Well, the gay media thing continues with the premiere of It's All Relative, Wednesday on ABC. Premise: boy meets girl, boy is a working class kid with old-fashioned parents, she's a living Heather Has Two Daddies. Much hilarity is supposed to ensue. I'm doubtful, frankly.

I'll get this out of the way at the start: all-white, upper-middle-class, tastefully decorated apartment, prissy etc. stereotypes, that's the gay couple.

One is played by John Benjamin Hickey who was so sexy in Love! Valor! Compassion!. He's hung like a Kentucky Derby winner, as it goes. Terrible picture of him on the ABC site though.

The other "dad" is played by Christopher Sieber, who I've not seen before.

The good thing is that both are openly gay (there's an Advocate story on Sieber that's in the new issue, it's not online yet). So, there won't be:

1. "Is XXX gay?" questions about an actor playing a gay man

2. There won't be any pathetic questions such as "What is it like to kiss a man?" from interviewers

The show is set in Boston. Supposedly, in ep. 4, The Gays and the Straights get tickets to a luxury box at Fenway Park. True to the expectations, The Gays spend their time watching Trading Spaces on the TV, sipping cocktails etc. while The Straights are blown away that they're in such killer seats at Fenway. The creators say that the show is about class issues, but that remains to be seen.

Also, there's A Kiss, in episode 2. It's just a "Honey, I'm home!" kind of thing, but apparently, when they filmed it, some people in the audience--yes, they have audiences, it's not ALL laugh track--freaked out. Will that be the first non-joke gay kiss on network TV?

I await George Viking Fan's review.

[ September 29, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

I agree with you, this doesn't look very funny. Almost all the commercials I've seen for this have the straight family getting in the final jokes or insults at the gay family. But then again, this is ABC. I noticed that on Spin City whenever Carter got into debates with his straight coworkers, he always got the short end of the arguement. No thank you. I'll stick with Queer as Folk, Trading Spaces, and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.

I'm pretty sure that a mid-80's episode of "Dynasty" showed two gay men kissing. Don't recall the episode or the character (he was Blake Carrinton's son).

While Dynasty had a gay character I don't think he ever kissed another man. Melrose Place purported to have Matt kiss a guy, but it was shot so you couldn't see anything. Dawson's Creek had some man-on-man smooching of the passionate kind. I'm not sure any other NETWORK series has had any.

Anyway to get back to the show at hand, I can't wait to hate this piece of crap. If nothing in the promos makes me even smile, how on earth is the show going to? I'd think they'd try to put at least one of their good jokes in the promo to lure me in. Gays as uptight prisses. There's some scary originality!

I'm also glad the leads are played by 2 gay guys. Tired of the "I play gay but I'm REALLY straight!" situation.

...on the other hand, I'm giving it a chance for the following reasons:

1) Lenny Clarke, who plays the homophobic dad, was last seen on The Job, where he portrayed a gay cop -- Lenny is also part of Dennis Leary's clique of Boston comics, which includes Oh So GAY Mario Cantone.

1.5) The rest of the cast has some pretty good Queer Credentials/Connections, too

2) Even though Frasier sucks (always has), they've always seem to do the gay stuff pretty well, if you ask me; you know, with a wink and a nod versus stoopid, obvious crotch jokes like on some other "gay positive" shows (read: Will & Grace)

3) I think a few of the previews are funny

4) I LIKE that the show is about class issues

That said, the hurdles, in my estimation, are:
- the affluence of the gay male couple (more of that "disposable income" bullshit that's really come around to bite us in the ass); I like that class is front and center, but why do the gay guys have to be affluent?! Why couldn't the son have two working class lesbian Moms, instead?
- neither family has any friends or neighbors who are Asian, Latino/a, etc.? none? not one?

I'll give it a look see. Can't be as bad as Queer as Folk (how/why people like that show is beyond me)...

I think Chris Sieber is really great looking. I actually watched an episode of the Mary Kate and Ashley sitcom one time just because he plays the Dad. I didn't know until today that he's gay. Very cool they cast 2 gay actors. I'm going to watch this show, but I don't have much hope that it will stay on the air for long.

Most people are like Homer, they like their "beer cold, their TV loud, and their homosexuals fa-laming" not to mentioin single and asexual. Apparently, the two are shown in bed together in the first episode.

We had a little discussion on this as part of the thread on the new fall TV season...from the previews I saw then, I thought it was going to be utter crap. From the previews I've seen in the last couple of days, which had different scenes, I still think it's going to be utter crap. I don't think I can bring myself to watch it.

Woah, bit rough there, B Man. It's completely jumped the shark, but the first 4 seasons or so were brilliant. A couple friends of mine claim that the women on Sex & The City are just gay men played by women--I don't buy that completely--but really, the two brothers are Fraiser are gay, gay, gay.

Erm, because sometime's it doesn't suck? (see: last 3 eps of last year, the last half of season 1). It's been a disappointment overall, but it has it's moments.

How do you know that? I mean, Boston residents, are there significant populations of Asians/Latino's in Beantown that aren't going to one of the many schools there?

- There was a gay couple on Northern Exposure, and I liked their portrayal because they were just regular guys who happend to be a gay. And the townspeople treated them as such. (Heck the town was founded by lesbians.) I think they got married in one of the episodes, so they must have kissed at least once.

- Don't get me started on the lack of Asians on TV... But does anybody remember that show where Jason Bateman played a gay guy? He had a flaming upstairs neighbor named Vern, played by gay Asian actor Alec Mapa.

- I'm giving this "It's All Relative" show a chance. I'm not thrilled at the Niles-esque gay couple (Why do gays on TV always wear those long sleeve, snug-fitting, crew neck shirt-sweaters? Will seems to only wear that kind of shirt. I happen to have some long-sleeve t-shirts (on sale at Old Navy) that look sort of like that, so whenever I wear them I think "Oh, I've got the "Will" look workin.")

- I think TV is only comfortable with gays in certain types of roles so that's all we get. It's just like 9/10 gay movies fall into one of 3 categories: coming out story, love story, someone dies of AIDS.

My flippant comment about the lack of diversity in the cast was meant to be a flippant comment about the lack of diversity in the cast.

Boston certainly does have Asians, blacks, Latino/s, a growing presence of folks from abroad, and all kinds of other diversity. As a person of color, I'd prefer to watch a show that reflects diversity. That's all I'm sayin'.

And yeah, I think Frasier and Queer as Folk both suck. Hard.

Yes.
Although I do go to one of the many schools here, I am a full time resident of Cambridge. And in a few weeks when I no longer go to one of the many schools here, I'll still be here.

Boston is very diverse. Although you could make the argument that areas within Boston are less intigrated.

Originally posted by canmark:
That was Some of My Best Friends, the show that was based on the movie Kiss Me Guido. Danny Nucci (now in 10-8 on ABC) was the dim straight guy & Jason's roommate. As I remember that show flamed out pretty quickly a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the info about Boston. I've never been there (although I'm going next week) and all you ever hear about in the media is Irish Catholics and blacks and how segregated the city is.

And again, I ask, how do you know that the cast isn't diverse? Just because the two main families are whitebread, surely there'll be co-workers and others that they interact with who more widely reflect reality. I mean, the show hasn't even aired and it's being slammed for lack of diversity. Jaysus.

Canmark, nobody except probably their friends and families saw the ghastly Some of My Best Friends. It's was gone after, what, four episodes?

[ September 30, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

I have a friend who lived in Boston/Cambridge and she told me that Boston has quite a bit of ethnic diversity (of course she taught English and life skills to new immigrants, so was probably more exposed to them than most).

Perhaps people are pessimistic about the lack of diversity in It's All Relative because of the lack of diversity on shows like Friends, Frasier, Will & Grace, Seinfeld, Cheers (set in Boston)etc.... when I saw pictures of the casts of the new shows in the TV guide there was nary a non-white face.

JA... but I did see one episode of Some of My Best Friends... else how would I know about the flaming gay Asian character?

More trivia: does anyone remember the sitcom that featured Ming-Na (currently on ER; then called Ming-Na Wen). It was about 2 couples, I think, and she was the wife of one of the couples. That one didn't last long either.

Perhaps Asians are sitcom jinxes and that's why they don't use us. :confused:

---------

The Single Guy! That's it... thanks B Man.

I thought of another one: Asian Canadian actress Sandra Oh (who plays the lesbian friend of Diane Lane in Under the Tuscan Sun) is on Arli$$. Is that show still on TV?)

[ September 30, 2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Jim A., I'm one of maybe two people here who's actually giving the show a chance!

To say that I'm "slamming" the show is an overstatement. But I will say this: the cast page features people who are all presumably white, and so have the commercials. If the producers have a black or Asian or Latino/a actor on the show, they should put them on the f**king cast page already! Or give them a nano-second in a commercial...

If others here can be critical of a show they also haven't seen because they guys are "too gay" or "too uptight", I can certainly observe the lack of representation.

Edited here to tell canmark that Ming Na was on "The Single Guy", which was Johnathon Silverman's "comeback" vehicle. It was on for...two years? She was good on the show, I thought.

[ September 30, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: The B Man ]

I saw the show and it did disappear very quickly. Even though I wanted to like it, it was totally unwatchable. But it was nice seeing hunky Danny Nucci parading around without a shirt...

B Man, I have no beef with you--though I think you're totally off-base about Frasier, the early years at least--but let's look at the situation of this show.

They set it in Boston. One of the families is working class, as the producers have said that it's more a class issue thing, rather than gay v. straight. In that context, Boston, it means "Irish-Catholic". If they'd have set it in Detroit, it would probably mean black. In Los Angeles, Latino. So, in other words, they could only have realistically had one of the gay men be a man of color. No, I understand that. See: me with gays on TV. But, thing is, those shows, in my view, reflect a reality that's been studied by sociologists, which is that the US is only diverse in the workplace; in "off-hours", the US is very segregated. "Workplace" shows like ER and CSI are much more diverse in their casting, though, obviously, a vast majority of the leads are white.

Disclaimer: Jim Allen is not typing this with a sheet over his head, nor has he ever attended an Aryan Nations meeting.

[ September 30, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Having lived in Boston for 7 years, my assessment is that Boston is very diverse, but very segregated. The Chinese live in Chinatown; Japanese live in Davis Square; Italians live in the North End; Jews live in Brookline; blacks live in Dorchester and Roxbury; gays live in the South End; Latinos live in East Boston; Irish are everywhere. I think more integration occurs from college leftovers than from any other force.

Boston is still better than Los Angeles, though. One of the most diverse counties in the world, but if you look block by block, one of the most segregated.

Interesting note: often people decry a lack of integration, but many are complaining that the North End is losing its Italian "character". Seems many Italian families are being displaced by more affluent non-Italians who view it as a trendy place to live. Doubt they would feel the same, however, if Anglos started taking over Roxbury.

Not "one of", it's THE most diverse city on this planet. And, yes, it's still horribly segregated; my white face in the Little Guatemala area I live in is rare, I assure you.

That's my point really--that what's needed is shows made by and starring people of color, not just throwing a black guy in to an all-white situation so that the network can get diversity activists off their case.

For the most part you are correct. However, Davis Square is hardly overrun by Japanese people. That and Davis Square is not in Boston, it's part of Somerville. The Cambridge/Somerville thing is an entirely different creature.

As for TV and Asian, Latino/a, Black representation, here's my take. White is the default. When a major character is Asian, the temptation is to make that character Asian for a reason. Which is a shame, but how it seems to work. The awful "All American Girl" with Margaret Cho is an example of good intentions going horribly horribly wrong. Instead of a Korean Cosby Show we ended up with stereotype central.

It is quite rare for a TV show to represent gays and Asians without overdoing it. The best example of getting it right is a side character on ER. Gedde _________ (I don't remember his last name) plays a gay asian nurse, but the fact that he's gay and the fact that he's asian is NEVER the point.

Sitcoms have a difficult time because characters tend to be rather obnoxious and flawed. Imagine if the character of Ross or Monica on 'Friends' was a minority; I can see the backlash of how they're making the gay character a loser, or the black character an annoying mess. If you're going to have a f**ked up character, it's easier to make that character white. Once you make a minority character... the writers have to walk on eggshells and not piss anyone off.

Could it be, that reality TV is the best way to represent real minorities?

Watanabe, I believe. And people complained that he was effeminate. I'm guilty of that mentality when it comes to gay portrayals all the time, it'll never be enough.

The Single Guy wasn't a bad show, it was just stuck in The Black Hole of Timeslots, 8:30, after Friends.

Orsino, great points in your last post. Comedy relies on broad strokes and it's perhaps not the right form for diversity; ALL the characters are stereotypes to one degree or another. But even reality TV has issues: it's such a cliche that each year of The Real World is going to have:

1. An Angry Black Man
2. The Clueless, Small Town White Person
3. The Frat Boy/Sorority Sister

that it's become a running joke.

It's Gedde Watanabe on "ER", he of the infamous "Sixteen Candles" character Long Duk Dong. Twenty years later, I'm still recovering from the damage that (otherwise funny) film did to self esteem and reputation.
I actually grew up in the Davis Sq. area, and my family still lives there. We're of Chinese heritage, and believe me, there were not many other Asians around. Perhaps you are referring to the Porter Sq. area of Camb/Somerville? In the old Sears Roebucks bldg. now a shopping mall, there is an awesome row of Japanese restaurants. I now live in the Dorchester area, sometimes cheekily referred to the "new South South End", as it's been increasingly gay-ified. Personally I don;t think the area can be beat for it's diversity and mix of all kinds of people (Irish, Vietnamese, African American, Latino, and all kinds of gays like me).
As for the show, I tivo'd it and will give it a try.

I think it's Watanabe. And good point.

I guess when you're a minority (gay, Asian, in my case) you can't help but notice your representation or lack thereof.

But also, when you're a minority you can't help but have friends in the majority. Growing up in an ethnically diverse city like Toronto, I couldn't help but have friends of different backgrounds. Yet as Jim Allen theorizes, TV shows often reflect the reality that in their "off hours" people associate with peole like themselves... and, judging by TV, I presume white people hang out with white people and black people hang out with black people.

This is not my experience.

I myself have never hung around with my own peer group, Japanese Canadians. There are not that many of us and we don't live in a ghetto... and since many of my relatives are married to white people, they're just as much family as a Japanese person. My friends are more likely to not have a similar background to mine.

But I would like to see my people (and South Asians, and Middle Eastern People, etc.) reflected in TV, in movies, in advertising, on the stage... because, we're people to. And we're here. And we have stories to tell. And why can't we be action heroes or romantic leads?

I've been saying that since Season 1 and have made several posts about it on various SATC threads. Straight women don't give a rat's ass if their boyfriends know who Manolo Blahnihk (sp?) is, but Carrie Bradshaw does. I know a lot of queens who'd dump a perfectly good guy in a heartbeat if he was designer-illiterate. And let's not even get into Samantha's sex life...

I really hope you're joking there.

, from orsino4

I think so. I made exactly that point this summer in a communication studies class. The most honest, true conversations about race and class I've seen recently are on reality TV.

I'm not buying the "proportionality" argument, either. Producers can make whomever they want Asian, queer, bigoted, whatever. Trust me, we'll NEVER have too many minorities on sit-com television. So why can't we at least pretend that somewhere in Boston a few white people have a black/Asian/Latino/a friend?!?!???

We're going around in circles here, I feel, but again, how do you know that the characters on this show don't? The show hasn't aired yet! Just because they're not featured on the shows webpage doesn't mean they don't exist. I mean, just to use one example, Harry Connick is on a bunch of W&G episodes, but he's not on the show webpage at all.

[ September 30, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Did anyone see tonight's Frasier? Gay, gay, gay. Patrick Stewart even kissed Frasier. On the mouth. The religious right must be having fits. ha ha ha.

Re: TC's comment below. I thought this episode was very funny, but I think the Eric Lutes one was better. This episode was so over-the-top gay, it's like the producers were sending a message to all those people who say TV's become too gay.

Patrick Stewart was a gay character in the movie version of the play Jeffery. He's not afraid to play gay, that's for sure.

[ September 30, 2003, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Makes me wonder about Jean-Luc. He was in a really good gay movie a few years back. The name escapes me. I wonder if Stewart really is gay.

I'm not the only one who hasn't seen the show, though, Jim. So why am I the only one being called out? I'm being a dick about this on purpose because other people here have jumped to judgement and none of them have even been gently chided.

The show demonstrates no visible diversity. Even Greg Hines made it into a few commercials for Will & Grace, after all...

Keep in mind, I'm one of the very few people who's said something nice about the show, too!

As mentioned previously, tonight's Frasier episode was a retread, albeit better done. In one of the early seasons, Eric Lutes (of 'Caroline In The City' fame) played the gay guy smitten with Frasier.

There's the regular cast, and then there are guest stars. Harry Connick, Jr. is considered a guest star, though he's on a lot. It's a recurring role. On "Friends" the woman Ross is currently seeing is black. She's not part of the regular cast, she's probably not on the official show website, she's just a guest star. Does that mean the show has a diverse cast now?

Same for this new show--apparently all the regulars are white. If any diversity (other than the two gay dads) is going to become apparent, it's going to be in the guest stars.

USA Today gave it a pretty good review:

USA Today

I guess this post is taking a major turn of topic. Not sure where I heard it but some comic referred to the WB network as "white boy" network. I remember being at a party where the host criticized 'Friends' for being white-only. Someone responded that there were only white people at that very party. TV can, and should, make the effort for diversity but it is also a reflection of society.

Friends is the wrongest possible example to use! How can a series about young professionals in *NYC* be on for 10 (?) years and have it's first black recurring character in only its last two seasons?!?

In principle, I don't believe we should just throw up our hands and say, "Oh well, TV is just representative of what's in society"

Especially not when OTHER people here have criticized the show for narrowly portaying gay men. They want a broader portrayal. Why didn't anyone sass talk them and say, "Well, affluent gay men do seem to be uptight and/or like Trading Spaces and/or act prissy"?

Let me put a fine point on it: it says something to me that others here who also haven't seen the show can say things like, "I can't wait to hate this piece of crap" because they find the gay characters' apparent prissy-ness abrasive.

In mentioning diversity, I on the other hand have been called to task for jumping to conclusions and for ostensibly having expectations that are too high. Interesting, no?

It think it's funny that a sitcom that hasn't aired yet has generated this long thread! Well, it's on tonight, so we'll see...

I'm falling in the camp of "I'm probably not going to like it", but as long as I get a few laughs out of some good one-liners, I'll watch it if I'm home and there's nothing else on that I'd rather watch.

I still like the idea that we discussed in the New Fall Season thread, that they should have reversed stereotypes and made the straight parents the upper class prissy couple, and the gay guys the blue collar sports fans.

[ October 01, 2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: maxallen ]

The Boston Globe's take on the show is here.

The negative tone of the review starts right in the headline.

B Man, I'm sorry if it seems like I was singling you out--even, though, erm, well [looks sheepish] I was!--but I jumped for the bait because I sensed your "I'm being a dick about this on purpose" position. I mean, I totally agree with most of what you're saying!

And all this hot air--not the least from me--for a show that in all likelyhood sucks and will be gone in about the same amount of time that Some of My Best Friends. The review in the Los Angeles Times this morning was scathing, and since the page on their website won't link, here's the last paragraph: I'll watch tonight not out of gay loyalty (tm George Viking Fan) but because I think John Benjamin Hickey is a hottie.

[ October 01, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Even if I wanted to give this a chance I'll have to miss it tonight. On one TV I'm taping the reruns of Sex and the City on HB02 since I really only started watching it this year and I'm trying to catch up. (Tried to do it last night and later found the TV was set to the wrong channel. D'OH!) On my other TV I'll be watching the season premiere of Smallville.

Entertainment Weekly, in their "What to Watch" section, said: "It's all bad. Yes, all of it."

[ October 01, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Same for Chicago. The city (and the Cook County suburbs) are very diverse overall but very segregated by block or neighborhood. Even some of the \"collar counties\" have sizable, but segregated, Latin and/or Asian communities.

You're probably thinking of To Wong Foo, With Love From Julie Newmar, a Yank knockoff of the Australian dragfest Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

The Real World has such a formulaic casting that cast members now even ask each other, \"Are you the gay one?\" \"So you're the token virgin/minority/redneck?\" I think in response to this, MTV had The Real World: Las Vegas, in which there were no gay characters. Either that, or The Palms didn't want a gay guy fagging up the place. Remember that the cast worked as promoters for The Palms' nightclub.

Thanks for the clarification. It's been a while since I was there; lived for a year between the two and sometimes get them backwards. What's worse is getting the South End and South Boston mixed up! I'll never make THAT mistake again!

Erm, you're probably thinking of Jeffrey; Stewart wasn't in To Wong Foo.
Oooohhh...don't get MarinerDuckBoy started on the lack of Asian men on reality TV; it would take up pages. I think Canmark can write a thesis too!

Not to judge a show before seeing it - much - but the reviews I have seen all look horrible.

Tom Shales of the Washington Post had nothing good to say about it:

I will probably tune in just because of a sense of gay solidarity, but am not hopeful about the show. Apparently the boy's father likes to use a LOT of anti-gay language, including fag and threatening to kick one of the dads "back to fairyland."

Here is the full link to Shales' Review (it's after the "Karen Sisco" review).

Tom Shales' Review of \"It's All Relative\"

The sad thing is this is supposed to be based on "The Birdcage" which, although stereotypical in its portrayal of the main gay couple, had a real heart, even for the beleagured straight couple (although put Nathan Lane, Robin Williams, Gene Hackman and Dianne Wiest in a movie and you really can't go wrong).

Ah, the old "have-your-bigotry-while-appearing-to-be-open minded" ploy. The creators have blasphemously made comparisons to All in the Family, that the dad is the Archie Bunker, a figure ultimately to be looked down on for being a bigot. Problem is, though, the slurs are often remembered more than the inevitable comeuppance.

I know a lot of reviewers were saying really negative things about Queer Eye before the public saw it. I'm going to give this show a shot. If for no other reason, at least they have 2 gay men playing the gay characters and they actually are in a relationship.

CanMark, it's not Asians who are a jinx -- it's Margaret Colin and Jon Cryer. How many failed sitcoms do they have between them? And he's in yet another new one this season (Two and a Half Men).

Those two are like the kiss of death.

Tom Shales only has good things to say about shows after they've been gone for 10 years.

Does that make me a bad Asian for not caring?

Actaully I take a different tack, I take PRIDE in the fact that there are so few Asians on reality TV. Maybe we just have better things to do!

I saw the show tonight and found it to be fairly typical of sitcoms portraying gays. It had all the sterotypical comments you could come up with.
It's one thing for the straight people in the show to be sounding off the slurs, but the gay couple also reinforced the sterotypes at every opportunity.

I guess I will watch it again just to see if it develops past it's initial shock value to grab more viewership.