay actor playing straight is Victor Garber, who plays George Moscone, although I think he's only "out" in the way that Nathan Lane and David Hyde Pierce were for years.

Actually, I forgot about him. Doh! I was mainly referring to Denis O'Hare, who plays the homophobic State Senator John Briggs, after which the Briggs Initiative was named. A bit of ironic casting.

It's not in wide release in Philadelphia yet. It's at the same 2 theaters (one downtown, the other in Jersey) that usually have these types of films (i.e. not the usual Hollywood junk). That's why I went to see it yesterday -- I checked the listings for the AMC theaters I usually go to and neither one had it this weekend.

I just saw Milk with my BFF fruit fly from college. I cried a couple of times but then in the closing moments she sobbed and we just lost it. I thought the acting was amazing, Sean Penn was incredible. He had a certain pep in his step at a certain point and I was just like wow and the love between he and James Franco was so believable. It definitely was empowering given the state of the world and how people think of gays and lesbians as degenerates and what we can do to fight back. Definitely a must see.

Awards season has begun, and the National Board of Review has given Best Supporting Actor to Josh Brolin* in Milk. Milk was also on their Top 10 list (Slumdog Millionaire won for Best Film).

*I'm a bit surprised at this, as I didn't think Brolin was all that, in part because the character wasn't all that. I personally didn't understand that character. He was tortured, but I didn't understand why. And his anguish didn't seem to be logically leading to killing Moscone and Milk. Sean Penn, who surely must be a serious Best Actor contender, lost out to Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino.

I just found out this morning Milk is coming to my towns' AMC Friday. Good deal!

I think that's more a weakness of the film than the performance.

Just got back from seeing the movie, and thought it was fantastic. I've seen the Times of Harvey Milk and read the Mayor of Castro Street, so I knew the basic facts and the emotional pull of Milk's story, and I think Van Sant and all the actors did an amazing job bringing that time to life. I was in tears several times (although I'm pretty sentimental, so that's not surprising) and of course the end packs a stunning emotional wallop. Penn has been rightly praised for his efforts to bring Milk to life - he's so light and funny and charming and you totally understand why Milk was successful - but I was most impressed with Emile Hirsh as Cleve Jones; he lights up every scene he's in.



I was surprised as well at first to see this, because both James Franco and Hirsh are fantastic, but Brolin probably has the toughest part. He's not in much of the film, but is pivotal. It is true the movie does not provide a concrete rationale for his actions, but that's actually in line with history. No one really knows why he did it, although it is also true that Milk thought White was a closet case and began to fear him towards the end of his life. Brolin does a lot with the small amount of screen time he has, and manages to give a hint of the innter turmoil this guy clearly had, even in scenes where White is relatively happy - and he does one of the best drunk scenes ever put on the screen.



You know, I thought there was a tinge of effeminancy in the character; I was wondering whether the actor was deliberately hinting at a bit of a closet issue with Briggs as well. I've also got to wonder about Lucas Grabeel, who plays one of Milk's supporters. He also plays the nearly-gay Ryan in the High School Musical series (apparently the character was made explicitly gay in a stage show based on the original), and let's just say he seems to know the terrain.

I'm always looking for ways to understand people whose emotions drive them to harm others. For me the most interesting part of the documetary (which I finally saw in its entirety tonight) was the tape they play of Dan White's confession. It is rare to get such a vivid self-portrait of a killer's mental journey so soon after the act.

Nothing may be able to fully explain a murderer's motives - much less justify them - but one has to understand why that tape moved a jury to sympathize with him, hand-picked though it was by the defense.

As for whether White was a closet case, that tape did nothing to suggest it. Milk himself would be the best person to have known that. And even he could have been biased by his own ego, as all natural politicians are. And Milk was an archetype of the species.

As for emotional response, I felt moved by the movie. And moved even more by much of the documentary. But the saddest I felt was the documentary's riots after White's manslaughter conviction. It's the saddest I've felt since watching the reaction in the black community after King's assasination. But I was not brought to tears until I listened to his "I have a dream" speech years later. My "Milk Moment" still awaits.

Much better than I expected, and maybe Van Sant's best film since My Own Private Idaho. I particularly liked that it showed cops beating the sh*t out of gay bar patrons (as was often the case just 30 years ago), and Milk reading the political riot act to Mayor Moscone.

The NY Film Critics Circle gave "Milk" Best Film & Actor.

http://www.nyfcc.com/awards.php

Although Sean Penn received a Best Actor nomination, the Golden Globes failed to nominate "Milk" for Best Picture (Drama).

"Milk" broadens its release this week, although only to 328 screens (vs. 3,500+ for each of Twilight, Four Christmases, and The Day the Earth Stood Still).

The Advocate has posted a negative commentary on Sean Penn titled "A Friend to Gays and Antigay Dictators Alike", as well as response in defence of Penn by Cleve Jones.

I finally saw 'Milk' today. Loved it! It packed a pretty emotional whallop for me. I'm always amazed when filmmakers can still put you on the edge of your seat when you already know ahead of time what's coming. If this film isn't nominated for a Best Picture Oscar, I'll be shocked. Sean Penn was outstanding, and I'm kinda officially in love with James Franco, who portrayed Scotty brilliantly. The blending of the archived footage into the film was incredibly well done.

I saw "Milk" at the Castro Theatre about a week ago, and did a fair amount of sniffling as a lot of it brought back some intense memories. It was also a bit... surreal maybe to walk out of the movie an onto the movie's main set, Castro Street. Oh yeah, and I was also surprised to see myself in the movie. I was one of the guys in the candlelight march the night of the assassination. That was me, the fifth candle from the right at Market & Laguna right above the old Central Freeway. Did you see me?

How did I like it? I've been trying to separate content from the movie's craftsmanship. I think it's an excellent movie with some excellent performances, but I won't storm the battlements if it doesn't win an Oscar.

As an aside, did any of the other Bay Area residents on this board find any of the goofs in the film?

Here are a couple of mine:

1. The 440 bar (formerly Daddy's) was used as the site of Toad Hall. The real Toad Hall is now the upstairs part of the Walgreen's at 18th & Castro. (440 is almost directly across from the Castro Theatre.)

2. The streetcars didn't turn onto Market Street at 17th Street back then. In those pre-Muni Metro days they went straight from 17th into the Twin Peaks Tunnel at Collingwood & Market.

I was pretty young, but I remember the news reports of the now (in)famous public statement Dianne Feinstein made about Mayor Moscone and Harvey Milk when they were killed. It was only later that I learned of the Twinkie defense and the rest.

Anyhow, I plan on seeing "Milk" on New Year's Day. One of my best buds and I have our own "gay film festival" and we get lunch (dim sum this year) and then hit the multiplex for two or three movies in a row. This year, it's "Milk", then "Frost/Nixon" and "Quantum of Solace". The films don't need to be gay themed, but anything with Daniel Craig will do in a pinch.

I didn't lose it until the candlelight vigil scene at the end

it's a pretty powerful movie; can't wait until it comes out on DVD so I can buy it

Ahnold signs bill honoring Milk.

Tho symbolic I think it's pretty cool, especially since it's the 1st time that an openly gay individual is officially honored in any state for civil rights struggle here in the US.