I'd have thought the story about Shea Hillenbrand saying to Red Sox GM Theo Epstein -- the eloquent "trade me faggot" -- would've been bigger news for two reasons.

First of all, blatant disrespect for a team GM, by a marginal ballplayer, should've been bigger news. Especially since he obviously had been on the trade block for some time.

More interesting is that the Diamondbacks added such a loser to their roster. The D-Backs smugly proclaim about how much they value "character." This doesn't show much positive character from a player who they ridiculously overpaid to get. The D-Backs are fast falling into the toilet and it looks like their "character" directive is being jettisoned.

Two interesting side issues:

1. How will Gracie handle this in the D-Backs lockerroom? Whether he's gay, bi, or just gay-friendly, Mark Grace can't be happy about his new teammate's "character." Grace is very popular with his teammates and I'm hoping he gets carte blanche to handle Hillenbrand as appropriate.

2. Why this particular epithet against Mr. Epstein? I'm wondering: the Boston media: would the "faggot" comment get more attention if the media suspected it were true (that the target of the slur actually is gay) or if it were believed to be untrue?

It'll be interesting to see how -- or if -- this plays out.

Hey CIIT--I've been underground for the last coupla days working...where'd you hear about Shea's comment? Is there an article somewhere? I did hear he was a little brusque with the NY media after the last game in the Yanks/Sox series... was it there?

Thanks bro

Why I read it on the Outsports "Jock Talk" page, that's where: JOCK TALK. Thank you for asking. wink

First I've heard of it. I've scanned the Boston Globe, the Providence Journal and two Red Sox discussion boards, no mention anywhere other than the Boston Herald.

Here's the Herald reference, from yesterday's Inside Track "personality column" -- no doubt the sports guys didn't want to touch it. Scroll down to Hot corner chutzpa. The date of the interview isn't specified.

Makes me wonder if Epstein's face-to-face with Hillenbrand in Toronto was more than just a gentlemanly farewell.

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[ June 02, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

Well, there is now dispute over whether he said "faggot" or "f**ker."

Check out our update.

We will contact the station and see what we can find.

I never liked Hillenbrand, but he is moving up in the world since he is no longer with the Red Sucks!

Regardless of whether he said po-TAY-to or po-TAH-to, I'm still surprised it's not getting more attention. Again, whichever word, it's blatant disrespect of management by a marginal player. If this had been Carl Everett, to name one example, it would've been the only topic of discussion in the Boston sports media.

And - I still wonder what happened with the D-Backs wanting to acquire "character" players. Again, regardless of word choice, Hillenbrand's lacking in character.

But the more I think about this, the "f*cker" bleep is sounding like a cover story. In light of John Rocker and Todd Jones and "I don't want to answer any gay questions," baseball may be sensitive to a homophobia scandal. So their cover story is the bleeping of a different two-syllable f-word that would ordinarily require bleeping (and which won't have anyone raising eyebrows about the GM).

But since this is radio ... and there's probably no tape record of his actual words ... we'll probably never know for sure which word it was. We do know plenty, though, about Hillenbrand's character.

[ May 31, 2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

Oh, I don't know, CitT. If he'd said "f**ker" facetiously, I personally wouldn't take it as a big deal.

Dude, I was thinking the same thing.
Then again, some players, like Everett, just have that "tag" of troublemaker attached to them, wherever they go and whatever they say. So maybe a "good guy" like Hillenbrand gets a pass??

[ June 03, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

The item in the Boston Herald clearly states that he said "faggot" and when asked for comment, the radio host merely said that "it was said in jest." So it seems to me that he said "faggot." Wouldn't the radio guy correct the Herald reporter if Hillenbrand said otherwise?

Hours later... wink

Okay, I've read this again...

Okay, so which one is "the Hillman"--Hill the radio guy or Hillenbrand?

[ May 31, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Joe, it's Greg Hill (be sure to scroll down), the "radio personality" for a local heavy metal/shock jock station competing for the 18-34 male demographic. Their former morning team was fired for faking an April 1st news report that Boston mayor Tom Menino had died. I understand they've now gone national... Opie & Anthony? Anyway, it shows the level of cultural sensitivity this station strives for. Hillenbrand had been doing a weekly sports report for them.

[ June 01, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

Then I think it's safe to say that Hillenbrand did indeed call Epstein a faggot. Oh well, he's off to Arizona now. Break a leg, Shea. Literally.

what an insanely stupid comment from hillenbrand.

i'm with joe here. break your f**kin' leg, shea.

Well, I stand corrected. Digging further into the local discussion boards, it's clear that the word Hillenbrand used was "faggot".


Again, the question: Why has this not been mentioned in the sports media?

[ June 02, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

Hillenbrand's a piss-ant, aside from being a homophobic twit.

If you've got a few minutes read this thread from the Sons of Sam Horn discussion board, the home of the most knowledgeable, funny, and (generally) grownup fans of any Red Sox board. Few hold Hillenbrand in high regard.

I think people are getting too worked up over this. It's one thing to call somebody you know to be gay a faggot, but just using it in some sort of abstract way isn't necessarily insulting to all gays. There are people on this board I would probably call faggot, but not because they're gay. It's just I think they're complete pricks. At any rate, there's a joking way to use the word. I certainly don't think anyone should be punished just for using the word. Plus he was on the radio, and people (especially athletes) always say stupid things on the radio. But I don't think you can pull any political or personal views out of it.

The biggest complaint I would have is it's just not a polite thing to say, any more than bitch or something like that. Or f&$*er, which is the other word people thought he might have used. I think generally people just need to calm down and quit whining about stuff like that.

There's nothing "abstract" about using a word linked to a specific group -- one that reinforces bashing, contempt, etc. What if Hillenbrand had said "Trade me [insert religious/ethnic/racial slur here]"??

If one means "prick" or "ass****," use those words. They are individual-based.

I think faggot has become less attached to gays per se. It's just undesirable in general. I don't think Hillenbrand was accusing Theo of actually being gay. He was just using a slang that I don't think has as much specific context as some people make it out to. I certainly don't equate faggot with ethnic slurs, etc. If Hill had said, "Trade me, n*$&#@" he would have gotten into much worse trouble, because it is a much worse thing to say, more rooted in history and atrocities. Faggot just doesn't have that sort of baggage, and I think thus has less context and is not inherently insulting.

No, that's just the excuse they come up with now. See, instead of sitting back and taking the abuse we're standing up to them. So now they say, "Oh, I didn't mean it THAT way." Lying bigots is what they are.

I'm starting to see this weird trend on the board where everybody who disagrees with the little in crowd is a liar. Sort of strange.

William,
I suppose its good for you that you aren't offended by use of the word 'faggot'. However, to say that 'faggot' is simply insulting in general, completely ignores the roots of the epithet. 'Faggot' like all slurs evolved as an insult because it describes a dehumanization and demotion of someone gay. That is the root of the insult and it can never change. Some may forget or lose track maybe even all of society, but the root meaning, that being gay is a bad thing, will always be there.

In this case, it was obviously meant as an insult to Theo Epstein. Nor do I think you can make the same argument about Hillenbrand saying his personal charity is "Help the Homos". You may not be offended by that, but please allow me to be.

No one in this thread has called you a liar.

Refusing to see an obvious insult and slur for what it is just seems blinkered. A quality I often associate with gay conservatives who claim to be socially progressive, yet defend bigots.

William, I usually agree with your comments, but on this issue we must part company. All I can say is when my queer friends and I refer to each other as "faggot" it doesn't offend me. When my straight friends use the word "faggot" in casual conversation, or in an offhand comment, or attempt at humor, it doesn't offend me. However, when a straight man uses the word in anger, as a personalized descriptive, as a dismissive putdown, yes, it does offend me. Very often a dry reading of a transcript does not convey the intent of the words very well. In this case, I think any objective examination of the words and the context in which they were being uttered, reveals malicious intent, and no gay man - no matter his political beliefs - serves himself or his gay brothers well by assuming the role of apologist for a homophobe.

I don't claim to be "socially progressive," whatever that means.

[ June 03, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

I'm not apologizing for Hillenbrand - I don't think it was a nice thing to say. But I don't think his end game was to lash out at gays. I think you're all overestimating how much thought went into the statement. I don't think he's a "homophobe." It's weird, usually conservatives are the ones criticized for looking at things in black and white, but that's exactly what you guys are doing here. Shea=bad, end of discussion. I just don't happen to see it that way.

[ June 03, 2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

When Shea said it, I really believe he meant it as an insult. In my personal view, there is no way to say it and not mean it as an insult.

I know this is a bit off the subject, but I was in a store over the weekend and this girl (late teens early 20's) was with her friends. She held a blouse up to herself and said, "Does this look cute, or does it look GAY?" I couldn't help it, I just turned toward her and her friends and said, "By looking 'Gay', what exactly are you saying? I'm gay and I'd like to know what you're trying to say." Her friends were just looking at me with a confused look and she just put her head down. I'm not sure if she was embarrassed but I really wanted to know what that meant. I had the time, so I waited for an answer. They all just stood there in silence and were staring at the floor. I was tired of waiting so I just said, "I suggest you not use words if you don't know what they mean." And I walked away. I know that they knew what she was trying to say, when she referred to something as "Gay". It was meant as something negative. I just wanted her to say it and she couldn't do it.

Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is, no matter how far we've come as a community, we are not only still a far way from being accepted as GLB or T. Terms of who we are as people are being used to discribe something, someone or a situation as weak, grotesque and undesirable.

I'd like to think of myself as a nice and approachable person, but if anyone gay or straight were to call me a faggot, they'd better be prepared to be called on the carpet. I just can't see that word being anything except mean spirited.

BTW, he did say "faggot," not "f**ker." We are correcting it.

The story and Outsports got more play in the Herald today.

Read what a Red Sox message board is saying.

W1865:
Usually I'm the Army of One on this Board when it comes to anything with political overtones, especially anything that smacks of "PC" and the need to be "sensitive." But I'm bringing some of the rope to this particular lynching party.

Hillenbrand wanted to be traded to the place he was buying property: the metropolitan Phoenix area. The trade is taking forever. So what's he do, to express his anger and hopefully move things forward? Calls the GM "faggot."

Not only did he use an anti-gay slur -- offensive in itself -- but he thought that the nastiest insult he could level at Theo Epstein was to call into question his sexuality and label him homosexual. Double plus ungood, in my book, So Hillenbrand thinks that the vilest accusation he can level at someone is not "thief" or "liar" or "Clinton voter," it's homosexual. And he uses the slur "faggot" to hammer home the point.

No one's suggesting Hillenbrand be banned from the game (at least, I hope no one seriously is) ... but we clearly have sufficient evidence to label Hillebrand a no-class idiot of the first degree. And we're free to now hold a very low opinion of him. And you're free to dissent.

Special aside to Jorel: regarding the use of the word "gay" by the girl in the store. Kids today use the word "gay" in the same way that My Generation used the word "lame." Just like they use "gay" on "South Park." It means boring, or dull. Don't know how that happened but, then again, how did a word that meant "cheerful" or "happy" end up being synonymous with homosexual? Idioms are strange bird. Her use of the word "gay" had nothing to do with sexuality or homosexuality. And she was probably confused that someone would equate her use of "gay" with sexual orientation. Just I like if I called someone "lame," I'd be momentarily confused if someone thought I meant he was gimpy.

[ June 03, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

[quote]William1865:
[quote]I don't claim to be \"socially progressive,\" whatever that means. [/quote]I *was* needlessly vague.... It could mean that one withholds support from people (an overrated ballplayer or Senator Santorum) who shit on entire segments of the population. Even if you need the self-interest of being among the shittees.

Ditto CITT's observation on gay = lame (tho it still makes me a tad queasy).

[ June 03, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Bill W ]

Jim:

Thanks for posting the link to the Red Sox messageboard. Surprisingly enlightened discussion there ... and a lot of the talk (or type, as the case may be) is focused on the fact that (1) Boston media ignored the story, (2) Shea is white and popular with the Boston media, and (3) no way the Boston media overlooks the insult hurled at the GM if Hillenbrand were a minority (as stupid white guy on 'roids is not a protected class under the law).

No way Manny Ramirez or Pedro Martinez would be given a free ride for such a remark.

Media Alert
Dee White, who moderates the Outsports message board, will discuss Hillenbrand using "faggot" on WAAF/107.3 FM in Boston, Wednesday at 8 a.m.

[ June 03, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Jim at Outsports ]

Thanks for the explanation, Charlie in the Trees. I think the term gay (referring to a homosexual person) relates to "Happy" and "Cheerful" by way of the old sereotype of feminine men fluttering around on their toes with high pitched laughs and always acting a little too "Happy" and "Cheerful".

I've actually had two other experiences where this term was used in a social setting. I really think that being gay is still looked down upon by much of society and the term "Gay" is now used when trying to describe something undesirable, just like actual gay people. Almost the way the term "Uncle Tom". He's actually a real person (in a story) but because of the way some people view him and the way he lived his life, they refer to anyone who acts like him or does something similar to what he did as an "Uncle Tom". I'm not saying that I'm sure about it but I will continue to question people about it if I hear them use the term around me. I apologize to everyone for taking up space in this thread with this subject Thanks again for the explanation.

There's a story on Outsports about a similar situation in major league ball about two years ago.

Cubs pitcher Julian Tavarez (since traded to the Marlins and now with the Pirates*) was booed by Giants fans during a game at PacBell. Asked about the incident, Tavarez replied "Why should I care about the fans? They're a bunch of ass****s and faggots here." Pressured by the media, by the Giants organization and by his manager, Don Baylor, he apologized the next day, paid a five-figure fine and was assigned to "sensitivity training".

What's different here is that Hillenbrand called his boss a faggot, not the fans -- but it's still offensive. Is a similar punishment appropriate for him, do you think? What do we fags want, anyway??

* In another baseball irony, the Red Sox are starting Interleague play tonight -- in Pittsburgh! eek! (If the game ever gets started... why didn't they weatherproof PNC Park? )


(Jorel buddy, no apology necessary, you raise an important issue.)

[ June 03, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

yea well i heard the comments when it happened and it was said as a joke there was no malice in the comment if you listened to the radio program as do many straight and gay people do you would under stand the circmstances that preceded it.Shea was a regular guest on the show he called in every week to give updates and they all joked constantly about trade talks involving Shea and he was having a couple of good weeks and they started razzing him about the trade talks so he jokingly said "trade me now faggot" Now I just don't understand why anyone is making a big deal about it, especially since it happened over a week ago. Nobody is talking about how he called in the morning after being traded and explained how Theo Epstein told him personally and even told him he didn't take any offense from the comment.

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO SPELLS AND WRITES WORSE THAN ME!

[ June 03, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

gee all the possible things you could say to defend your community and all you can say is you can say is you can spell and write better, ok and you think Shea is a problem, get a clue

[ June 03, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

Dear Straight:
Why do I think your reaction would be different if he said "trade me, kike."

I am not jewish i'm irish and in this day and age of thin skinned people i find it is much easier to take all insults with a grain of salt, this world is filled with worse people than Shea and if I thought for 1 minute the comments he made were meant to offend any body straight or gay I would support the Gay community but I think some people in the Gay community use people like Shea who make silly comments to bring attention to them selves because they need to have the lights and camera's on them and they don't care who get's hurt. I'll agree that he used poor judgement in his comments but as I stated in an earlier post the comment was made during a bit about him being traded and he was getting sick of hearing them all the time especially since he was doing really well lately.

[quote]straight in mass:
[QUOTE] I think some people in the Gay community use people like Shea who make silly comments to bring attention to them selves because they need to have the lights and camera's on them and they don't care who get's hurt. [/quote]Is my spelling really this bad guys? YIKES, no wonder the big dig is going so poorly up there... unionized labor at it's finest!

I'm sure you man shae is a wonderful guy... However, some folks dont like that word, faggot. Yes, it is offensive.

I could really care less what shae says or does, .. more than likely this man is an uneducated bafoon. He's simply paid big bucks to play a game. His political beliefs/religious beliefs or what his favorite color is dont effect me either way. All the man needs to do is go out and hit the ball, and that he doesnt do well from what i hear.

Whenever you use an offensive word... like it or not, the focus groups are going to get you. Shea should understand that he's on the air and his little locker room talk should not be used there...

I use nasty words all the time, however, i'm not stupid enough to get on tv and do it. Then expect that there wont be anyone pissed off at me.

PS Maybe Shea has a chance to win now that he's outta the cursed city of boston.

well at least we agree on one thing NO PLAYER WILL EVER GET A WORLD SERIES RING WHILE PLAYING IN BOSTON

[ June 03, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

Oh great, yet another straight person who only learns of the existence of Outsports after a fellow breeder makes an anti-gay remark, and feels the need to come to this board and defend bigotry. Enough already.

From reading the comments on the Red Sox discussion board (among presumably predominantly straight people) it is clear that Shea Hillenbrand is a jackass and deserves NO defense from you or anyone else. He deserves every piece of shit that's thrown his way until he sincerely apologizes. Whether he meant to offend anyone or not, he DID. "Faggot" is NOT a "silly comment." It's a SLUR.
Why would these circumstances make using a SLUR acceptable? He can be a pinhead all he wants on a stupid morning rado show, like so many others, and NOT use slurs.

well i was wondering just how long it would take for a moron like your self to get you panties in a bind, why can't you just accept that not every one agrees with your life style just as not every one agrees with mine there are plenty of other things in this world to be upset about. Christ this is why I wish saddam would just drop a bomb on the stupid little shit hole of a country. there are just to many idiots breathing and to many good people dying

[ June 03, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

Gentlemen, refrain from any further personal comments.

my apologies

well it was interesting chatting with some of you tonight but I must get some sleep. peace to all

Why the need to be so concerned with someone else's lifestyle??? Isnt this the reasoning behind JIHAD Are we all gonna be killing each other in the name of our own personal choice of "GOD".

When the word "Faggot" is used, it most likely implies a Gay, Weak, and Dirty person. A straight person has no business using this term, especially when refering to another straight person as an insult. If you are not part of the minority that you are speaking about, you have no idea how the perspective is from the other side.

Well guys, Straight in Mass is being honest, and seems not to hold a generalized rancor toward gay folks. He just hasn't had the opportunity to learn why, if a straight guy doesn't feel his guts tighten up when he hears "faggot" used to offend, a gay guy would react that way. That's what alot of this flap is all about. So here's his opportunity, let's be decent to the straight boy... this time.

Straight in Mass, thanks for your point of view!

[ June 03, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

You go Dee! Show us proud!

Exactly.

And, at the risk of sounding like a tree hugger, it's not our age group that remarks like the blockhead Shea's has an impact on, really, it's the 12-year old gay boy in a small town in Mass. who hears that word from Hillenbrand, knows it applies to his gay-boy-in-training and thus has the negativity associated with being gay in this society reinforced. For me, every time I heard anti-gay remarks as a kid, it was like a stake through the heart. It just annoys me now--I'm a butch sports fan after all--but man is it f**king tiring to have to fight these same battles over and over and over and.... For example:
So this fenderhead insults an entire group of people and he's the victim? The f**k? And right, we gays are just such media ho's, we're praying that some celebrity makes a stupid remark so we can get on the 10 o'clock news! Or the 8:00 am radio show, as it were!

[ June 04, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]