THe AP is reporting that outgoing Mayor Rudy G. has reached agrements with the Mets and Yankees to build a new retractible-roof stadium for each team, on land adjacent to Yankee Stdium and Shea Stadium.

=> AP Story via New York Times site

Gosh...thats a bit much. What are they lined with gold?

As a Mets fan, I'll be the first to admit that Shea Stadium is a dump. It's probably one of the worst facilities in MLB. But in light of 9-11, and with all the revenue the city is losing, should Rudy really be committing $1.6 billion on two new stadiums?

Update:

=> Rudy with Model of proposed new Yankee Stadium

=> Rudy with Model of proposed new Shea Stadium

Bad move by Rudy. It's going to cost us over $ 30 billion - Billion!! - to rebuild downtown and the subway and PATH stations that were demolished. I think it's wasteful to spend that much money on two sports stadiums. I could see maybe doing one. Shea Stadium is a public toilet that should be razed, and a nondescript, underdesigned, soulless stadium would be perfect for a team like the Mets, but Yankee Stadium should not be replaced. There is too much history there. I can see modernizing the infrastructure of it, but Yankee Stadium must remain essentially the same - and most Yankee fans consistently say so in polls.

Ted, I also think that it is a bad idea. $1.6 billion is a lot of money, and I'm sure that after all the cost overruns, it will be at least double. I also agree that Yankee Stadium should essentially stay the same. I do think that Shea Stadium is a dump, especially when you go above the field level. A modest new stadium should suffice for the Mets. There has been talk periodically about building new stadiums during Rudy's tenure, but it always fell through. I think this will also be the case, especially since the next mayor seems to be rather cool on the idea.

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: pat125 ]

A second Times article (by staff reporters Jennifer Steinhauer and Richard Sandomir) fleshes out some of the details - note those reduced seating capacities

=> NY Times Article

Wow!!! Two new stadiums!!! I can not imagine the Yankees playing anywhere else but Yankee Stadium. I don't know too much about the Mets, being a Texas grunt,sans Mike Piazza's crouch at home plate , maybe a new stadium for the Mets in order.

Is this a done deal? Can the mayor just make a double snap and whola, stadium ? Most cities have to go through a lot of political discussion and tugging at the voter's pocketbook, then a vote before a meree shovel is moved.

In light of Sept. 11, I can see how Mayor Rudy is making a move to "move" NYC forward. Such a project in face of such horrific terror and loss is courageous. A sure move to show, NYC, America will not be slowed, beaten, altered. But that's alot of money. Where will the money come from? It ouches to think of the answer, cause I'm pretty sure of it.

In any event, Good luck to NYC, if anybody can do it, NYC can do it, and do it well.

where will the $ come from to pay for the inevitable cost overruns and such, why from the fans pearly lined pockets, of course.

I think Rudy has an edifice complex.

A story in the LA Times today says the new Mets Stadium (this sounds like fun!) will resemble Ebbets Field and be built in the current Shea Stadium parking lot.

Mets/Yankees new digs


If it goes through, this will not be the first time Yankee Stadium has been reconstructed. The original structure was gutted and replaced with the current modern concrete model that re-opened in 1976.

This is all very similar to what the Red Sox are trying to do in building a new, double-deck Fenway, complete with Green monster and the existing field dimensions.

I will also agree that its a big mistake in doing this

but I have to agree that Shea Stadium is a dump, and I wouldn't mind seeing Shea get re-do

On the other hand I'm a die-heart YANKEES FAN!! and I dont want to see the Yankees leave the Bronx, the Bronx will always be HOME to the Yankees.

-GIL

Come on guys - ease up on the Mets. Shea Stadium is not a dump! Compared to Yankee Stadium, Shea's seats are more comfortable, the bathroom is functional, concession stands are plentiful the views are great. Yankee stadium is just the opposite. Were it not for my company's great season tickets (right behind home plate), I'd always think twice before paying my own money to sit in the stands.

I understand the historical significance of Yankee stadium but lest we forget, a pillar fell from the ceiling of Yankee stadium not too long ago. Luckily, the stadium was empty. Do we really need another freak accident at Yankee Stadium before we let go of the lore and realize that we do need a new stadium?

Granted - Guiliani's timing couldn't have been worse. If he really wanted to do this - he should have made it annoucement well before the final days of his administration?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hanknyc:
[QB]Come on guys - ease up on the Mets. Shea Stadium is not a dump! Compared to Yankee Stadium, Shea's seats are more comfortable, the bathroom is functional, concession stands are plentiful the views are great. Yankee stadium is just the opposite. Were it not for my company's great season tickets (right behind home plate), I'd always think twice before paying my own money to sit in the stands.

No way, Shea staduim isn't perfect either!!!

and I still think Yankee Stadium is hands down better then Shea. But yes it would be nice to see both Stadiums get a little re-do.

-GIL

I think an important issue to address is exactly who will pay for these brand new stadiums. Most likely, as in many other cases, the taxpayers will fork the bill.

It boggles my mind though. Why should an entire city pay for a facility that only a fraction of its citizens can afford to attend? I think most of the bill should be covered by the respective NY teams. If the Yanks can offer Giambi a lucractive offer, surely they can scrape up enough money to build a new Field of Dreams?

BTW Go Dodgers!

As a Mets fan, I can't disagree that Shea lacks innate charm -- but it's a second home to me the last 32 summers.

No, the two-stadia thing is NOT a done deal -- and our new "Being There" Mayor Bloomberg is not enthusiastic about the plan, which only hikes revenues for the teams via luxury boxes and adds some parking.

And thank God that despicable autocrat Rudy is gone from office. (Tho his getting a citation from TIME previously given to Hitler & Stalin is fine with me.)

[quote]Originally posted by Bill W:


And thank God that despicable autocrat Rudy is gone from office. (Tho his getting a citation from TIME previously given to Hitler & Stalin is fine with me.)

---

Hmmm I'm sensing someone is a little mad Rudy wasn't a big METS fan and really never went to Shea all the time like he did with Yankee Stadium haha

GO Yankees

-GIL

Rudy's Yankee fandom was annoying, but I was much more upset that he was only the Mayor of White People and Tourists, didn't believe in free speech, and apologized for (and enabled) racism and abuse to the point of manslaughter by the police.

And he built two MINOR LEAGUE stadia for nearly $1 billion while neglecting public education.

ya know Im not one for Political discussions and im a pretty liberal guy but you really are knocking a guy who did a kick ass job as mayor. when he came in to office he inherited a city that was a total freakin mess due to Dinkins and the last few years of Koch. Geez all he did was

- knocked crime down every year to its lowest levels ever
- made times square a place people can hang out in
- cut welfare rolls by astronomical numbers
- led a total resurgence of the city
- Cleaned up organized crime out of the Fulton fish market AND the javits center.
- helped generate a NYC economy ( im not saying he was responsible for it but his policies had an effect)

geez what more can you ask for. And you mention racial problems... there will always be that BUT there is much less of that around then there ever was before his administration. before his administration that was evident. and frankly thsi last elections the votes from minorities for Bloomberg ( who giuliani endorsed) was higher than it ever was.

People who are wimps get all on him because he appears uncaring, which i think is misguided. he is a tough SOB and doesnt take crap from people and doesnt play games. Thats evidenced by him not supporting Pataki the first time around. Id rather have a guy like him any day then useless losers before him.

as far as cop brutality goes, im not sure thats his fault but he addressed it when it happened. And deep down its wrong for cops to brutalize anyone, and im all for punishing those who did..but lets be real the fact is every one of those guys cept maybe for Louima were up to no good anyway. some gusy is running from a cop after doing something wrong, gets caught and gets his ass kicked and the complains and everyone forgets he was running away from the cops cause he was breaking the law.

all i know is that this guy has changed the city around unbelievably. To nit pic on small things such as hes a meanie is sorta sad. and notice i did not mention one thing about him and 9/11. although that day when he was walking TO the site right after it happened looking like a total leader just made me think damn this guy is like amazing.

Frankly i hate politics and politicians, but this guy would have my vote no matter what he did.

"Mikesurf walking off his soapbox"

Your "all cept Louima were up to no good" comment speaks for itself; for starters, Amadou Diallo was STANDING IN THE LOBBY OF HIS APARTMENT BUILDING. And Giuliani constantly refused to speak against the police's action, even generically, in nearly all those cases.

>knocked crime down every year to its lowest levels ever

Crime fell nationwide, and had started to under Dinkins, due to demographics and the national employment picture.

>made times square a place people can hang out in

I prefer whores to Disney, thanks.... Times Sq is now for people with $100 tix to crap musicals. See my earlier "tourists" comment.

>cut welfare rolls by astronomical numbers

A good thing by itself? See earlier "white people" comment.

- led a total resurgence of the city

If you don't count people who make under $50,000... They're not resurging with the Trumps and those whining corporate cows on Sex & The City.

The man was a petty little autocrat who in better times would've risen to Vice Principal of a Long Island high school, where the kids could've laughed at his combover and 'secret' mistress. F**k him.

(since this evolved into a Non-Sports Topic let's move it if there's more)

Hmmm I guess interpretation is just that. Funny how you blame him for all the ills in the city but every bad thing is his fault. I look at the entire picture. Dinkins maybe had some good pts as did Koch, but basically the city was in much worse shape. Thats why he was a One termer.

If you prefer the mess that times square was in the past then well that says a whole lot in and of itself. and if crime nationwide ( a fact im not sure is true) has gone down as a trend, then look at it as that NYC is ranked almost dead last among the largest cities as far as crime rates go.

Like i said, there have been instances where police have abused their authorities and they have been punished for it..but you execpt him top be reactionary and immediately condemn someone before the facts were out. if you do your research he has gone to visit families when the facts were known. What do you expect him to do. I know there are ass---- cops out there but that goes for every profession. And to say Dinkins had any plan in the crime drop is laughable

and the comment about the benefits for those who only make over 50000 a year is so naive. It was the 80s when the the benefits were all for those makin tons of money. The 90s thru 2001 were growth for all sectors of the population.

and whether you like it or not man, if welfare roles go down thats a good thing.
Bottom line man is that id rather live in the city the way it is now then before. if you prefer prostitutes and peep shows on 42, dirty streets, mobs running the javitz, more crime, anemic economic growth, well then take a time machine back bro.

Hmmm I guess interpretation is just that. Funny how you blame him for all the ills in the city but every good thing thats happened is not his doing. I prefer to look at the entire picture. Dinkins maybe had some good pts (although i cant remember any really) as did Koch, but basically the city was in much worse shape. Thats why Dinkins was a one termer. His Mayor ship is well known to be a disastor.

If you prefer the mess that times square was in the past then well that says a whole lot in and of itself. and if crime nationwide ( a fact im not sure is true) has gone down as a trend, then look at it as that NYC is ranked almost dead last among the largest cities as far as crime rates go.

Like i said, there have been instances where police have abused their authorities and they have been punished for it..but you execpt him top be reactionary and immediately condemn someone before the facts were out. if you do your research he has gone to visit families when the facts were known. What do you expect him to do. I know there are ass---- cops out there but that goes for every profession. And to say Dinkins had any plan in the crime drop is laughable

And without turning it racial since you mentioned the "white" comment. fact is more minoritries voted for him and Bloomberg ( who im not saying anything about) then ever before. If Mark Green a democrat, could not win, and barely won the latino vote, that shows that many more people white, black, or green, like the way hes handled the city.

and the comment about the benefits for those who only make over 50000 a year is so naive. It was the 80s when the the benefits were all for those makin tons of money. The 90s thru 2001 were growth for all sectors of the population.

and whether you like it or not man, if welfare roles go down thats a good thing.
Bottom line man is that id rather live in the city the way it is now then before. if you prefer prostitutes and peep shows on 42, dirty streets, mobs running the javitz, more crime, anemic economic growth, well then take a time machine back bro. Ill hang around in this century.

Giuliani and Koch -- out-of-towners always love the worst mayors. (Where do you live btw?)

I was decidedly NOT a Dinkins fan... but I had to vote for him after Giuliani spoke at a vile police "rally" outside City Hall where Dinkins was referred to as The Washroom Attendant. (What kind of racial understanding does that suggest?)

I didn't vote for Bloomberg and am very concerned about a corporate neophyte holding the office, but there have been interviews with veteran black City Council members who are astonished that the Mayor-elect met with them, because Rudy never did. (I believe he hadn't met for years with C Virginia Fields, the Manhattan borough president.) Ed Koch had it right a few years ago when he wrote a book titled "Giuliani: Nasty Man."

In a nutshell, read:

Giuliani = La Guardia? NOT!


Also, real income for all but the wealthiest Americans has decreased for years.

Hi, Bill W - I live in town, I am Latino, and I agree with Mikestead that Rudy has done a superb job. He was far from infallible, as you pointed out. He was too much of an apologist for police crimes, he was a public moralist while being a private sinner, and his concept of a "decency panel" to approve art was chilling. But he DID preside over a huge drop in crime. It's unfair of you blame him for every problem of life in NYC while refusing to credit him for the good things. The fact is crime started dropping in NYC before the rest of the country (many police depts. lowered crime by copying NYC's methodology), fell further in New York than anywhere else, and has continued falling after the decrease has moderated or stopped in other cities. And it IS important that welfare rolls were reduced, 350,000 private sector jobs were created, personal taxes, sales taxes and corporate taxes were all reduced, unemployment reached an all-time low, real estate values reached an all-time high, almost 75,000 units of low and middle income housing were created, mass transit - particularly to the outer boroughs improved markedly, and the pimps, drug dealers and hookers were finally chased out of Times Square while five revitalized theaters and performing arts venues have moved in. I understand you preferred the hookers and lowlife, but you are in a distinct minority there. Rudy was not perfect - none of us are - but he was much closer to perfect than to the boob that you make him out to be.

Why are we having this conversation on the Baseball board?

well im from NY all my life man so im hardly an outta towner. Work in NYC, grew up on LI and lived in Queens for 4 years before moving back to LI so im pretty current on whats going on.

I heard something about the washroom attendant comment but i think if someone said it im sure it wasnt Giuliani and im pretty sure he had nothing to do with the comment.

Hey whatever bro you dont like him and I do..the world will survive. as far as bloomberg goes, i have no opinion on him yet. Seems sorta smarmy ( is that a word) but ill wait and see. In the past i thought mark Green was a decent possibility but he seemed like such a loser during the campaign

What's the topic? Thought it was about Shea's being a dump. OH well...

In a nutshell, Mayor Giuliani took the rot out of New York City.

Giuliani was one of the men who made NY--crime-ridden, infested with snatchers, hoodlums, neighborhood gangs, and bullies--safe.

The once-fabled subway system was an awful mess, covered with rude graffiti, stations teemed with thugs and ruffians, and rapists--a No Man's land. He cleaned up the graffiti and made the trains clean again.

The New York finest has deteriorated into NY sloppiest-- the mayor never one to mince words, tore into the police department and made enemies galore. Neither harsh criticism, implied threats, internal rebellion, insults, and cajoling could move Giuliani from his chosen path.

He put the NYPD back on the streets, stationed policemen around Times, canned morons and paid cops. He reamed out the NYPD mercilessly.

Giuliani made NYC safe for NYorkers and tourists alike.

Bill: The only reason you hate Giuliani is because he's a conservative Republican. Oh well, he's also a Yankee fan!

The latter I can understand.

*edited to fix Giuliani's name*

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: tzeile29 ]

Tzeile, in California, obviously doesn't have a clue about Giuliani, because if you did, you'd realize he's a MODERATE Republican, not a conservative one. Michael Bloomberg, the new mayor (GO MAYOR BLOOMBERG!!!) is a liberal Republican--or rather a liberal Democrat-Republican. Bret Schundler, the former mayor of Jersey City, was a *conservative* Republican. (And Schundler, with his extreme policies, was thankfully defeated by Democrat Jim McGreevey in the New Jersey gubernatorial election.)

Giuliani's personal life and public policies--the guy was living with a liberal gay Democratic couple on the Upper East Side until his term ended--pointed to the fact that, outside of his obsessions with quality of life issues and being in control, and his pronounced animus against Blacks (who make up 25% of New York City's population) and Black elected officials, he was fairly moderate on many issues, far more moderate than the Republican Party outside the northeast. This is a guy who supported Bill Clinton, don't forget.

Dinkins' main problem was that he was far too weak and lost control of the city in the middle of his term, but the drops in crime began UNDER his tenure, in 1990. Moreover, he only *barely* lost to Giuliani in 1993.

Bloomberg won because Mark Green refused to denounce the racist acts that some of his staff members engaged in (which led almost 50% of Latinos and 20% of African-Americans to vote for Bloomberg) and because he knew that he could count on the majority of moderate to conservative white voters to vote against the Democrat.

Bloomberg has been refreshing from his first day in office! Good riddance to Giuliani!