Note: Some spoiler information will be mentioned here, so if you haven't seen the movie and don't want to know anything important, do not read on.

First, permit me to be honest about something: I was seriously debating whether to even post this thread, maybe because I'm straying from my own self-imposed exile in the Ask the Ump and Baseball sections, so forgive me this one instance. However, I didn't really know where to discuss this. I hope this isn't inappropriate talking about it here.

I had some time Friday to see Spider-Man 2 and thoroughly enjoyed it--much better than #1, which I liked as well. What I think I liked most was the bold route the plot took by revealing Spider-Man's identity (not to mention the adorable Tobey Maguire! ). This is unusual in superhero movies and was quite interesting to see when Mary Jane and Harry Osborn found out Spider-Man was really Peter Parker (as did a train full of New Yorkers).

One main reason why I liked this one more than the first Spider-Man was because of the major conflict within Peter about whether he should remain as Spider-Man, about whether he should abandon his alterego. He had to choose whether to continue to be Spider-Man and give up so much else (among that being Mary Jane), or cease being Spider-Man and have what he loved so much. Understandably, he feared that if his family and friends found out who he was, it would be dangerous to them and painful to him. I guess it's accurate to say it was tearing him apart.

I couldn't help but frequently think about my own situation. Admittedly, it's not exactly the same situation, but why do I feel that I can identify with Peter Parker/Spider-Man so well? Is it weird to feel like this?

I often wonder what would happen if I just announced to everyone that I was gay. I do have some friends who know, but I often fear that if I made it any more public, major league baseball wouldn't like it (to put it mildly). They used it as an excuse to run Dave Pallone out of the game, and many of the same people are still involved in the power structure of the Game.

Like Peter, I often see myself as having two choices: come out and feel as if I've retired from being my own Spider-Man or just remain quiet as I currently am doing. The latter maintains the status quo, which seems to be going along fine for the most part, but the former, as liberating as it may seem to many of you, will undoubtedly cost me my job, something I have loved doing since I was 12 years old, and something for which I have worked so hard--hard enough that I do not at all want to risk losing it.

I don't walk around with my head hung down low mumbling, "Whoa's me" or something. I don't feel as I need pity for being who I am. I'm proud of my accomplishments and happy, hoping to remain so for a very long time. Despite this, I can't help but being human and sometimes wonder if I can even afford to take the risk of being involved with someone, frequently fearing that my partner would somehow, for some reason, threaten to out me if I ever upset him or refuse a request of him. So, like Peter Parker, I guess I have a similar fear of revealing my "secret identity."

Could this be why as a gay man I like superhero movies so much, from Superman to Spider-Man? I admit I DO like these movies because I think it would be so wonderful to help people and do good on such a grand scale. I DO feel fantastic when someone smiles or is grateful to me for something I did. Or could it be because I just am so fond of and attracted to what I consider adorable guys like Tobey Maguire? (Buff and built guys are fine, of course, but in the Spider-Man movies, Maguire does come across as quite appealing. OK, so this is a little too much fantasy world here--but a guy can dream, can't he? wink )

I don't know. Perhaps this is useless rambling. I am not intending this to be some advice column about coming out, nor am I desiring this to be a thread where people can come and blast me for not being publicly out or demand that I do come out. I think that such a personal decision must always belong to the individual.

So, I suppose this is just a discussion thread on whatever I just said, if you guys can even figure that out. It's late, and I'm rambling endlessly again.

I understand your fears, ump.
However, i find it a little hard to believe that you would lose your job, especially if you garned a lot of media attention, and i can assure you of that.

Look at what Omar Vizquel said a month or so ago. The world can certainly handle this.
But i'd suggest you get a boyfriend first (haha).

As for Spider-man, i was surprised that he revealed his identity, mainly because it countered a lot of tension the first movie had used well. The moment in the subway car certainly was powerful and, for a gay person, very touching in the support that just popped up for Peter.

As far as gay parallels, though, i think X-Men2 was miles better.

Ump, you must not have seen X2 as it has alot more parallels to oppression, a person's ability to be who they truly are, than SM2.

Personally, I believe we create our own closets. I work for law enforcement (as a civilian consultant) and am openly-gay and have endured prejudice but it just isn't worth it otherwise. I have showered with and slept in tents and barracks with straight cops and some object but we all have to accept it. I believe my "head held high" position has eliminated 80% of the issues.

I believe gay athletes can come out in MLB and the NFL and thrive.

ALso, the train scene was quintessential (sp?) NYC. The passengers saw Spider-man's face; they don't know Peter Parker from squat.

I have seen X-Men 2 and enjoyed that as well. I understand some of its underlying themes of oppression, etc., but the reason I chose Spider-Man specifically--Superman would also fit--is because of one individual's internal conflict.

Zcar, you may, of course, be correct that I would not lose my job, but the big question for me is: Can I afford to take that risk? Right now I say no. I'm not in the media limelight, which is good, but here's one reason why I am concerned about my job security if I do come out: Not too long ago there were rumors about a minor league umpire whose partner allegedly walked in on him with another guy in their hotel room (minor league umps frequently share the same hotel room). Now, this was never confirmed; it was just a rampant rumor. However, this minor league ump was released at the end of the season. PBUC never gives its umpires a reason for why they're released, but it was widely believed that this incident was the primary factor, especially considering that (a) the ump's ratings were outstanding--he was in AAA and a major league reserve, and ( a confirmed comment from the league president stated that "fags don't belong in pro ball." As I said, he was a major league reserve umpire, meaning he worked MLB games for injury and vacation spots. MLB was aware of the rumors just as much as the league president of the AAA league in which he worked (I'm not going to mention the specifics out of respect for the person in question).

So, as I mentioned, I just thought that this approach that Spider-Man 2 took was bold, refreshing, and revealing, so to speak. Maybe the parallels I'm stating don't make sense, maybe they're stupid. I just thought I'd discuss them here for what it's worth.

BTW, I should mention something a friend of mine said when we were discussing this same thing. He commented that I was like Peter Parker because in uniform on the field I'm Umpire-Man, but off the field, I'm just humble NNNNNNNN. Rather funny, I guess.

Strange. I had also been thinking of Spiderman 2 in relation to my own life--although not in the same was as you, Ump.

I think what you can take from the movie is that, while the decision to out himself to his friends and family was difficult, when his true identity was revealed it was no big deal. In fact, in the case of Mary Jane, it was something that was going to improve their relationship. He had been enigmatic to her. Now she could understand him, and truly love him for who he is.

Harry Osborne, however, was shocked at the relevation. He, naturally, felt betrayed that his friend had kept this secret from him and angered because he blamed Spiderman for his father's death. This, too, is a reaction one might get in real life to coming out. Some people will be shock, feel betrayed, angered, surprised. Some may even turn out to become villians in our life (as the movie hints at for Spiderman 3).

But mostly, I think, the public will react like the people on the subway. "He's just a kid," they said (or something like that). Meaning, he's just an ordinary person. And in the end, that's the way you (or any person coming out) will be seen ultimately: just another person.


Now what I had been thinking in watching that film was how after Peter Parker made his decision to hang up the Spiderman suit and be more attentive to his friends and family... he became so much happier. Having those conflicted feelings about ourselves reveal themselves in our outlook on life. When Peter changed he had a spring in his step, and Mary Jane even remarked "You look different."

So that's what I'm taking from the film: that change is OK. And that if you're unhappy about the way your life is going, then you need to make a change.

Ump,

I'm going to veer off topic here so I apologize in advance for that. But before I do, just wanted to say that I totally see what you mean about your life paralleling S-M2.

It sounds like the AAA umpire that you discuss here was more of a loner, or maybe you're not going into much detail about his relationship with other umpires. I could see how being a Triple-A/MLB sub could make one have less comraderie with fellow umps. Does such comraderie exist? Maybe you've talked about this elsewhere that I haven't read, as I'll admit I haven't followed all of the threads you participate in. Do any of your fellow umpires know about your sexuality, even members of your crew? I know MLB puts the crews together, but if you've been in the league several years then I'm sure you know who you can trust with your "secret" and who you couldn't. If you were to make the decision to come out, would there be any fellow umpires that would stand beside you?

Regarding the Steve Pallone situation (another one I must admit I'm not familiar with), did he stand alone or had he previously confided with fellow umps? Did they betray him, or at least not stand by him?

It may be next week, it may be 2-3 years, or it may be 10 more years. But I have a feeling that we'll see an out professional athlete still in the prime of his career, in one of the big 4.

[ July 10, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: MSUBulldog ]

Okay, I'm breaking my self-imposed hiatus here but I want to comment on a couple of things...

Since we don't know who you are it's hard for anyone to speculate about whether MLB would get rid of you or not. We speculate about whether only a player with superstar credentials could come out and be able to withstand the possible negative consequences. So if you've been in the majors awhile and have an excellent reputation, it would seem that would be a plus if you did come out. On the other hand, if you're heavily involved in your union's fighting against the use of Questec or some other labor issues, that might well be a minus. You probably realize all of this, of course. wink

This is where you need to have faith in your own judgment. If you get involved with a decent person and you treat him properly, he's not going to threaten to out you even if the relationship were to end badly.

Yes, there is indeed a lot of comraderie among umpires. For one thing, our crew mates are often the only \"friends\" we have while on the road, so most of us are a tight knit bunch. The crew I am on is especially close this year. It's a great crew. We've done a lot of things off the field that I haven't done with other crews before. We've gone to see The Late Show with David Letterman, attended comedy clubs, and done many other things together. BTW, in minor league ball, the crews also are fairly close.

No, nobody knows probably because it just doesn't come up; and no gay jokes are even mentioned.

Some of my friends know, so it's not like I'm 100% quiet about it. To be honest with you, it's just not something I wear on my sleeve or even get into. It's kind of like my religion or my nationality. I'm white, but I don't go out of my way to tell someone I'm Irish or German, for example, or that I'm Baptist or Catholic or something.

MLB assigns part of each crew. Each crew chief selects one umpire to work on his crew, and the other two are assigned by MLB. Sometimes, however, a crew chief can request two guys for his crew and the fourth is assigned. That's what happened with my crew.

I think my crew chief would be supportive of me, as would the other most senior guy on the crew, considering he and I are from the same umpire association back home when we were younger. Plus, I've known my crew chief for many years. We have had an excellent relationship.

Dave Pallone eventually did confide in a couple guys that he was gay. I know he told Paul Runge about it. Paul (and his wife) were very supportive, but MLB used Dave's status as a \"scab\"--he wasn't liked by most of his peers--as an excuse to get rid of him. MLB jumped on the anti-Pallone bandwagon and drummed him out of the game. Admittedly, Pallone was a bit before my time, so I am not privy to all the details.

You may very well be correct, but I'm willing to bet the if it's in MLB this happens, the brass will be more tolerant of a gay player than a gay umpire. The Players Association is a lot more powerful than is the umpires' union.


Joe, yes, I am very involved in the union, so your point is probably a very valid one. I'd hate to give the MLB brass ANY ammunition. Sandy Alderson by his very nature detests us, and I do not want to give him anything to use against me or any of us.

I agree with you, Joe. I shouldn't have sounded so pessimistic or cynical. It's been so long since I've had a real relationship anyway, and to tell you the truth, with my schedule keeping me so busy, it's almost impossible to have a good relationship. I mean, just who the heck would want to be the partner of someone who's out of town 7+ months per year, and during the other 4-5 months is flying here and there doing clinics or working on union stuff? (Though it's easy for me to fly someone in to my games, considering I do it for my folks quite often. )

I think I'll be 70 years old when I finally realize I have the time to be seriously involved with someone!

[quote]The Umpire:
[quote]MSUBulldog:

[QUOTE][qb]
Regarding the ... Pallone situation (another one I must admit I'm not familiar with), did he stand alone or had he previously confided with fellow umps? Did they betray him, or at least not stand by him?[/quote]Dave Pallone eventually did confide in a couple guys that he was gay. I know he told Paul Runge about it. Paul (and his wife) were very supportive, but MLB used Dave's status as a \"scab\"--he wasn't liked by most of his peers--as an excuse to get rid of him. MLB jumped on the anti-Pallone bandwagon and drummed him out of the game. Admittedly, Pallone was a bit before my time, so I am not privy to all the details.
[/quote]Oops. Thanks for glossing over my mistake.

So it wasn't exclusively because he was gay, which gives some hope. Plus things have changed quite a bit in the past 10 years. At least it is talked about as a possibility now, that we would have a gay player or someone of recognition associated with the game as openly gay.

[ July 10, 2004, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: MSUBulldog ]

I'm not sure it does gays in general any good if someone comes out unwillingly. If one feels forced out everybody is made miserable except for a few self-righteous gay activists motivated by the need to let the world know how holier-than-thou they are by making all other gays seem inadequately gay. Some people wont be satisfied until the entire world "flames" both figuritively and literally. Everyone should come out in their own time and at their own pace, and more importantly, in their own way IMO.

PS - my favorite comic book character was Thor whose alter ego was Jack Olsen. Now I hear he and his alter ego may be combined. Yeah Gads! Is nothing sacred!!!? :confused:

[ July 10, 2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
Okay, I'm breaking my self-imposed hiatus here but I want to comment on a couple of things...

:confused:

[ July 10, 2004, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Spiderman 2, X-men 2, Harry potter 3, all seem to have a unified theme that could be construed as not being affraid to come out of the closet. To gay men and women this is definately the identifiable theme. i think that the true story is being true to who you are no matter what your story is. When you try to be someone else you can never be successful.
The road to happiness begins with stepping onto the path of self awareness.
or, to thine own self be true.

I think, wade, that it also depends on just what perceives "out" to mean. I'm out to some people but not others. But must I stand on stage and announce to the world, "I'm a major league umpire, and I'm gay!"? What purpose does that serve? What does that accomplish? Nothing, if you ask me. I seriously doubt there's an amateur umpire out there who's too afraid to pursue a professional career but then sees me publicly come out and says, "Gee, he came out and blazed a path for me now."

I'm happy with the way my life is going, so I have nothing to complain about. I'm doing what I love doing, I'm financially comfortable because of it, and I enjoy people--good friends and relatives. Plus, I enjoy educating the fine folks here about the rules of the game.

[ July 11, 2004, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: The Umpire ]

I see these kinds of parallels in movies and songs all the time. They always make me feel a little uneasy and wonder if I should "officially" come out. And actually, that's something I'm still struggling with, but I'm pretty happy where I am. Being in Alabama and having a preacher dad makes it very hard, but all of my close friends know and are great. We can talk about any issues that come up and hot guys when I want--occasionally they even help me meet hot guys, lol--but it's not a constant topic. It's there but not a centerpiece of the friendships. I've told my mom and brother and even though they both claim it's "a phase", they know, so I'm not hiding from my most important family members. This is officially rambling, but I’ll keep going anyway, lol.
What I’m getting at is that I understand you’re fears about coming out publicly. My advice when people ask me about coming out is to come out if you are comfortable with it. If you have serious doubts, don’t. A friend of mine, who had been on the football team, came out a couple years ago, somehow not expecting the backlash in our Alabama high school, and then decided it wasn’t worth it and tried retracting all his statements. Of course that is impossible, especially since he admitted to relationships with certain people. He wound up losing most of his straight guy friends and became the center of constant jokes in the gay accepting clique (yes it’s sad that one clique in the school accepts gays). If confidence isn’t there, the best of intentions may not get a person far at all.
Basically, being at peace with yourself is all that matters. It’s not your duty to come out and be a forerunner for the gay community. It is your duty to live a fun and fulfilling life, however you feel you should do it.

Sorry for making this so long and rambling. Friggin late night hyperactivity.

If anyone wants to chat sports, or anything else, PM me and we can get together on AIM or ICQ.

The very nature of the sci-fi/fantasy genre (of which superhero comics are a bit of both) is to hold a funhouse mirror up to reality to give a different perspective on life and the narrative voice. The best of all literature has something that most people can empathize with. Spiderman isn't about being gay. It's about agonizing choices. Gay people have to make agonizing choices. But so does everyone else. That doesn't make the experience of seeing your reality mirrored in a movie or literature any less powerfull. It just means it's a very good movie when you can watch something about a guy who shoots webs out of his hands, senses danger and has the agility and strength of a spider and see yourself in the picture. As Siskel or Ebert said about "Chasing Amy," "I don't collect comic books, but for 90 minutes, comics were the most important thing in the world."

As Michael said on QAF, it's all about the tights. wink

But spiderman as with other comics like superman is about being something that you had no choice in being. Hiding or making a conscous decision to keep that from friends, family loved ones, co workers strangers on the street. Letting it come out every once in awhile. Agonizing over the choice to tell someone you love or who loves you. Hoping that you are not found out because people dont understand or they are afraid.

I dont like to be one of those people who thinks every one is gay or looks for the gay character or gay theme in every movie or song. But i do love sci fi and spider man so when i saw this post it interested me. I guess you could look at spiderman this way.

He is a man, struggling with who he is. He is trying to come to terms with who he is and the abilities that he has. But he feels that he needs to hide his true identity from everyone, including his loved ones A) to protect them to protect himself. I mean the obvious theme for gay people in this movie is that here is a closeted man. that beats himself up mentally. then when he comes out is completly liberated and able to be himself.

I dont just my ramblings.

Jeff, well put! That is what is meant to be a super hero, or a hero. What makes a super hero a hero, is the ability to do what we can't do.

Absolutely correct. The glory of superhero comics is that many can see themselves in easy alegory within the superhero, or villian, in question. I'm not saying there isn't something in spiderman for the gay viewer to identify with. I'm saying that there is something there for just about everyone.

an interesting point that i see in these superhero movies is this. That there comes a point where the hero or villian who has been hiding his true identity all along, comes to terms with his powers and who he is. For awhile he tries to deny it, or pretend its not happening. But eventually he accepts it. And continues to hide it.

Now i dont want to come across as one of those "everyone should be out and proud" types. Because its not for everyone. For me personally i do not feel the need to let the entire world know that i am gay. Alot of people at work dont know. I personally just want to live a normal life, be a normal person at work and in life and in the sports that i am involved with. And if the subject comes up about me being gay or i am asked then i hope that my actions speak for me that i am just a normal man that happens to be attracted to men. No big deal.

Its interesting that in these movies the superhero is always hiding his true normal identity.

I went to see Spider-Man 2 tonight, this time on IMAX. It just came out on IMAX this weekend, and let me tell ya, Ump, Tobey looks even cuter on a 7-story screen!