"The second attack was aimed at the house of a Taleban commander about 10km (six miles) from the town of Wanna, local reports said.

But officials told the BBC that the drone actually hit the house of a pro-government tribal leader, killing him and four members of his family, including a five-year-old child."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7847423.stm

and in Afghanistan too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7850146.stm


CHANGE
CHANGE
CHANGE

Yes, this is horrible.

Yes, President Obama needs to draw down the troops in Afghanistan after improving civil society there and ensuring they have an army to defend it and prevent the Taliban from regaining control.

Yes, President Obama hasn't been in office even a week, and yes, he's signed off on freezing all last-minute Bush administration regulations, hiring major anti-torture lawyers for Justice Department posts, closing Guantánamo, allowing states to tighten emission standards, repeal the Mexico City rule banning discussion or distribution of family planning materials, etc. He's even considering nationalizing major banks to prevent the continued collapse of our financial system--nationalizing banks, you mean what W allowed FOREIGN sovereign wealth funds to do for years, but which Britain and other countries are now doing to protect their taxpayers, which could also be called SOCIALISM? Nooooooo...!

BUT NOTHING HE DOES WILL EVER BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR BILL W!

closing Guantanamo? Bush closed Abu Ghraib.

I find it hard to justify drone bombings in any context. And the coming troop surge in Afghanistan smells of disaster.

FT -- I'm sorry, I just can't help myslef, and I say this with a smile on my face (in good fun), having spent many months of my life in Kandahar in 2002. If you re-read your post, it does have a certain, old familiar ring, doesn't it?

"We'll stand down, when the Afghans can stand up." FT, 26 January 2009

"Our strategy can be summed up this way: As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down." Pres. Bush, 28 June 2005





Newsflash -- the Government of Iraq has reopened Abu Ghraib under the name Baghdad Central Prison. But it's in Abu Graib, and Iraqis tend to call things by their location, rather than by a name, ensuring that it will always carry that infamous name that cost our efforts here so much.

Official USG policy? Unless invited to do so by the GoI, we go nowhere near it (and them probably not).

You created a quote for me, which isn't surprising. But do you not agree that Afghanistan needs a stronger civil society and rule of law? Or not? Do you believe that the Taliban should be allowed to resume its control of the country? Just asking?

Bill W, are you claiming that Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo are the same thing? Does closing Gitmo and figuring out a LEGAL and internationally legitimate way to address the people who've been imprisoned there not matter to you? No, I know, you skipped over every thing else I wrote just to focus on what was an abhorrent event, the killing of innocents.

Getting out of both Iraq and Afghanistan, with international forces ensuring peace in the latter, should be Obama's goal, as it is. Just repeat what I wrote, right or wrong, but no need to create quotes. We've had enough of that from 2001-2008 to last a lifetime.

We have to demonstrate that there is no refuge anywhere for an individual, or individuals, who murder US citizens and profess the intent to continue doing so.

Our purpose in Afghanistan should be to capture Osama bin Laden and any of his cohorts, and bring them to justice.

Rebuilding Afghanistan - and now Iraq, where we never should have been in the first place - should be the role of international humanitarian bodies protected by international military forces.

This is not a utopian dream - that would be a world in which injustice never occurs to begin with. It is instead how international law and cooperation should work.

Concerning Bill W's initial comment, the death of someone resisting arrest is not always a murder. It is true that these bombings by drones are a far cry more than an arrest, and should not be a part of our function in Afghanistan.

Not only Karzi and others have complained that they will eventually do more harm than good, just as torture has. We have lost the focus in Afghanistan just as we did long before the Iraq invasion. However I am not willing to put Obama's administration in the same boat with the Bush-Cheney regime's machiavellian pursuit.

Bill W., the next four to eight years are going to be really tough for you, aren't they. How sad. Remember, no matter how you try, you will not get those four to eight years back, as you spend that time period obviously stewing in your own bitterness. Maybe you would feel better by moving somewhere else. Canada is a nice country, just for a suggestion. Obama has been in office less than a week, yet I guess you were expecting nirvana. Hate to disappoint you, but we as a nation are in really, really bad shape. Have you checked your 401K account lately? Have you listened to the news lately? Lots of companies are laying off, lots of companies are closing their doors, filing bankruptcy. If you are going to spend the next four to eight years nit-picking Obama to death, please do America a favor and leave. You are not a true American if you cannot support our president, and frankly, I am sick and tired of your ilk. You had eight years...eight years and look what happened...this country has been run into the ground. Give Obama a little more than a week to solve all the world's problems, won't you? After all, the incompetent idiot who had the office didn't run everything into the ground in less than a week...do you honestly expect Obama to undo everything the idiot did in less than a week?

America, love it or leave it, huh?

m'beach, I laugh at your assumption (shared by others in the past) that I was a supporter of Bush, who should rot in prison the rest of his days. Because if I am skeptical of our new Imperial Manager, I must be a Republican, as everyone is an acolyte of one of the two corporate parties, right? I voted for Cynthia McKinney for president in my electorally meaningless state of New York.

Not only do I not expect Obama to undo all of Bush's policies, HE DOESN'T WANT TO. Are you aware that his executive order "closing Guantanamo" continues the Bush policy of renditions to "third countries," where suspects can be tortured or executed? Of course you don't -- it doesn't fit in a headline.

http://www.allannairn.com/2009/01/torture-...an-torture.html


"You are not a true American if you cannot support our president"

^Fascist bullsh*t.

I don't have a problem with your criticizing Obama, and I know you weren't a Bush supporter (most of them who were on here have vanished into the ether), but I do say give the man a chance. He is not going to be perfect. He is not going to be a Socialist Jesus who rights every wrong. He can only do so much, even though he does occupy the now-Imperial seat of our presidency. But give him a chance. Disagree when you want, rant when you want, but keep in mind that he's facing a series of crises which few recent presidents have. Bill Clinton used to enrage me again and again with his triangulatory BS and capitulation to the reich-wingers, but in the end I realize he was a pretty good leader, far better than many of his predecessors, and I said when Obama came in that I would view him in the political context in which he's operating. That doesn't mean I or anyone else needs to slack off on him, but at the same time, be realistic.

Just think, you could have had McCain and Palin to rail at...!

I think it's very realistic to expect a president who will have the US adjudicate Bagram and Guantanamo inmates, and not use rendition to send them to police-state nations for "justice." And also one who realizes that every time we use a drone to bomb a terrorist's house and kill civilians instead, we may be creating future terrorists.

Easy killer, it was tongue in cheek comment said with a smile--not an attack.

But let me assure you that I know more about rule of law and civil society in Afghanistan AND Iraq that you could ever conceive of.

So I take it that this means you weren't a true American the last 8 years?

I'm proud to say I'm a true American, then, because while I disagree with policies of probably every president, I still support the officeholder as our nation's leader.

Now where's my FOX News Channel lapel flag pin???

Because you're an expert and you're over there and you can see through walls...yep. Bully for you. Too bad you couldn't figure out Bush was a total moron. Twice.

With all due respect, fantomas, I believe PennState's post meant that because he served over there and was in the middle of it all he knew better than anyone else here what's going on in their way of life and society.

This thread has potential.

The bottom line is Democrats had numerous "real" reasons to criticize GWB during the last 8 years. It's comical to see anyone attempt to correlate the the criticism of George Bush during the last 8 years to what Republicans have said about Obama in his first week in office. Apples to Oranges. Democrats rallied behind the president after 9/11. We supported him in invading Afghanistan like we should. We put down our partisan politics like good troopers. Then the pre invasion of Iraq started. Many of us supported him initially while others were critical. We were told we were unpatriotic if we contested any of his motives and moves leading up the invasion. This is where it went all down hill.


Instead of blaming Democrats- try blaming the administration and congress who brought us Mission Accomplished, Torture, Abu Grahib, Jessica Lynch fiasco, Alberto Gonzelez, outing of a CIA operative in Plame, Scooter Libby, firing of liberal Federal judges, Hurricane Katrina, Huge Federal spending, Tax cuts funded by borrowing money from China, corporate scandals, Assertions democrats don't support troops or America, United Nations fiasco with Colin Powell, uranium in Niger, Gitmo, resurgence of Taliban in Afghanistan, Bin Laden is still free, Economy, Veterans Benefits slashed until Democrats sponsored a bill to increase funding, Haliburton spending, Body Guard thugs making 70,000 a year in Iraq who kill civilians, decrease in people entering the military, our military is stretched too thin, and that's just off the top of my head.


This president was horrible on so many levels it's frustrating and overwhelming just to attempt to absorb how many times the train fell off the track on his watch. You get dizzy just going back like I did ad reviewing it all. It was a nightmare.

What's appalling is you have conservatives/republicans who show zero remorse for their reckless policies of the last 8 years who attacke Obama just a week into presidency attempt to correlate the criticism of GWB to your criticism of Obama. It's not the same.

I am sorry Crew Chief- you're out in left field on this.

There is a huge difference. The Republicans broke it and now they want someone else to fix it up while they bitch about how he cleans it up. . These clowns should be a lot more humble. Their arrogance is astounding.


What's not being said is Obama is the most gifted leader we've had come into office in my generation, yet he has to clean up so messes he possibly won't be able to focus on his real agendas of health care, education, and other programs that truly need the attention of someone of his intellect and ability. Let's hope in the 2nd term he can go to task on his personal agenda after spending the first term cleaning up the Republican messes.

HUHHH? Health care cannot wait, and reforming it is not his "personal" agenda, it's presumably the agenda of the 60 million people who voted for him! Along with withdrawing a brigade a month from Iraq, which he is already backing away from.