NEW YORK (AP) - The busy New York Mets made another deal Sunday, trading outfielder Tsuyoshi Shinjo and infielder Desi Relaford to the
San Francisco Giants for pitcher Shawn Estes.

Shinjo and Relaford both were nice surprises for the Mets in 2001, but the opportunity to trade them for a proven starting pitcher was
too good to pass up.

Estes was 9-8 with a 4.02 ERA in 27 starts for the Giants. The 28-year-old lefty was an All-Star in 1997 when he won 19 games, and has averaged 29 starts the last five seasons.

Estes was 64-50 with a 4.25 ERA in 160 career starts.

"This was a tough thing for us to do, considering what Shawn ha meant to this organization over the years," Giants general manager Brian Sabean said.

Coming off a World Series appearance in 2000, the Mets struggled to an 82-80 mark that left them third in the NL East. General manager Steve Phillips promised changes in the offseason and has made good on his word.

As much as I like Shinjo and Relaford, this is a GOOD DEAL for the Mets. This is an absolute steal for the Mets and frees Phillips to move someone like Appier or Rusch(hope not, I like him) or the young Chen.

A lefty hitter(outfielder) is what the Mets need now. Mets are loaded with righties; Cedeno is a switch-hitter. If Mets can't sign Juan Gone, I'd love to have Bobby Higginson.

Cedeno, Fonzie, Alomar, Piazza, Ordonez, Timo or Payton, Zeile, Higgy or Gonzo..

Now if Steve Phillips can find a way to deal hottie Toddie Zeile, he'll be the GM of the Year!

Trader Phillips strikes again. Mets have seven starting pitchers including Dicky Gonzalez. I'm kind of so-so about this trade. Did we need another lefty starter tzeile29? We have four now. I really think Glendon Rusch is gone. But for what. I am gonna miss Shinjo. What an icredible defensive centerfielder. Because of all the outfield movement it appears Phillips is setting us up for Juan Gone.

I bet Phillips offered Jay Payton instead of Shinjo but the Giants said no. Teams just don't want to take a chance with Payton's disability history.

[quote]Originally posted by amazin12:
Did we need another lefty starter tzeile29? We have four now. I really think Glendon Rusch is gone.

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Amazin, among the southpaws, I can only trust Al Leiter. Rusch is erratic and inconsistent; Chen is a neophyte.

I want Appier out. He's getting 10 million per year. We can use the $$$$ to sign Gonzo.

ESTES LAST FOUR YEARS (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001)

Home: 29 W, 14 L, 3.23 ERA, 370 IP, 1.70 K/BB ratio
Road: 13 W, 23 L, 6.04 ERA, 332 IP, 1.05 K/BB ratio

He's a potential ace or number 2 pitcher.

Just to check if the Giants were complete suckers, let's hope Phillips offered that black hole of the #8 spot, Rey Ordonez, along with Payton initially. But you just can't expect a baseball exec to be able to hang on to the better AND cheaper alternative *sigh*.

Yes, Appier makes the most $ense to dangle... I hope Estes sticks, cuz I'd love to see a former 19-game winner who is *so* damn cute (and a Guided by Voices fan) get a chance to regain his form in Flushing!

Well, I'm personally going to miss Shawn Estes. He is so cute, one of my Giants fantasies. But, he was a major weakness for the Giants last season. Blew several very important games and never fully recovered from his ankle injury. I think the Giants got the best end of this deal. But, the Giants really should begin an all out search for a replacement lefty. Any suggestions?

This will put Shawn Estes a little bit closer, geographically, to his lover Billy Mueller!

[quote]Originally posted by billsf:
I think the Giants got the best end of this deal.

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Actually, Mets got the best end of this deal. Not a good deal, but a GREAT DEAL. A solid, former All-star pitcher for 2 players who probably won't start for the Mets is a huge bargain.

Shinjo played exceptionally well and hit .267 with 10 home runs and 56 RBIs in 123 games for the Mets.

Desi hit .302 with eight home runs and 36 RBIs in 301 at-bats over 120 games.

Oh yeah, Shawn Estes is pretty hot. Poor Billsf!

Estes was 9-8 with a 4.02 ERA in 27 starts for the Giants. The 28-year-old lefty was an All-Star in 1997 when he won 19 games, and has averaged 29 starts the last five seasons.

Estes was 64-50 with a 4.25 ERA in 160 career starts

*edited to fix code*

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: tzeile29 ]

As much as I hate to see Shawn go (I'm in all-black today), it might be the best thing for him. His performance has been spotty at best in the last couple of seasons. He's even admitted it. Not like he could really DENY it, I guess.

I hope he gets back into his groove and does well for the Mets. And I certainly hope Brian Sabean has built a better Giants defense.

Now if Estes and Mike Piazza can just end up falling in love during Spring Training . . .

I don't think Shinjo should be considered a non-starter. I think he would have been an everyday centerfielder this coming season if only the Mets could finally for heaven sakes unload Jay Payton. But nobody wants him. I don't think Bobby Valentine deep down liked this trade. He loves Japanese players and he helped bring Shinjo here. And he despises Jay Payton.

Come to think of it. I don't like this trade. I foresee Shinjo and Relaford haunting the Mets.

I gotta disagree, Amazin, I think this will turn out to be a great trade for the Mets....in fact, I think the Mets should attempt to trade for Billy Mueller from the Cubs (since Alfonzo has already started griping and whining about his swith from 2B to 3B) and having Shawn and Billy back together will do wonders for Estes' pitching performance (note his success in SF during the games that Mueller was in the lineup as detailed on the website noted below)....I've always been a big fan of Estes since he went 19-5 in 1997 (his first full season in the majors) and with the right support (i.e., Valentine AND Mueller) he can be a definite 20 game winner....for those who may have forgotten, the CLOSE friendship between Shawn and Billy is detailed on the following website (including several VERY interesting comments made by both on a local radio show, in a SF Chronicle newspaper interview, and from then Giant CF Darryl Hamilton).

Shawn Estes and Billy Mueller website

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: gamecock ]

The Mets have Alomar for 2nd and Edgardo Alfonso for 3rd. Where would they play Mueller?

I was suggesting they package Alfonzo (who Mueller is at least equal to defensively) and based upon Edgardo's mediocre offensive numbers in 2001 I think exchanging Alfonzo for Mueller would NOT be a liability for the Mets....also, since the Mets have now been stockpiling starting pitching (especially lefties, which Chicago needs) they could make this a multi-player deal and throw in Appier or Rusch along with Alfonzo for one of the Cubs OF's (such as Michael Tucker) and Mueller....this is assuming that Sosa is not available

~Joe

[quote]Originally posted by gamecock:
(since Alfonzo has already started griping and whining about his swith from 2B to 3B)

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I gotta disagree. Fonzie is not whining about his switch. Sure he's not exicted about it, but who would?

Fonzie told Valentine that he's excited to have Alomar; he's a team player and I don't see any problem Fonzie going back to 3B.

Trading Fonzie would be a huge mistake(unless it's for Gonzo, but still). He's in his walk-off year and I expect a banner year from Fonzie.

What the Mets should do right now is to sign Fonzie for an extension. RIGHT NOW!


[quote] they could make this a multi-player deal and throw in Appier or Rusch along with Alfonzo for one of the Cubs OF's (such as Michael Tucker) and Mueller....this is assuming that Sosa is not available

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Mets would probably trade Appier or Rusch or Chen, but I doubt if they'll include Fonzie. Mets' outfield is pretty average(average offense and lame defense). I'd love to have Gonzo, Giles, Sheffield or Higgy(good hitter with some pop).

The Mets could use Billy Mueller as just a "fluffer" for Shawn Estes. If necessary, they could just play him on third in the games Shawn pitches. It would be so cute, Shawn and Billy back together again!

In today's Chronicle, Gwen Knapp summed up quite well the Bay Area's mixed emotions about losing Estes:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...2/18/SP4076.DTL

[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: da big man ]

Gamecock, Alfonzo has been a near-All-Star caliber infielder for several years. Even after his biggest off-year, to compare him with a declining journeyman like Billy Mueller... that's bananas.

The Mets' major lineup hole is still that their 7-8-9 slots -- the injury-prone deadweight of Payton, followed by the worst batsman in the majors (Rey) and a bad-hitting pitching corps -- are probably the most punchless in the league. Still, I think they've passed Atlanta if they open the season with this roster.

Edgardo Alfonzo was hurting just about all of the 2000 season. Based on his prior accomplishments I would still consider him as untouchable on the Mets. And if Steve Phillips ever traded him for Mueller noodles, I 'll eat a cow's brain like they did on "Survivor".

And also Shawn Estes is not that huge a star to justify Phillips creating a trade to get his "buddy" to play with him.

Correction: Alfonzo in 2001 was the season I was referring to.

Benny Agbayani agreed to a $600,000, one-year deal with the Mets. That's good... I'm convinced the Mets can't win a pennant without at least one Hawaiian on the roster.

And I think this means Payton could be gone!

How can Payton be gone? Right now he's their only centerfielder. I don't think Agbayani's signing affects Payton. But again I would've loved Payton and not Shinjo get dealt to San Fran.

Although Shinjo and Lawton have been traded this off-season, remember that the Mets signed free agent Roger Cedeno earlier this month....I assume that Cedeno and Payton will both "platoon" in centerfield assuming that Phillips (who is finally starting to look like a competent GM with his off season manuevers) signs or trades for another starting OF (Gonzalez, Higginson, Damon?).

Bill W., as for the Alfonzo vs. Mueller discussion, while I agree that over their entire six year careers (both came to the majors in '96) Alfonzo's offensive numbers have far surpassed Mueller's, Edgardo's "slump" in 2001 measured against Billy's numbers with the Cubs merit further consideration....Mueller only accumulated 210 AB's last season (in 70 games prior to his season-ending injury in St. Louis) during which he hit .295 with a modest 6 HR and 23 RBI while Alfonzo in 457 AB's hit .243 with 17 HR's and 49 RBI's while appearing in all but 48 of the Mets games....admittedly based upon 2000 and 1999 numbers when Alfonzo averaged .314 with 26 HR and 101 RBI as compared with Mueller's .279 batting average with a career high 10 HR and 59 RBI then it's a "no brainer" in terms of offensive production -- one of the key issues remains whether or not Alfonzo's decline last season is viewed by management as an aberration or perhaps Edgardo has become complacent after signing the big contract....the larger issue that I was raising is the positive impact that Mueller would have upon Estes' performance (arguably the Mets #2 starter behind Leiter) which became apparent during Shawn's "roller-coaster" career with the Giants....in addition, since the Mets obviously have another hole or two to fill (i.e., outfield and bullpen help) and have an abundance of starters (particularly lefties) it might make sense for Phillips to consider packaging Chen, Rusch, or Appier in a multi-player deal that would serve their needs.

This, of course, is assuming baseball will be played in 2002 unless Selig figures out another way to completely screw up this once great game that he is single-handedly dismantling before our eyes.

~Joe

[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: gamecock ]

I thought I had read somewhere the Mets were also looking into bringing Gabe Kapler to NY. Him and bobby higginson patroling the outfield would be enough to distract me from Todd Zeile, occassionally anyway!

Roger Cedeno is not a centerfielder.

amazin, although Cedeno did not play much CF in Detroit this past season (and was primarily a RF with the Mets in 1999), as a part-time player with the Dodgers from 1996-98 he played center more than either of the other two outfield positions:
'96 in LA: 20 LF, 50 CF, 4 RF
'97 in LA: 13 LF, 55 CF, 4 RF
'98 in LA: 45 LF, 29 CF, 10 RF
'99 in NY: 13 LF, 21 CF, 127 RF
'00 in HOU: 23 LF, 29 CF, 17 RF

Cedeno also seems to have plenty of speed to patrol CF and with the possible exception of Payton probably is faster than any other player on the Mets roster now (he is still only 27 years old despite changing teams for the fourth time).

~Joe

I can't argue with your numbers. But Cedeno is not known for a great glove. They always say you have to be strong up the middle to go all the way. I just don't think Bobby V would consider him as a regular centerfielder. I would feel uncomfortable if he became the everyday CF or if he platooned, as you mentioned, with Payton. I guess you would suggest Cedeno would move to a corner position when a lefty pitches. I think eiher Payton, Timo Perez or a newly acquired CF are better options for that position.

I wish it were Cedeno-Shinjo-Gonzalez left to right. Too late for that to happen.

[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: amazin12 ]

I am expecting (or hoping) Payton will be moved... It's true that Cedeno has a poor defensive rep; maybe they can snap up a late-inning sub CF somewhere, or just use Super Joe McEwing!

Alfonzo is a star player under 30. Assuming he reports to Florida in shape, the smart money is on him to rebound. And much as I lust for Shawnie, he'd have to be coming off a Cy Young season to justify trading for an aging part-time 'buddy.'

The latest rumored Met quarry is Mo Vaughn. I'm wary; too old, and coming off a full year on the shelf.

[quote]Originally posted by Bill W:
The latest rumored Met quarry is Mo Vaughn. I'm wary; too old, and coming off a full year on the shelf.

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And too FAT! At 6' 1'', 275 lbs, that's pure fat.

No to MO!~ I'd rather spend the precious $$$ on Gonzo, Sheff or Higgy.

Several papers are reporting that the Mets would include Appier in any deal for Vaughn. Please say it ain't so. I just don't understand this love affair the Mets have with Vaughn. He's been out of action for a year, and is so huge that when he does play, he has no mobility. This is someone they want to be an everyday player? Can they please just sign Gonzo and be done with it. And as far as Appier goes, with any sort of run support last year, he probably would have won 16 or 17 games.

As Angels fan, I'd love for the Mets to take the fat tub o' goo that is Mo Vaughn off of the Mouse's hands. It's the Indian Burial Ground Curse, of course, but Mo's been a total stiff for the Angels. Problem is that as soon as Appier hits spring training with the Angels, he'll develop rotator cuff problems or something; the Angels have an appalling record of signing pitchers for big contracts and having them pitch 12 innings for them before retiring with arm problems. I wish this was the Appier of 1993 ago we were talking about.......

[quote]Originally posted by jerseyguy:
I just don't understand this love affair the Mets have with Vaughn. He's been out of action for a year, and is so huge that when he does play, he has no mobility. This is someone they want to be an everyday player?

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I don't understand the love affair that
anybody has with Mo Vaughn. From the way some Red Sox fans talk about Mo, you'd think he's some otherworldly combination of Barry Bonds on the field and Joe Torre in the clubhouse. Besides the obvious fact that the man is horrendously out of shape, he could NEVER throw! He had a lousy arm! Not that the 1st baseman is involved in a whole lot of defensive plays, but with Mo at the position, you can forget all hopes of 3-6-3 and 3-2-3 DPs, or any throw out at home for that matter. As for clubhouse leadership, spare me. A former co-worker (good college player) worked at Mo's hitting camp and reported that all Mo did was hang out with his posse and act like a total a**hole the whole time, unless of course the cameras were around. Then he'd be a paragon of selfless devotion to the kids.

This has gotta be a mistake for the Mets. Maybe there's something wrong with Appier that they're just not letting on. Whatever it is, it's gotta be something awful to take on Vaughn!

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: BoSoxRudy ]

[quote]Originally posted by BoSoxRudy:
This has gotta be a mistake for the Mets. Maybe there's something wrong with Appier that they're just not letting on. Whatever it is, it's gotta be something awful to take on Vaughn!

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Whoa! Mets acquire former MVP now bordering on obesity, MO Vaughn for Mets' number two pitcher Kevin Appier. That leaves the Mets with four southpaws--Al Leiter, Shawn Estes, Glendon Rusch and Bruce Chen. The ONLY righty is Steve Trachsel. What a dicey rotation. Unless Mets trade Rusch or Chen for another pitcher, this is a bad deal...I would've loved to have Aaron Sele, but the Angels signed him to a 3 year deal.

With the acquisition of Alomar, Cedeno, and Vaughn, Mets have successfully upgraded its putrid offense, but have weakened its rotation.

Implications of MO-Appier trade:

1. Scary pitching rotation.

2. Mo plays 1B. Zeile will probably play outfield or worse ride the bench(making him the most expensive bench player---but the hottest and most handsome .

3. Mike Piazza will catch for another 3 years.

4. Mets won't probably sign Gonzo.

5. Another Texas Rangers--All hitting with no pitching...HEAVENS!

Mets get Vaughn from Angels for Appier