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Two-hander
QUOTE(mdterp01 @ Jun 5 2009, 11:38 PM) *

Justine retired because she lost passion for the game. It was evident in her play. No way that Justine fell off that fast just because, and the Justine who won all those Roland Garros titles would beat Dinara and Kuznetsova on the surface with all that variety, particularly since both continue to have jitters in big moments. And who was a beast on clay this year and it didn't show? Dinara and Svetlana were and both of them split the two biggest red clay titles and are both in the final.


I was referring to Nadal since you and so many call him a Beast. There comes a time when clay players who seem unbeatable aren't.

I hear you about Justine. But I personally don't think Dinara's win over her last year in their only clay encounter was only about Justine's fading passion.

It was also fading strength against adversity: Dinara is a big girl and clay is where her shots and footwork redefine the angles/dimensions of the court, which is key to clay tennis. She's played the most solid clay tennis this year on either side because of this -- time and again against Cibulkova she was winning points by exerting dominance and then finishing things off with a winner that was a combo of power and angle. That's what Nadal did last year.

At the final of Roland Garros, yeah, anyone's guess, and I'd probably still favor Justine because of her experience. But otherwise I'd see it more 50-50, and maybe in Dinara's favor. The scene changes.



mdterp01
QUOTE(Two-hander @ Jun 5 2009, 07:32 PM) *

I was referring to Nadal since you and so many call him a Beast. There comes a time when clay players who seem unbeatable aren't.


OH...well yes there is that Nadal guy lol. My god I still can't believe he lost. But, at least the guy who beat him has backed it up by getting into the final. Nadal was outbeasted I suppose because Soderling completely punished him in that match. Unbelievable. I've watched that match a few times since it took place and its just mind boggling to see Nadal pushed around on clay like that. Roger better take good care of his serve because if Soderling is serving well it may come down to crucial tiebreaks.
Two-hander
QUOTE(mdterp01 @ Jun 6 2009, 12:38 AM) *

OH...well yes there is that Nadal guy lol. My god I still can't believe he lost. But, at least the guy who beat him has backed it up by getting into the final. Nadal was outbeasted I suppose because Soderling completely punished him in that match. Unbelievable. I've watched that match a few times since it took place and its just mind boggling to see Nadal pushed around on clay like that. Roger better take good care of his serve because if Soderling is serving well it may come down to crucial tiebreaks.


What with the Sodelring upset and today's news, re: Nadal last Saturday already feels like last year. The wording of his official statement leads me to think he's not going to play Wimbledon and his #1 status is gonna be gone very soon. Can't blame him for getting drunk on it earlier this year and playing too much, even if it was unwise-to-stupid.

Yeah, who knows on either side. Dinara may show up all trembling and nervy for the third time. But I'm not getting that from her going in. I won't underestimate Sveta's pure talent though. If she plays 100% she can win.

With the men I'm way more inclined to just say Federer. He's 9-0 against Soderling. These guys who are possessed in slams tend to bow down in the final against Federer. And this time around, everyone in the stadium will be wanting Soderling to do just that. We saw today what that can do Federer's opponent. (Though voicemale's remark earlier this season about tall guys getting tired more easily on clay also factored.)

Though I will say that if anyone other than Nadal was to blot out the crowd's voting, it would be the current Soderling. He's from another era where tennis players didn't gave a rat's ass about being marketable.



Dedric
In reference to her defeat to Serena in the 2007 Aussie Open final and before her 2007 Miami round of 16 loss to Serena, Sharapova was quoted as saying "...Serena played great...but I wasn't there."

In reference to Nadal's loss to Soderling, Nadal said "...So was my fault, and more than ‑‑ well, sure, he did well. He did very well, but I didn't ‑‑ yeah,I think I didn't play my best tennis. And I didn't play not my best tennis, no? I didn't play my tennis, and for that reason I lose. That's it."

What's up with Serena being criticized for not giving her opponents credit after she is defeated? Why is it that other players can be "ungracious" in defeat, but Serena cannot?

Why is it that the Williams sisters are held to a different standard than other players?

Did anyone see the Tennis Channel's coverage of the Serena/Kuznetsova quarterfinal match when Navratilova did a brief segment on Serena's "weaknesses" on clay after Serena lost the first set?

Considering everything that Serena has accomplished, I thought that was very inappropriate and disrespectful. I have never seen a player's game torn apart like that, even though the match was not over yet.

There are many commentators, columnists, writers, etc. that are very "anti-Serena", but Navratilova clearly resents Serena and Venus for how they play the game. I think she is offended that Serena and Venus can win the big tournaments without the traditional preparation and training.

Navratilova has repeatedly made comments on how she questions Serena's fitness and training and on how she thinks Serena looks tired. For example, she said that if Jankovic would have won that second set in the 2008 US Open final against Serena, Janvovic would have won the match because Serena "looked tired". If Serena can win without being fit, then what does that say about her opponents?

I think that of all of the top or former top players that should be able to identify with the Williams sisters and support them for doing things their way, it would be Navratilova.

Am I the only person who realizes how lucky we are to have the Williams sisters? Serena and Venus are the only players from the United States that have kept the Russians from dominating the WTA. The last time any male or female player from the United States won a major that was not named Willams was Roddick at the 2003 US Open. Also, it doesn't look like there are any promising young players from the US that are coming up the rankings to take the place of Serena and Venus. Therefore, we should enjoy and respect the Williams sisters while we have them.

I would hate to do this to Mary Joe Fernandez because she is so nice and is one of the few commentators that doesn't hate on the Williams sisters, but to be perfectly honest, if I were Serena and Venus, I wouldn't play in the Fed Cup final in November against Italy. Why should they? They get no love and respect from the United States.
snicks
QUOTE(Dedric @ Jun 6 2009, 09:09 AM) *


Am I the only person who realizes how lucky we are to have the Williams sisters?

They get no love and respect from the United States.


Frankly, I'm tired of all of the "You'll miss them when they're gone" bullshit. I won't. Well that's not true, I will miss Venus. I love her game and her attitude.

But Serena can take a flying leap.

You pulled some quotes from other players, but the difference is that Serena does it OVER AND OVER. She is the most ungracious, bratty loser i've ever seen.

And i love how Martina tore into her for the whole "I'm the real #1" thing. If you want to be #1, you have to be willing to punch the clock on the WTA tour. That means actually, you know...playing tennis!


I'm glad Koozie won (LOVE HER!), but how heartbreaking for Dinara ... the last few minutes were PAINFUL to watch! mellow.gif
HoustonGator
That final was F-ugly.
mdterp01
Ummmm unsure.gif huh.gif That final was freakin horrendous. The Australian Open final was no better only for the fact that Serena is my fave and showed why she is the champion that she is. Quality was lacking, but Serena never allowed Safina to get into that match.

Today....oh god what a mess. Nerves from both but it was like ok Kuznetsova has less nerves. Her getting broken at love when trying to serve out the first set at 5-3. Then, I wonder how she would've served had Safina not gotten broken to end the match. A double fault to end it? Ouch. At one point I really felt bad for her cuz you could tell she wanted it so bad, but on the other hand thats what separates great champions from simply good players. Who steps up on the biggest stages of their sport? Safina was the best clay courter throughout the season with Kuznetsova as the second. I'm happy for Kuznetsova though and was pulling for her. I often forget about her one slam win, but I won't now. Two slams for the Kooz. Congrats to her. She was a bit more steady and got out of some trouble of her own a couple times in that match. Safina just completely wasn't there. Yeah the conditions favored Kuznetsova more but it was more about Safina still being unfortunately a headcase.
bridgeportjake
Serena is the real #1. Two major wins and + final > ZERO major wins and 2 finals.

The rankings should reflect that.

Dedric, I agree with you that tennis is better off for having Venus and Serena, American tennis in particular. But I personally am not a fan of either player.
mdterp01
QUOTE(Dedric @ Jun 6 2009, 09:09 AM) *

In reference to her defeat to Serena in the 2007 Aussie Open final and before her 2007 Miami round of 16 loss to Serena, Sharapova was quoted as saying "...Serena played great...but I wasn't there."

In reference to Nadal's loss to Soderling, Nadal said "...So was my fault, and more than ‑‑ well, sure, he did well. He did very well, but I didn't ‑‑ yeah,I think I didn't play my best tennis. And I didn't play not my best tennis, no? I didn't play my tennis, and for that reason I lose. That's it."

What's up with Serena being criticized for not giving her opponents credit after she is defeated? Why is it that other players can be "ungracious" in defeat, but Serena cannot?

Why is it that the Williams sisters are held to a different standard than other players?

Did anyone see the Tennis Channel's coverage of the Serena/Kuznetsova quarterfinal match when Navratilova did a brief segment on Serena's "weaknesses" on clay after Serena lost the first set?

Considering everything that Serena has accomplished, I thought that was very inappropriate and disrespectful. I have never seen a player's game torn apart like that, even though the match was not over yet.

There are many commentators, columnists, writers, etc. that are very "anti-Serena", but Navratilova clearly resents Serena and Venus for how they play the game. I think she is offended that Serena and Venus can win the big tournaments without the traditional preparation and training.

Navratilova has repeatedly made comments on how she questions Serena's fitness and training and on how she thinks Serena looks tired. For example, she said that if Jankovic would have won that second set in the 2008 US Open final against Serena, Janvovic would have won the match because Serena "looked tired". If Serena can win without being fit, then what does that say about her opponents?

I think that of all of the top or former top players that should be able to identify with the Williams sisters and support them for doing things their way, it would be Navratilova.


Serena and Venus don't kiss Navratilova's ass, yet they have IMMENSE respect for Billie Jean King. You can clearly see in some of Navrat's appearances at their slam matches that she gets caught with the ugly face. I think many of the former players have an issue with how little work and little match play both sisters can put in and then just show up at a slam and do well many times. Its called natural athletic talent.
Look...some of Serena's comments are clearly out of line (i.e. "lucky shots" and even her "I'm the real #1" I think she is the best player but she's not the real #1. Points don't lie.), but Safina recently said "Even when I'm not playing well....its difficult to beat me" and its true. Serena has said the same thing in the past. Is it arrogance? No. Its the truth. 9 times out of 10 the match is for Serena's to win or lose. People can criticize all she wants but clearly its worked for her since she's got a shitload of grand slam singles and grand slam doubles titles along with Olympic gold. But if Serena talks the talk she needs to walk it and boy must she be kicking herself for not beating Kuznetsova given the way the real #1 played today.
snicks
QUOTE(bridgeportjake @ Jun 6 2009, 11:13 AM) *

Serena is the real #1. Two major wins and + final > ZERO major wins and 2 finals.

The rankings should reflect that.


They do reflect that, that's why she's #2. But when will people understand that tennis is more than the majors. There's just no getting around it ... you have to put in the time, consistently. It's great Serena has outside interests, but it's disingenuous of her to say she deserves #1 while knowing full well how the rankings work.

Just get your ass out there, Serena, and maybe you will be "the real #1" ...really.
mdterp01
Totally agree with snicks. The rankings reflect points. Its a numbers sheet. Play a lot, do well and you can be #1. As was shown today, you can play a lot, do well, stink up a grand slam final, and be #1. #1 does not always mean best player. Hingis was #1 for quite some time having not won a slam for god knows how long. But, she played many tournaments and often made it deep, thus racking up the points needed to be #1. Thats just the way it is. I've always made the distinction between #1 and best player. Someone who is #1 and the best doesn't meltdown like that in a grand slam final after you've dominated the field. Someone who is the best doesn't need coaching because they are in a rut. Clear coaching going on in that match.

Oh and might I just add how LOVELY my FAVORITE FEMALE TENNIS PLAYER OF ALL TIME (sorry Serena...you're great but Steffi is my #1)...MISS STEFFI GRAF AKA MRS. ANDRE AGASSI LOOKED!!! Yes, I know she still has that nose but Steffi looked so lovely. Soon to be 40.

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tealsea
QUOTE(snicks @ Jun 6 2009, 02:31 PM) *

Frankly, I'm tired of all of the "You'll miss them when they're gone" bullshit. I won't. Well that's not true, I will miss Venus. I love her game and her attitude.

But Serena can take a flying leap.

You pulled some quotes from other players, but the difference is that Serena does it OVER AND OVER. She is the most ungracious, bratty loser i've ever seen.

And i love how Martina tore into her for the whole "I'm the real #1" thing. If you want to be #1, you have to be willing to punch the clock on the WTA tour. That means actually, you know...playing tennis!
I'm glad Koozie won (LOVE HER!), but how heartbreaking for Dinara ... the last few minutes were PAINFUL to watch! mellow.gif


Totally agree with all of this. Can't stand Serena, and I like Venus. I'll miss her...but we've had years of her.
And I haven't seen the final yet. Probably won't even get it on TV out here. I missed the live radio broadcast. crap. Gald Svetlana won.Wondering how she did it. She doesn't seem to have many outstanding weapons, and tends to get flat footed when she is nervous. Something happen to Dinara?
mdterp01
Something happen to Dinara? The same thing that happened in her previous two grand slam finals. She completely faultered. Simple as that.

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Now ESPN Tennis Front Page knows they are wrong for this. All of the pictures that were taking during this final and THIS is the best one you can come up with?
Two-hander
I can see why this has turned into a discussion of Serena and Venus -- that final was another dud, especially in the wake of an otherwise exciting women's tournament.

You could really see why Sveta's Federer's favorite WTA player though. In fact, there's a shot they share that's helped both of them to where they are at this year's French -- that defensive squash shot. Sveta's version is like a refreshing drink after years of Jankovic's pushy bloop saves. Sveta doesn't just lob it, she sends it back with that classic biting slice. It helped her beat Serena, and today it gave a woefully impatient and trigger-happy Safina fits. It drew error upon error.

Sveta played Safina the way Henin used to play her. Not just Henin would have demolished Safina today -- other players would have too. Dinara has final issues big time, and her coach relationship is out of whack while Sveta's coach Larisa Savchenko seems so damn cool. And now Dinara's headed off the surface where her game looks less labored. She's got her work cut out keeping that albatross of a ranking, even if she's likely to pick some points up at Wimbledon.

Dedric, we know why Nadal wasn't praising Soderling. Not to excuse it (in fact, Nadal plays into Soderling's hands by not doing it), but Soderling is the one player on tour Nadal won't give a positive word to. So I find it funny that you cite that example. We know which of the top men sounds a lot more like Serena in defeat.

Serena is Serena. I don't think Sveta is sweating it in the slightest right now that her friend didn't recognize that she held firm. Because she did, and she's in the winner's circle today. The other thing is that Serena doesn't say someone who beat her "played great" like Sharapova said in the example you cite. She doesn't give opponents credit. I shrug it off because Serena is also sometimes very funny, a peerless competitor, and one-of-a-kind as a personality. There are tons of fans who love if not adore the Williams sisters. And if they weren't to play Fed Cup against Italy this year, that's on them. It was MJ's savvy tactical player choices that got the US to the final.

It's true that Serena is the real #1 after that train wreck of a performance by Safina in today's final. But it was unsporting mind games by Serena to make that kind of remark back at the beginning of the season. Someone called her on it at the start of the French and her utter inability to even play it off jokingly or admit it was foot in mouth wasn't endearing. She can dish it out but has trouble taking it.

As for Martina, she's just self-aggrandizing. She has a right to be, not that it makes it any less graceless. Deal with it and shrug it off. I'm not saying that Martina and the Williams isn't a cross-generational grudge match (just like, oh, let's not go there), but Martina has said negative things about the entire WTA and been pretty blunt that she much prefers the men's game. If she was critical of Serena, she was outright dismissive of Jankovic.

The only player Martina positively vibes off of as a commentator is Federer. And she liked Nadal for the first time last year at Wimbledon when he started kicking his lefty serve and playing the net more. The only time I've enjoyed listening to her is during a Federer match, because she's got an ego and resume and match experience to put herself in Federer's mind and body from second to second out there. Martina's a gym rat who markets health books and made her game off of commitment to fitness after a Big Mac bout of chubbiness, so it's predictable she's going to have all kinds of Serena issues.

PS: Steffi looked lovely and Sveta's interaction with her was sweet.
tealsea
QUOTE(snicks @ Jun 6 2009, 03:55 PM) *

They do reflect that, that's why she's #2. But when will people understand that tennis is more than the majors.


Nice to hear that the big tournaments are back to being majors in some people's minds, and not grand slams.

Graf vignette

Here's a sweet Graf video, since she is in the conversation this morning. I would bet you'd never hear her saying she won 22 grand slams. She was class all the way. Looks like she and Andre have a nice life together.
---------

Friggin NBC broadcasted hours of men's semis yesterday, but they can't broadcast even a minute of the women's final! grrrr.
Well at least the men's final will be live.
mdterp01
QUOTE(tealsea @ Jun 6 2009, 12:42 PM) *

Nice to hear that the big tournaments are back to being majors in some people's minds, and not grand slams.


Seriously...you might as well let that go as far as I'm concerned because I've called them grand slams/grand slam events for so long that its not goin anywhere.
Two-hander
QUOTE(mdterp01 @ Jun 6 2009, 04:13 PM) *

Something happen to Dinara? The same thing that happened in her previous two grand slam finals. She completely faultered. Simple as that.

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Now ESPN Tennis Front Page knows they are wrong for this. All of the pictures that were taking during this final and THIS is the best one you can come up with?


laugh.gif I wish this board had a spit-water smilie.

That's a damn shame, because Sveta actually looks kinda lovely right now.

Could you imagine the same pic if she still had those corn rows? tongue.gif Except she wouldn't have been in the final -- that was a losing hairstyle.
mdterp01
QUOTE(Two-hander @ Jun 6 2009, 01:06 PM) *

laugh.gif I wish this board had a spit-water smilie.


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Tennis Guy
OK, so I watched the DVR'd match and congrats to the Kuz.

I've been harsher on her, maybe than I should have been, because I've been saying for years that she's a one-slam wonder and that she should feel lucky for the one she did get since Dementieva was somehow even more of a mental midget than she was back in 2004 at that USO. Let's face it, when she lost 11 of the last 13 finals she was in, she didn't give a lot of us reason to believe otherwise.

But YAY for her...anyone who could take out Serena and back it up deserved to win. She did.

One thing that was evident today was just how pretty her net game is. She really hit some nice touch and beautifully angled volleys in some tough positions today. She's played a lot of doubles, but I get the feeling that she translates it (the net play) to singles better than many other players.

Maybe this is just a time where she was able to suppress her Russian Head Trauma and Dinara, with all the hope and expectations of holding the #1 ranking, couldn't suppress her own. Too bad for Safina, though...like Elena Dementieva has kindly pointed out before...Dinara's got a work ethic her brother could only dream about, but sadly hasn't matched his slam count as of yet.

One thing that bothers me, as others have mentioned, is the relationship Safina has with that coach. While her rise in the rankings is undeniable, I wonder if that style of negative "barking at each other" style will push her over the top to a slam victory. Another thing that bothers me about it is the blatant coaching that goes on during matches between those two. Johnny Mc and Mary Brillo pointed it out a few times, and I found it to be beyond even what some players and coaches are getting away with these days.

My heart does go out to Dinara, though, because she does work so hard and does want it so badly. I have the feeling that the problem of getting to slam finals, just to lose, will be short lived, because the mind can only take so much. Soon, the negativity could lead to not making finals at all, and go down from there. She didn't have the benefit of being a doe-eyed debutant like so many players who just win a slam and go away under the pressure...she just hasn't been able to cross the bridge (see: Dementieva). My gaydar is all but broken, or non-existent, but she pings it regularly, and while that's not the main reason I hope she finally gets a slam, it's one of many reasons I hope she does.

Regarding Serena? I'm one of her biggest fans, and always will be, but introduced "Serenaitis" back in the medical-goof thread for a reason. She IS ungracious in defeat, and to use quotes from other players who've had one or two moments of questionable comments...and then try to even put them in the same sentence as Serena as far as ungracious behavior goes...is downright silly. Nadal and Serena are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to giving credit to opponents. Trying to claim otherwise is just...plain....wrong. And I'm a huge fan of BOTH Serena and Raffa. Now if you put Serena and the Fed in that category...it might be a little closer to reality... wink.gif

Kuz...congratulations again...this crow isn't that bad! cool.gif
Two-hander
QUOTE(mdterp01 @ Jun 6 2009, 05:10 PM) *

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I can't make those damn things work on this board. How do you carry them over?
kick
QUOTE(mdterp01 @ Jun 6 2009, 04:49 PM) *

Seriously...you might as well let that go as far as I'm concerned because I've called them grand slams/grand slam events for so long that its not goin anywhere.


I don't get the argument either. Sorry- pop culture and usage transcends this argument. Nahh- squashes it.
Two-hander
QUOTE(kick @ Jun 6 2009, 05:18 PM) *

I don't get the argument either. Sorry- pop culture and usage transcends this argument. Nahh- squashes it.


For the love of god, let this be the end of it at least for now.
mdterp01
QUOTE(Two-hander @ Jun 6 2009, 01:21 PM) *

For the love of god, let this be the end of it at least for now.


Yes, dear.

Oh and as for carrying over another smiley face you go to whatever board its on, click properties, highlight and copy the url, and then paste it onto the pictures icon as if you would paste any other picture.
Two-hander
QUOTE(mdterp01 @ Jun 6 2009, 05:29 PM) *

Yes, dear.

Oh and as for carrying over another smiley face you go to whatever board its on, click properties, highlight and copy the url, and then paste it onto the pictures icon as if you would paste any other picture.


Thanks. I'll try and figure it out. Anytime I cut and past or carry over it just ends up showing the coding.
tealsea
QUOTE(kick @ Jun 6 2009, 05:18 PM) *

I don't get the argument either. Sorry- pop culture and usage transcends this argument. Nahh- squashes it.


There is no argument. It will always take winning all 4 majors to win a grand slam. It's one of those things that are well set in tennis, and it won't change. Why people are calling major tournaments grand slams is probably just because they like the sound of it. But it's just inaccurate. It isn't really a grand slam.

You'd never hear anyone talking about the record holder for most major wins and say "Pete Samras has 14 Grand Slams." They'd be "slammed." Roder Laver has 2 Grand Slams, and that's something no one else will probably ever achieve.
mdterp01
Now this is the SexyLana I wanted to see. Cleaned up well and she is giving face!!! You go girl!!

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kick
QUOTE(tealsea @ Jun 6 2009, 07:59 PM) *

There is no argument. It will always take winning all 4 majors to win a grand slam. It's one of those things that are well set in tennis, and it won't change. Why people are calling major tournaments grand slams is probably just because they like the sound of it. But it's just inaccurate. It isn't really a grand slam.

You'd never hear anyone talking about the record holder for most major wins and say "Pete Samras has 14 Grand Slams." They'd be "slammed." Roder Laver has 2 Grand Slams, and that's something no one else will probably ever achieve.


You repeat this argument OVER and OVER. You have made your opinion clear. It is not just OLD anymore, it has rotted, biodegraded and been fertilizer for new growth....

Damn, should I be saying thank you?
mdterp01
QUOTE(kick @ Jun 6 2009, 04:28 PM) *

You repeat this argument OVER and OVER. You have made your opinion clear. It is not just OLD anymore, it has rotted, biodegraded and been fertilizer for new growth....

Damn, should I be saying thank you?


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ball crusher
I knew it would be a sucky final. ugh. Safina was so panicked and out of it. Sveta just had to play her game to win. The Kuz/Serena match was the real showdown of the FO. That's was the final for me and Svetlana deserved the trophy today for winning that match.

I am surprised there is so much negative commentary about Martina. I didnt see too much of the tournament but I have heard her at other tourneys. I appreciate her player insight. Could she have won anymore titles? She's just Martina, that's how she was on the tour. I have a friend who was running Ellesse in the heyday and he said Martina had no friends other than Chrissie, who tried desperately to help her get endorsements through sponsors, but Martina refused to play the game and nobody wanted her. And it wasn't totally because she was gay. She just wasn't well liked or interested in bullshitting around to make extra bucks. She is unapologetic, speaks her mind and doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks, really.
JC
Speaking of people not getting endorsements...apparently there is a rumor (that Kuznetsova when asked would neither confirm nor deny) that although she wears Fila, she doesn't have a sponsorship with them. If it's true, that would be really extraordinary for a player of her caliber. I realize she's not exactly a household name in North America, but even so...and even if she's not model-pretty she can (as in the interview) look pretty good and has an engaging personality. Everybody on the tour seems to like her.
mdterp01
QUOTE(ball crusher @ Jun 6 2009, 09:41 PM) *

She is unapologetic, speaks her mind and doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks, really.


Sort of like Serena, no?
Dedric
QUOTE(Tennis Guy @ Jun 6 2009, 12:14 PM) *

Regarding Serena? I'm one of her biggest fans, and always will be, but introduced "Serenaitis" back in the medical-goof thread for a reason. She IS ungracious in defeat, and to use quotes from other players who've had one or two moments of questionable comments...and then try to even put them in the same sentence as Serena as far as ungracious behavior goes...is downright silly. Nadal and Serena are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to giving credit to opponents. Trying to claim otherwise is just...plain....wrong.


In an attemt to not be silly and wrong, in the future I will be sure to post quotes that I may come across from ANY player that is not gracious in defeat.
BoSoxRudy
QUOTE(snicks @ Jun 6 2009, 07:31 AM) *
You pulled some quotes from other players, but the difference is that Serena does it OVER AND OVER. She is the most ungracious, bratty loser i've ever seen.

the most?? yet who's your favorite player, snicks? Oh, the irony ... Another difference between Serena and Rafa is in the delivery. When Serena claims she lost only because she couldn't player her game, she says it with a serious sourpuss. When Rafa made a similar claim, he had his typical "matter-of-fact" look. That said, for some reason beyond logic and comprehension, I just crack up whenever Serena goes into her sore loser mode. Now if you want to talk about an unbearable, insufferable, sour, petty B*I*T*C*H of a loser ... wait, better not start biggrin.gif

I've always held the belief that I'd much rather deal with an honest assh*le than a phony nice guy. Martina didn't get sponsorships because she's genetically incapable of kissing corporate butt? She rubs people the wrong way with her rather strong opinions? Then I say, you GO, girl!! I'm not denying that Motormouth Martina can grate a bit on my nerves at times, but at least she is always dead honest (and no, I don't think she's an assh*le, or anywhere near).

OK, on to the final. Wertheim coined a great term for Dinara in Slam finals: "unwatchably nervous," and that was the case today. Yikes, that was gruesome. Sveta, on the other hand, kept her cool for the most part, certainly in the 2nd set. You had to feel for Dinara, especially after seeing her pained expression right after the match-blowing double. But hey, it took Kooz 5 years to win another Slam (get OVER it already, tealsea). There's plenty of time for Dinara. One thing that concerns me, however, is Dinara's neediness and emotional dependency on her coach and box. If you look at the great players over the years, very few of them have that degree of dependency on their team. I never see Rafa looking over at Uncle Tony. And Federer doesn't even have a coach to look over to! Some players grow out of it. The Sublime Steffi (probably my favorite player of all time) was very dependent on her father early on, even getting busted for coaching a few times. But that was when she was still a teen, and as she got older, she grew quite independent from her coach. IMO, emotional independence will be a critical aspect of Dinara's development.

Finally, has anybody ever seen a more subdued winner of a Grand Slam?? If it weren't for the look of absolute anguish on Dinara's face, you'd think that Kooz had lost that match. Also, her winner's speech was one of the most gracious I've ever heard. Let's hope this new "Kooz 2.0" is the real deal and that we see a lot more of her.
Tennis Guy
QUOTE(Dedric @ Jun 7 2009, 02:37 AM) *

In an attemt to not be silly and wrong, in the future I will be sure to post quotes that I may come across from ANY player that is not gracious in defeat.


Didn't mean the offense you obviously took... but do you seriously believe Nadal and Sharapova are as ungracious (and as often) as Serena? Do you really believe that?

George Twins fan
Here's an idea...only post when Serena is gracious. Think of all the time you'll save... tongue.gif

Are other players guilty of making ungracious comments? Of course. But I bet there are a hundred gracious comments from Nadal and Sharapova...what might be more interesting and revealing would be to find the times when Serena was gracious (other than when losing to Venus).

Her comments after losing to Sveta were especially galling IMO because she says she handed it to Sveta in the third set but conveniently forgets that Sveta handed it to her in the second set. Nope, no mention of the fact that Sveta allowed her to even play a third set.

As for tealsea's continuing nonsensical rant, all the commentators refer to them as slams...Bud Collins, perhaps the most knowledgable tennis historian, refers to them as slams. Our most renown tennis journalist, Jon Wertham, refers to them as slams. Legendary player/annoying commentator/noted lesbian Martina Navratilova refers to them as slams. Vocabulary changes. You know, there was a time when gay meant something entirely different.
JC
I'm happy for Sveta--her second major took an awful lot longer to arrive than I thought it would in 2004--but I'm really disappointed that Dinara flopped so badly. It's odd because she seemed to be dealing with the pressure so well up to that match and then--BAM! Awful.

But Sveta deserves it. In the absence of Justine, I think she has the best game for clay on the tour, and it's nice to see her come through in a big match at last.

On the subject of Serena's lack of grace: as others have stated, it's the frequency with which she is ungracious that makes it so irritating, but also the circumstances. If you're a top player and get totally whipped 6-1, 6-0, or you lose to somebody much lower in the rankings, it's difficult for anybody to believe that you played well and just got blown off the court by superior play. Tommy Haas said that Rafa's description of the match with Soderling was a very accurate summation. Serena loses close matches to top players and still blames it all on her errors, nearly every time. In fact, she wasn't even particularly gracious in losing to Venus at Wimbledon last year...I remember Jon Wertheim making the comment afterward that obviously she was a sore loser no matter who she lost to.
Two-hander
QUOTE(George Twins fan @ Jun 7 2009, 01:00 PM) *

Here's an idea...only post when Serena is gracious. Think of all the time you'll save... tongue.gif

Are other players guilty of making ungracious comments? Of course. But I bet there are a hundred gracious comments from Nadal and Sharapova...what might be more interesting and revealing would be to find the times when Serena was gracious (other than when losing to Venus).

Her comments after losing to Sveta were especially galling IMO because she says she handed it to Sveta in the third set but conveniently forgets that Sveta handed it to her in the second set. Nope, no mention of the fact that Sveta allowed her to even play a third set.

As for tealsea's continuing nonsensical rant, all the commentators refer to them as slams...Bud Collins, perhaps the most knowledgable tennis historian, refers to them as slams. Our most renown tennis journalist, Jon Wertham, refers to them as slams. Legendary player/annoying commentator/noted lesbian Martina Navratilova refers to them as slams. Vocabulary changes. You know, there was a time when gay meant something entirely different.


Hilarious!

And SO true, especially the final paragraph and its reference to Bud Collins. I wish you posted on the tennis board more often.

Take it this way Dedric -- if you're going to keep tabs on remarks, you've found exactly the right time to start from scratch with Federer. Things are looking up for him, he has the monkey off his back, world at his feet, and wind at his back career-wise. It's all gravy now, to add one more cliched metaphor to the soup.

Serena? Who knows.



mdterp01
Oh yeah...Serena is definitely a sore loser. No denying that. She was not happy in losing to Venus last year at Wimbledon and her expressions during points against Venus I think is the reason she's done better than Venus. Serena lets it hang out there, but give me that over phony ANY DAY!!!! She's consistent and I appreciate consistency over what I think is phonyness from some other players. If you are going to be a sore losing bitch then keep it that way. Would be totally fake if all the sudden that goes away and she starts being nice as pie. And no she doesn't have to do a turnaround. She could simply just say the other player played well while still acknowledging her erros (cuz as I've said...9 times out of 10 the match is on Serena's racquet to win or lose) Its what she does. Its something about her I can do without but whatever. She's my fave on the women's side and so obviously I'm biased and she gets more of a pass from me on that. She's not working to earn the sportsmanship award clearly lol and she doesn't care.

Considering that in other sports, some of the players curse at their opponents, get into fights with them, white players calling black players monkeys and apes (futbol), I can get over Serena saying "We all know who the real #1 is" She can be a bitch...for sure. But ya know...there are worse things.
Two-hander
QUOTE(mdterp01 @ Jun 7 2009, 05:38 PM) *

But ya know...there are worse things.


And better things too. And being sporting in defeat isn't by definition phony.

Whatever with Serena. She is who she is. She can be hilarious, awesome, and annoying as hell. At the end of the day her pressers don't count much, even if she's made them matter more than they should by thinking she's the bee's knees on all fronts.
mdterp01
QUOTE(Two-hander @ Jun 7 2009, 01:54 PM) *

Whatever with Serena. She is who she is. She can be hilarious, awesome, and annoying as hell.


Very true.
tealsea
QUOTE(George Twins fan @ Jun 7 2009, 01:00 PM) *



As for tealsea's continuing nonsensical rant, all the commentators refer to them as slams...Bud Collins, perhaps the most knowledgable tennis historian, refers to them as slams. Our most renown tennis journalist, Jon Wertham, refers to them as slams. Legendary player/annoying commentator/noted lesbian Martina Navratilova refers to them as slams. Vocabulary changes. You know, there was a time when gay meant something entirely different.


I know that almost everyone is now referring major tournaments as grand slams. I didn't say they weren't. I'm just saying it's inaccurate. So...if our language, culture, vocabulary around this has changed.....and the meaning of grand slams is now changed to mean a major tournament, then what is the new term for winning all 4 majors in a calendar year? blink.gif
Tennis Guy
QUOTE(tealsea @ Jun 7 2009, 04:24 PM) *

I know that almost everyone is now referring major tournaments as grand slams. I didn't say they weren't. I'm just saying it's inaccurate. So...if our language, culture, vocabulary around this has changed.....and the meaning of grand slams is now changed to mean a major tournament, then what is the new term for winning all 4 majors in a calendar year? blink.gif


Why is it so hard for you to differentiate between "slam" and "grand slam?" Haven't you noticed that when people are referring to the majors, they've been saying the word "slam" (and NOT the words "grand slam") when inter-changing them? Do you need attention so badly that you have to deliberately (or obtusely) overlook this every time?


Sad.

George Twins fan
QUOTE(Tennis Guy @ Jun 7 2009, 03:36 PM) *

Why is it so hard for you to differentiate between "slam" and "grand slam?" Haven't you noticed that when people are referring to the majors, they've been saying the word "slam" (and NOT the words "grand slam") when inter-changing them? Do you need attention so badly that you have to deliberately (or obtusely) overlook this every time?
Sad.


What he said. The seemingly endless need to "correct" us has gone from kind of annoying to downright rude at this point. The way Tennis Guy described it to you is how countless others of us have tried to explain it, alas to no avail. You can call them dustbunnies for I, or anyone else, cares. Just stop telling us here on the board (and pretty much all of human kind at this point) what to do.
bridgeportjake
So: Kuznetsova a Hall of Famer? Discuss.
mdterp01
Sabitini and Chang are in the Hall of Fame...nuff said. Sveta has been a staple in the top 10 for awhile, has been in 4 slam finals, winning 2. I think she was in before Sunday. Definitely in with 2 slams on 2 completely different surfaces.

QUOTE(Tennis Guy @ Jun 7 2009, 04:36 PM) *

Why is it so hard for you to differentiate between "slam" and "grand slam?" Haven't you noticed that when people are referring to the majors, they've been saying the word "slam" (and NOT the words "grand slam") when inter-changing them? Do you need attention so badly that you have to deliberately (or obtusely) overlook this every time?
Sad.


Here's the way I see it. I know that traditionalists want what they feel is correct word usage. But, I think winning A "grand slam" is synonymous with winning a "major" whereas winning "THE grand slam" is winning four majors in a row (either calender year or Federer having just won THE career grand slam). I have called them grand slam titles. When I refer to Laver or Graf I say THE grand slam....I have said A grand slam title when referring to players who may have won one of the four slam tournaments. The distinction is made between "A" or "THE". I'm still making the distinction.
WhatWouldChrissieDo
Well said, mdterp. And we all know what we mean (as does everyone else talking or writing about tennis.) Language changes and terms adapt. We are not wrong or "inaccurate" when we use them in their current variations. For example, is it a "let cord" or a "net cord"? It's both!

(In a side note, I was in Puerto Rico recently and a friend from there ordered a "coke". The waiter asked, "What kind of coke?" My friend said, "Sprite.")
Two-hander
QUOTE(WhatWouldChrissieDo @ Jun 9 2009, 04:20 PM) *

Well said, mdterp. And we all know what we mean (as does everyone else talking or writing about tennis.) Language changes and terms adapt. We are not wrong or "inaccurate" when we use them in their current variations. For example, is it a "let cord" or a "net cord"? It's both!


Yes. There is a calendar grand slam, and the more modern matter of the career grand slam.

Also, there are highly specific slams, such as your favorite, the Serena slam.
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