More handwringing among those of us hoping to get an MLB team here in Washington -- Michael Wilbon writes that instead of here, Les Expos may move to Portland, Charlotte, Vegas ... and even San Juan.

A ray of light however: "There's a buzz among some baseball people that Selig, having helped avert a labor-related work stoppage, would like his legacy to include D.C. getting a baseball team. That's what he's told friends. I want to believe Selig. He said last January that Washington was the "prime candidate" to relocate a team. He has a chance now to prove his words carry meaning."

Expansion into Latin America at some point may make sense, even if the franchise in the "Capital City of Latin America" -- Miami -- isn't so hot. Much like moving the Dodgers west to L.A. and the Braves south to Atlanta, MLB should follow demographics.

I have to believe that the Expos will move to DC, and they'll do it next year for one big reason. Money. The other 29 owners will lose more money next year operating the Expos in Montreal, and I'm sure some of the owners are pressuring Selig to sell the team quickly. Peter Angelos has no veto right over an NL team going to DC, but he'll probably get a few million to shut him up. So, I gotta believe that my Cubbies will be opening their home season against the Washington Senators next April. It's the most logical thing to do.

Then again, when has MLB ever done anything logical?

San Juan?! ....that city is being included in the mix purely for P.R. reasons....while relocation outside of the continental U.S. MAY occur sometime in the distant future, I would bet a LOT of money that there is NO chance the Expos will move to San Juan (although their attendance would probably exceed the crowds in recent years at the "Big O").

This "announcement" strikes me as an attempt by the MLB brass to sound 100% "politically correct" -- not unlike when many professional sports teams interview a minority for their vacant managerial or head coaching position, when in reality they have NO intention of hiring him regardless of his qualifications....as for a team in DC/NoVa helping to improve Selig's legacy (IMHO it's already tarnished beyond repair) at this point I'd give the credit to John Rocker as long as our national pasttime returns to the nation's capital where it belongs -- 31 years without baseball in DC is long enough (but we can wait one more year til 2004 to make sure it is "done right" -- and hopefully prevent Daniel Snyder's group from being awarded ownership).

[ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: gamecock ]

San Juan isn't happening unless MLB is really stupid. The stadium there seats only 20,000. And San Juan is 1000 miles from Miami, which would mean (if they're left in the NL East) major traveling by the Mets and Phils, and to a lesser extent the Braves and Marlins.

[quote]Originally posted by gamecock:
San Juan?! ....that city is being included in the mix purely for P.R. reasons

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No pun intended, I hope...

[quote]Originally posted by DCBucky:
Expansion into Latin America at some point may make sense, even if the franchise in the "Capital City of Latin America" -- Miami -- isn't so hot.

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Baseball can and will succeed in Miami. It's just that the current franchise has two major problems that are making it difficult to build and maintain a competitive team:
1. A horrible stadium lease and the awful-for-baseball Joe Robbie/Pro Player/whatever stadium. The extremely anti-competitive lease, which guarantees that the Marlins cfan't make money under any economic structure, is best called "Huizenga's legacy."
2. Jeffrey Loria. Bud's bud. The man who stole Les Expos from their other investors. A horrible horrible excuse for a human.

As far as Latin America goes, I would think baseball would try to move into Mexico City or Monterrey, Mexico, before Puerto Rico.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bridgeportjake:
[QB]

No pun intended, I hope..

That is funny Jake....I won't take credit for it cause I never even picked up on that until you pointed it out....looks like you're much sharper than me on the weekend, when my brain is sometimes napping.

Actually, I think Puerto Rico is a very neat idea! It would give me an excuse to vacation in the Caribbean. If the team goes there, I'm sure they would start building a larger stadium. Our supreme commander Bush would make sure of it.

Forget about San Juan, how about Havana? I know, it won't happen while Fidel is alive, but once he's gone and all the beachfront casinos are opened, can a Major League team be far behind. Cuban's are crazy about baseball and it's got to have a better chance to survive than Tampa Bay. They'd have to be called the Cuban Revolution.

I'd love to see MLB expand into Latin America, and I think San Juan is the logical first choice. Puerto Rico has a higher standard of living than Mexico, the populace is essentially bilingual, and there are strong ties to the mainland U.S. Also, Puerto Ricans are American citizens, so there would be none of the immigration and passport issues there'd be in Mexico, and the US Dollar is the official currency, so there'd be none of the foreign exchange issues that have bedeviled the Canadian teams and made them less financially attractive for players.

[quote]Originally posted by Rob:
They'd have to be called the Cuban Revolution.

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Ay, Dios Mio.

Eres un gringo loco.

[quote]Originally posted by Munson Man:
Eres un gringo loco.

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Pobrecito!

[quote]Originally posted by Rob:
Forget about San Juan, how about Havana?

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Havana would be an excellent major league market. For years, before Castro, Havana was an International League (highest level minor league) affiliate of, of all teams, the Cincinnati REDS.

I'd like to see another team in the Pacific Northwest. A place that loves baseball, and can fill a stadium most of the year. My choice is Portland, OR as a permanent home for the Expos, even though I see the need for a team in D.C. I also like the idea of San Juan, to increase baseball as an international sport.

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: SeaMarFan ]

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: SeaMarFan ]

The problem with DC is that too many of it's inhabitants are from somewhere else. That, and their proximity to Baltimore. The Expos might do better in DC than Montreal but that wouldn't be hard and it won't ensure they'll be economically viable in the long term.

I like the San Juan idea.

[quote]Originally posted by Torgauer:
The problem with DC is that too many of it's inhabitants are from somewhere else. That, and their proximity to Baltimore. The Expos might do better in DC than Montreal but that wouldn't be hard and it won't ensure they'll be economically viable in the long term.

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I think the whole Baltimore issue is being overplayed. B'more's an hour away from DC, even farther from down here in the VA suburbs, and from what I've seen people don't really travel back and forth between the two cities all that often.

And anyway, if NY and Chicago and LA and San Francisco can handle two teams in the same metro area, I think we can handle another one in this area. I say put the stadium here in Alexandria...

I heard the potential ownership groups in Portland are better organized and prepared for this right now than the DC-Virginia groups. Portland has a renovated, beautiful, state of the art minor league baseball stadium that seats 25,000, they would definetely sell out every game here. It is a larger market than Kansas City, the 23rd in the nation. And they supposedly have some way of funding a new stadium that would work. If not the Expos, either the D-Rays or Marlins. Portland's only competition in pro sports would be the Blazers, and the M's are probably more popular in Portland right now than the Blazers.

To me, it's insulting that the nation's capital has to even compete with a Portland or a Las Vegas. The capital of the United States should have a professional team for its 'national pasttime'. Let the Expos move to Washington, if Portland is viable, move the Marlins. If San Juan is determined viable, move the horrid excuse for an A-ball team from Tampa. Hopefully, when the Expos move goes through, more teams will be able to relocate to deserving, viable markets, which Portland most likely is. San Juan, I have doubts, the team will be popular at first, as a novelty, but I don't think it'd last.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: cubsfan1982 ]

[quote]Originally posted by cubsfan1982:
To me, it's insulting that the nation's capital has to even compete with a Portland or a Las Vegas. The capital of the United States should have a professional team for its 'national pasttime'.
cubsfan1982 ]

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What is insulting?? Should everyone else that wants a pro team just give up, because DC doesnt have a team? The United States is a capitalist country, and if people with the money can get their act together in DC and move the team there, it would happen. There is no need to be blaming deserving cities like Portland, who's closest team is a 3 hour drive compared to DC which already has Baltimore in the same market. I would like to see both cities get a team before contraction.

gp, what I meant was insulting was the insinuation that some people have that DC is *less* deserving because it couldn't 'support' the two Senators franchises it had before, and rather than a third one be placed there, cities like Portland and Las Vegas should be given franchises first. Not that anyone should 'give up' as you say. Personally, I think baseball in Portland would definitely work. There seems to be a definite interest and organization out there, and I think it could happen, once the Expos move to DC, which would open up the way to more relocation, IMO. What I think is insulting is MLB placing expansion teams in markets that can not and will not support baseball, as we've seen in Tampa as the most notable example. In a perfect world, Washington would get the Expos, Portland would get the D-Rays (to create division balance in the AL) or the Marlins. I'm not sure on how many other teams are for sale now, so I suppose other deserving cities could be on the slate for receiving a relocated team. Side question, wasn't there talk a while back about an expansion/relocated team being sent to Buffalo? And would it work?

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: cubsfan1982 ]

[quote]Originally posted by FootballBoy:


I think the whole Baltimore issue is being overplayed. B'more's an hour away from DC, even farther from down here in the VA suburbs, and from what I've seen people don't really travel back and forth between the two cities all that often.

And anyway, if NY and Chicago and LA and San Francisco can handle two teams in the same metro area, I think we can handle another one in this area. I say put the stadium here in Alexandria...

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I am so in agreement with this. After my last trip to Baltimore for an evening game, I decided that it was no longer worth it. It took 3 hours to get from Just south of DC (inside the beltway) to the game. It's just not the same market in my opinion, maybe on the weekends, but not during the multitude of weekday games. Heck, I don't even save myself the $100 I could on flights by driving to the BWI airport, why would I consistently drive almost twice as far to see a baseball game. All the people I know go to a couple of Orioles games when they move here and then decide to watch it at a bar. A team in DC (that was metro accessible) would generate a lot of fans I believe.

I hear that Peter Angelos is considering selling his majority share of the O's because he's getting tired of the grief for ruining the franchise. If he goes away, DC might actually have a shot. And Portland guy, the problem with a franchise in a medium market is the lack of TV money. Last thing the owners want is to have to share TV revenues with yet another team.

The Angels are officially up for sale by The Mouse--and not a moment too soon--but a condition of selling the team is that it be kept in Anaheim.

What about the weather situation in Portland? Working on the assumption that they have to play the first 1-3 years in the roofless minor league ball park while a MLB-calibre facility is being built, won't games at either end of the schedule be in danger of being washed out? My brother lives in Portland with his partner and they're about done with it, they can't handle the constant rain any more. Santa Fe is being mentioned as a destination.

And wouldn't any facility in Buffalo need to be a roofed/domed stadium as well? That adds a lot to the cost of a stadium.

DC has identified five potential sites for a new baseball stadium:

RFK Stadium
Area east of Mount Vernon Square
Area north of Union Station
Area west of Union Station
Anacostia River waterfront

I, for one, am hoping (well, first for a team ...) for the Union State west site -- close enough to my home that I could walk .. wouldn't that be sweet.

But, uh-oh, the evil Dan Snyder (Selig Jr.?) is in the bidding for MLB ownership

[quote]Originally posted by BostonFanInDC:
And Portland guy, the problem with a franchise in a medium market is the lack of TV money. Last thing the owners want is to have to share TV revenues with yet another team.

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Exactly why there needs to be a more fair balanced revenue system between the teams or else all the only place to have a profitable franchise will be New York, LA, or Chicago.

Jim Allen: The summer months are the dryest in the Pacific Northwest and Portland is a bit dryer than Seattle. I forget what the stats were, but Florida actually gets a lot more rain delays and rain outs then Seattle would get without the roof.

The governor of Virginia Mark Warner has been trying to get them to bring the team at least to Northern Virginia and use a DC name. We are in all kinds of need for the revenue.

I live in Northern Virginia and I understand that he wants it there, but the prospect of no public transportation to the games is kind of a disaster in my opinion. There's been talk of having it out in Ashburn or somewhere like that, it would be similar to driving to Baltimore for someone living in the city. Unfortunately, the main road leading out of our fair city (Interstate 66) is only 2 lanes in each direction, and the toll road is the only other option. VA is not equipped to handle the traffic. Let all the Virginians drive to their local metro station and metro right on in to the game, it would be safer and a win for the struggling metro budget.

Sorry, digressing.

Believe me, I know 66 very well. I am from Winchester and my boyfriend is from Warrenton family is from Manassas. I see them possibly trying to put it somewhere not in the city. The outskirts are more likely I belive. But, DC is not equipped for anything anymore. The city is trying to grow out, Hell even getting to Dale City to go to Ikea is a pain. I hit traffic at Fredericksburg on a Wednesday night. They will have issues where ever they put it. I live down the street from the Richmond Diamond, home of the Braves (Lucky me Huh?) Virginia needs something. We have no sports teams whatsoever, unless tobacco growing is now a sport.

From today's paper:

[quote] Executives of the Expos and the commissioner's office met with Puerto Rican officials yesterday to discuss moving some of the Expos' home games to Hiram Bithorn Stadium next year. Puerto Rico's economic development secretary said, "They are making an exploratory trip to Puerto Rico to see if they can bring some games. Bringing the team here (permanently) was never discussed."

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Hey, MLB, here's an idea... Either move the team, or don't. Either contract the team, or don't. Stop jerking me around, trying to make things less painful by dragging it out. Just rip the ugly band-aid off and let's all get on with our lives already. I can't take another year of this!

[quote]Originally posted by Seph:
From today's paper:
Hey, MLB, here's an idea... Either move the team, or don't. Either contract the team, or don't. Stop jerking me around, trying to make things less painful by dragging it out. Just rip the ugly band-aid off and let's all get on with our lives already. I can't take another year of this!

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I agree with you completely Seph....as much as we want a team in the DC area (and NO, Peter Angelos, Baltimore is NOT part of this same market -- especially since it now takes nearly three hours to drive to Baltimore from NoVa anytime between 2-8PM) and as convinced as I am that the Northern Virginia market will support a team LONG-TERM, Selig and his cronies should either have the Expos play ALL 81 games in Montreal or relocate em PERMANENTLY -- this idea of moving "some" home games to San Juan, Mexico City, Portland, Havana, or Moscow is ludicrous! -- especially for a team that is likely to compete for a postseason berth next season....after all, they had a winning record this year, are scheduled to lose NO significant players to free agency this offseason (unlike what may happen after 2003 when Guerrero, Vazquez, and Colon are eligible for free agency if I'm not mistaken), and if the 'Spos get their bullpen shored up (which cost em a ton of games this season) they'll be a force to reckon with in 2003.

The DC area not only contains two of the top ten most affluent counties in the country (Fairfax and Montgomery) and the level of wealth here is dramatically different than in 1961 and 1971 when greedy Clark Griffith and Bob Short (who had no ties to the area, btw -- sound familiar, Jeffrey Luria?) moved the original and expansion Senators franchises to Minneapolis and Arlington....nothing against the Portland area but when you factor in the size of the stadium (RFK is available now as a temporary home and will seat 50K+ -- MLB hasn't had a team play in a ballpark with a 25K capacity since the Expos played in Jarry Park in the early 70s), the television market, per capita income level and population base to draw from there's no comparison.

Personally, I still think Montreal WILL support a winner (hell, despite playing in an awful stadium their attendance increased by 24% from 2001 while MLB's attendance declined by 6% overall and look at the 20-30K crowds this summer after the Expos acquired Colon and Floyd and were within 7 games of the Braves) and deserve the benefit of the doubt since they've supported a team reasonably well for 33 years (when the ownership has at least attempted to put a competitive product on the field)....simply stated, if they haven't got a local group who will buy the team and keep em in Montreal, Selig should just sell the Expos to one of the FOUR investment groups willing to pay top dollar and bring em to DC immediately (make that THREE potential buyers -- keep Dan Snyder out of the mix -- he's done enough harm to the Redskins already).

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: gamecock ]

Well, it's official. Les Expos will become Los Expos for 22 games next year, playing at Hiram Bithorn Stadium in San Juan.

In the meantime, Bud Selig has named a relocation committee to look at the Expos' long term future. The committee consists of Wendy Selig-Prieb (talk about nepotism -- she lost her job running the Brew Crew -- I guess Daddy thought she should land on her feet); Jerry Reinsdorf of the Chicago White Sox plus MLB officials Bob DuPuy, John McHale, Tom Ostertag and Jonathan Mariner.

Please keep them.

If I read correctly, it's not quite official--the players' union has to agree to it (as well as the Mariners and A's opening the season in Tokyo).

On an Outsports board thread from at least a year ago, I posted that MLB should locate a team in San Juan based on a few factors;

1. San Juan has a larger population (per 2000 US Census) than most of the other cities people mention when talking about either expansion or relocation. And the places where MLB succeeds best happen to be larger cities...go figure.

2. With one of the best standards of living among Caribbean islands, PR is the most logical place if you want to tap into the Latin American market.

3. MLB needs to expand internationally. And soon. The game needs new fans who can share the torment that is "the looming strike."

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
If I read correctly, it's not quite official--the players' union has to agree to it (as well as the Mariners and A's opening the season in Tokyo).

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And the MLBPA would have a legitimate beef on this one. Essentially, Major League Baseball's asking the Expos players to agree to only 59 home games and 103 road games (the usual complement of 81, plus the 22 Puerto Rico-based games). That's a significant change in the terms and conditions of employment.

Not to mention the distance to fly to Puerto Rico--as I posted earlier in this thread, it's a thousand miles from Miami to San Juan. This is like adding another West Coast trip for the "visiting" teams and 3 more trips for the Expos.

[quote]1. San Juan has a larger population (per 2000 US Census) than most of the other cities people mention when talking about either expansion or relocation. And the places where MLB succeeds best happen to be larger cities...go figure.

2. With one of the best standards of living among Caribbean islands, PR is the most logical place if you want to tap into the Latin American market.

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How does their standard of living compare to that of the cities in the United States? They'd need a new stadium. The one they have now seats 20,000. Who would pay for it? The new owner? The government of Puerto Rico? If one IS built, can the people afford the prices that they charge for tickets in new stadiums? Are there enough companies that can afford to buy luxury boxes?

Expos win their Puerto Rican home opener 10-0 over the Mets. Attendance 17,906. Go 'Spos!!!

The Expos may have drawn more in Puerto Rico than they would have in French Canada, but they still only drew 17,000. That wasn't even a sell-out. They're playing in a minor-league sized (and quality) stadium.

They could draw more than that in Buffalo, which until baseball economics got wacky about 10 years ago, was considered a viable major league market. (It was a serious contender for a franchise in 1993, when Florida and Colorado came into the NL.)

San Juan is not anywhere close to being a major league market. It's still a question of Portland, D.C., or NoVa. Still, until baseball gets its act together vis-a-vis Les Expos, it's nice to these these well-deserving Expo players playing in front of interested, cheering fans.

I agree that San Jaun is not a long term solution. But it is a nice diversion/experiment.

The positive - 'Spos draw more than they normally pull in Montreal.
The negative - they only pulled 17,000 in a place for which MLB is putting out feelers.

Two years ago I was predicting that Puerto Rico would eventually get a MLB team. But it appears that MLB is setting the whole thing up for failure. The inadequate/subpar character of the stadium, plus the "Expos-factor", hardly seems a stellar draw for the locals. But being ignorant of what facilities might better serve this effort, I cannot say that there is a MLB-quality venue to pull a better crowd.

A couple of excerpts from this article: