To determine how we feel about Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame. Inspired by last night's ESPN "Pete Rose on Trial". I didn't see the show, but saw clips on Sportscenter.

True Grit: Pete Rose! (Hey, I grew up with the Big Red Machine!)

Isn't Rose's ban a "lifetime" one? If so, I wouldn't have a problem with him being elected posthumously.

Well so far I see I'm with the (slight) majority-He bet on baseball,and he should and will be in the HOF.
Maybe it's just the gambler in me,but as long as he didn't bet AGAINST the Reds,I just don't see it as any big deal. :confused: Some sportswriters
seem to want to intimate that the Hall is a paragon of virtue,but I don't think that's ever been the case. Based on what he did on the Field,
I think Charley Hustle epitomizes what the HOF is all about.Any extra-curricular activity just doesn't diminish the stature of his game,imho.

[ July 18, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Tim ]

Pete Rose was a Great baseball player. Growing up in the Cincinnati area....and for most people here...Pete Rose = Baseball.....(Honestly, in my opinion he's white trast, but he could play ball) The Hall of Fame is definetly not a paragon of virtue as most of us know. However, what Pete did/was doing was compromising the integrity of the game. Whether he bet FOR (which the Dowd report shows), or AGAINST his team does not matter....it's the fact that he bet. (Just an example) If you recall...the year in question, for which the betting slips were found, was the year that Danny Jackson went 23-8 with 15 complete games....he won a total of 52 games over the next 10 years with only 9 games....I wonder how many of those games Pete Rose left him in for "another inning" to try & preserve that win, rather than going with a closer? Did he make a risky decision with the game on the line that he may not have taken a chance with normally if there wasn't any $ on the table? Who knows? Only Pete does & according to him he NEVER bet on baseball (even though the betting slips had his prints all over them) Everyone knows that plays organized ball that betting will not be tolerated. This is a topic that I could talk for days on.....I don't disagree with anyone about his abilities on the field.....the stats prove his worth to the sport, but he is not bigger than the game, which sadly his ego thought was above the game. Go to Cooperstown, for those who have not been there....his name, pictures and his memorabelia are all over the place there...he just does not have that coveted Plaque in the Hall.

I know *I* haven't read the Dowd Report, but this summary by Derek Zumsteg is pretty damning of Rose.

If Pete Rose had never gambled, I would agree he's a Hall of Famer -- but not an upper-echelon one. His period of sustained excellence was only around 1968-76. e hung on past his usefulness on the field to break the career hit record, i.e. he's most celebrated for being a "compiler." I think among the best players ever, he ranks approximately between #100 and 150.

So far, all our voters agree he bet on baseball. That is the #1 Rule of MLB. He should never go in the HOF, any more than Joe Jackson should.

I say this with love: this is why you stat-geek types are so addle-brained sometimes. Around these parts Pete Rove is celebrated for being an integral part of the Phillies' only world championship in 1980. His stats didn't matter that much that year. It was his attitude that helped push the team over the top.

By the way, except for 1980 he hit over .300 every year from 1977 through 1981.

That's where you stat-ignorers irk me. Attitude can help in minor ways. Performance is what wins. Tone down the violins! Kirk Gibson is not making the Hall no matter how inspirational he was in '84 or '88.

You wanna call me a "stat geek" in South Philly sometime? (assumes stance) wink

Any Hall of Fame that does not include the record holder of one of their major categories is a joke! Pete Rose bet on baseball as a manager, not as a player. He was a mediocre manager, but he is a Hall of Fame player. The Hall of Fame should be used to glorify the game and promote it not to be a punishment! OJ Simpson is still in the football Hall of Fame and he murdered 2 people in cold blood (allegedly). His actions off the field after he retired 'as a player' did not erase his accomplishments on the field. Kirby Puckett was just exposed as wife beater and an adulterer. Do you think he would have been a first ballot HOFer if those facts were known. Also, any hall that has to rely on sportswriters to be admitted is flawed. Some of the sportswriters only see a few of the players that they have to vote on a few times in their career. How can you make a determination on that. Also, you have the holier than though sportswriters who will say that a player is a certain Hall Of Famer, but not on his first ballot :mad: That is the most absurd thing that I ever heard. If a person belongs in the Hall of Fame, he belongs in the Hall of Fame. On the point that Pete Rose should not be eligible for the Hall of Fame because he has not admitted to betting on baseball and he has not apologized, well, I have never seen a written apology from Ty Cobb or Tris Speaker for being racist. Where is the apology from Babe Ruth for being a womanizer and heavy drinker? Also, there was a major allegations in baseball in the 20's about Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker being involved in some gambling. Baseball did a 'token' investigation. If there is proof that they did bet on baseball, should we kick them out too? What do we know about the practices of the Sports writers who vote? Are they huge gamblers? This past Spring, the Hall of Fame cancelled a weekend celebration of the anniversary of the film "Bull Durham" because 2 of the stars were against the war in Iraq! What is that? If Barry Bonds came out today and said that George W Bush is an idiot, would that exclude him from the Hall? I always wanted to visit Cooperstown. Now, I won't even consider it until they elect Pete Rose and get rid of the current people who are running it. When Pete Rose and Bart Giamati made their deal, Rose would have still been eligible for the Hall of Fame. Fay Vincent witnessed it. After Bart died and Vincent was named commissioner, he pressured the Hall to change their rules to make Rose ineligible. Where are the ethics in that? Last, but not least, to say that this a lifetime ban and that Rose should be in the Hall of Fame after he dies is just plain mean and vindictive. I don't think the Hall should be used as a weapon!!!

Rick,

You are comparing apples to oranges by bringing in O.J. and Kirby. BTW, Kirby was acquitted, like O.J. Regardless, neither did anything while playing that intentionally tried to illegally tarnish their game. Rose did.

Rule 21d is MLB's most serious rule, its only capital crime. Violation of it warrants a lifetime ban, and deservedly so--whether it is violated by a player, coach, umpire, or even, yes, a manager, who, BTW, can affect the outcome of a game more easily than a single player.

Rose bet on baseball. He bet on his OWN games. He violated 21d on numerous occasions. Worse (perhaps), he refuses to admit this and is arrogant enough to suggest he's some kind of persecuted victim.

No matter how good he was as a player, his actions served to undermine the very fabric of the game, and that can never be forgotten or disregarded.

Bill W., I agree completely with you on Shoeless Joe, too.

Here's my compromise for resolving the whole "should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame" controversy:

Let him in. But posthumously, only.

I have an extra ticket for Tuesday's businessperson's special. If not, then there's August 12... wink

Umpire, there is no evidence that Pete Rose bet on baseball when he was a player. Ban Pete Rose from managing or coaching, but you cannot ignore his contributions to the game as a player. I am not saying Pete Rose is not an arrogant a--hole! I will reiterate my position. The Hall of Fame was established to honor players, managers, owners, broadcasters and writers for their contributions to the game of baseball. It was not established to be a 'punishment tool' for baseball. Under the Rose- Giamanti original agreement, Rose would have been eligible for the Hall of Fame. BTW- Kirby was acquitted of the sexual misconduct charge, but it came out in the trial that he cheated on his wife (and mistress) and beat his wife. I won't even argue the OJ case. Then again he lost the civil suit. I am not a huge Pete Rose fan, but it is idiotic to have a Hall of Fame and ignore his accomplishments. I mean they could put that on his plague that he was banned from participating in baseball (except Selig already let him go to one event) and there is evidence that he bet on baseball and disgraced the game.

Actually there is, Rick. I've been privy to it.

BTW, I reiterate that MLB Rule 21d makes NO distinction between a player or a manager violating it. If a player, MANAGER, coach, umpire, etc. violates 21d, they're out for life.

Making excuses for Rose because he was a player is ridiculous. He violated 21d; he willfully did so; he denied that he did; he refuses to even show remorse. He doesn't deserve to be anywhere near Baseball.

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/rose/dowd...d/dowd_iva.html

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/rose/slip870409.gif

Well Umpire, this is just one of those topics in which I will just have to agree to disagree with you on. I am not going to change my mind and I know that you will not change yours! (you umpires can get so stubborn!!! wink ). I enjoy most of your other posts, so I hope you don't think this was personal!

Did Pete gamble on baseball? Yes.
Did he bet on his own team? Yes.
Did he bet against his own team? No way.

Let him into the Hall. He has more hits than Cobb, and he's significantly less of an ass**** than Cobb was. And don't tell me the Jawja Peach didn't bet on baseball!

What's the difference if he didn't bet against his own team? What if bet FOR his own team with the over/under?

Stop making excuses for someone who violated Baseball's most sacred rule. Nothing else he could have done would have been worse, so why is there even a debate on this? If his actions are excused, then Rule 21d is meaningless, and the 8 Black Sox players ought to be reinstated.

Rick62, as an employee of Major League Baseball, I have been shown much of the Rose information that the public has never seen. My peers and I have all been shown much information about Rose and related issues by MLB Security and FBI agents. We cover this in our annual preseason meetings. Suffice it to say that there is a lot of scarey stuff we have seen.

That's the problem. There's no way he would have broken
the record by merit or longevity if Marge (\"Hitler did a
lot of good\") Schott-head hadn't been the owner. He stole
the record (he did not earn it) by putting himself in the
lineup long after AA players would have been more effective.
I often joke with friends that he had to screw Schott as
part of the deal to manage and play. It wouldn't surprise.

By comparison, Nolan Ryan earned his record and kept his
nose clean while remaining effective for the best part of
three decades. He's what a Hall Of Fame player should be.


You neglect to mention that Simpson was in the HoF before
he committed his crimes. It's always harder to get into
some clubs than to get kicked out. (US Resident Shrub was
a legacy student at Yale, not there on merit.)


Who would you have voting? The owners? If so, players
would go in based on the sale of merchandise. At least
with reporters voting, that is less likely. And I don't
see owners to be more likely to vote for Curt Flood.


If experienced sports writers (15+ years) are the only
people allowed to vote, then your argument is invalid.
We now have video archives, internet, multiple sports
channels, numerous almanacs and other sources for
writers to make their decisions.

I'd argue the contrary of you: young writers of today
would have far more information to base their voting on
than ever before, and thus a more informed and accurate
decision.


Disagree. Baseball is the most difficult hall to enter.
It's quite possible that a quality player may be a victim
of the era he played in. Think of players from teams
other than the Yankees while \"Murderer's Row\" existed.


I can't comment on Speaker, but Cobb got in when it was
still acceptable to \"think\" like that. If you object
to Cobb's inclusion, I hope you also object to the
exclusion of the majority of Negro League players. (If
I could time travel to the USA in the 1920s, I wouldn't
watch Ruth or the Yankees, I can tell you that.)


It's pettiness.

Remember who is the appointed US Resident, George Shrub,
former incompetent owner of the Texas Rangers. Also
recall that one of Shrub's major supporters is Clear
Channel Communications, the radio conglomerate that
spearheaded the campaign against the Dixie Chicks. I
have no numbers, but I'd bet a lot of CCC radio stations
broadcast MLB games.

Conservatives and corporations are always in bed with
each other, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot
of back scratching going on while they're spooning out
Shrub's cocaine.


It would never happen, Bonds only talks about himself.


Perhaps the rules are not being applied consitently, but
that does not negate what Rose did. When there are a
rotten apples in a barrel, adding more won't fix things.

The only thing hurt by keeping Rose out of the hall is
Rose's prices for his "memorabilia". He pissed in his
own bed, and people are tired of hearing him asking
others to clean it up for him. Unless he's a big baby,
he should do it himself by admitting and apologizing.


Bob Dog

Hey Ump, I wish Sports Illustrated or USA Today would publish some of the stuff that you have seen. I mean if Pete Rose can go around the country refuting that he bet on baseball, then they should be able to prove him wrong. I still think that he should get in for what he accomplished on the field. Do you have any converstions with current players about this? What are their general opinions? Thanks!
Bob Dog, Rose's last years were not the best, but to say that him and Schott were the only ones that wanted him to stay and break the record is not right. Baseball got a lot of attention because of this feat. Who could forget the picture of him and his son hugging at first base. It was a Field of Dreams moment that baseball loves. BTW- many people felt Nolan Ryan stayed too long to get his 300th win. I do not share that opinion though.

I'll bet: Rose in the Hall of Fame, 24 months. Why, otherwise, it will be the demise of Great American Pasttime. :cool: (former Cincinnatian)

I will not mention names or specifics, of course, but in brief conversations with the few players with whom I have chatted about this, the consensus among those--I can't fairly extend this to imply all MLB players--is that Rose pretty much is a loser. He's perceived as an egotistical guy who didn't care about the game one bit; rather, he cared only about his numbers.

As one player once said to me: "He cheated, he tried to cheat even more, he corrupted the game, then he constantly denies it all. He broke the rule, so let him suffer the consequences."

[ July 27, 2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: The Umpire ]

I'd be in favor of allowing him to be eligible to be voted into the Hall of Fame without being reinstated to baseball. Isn't there a limited reinstatement being discussed that would allow him to be elibible for the Hall of Fame, play in "reunion" or "old timer" games, with no job or consultating roles in MLB allowed. That would be my vote.

Thanks to Bob Dog for hitting the nail on the head.

Pete Rose was, is and always will be, about Pete Rose. Period. He has nothing to offer baseball. For everyone that was a fan of Pete, inspired by his play, you should feel even more betrayed than the rest of us. He sold your loyalty and admiration for a quick dollar.

Baseball is better without him.

For MLB to even contemplate of letting Rose off the hook is indicative of what's wrong with MLB. It has lost its sense of purpose, its sense of history, and its place in the American psyche.

For MLB to even contemplate of letting Rose off the hook is indicative of what's wrong with MLB. It has lost its sense of purpose, its sense of history, and its place in the American psyche.

A lifetime ban should be a lifetime. Who does MLB think it is, track and field?