Howdy there...yes, this is my first post, although I've been lurking for a bit now.

Question to the guys out there: Has the idea of watching or playing sports ever made you insecure about your masculinity? Does watching or playing sports help you to "accept" your masculinity?

I have no idea whether these are crazy questions and if this post is going to be ignored, but I'm here 'cause I'm trying to find some answers within myself.

Thanks

--john

I don't think watching or playing sports makes a person masculine, or means a person is more masculine, or anything like that. The same way that being into ballet doesn't make a person more feminine (recalling the discussion on the blog). Sports and ballet are just activities. Whether you're into them is just a reflection of what entertains you, not the level of your masculinity.

Speaking for myself, I've never really questioned my masculinity. I've watched and played sports (okay, more watched than played ) since I was 10.

Watching or playing sports doesn't make me feel insecure about my masculinity because I accept that I will never have the athleticism of a professional or Olympic athlete, but you know what-- 99% of the population doesn't have that kind of athleticism, either. Similarly, I'm not threatened that there are super smart or amazingly artistic people in the world, either. Knowing that there are smarter people than me doesn't make me feel dumb (I like to think I'm slightly above average in intelligence), nor do gifted artists scare me (I think I have an artistic sense and can appreciate things that are artful), so I don't think one needs to feel insecure about one's masculinity because some people are faster or stronger.

Participating or watching (or talking about sports on the Outsports message board) in itself doesn't make you any more "masculine," I don't think, but perhaps the commaradarie of doing something with other men, the male bonding and such, can be a positive thing. Playing one-on-one with a male friend is perhaps more "manly" than going bra shopping with your best female friend, but that doesn't make it any better or worse. They're just different activities, and neither makes you any more of a "man."

So I would say to you, don't feel intimidated. But at the same time, don't think that sports is the magic elixer that will make you into a "manly man." Being a man, and being masculine, are about much more than that.

It is not a "crazy question" but a confusing one for me. Why should watching sports make one question one's masculinity? What am I missing?

Watching or following sports doesn't make me feel masculine. It gives me pleasure. Expressing an intersest in sports here on Outsports is even more of a pleasure because I can do so as an openly gay man. This is the only place that I feel really comfortable as both a gay man and a sports fan.

Hope that helps answer your question.

Maybe the OP can give us more insight to his question (and it's an interesting one), but I don't think playing or watching makes you more manly or masculine, but I guess it's possible in a "state of mind" sort of way. For me, when I'm talking sports with a straight person who knows I'm gay, it does give me some sense of being more masculine at times. That may have more to do with feeling like straight folks assume us gays guys know nothing about sports. I do like breaking that stereotype (which assumes feminity) when given the chance.

Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

A little background...

My life totally fits that gay stereotype of a very controlling mother and and no strong male figure in my life. I am totally convinced that my mother hates men.

Is there a particular sport I had in mind? No, not really. Was I good at sports when I was a kid? Absolutely not. But there were at least a couple of male family friends who tried to get me to go out and play ball or go to a sporting event, and they were promptly chewed out and devoured by momster. My mother HATED sports and would ridicule anyone in the house who watched sports, especially football. My mother totally discouraged me from any of the roughhousing that is normal for kids. She would tell me that that is "following the crowd" and that I should "be myself" which included giving me "forced" piano lessons (to this day, I will NEVER play the piano again).

Yes, I think what I am missing most is a real bond with another man, and I'm not talking about sexual. I'm turning 44 next week. At the beginning of the year, I decided to get a personal trainer and try to loose some of the weight I put on over the years The more we are working out together, the more I am getting a "man-crush" on him (he is totally straight and is totally cool that I'm gay) but I am feeling this intense need to spill by guts to him about all this. I don't know if that is a good idea, but I do know that if I'm having a hard time getting my point across to you guys, I should probably keep my mouth shut.

Have I made any sense....?

I wouldn't spill your guts out to your personal trainer. It's not like you and a friend are working out together. He's technically like an employee. It wouldn't be appropriate. Talk to your friends, or at least talk to people here.

And don't listen to your mother, if indeed you are still listening to her, and forget what she's said in the past.

I don't know where you're from, but I'd recommend you join a gay softball league if there's one in your area. You don't really need to play well or even know how to play. Beginners are usually welcome. And being part of a team, you can socialize and bond with your teammates and players on other teams in the league.

I want to ditto what everyone has said here...

One thing that is interesting (& sometimes annoying) is when my gay friends (male ones that is) say to me, "How butch!," when I tell them I'm gonna watch/go to a SC football game or when I tell them that I want to watch CFB all day Sat because there are gonna be some good matchups, which I don't want to miss. It is interesting because some in the gay male world find it attractive that I may like sports, especially CFB. Others say, "How butch!," w/ a condescending tone (which annoys the f**k out of me). Like some how I shouldn't be watching something so "hetero" or that watching any sports that tends to ostracize gay men (& women) is a big no-no. And although that may be true to some degree, the fact is a place like OS has given a different image to the glbt community & their love for sports. So back to your original ques, "Has the idea of watching or playing sports ever made you insecure about your masculinity? Does watching or playing sports help you to "accept" your masculinity?" I do think--at least for me--sports (watching &/or playing) has helped me, to some degree, get "in touch" w/ my masculinity. Now if I played football for example w/ really GOOD players, then yes, I would feel insecure, but not about my masculinity. If anything, I'd feel intimidated by their level/ability to play the game. Otherwise, no I don't feel insecure about my masculinity. Hope that helps.

I've had similar experiences SCTrojan. I play softball and love watching sports on TV and when I'd meet a guy and tell him about my interest in sports, alot of guys were cool and even curious to learn more about it. But many others would say ooh that's so butch" as if somehow all we're (gay men) are allowed to be interested in, sportswise, is figure skating. I was invited to a Super Bowl party once with a group of mostly gay men and all most of them cared about was the commercials and Janet Jackson's halftime show. Don't get me wrong, I like the commercials and can get into a good halftime show but the game is first and foremost to me.

Yeah GTF, that's why I prefer watching the Super Bowl, for ie, w/ my straight friends. Go figure!

Although I must add, watching any sports w/ the members here would be great & probably a hoot!

I hear all you guys. Especially on Super Bowl Sunday. I've hosted (or co-hosted with a roommate) a good number of Super Bowl or Grey Cup parties inviting tons of gay friends. They've always been fun but often the number of guys more interested in the cheerleaders, commercials and half time shows outnumbered those actually interested in the game. For many friends they would find it hilarious that two gay guys would actually host a Super Bowl party and actually expect 'fags' to watch the game!

So today - I've only invited 5 friends who I know will actually want to watch the game. The keg is in the fridge, and my fingers are ready to dial for the pizza and wings - (I didn't get the gay cooking gene). lol

I'm not sure if that makes me more masculine than guys who don't like football - but I do know it is what I like - and if some people consider that being masculine - so be it. For me - its all about being comfortable in my own skin - and doing what I want to do, or watching what I want to watch - because I enjoy those things. And I've been fortunate to find some good friends - many gay - who enjoy doing the same things with me.

I sometimes wonder if I end up single from my current relationship I'll never find someone who appreciates sports for what they really are.


It's a shame to say that most homosexual males annoy me.

I had to laugh at this comment because I often feel the same way.

My schedule of teaching and umpiring, the latter being 6-7 months out of the year, makes it exceedingly difficult to get involved in actually playing in some gay league, so my meeting a guy who's equally interested in sports is almost an impossibility. I confess I've bumped into a few guys who are fascinated with my being an umpire (I take this as a compliment, for the most part) and think it's so cool and unique, but I have yet to meet someone who's that interested in sports AND would like to date me.

*sigh*

I have had similar experiences when watching sporting events with gay people versus straight people, with the with the exception of going to a gay sports bar. One gay SuperBowl party I went to years ago was about 50/50 gays and lesbians. My perception was that the lesbians were into the game, while the men mainly commented on the food, commercials and half time show. I went to my brother's house for a Super Bowl party and most of the men followed the game and even a couple of women, it was a different atmosphere.

None of this though makes me feel more masculine or not. There may a perception among other's views toward me, but as we know perception isn't always reality. Luckily for me I do know a few gay men into sports outside of Outsports, so I do don't have to depend only on straight folks to have a discussion or see a game with.

As far as the feminine/masculine thing goes in playing sports, I have not found a correlation when it comes to ability or performance. Back in my softball days there were several guys who might be perceived as feminine that could knock the cover off the ball, while some masculine guys could barely hit.

My older sister is just as big a sports fan and probably a bigger NFL fan than me if that's possible. Her team is the Steelers and she has been glowing/gloating for weeks now. She is also one of the most frilly, hair is perfect, make-up just right, high maintenance women that I've ever known. So from my experience there is no correlation between sports and masculinity. I am not sure if this is a crypto-message about whether or not you should hit on your trainer. I say go for it. It'll probably end badly, but sometimes you have to live and learn. And feelings of rejection, depression, and despair can lead to maturity and growth if that is something that you want to sign up for and if you promise not to injure yourself in the aftermath. Still the
only one who can heal you is you, you have to define what masculinity means for you and live like that man should.

Haha, thanks, I feel special now.

Personally I agree with the rest of your post. While I'm currently a student athlete at a university some of the gay guys I've met ask me how I can even play sports. I guess it's a diversity issue. It's the same with straight folk, you know. There are men out there who find sports an obnoxious time waster, and then there your stereotypical man who loves sports and drinks beer. Speaking of that, drinking a beer right now.

I don't feel less or more masculine while playing or watching sports, I am who I am. I don't need to do something or watch something to feel shitty or better about myself, if you know what I'm saying here.

Personally the only four major issues in my head are and in no particular order:

School and sports.
Family.
Relationship.
My health.


Well, in addition to those I'd say keeping myself closted so I don't get my ass beat by my team mates, despite this being California, I've heard their views on homosexuality. And either making the MLS or become a coach once I'm done with college. Whether it be the former or latter, it's going to be tough despite what many think it to be.

Well, you can always move out here, DJ, and marry me and we'd live happily ever after--unless, of course, you're a Cubs fan.

Can't stand Baseball, man. Bores the crap outta me.

Marry? I'm turning 19 soon, may be a bit young here.

Age is only a number. You're only as old--or young--as you feel.

And nothing's more boring than soccer. Running around a humongous field for hours trying to kick a black & white ball into a big net maybe once if you're lucky. Wow!

I often feel like I'm 5, mainly because I like acting goofy.

And err, how did you know what I played?

I could say the same about baseball. Hitting a ball that's whizzing by at nearly 100 mph with a bat that is like a twig. Although, a bat could be render as a very large wooden dildo. Now think about that.

I am an umpire. I know a lot of things.



I love football and college basketball as well, two sports that often offer more intense excitement than baseball at times, but the latter is unique. Its charm, strategy, challenges, tradition, and more are among the many reasons I work it.

I'm a striker, I strike quite a lot of things. Ok, horrible innuendo.

Like football and like college basketball. Really don't like pro bball as much as I used to with the money and random out bursts of BS ruining the game for what it is.

Though I know the charm and technique. I often make up strategies of how to whiz a ball by an unsuspecting player's head without hurting the poor guy, or intentionally hurting him. If he's cute, won't hurt him, if not and nice, won't hurt him, but if he's just a plain douche I'll do something about it.

I think the sports with best history are football and basketball in the US.

No way, bro. No sport has more history to it than baseball. Moreover, no sport's history is more connected to America's history than is baseball.

Aha, so that's your reaction! I did that on purpose to see what you'd say. Of course baseball has much more history. I'm well aware of that fact, I just don't appreciate it much.

I've read countless books on various sports history which were both fiction and nonfiction and none have been as intriguing as baseball. I remember one amazing fiction work that blew my mind away. I can't even remember it that well.

There's a great book I read when I was 14 I think about the Japanese camps here in Cali. It was the childhood story of a then camp prisoner. Really heartfelt and just amazing. Baseball is an iconic figure of America throughout the world.

Other than soccer, it's the only sport where you can grab a guy's ass and call it off as an out or something else that's as mind blundering.

So, how old are you?

Did you read Patricia Nell Warren's article on Bayard Rustin linked on the homepage of Outsports.

I was surprised at how much I learned from that. Well, not really since that sort of history is rarely if ever taught. But even my self-education in black history never touched on the sports connection.

The story is a good example of how football - in all of its modern manifestations: as soccer, rugby (both union and league) Australian rules, and American Football - could make a bid for being the iconic sport of the world, just as baseball could be considered iconically USA. Interestingly my great-grandfather had an out-of-wedlock child in about 1915 (probably kept him out of WWI) who was later a jazz musician in Chester, PA and whose daughter became a classical music singer. People have told me that she was the most famous person to come out of Chester. Obviously they do not count this openly gay person as famous.

In your post above you said you wanted to make it into the MLS.

Killjoy!

I haven't. I'll have to when I've got time.



Oh.




Is it Dr, Killjoy or Professor Killjoy? I often forget to differentiate between the two.