It's been years since a pitcher reached the 300 victory mark. Unless Greg Maddux reaches it as well, it'll be many years before another pitcher gets there. But, barring an injury, Roger Clemens should get there in the next few weeks. Rocket notched number 298 today (outpitching Barry Zito and the A's). What's so intriguing about this is that if Clemens wins his next start (at home vs. Texas), he would go for number 300 at - drumroll, please! - Fenway Park, probably on 5/21. Yes, the city where a supposedly washed up Clemens was treated so shabbily by Dan Duquette six years, three Cy Youngs and over 100 victories ago. If Clemens doesn't do it in those two games he gets another chance at Yankee Stadium on Memorial Day against the same Red Sox. I'm stoked about watching Clemens go for the milestone. He's easily a first round Hall of Famer; I just hope the faction of Red Sox Nation that is still bitter about his departure doesn't act in a way that detracts from his and his family's ability to appreciate the event if indeed he goes for the record in Beantown.

Yeah, I've been wondering how the Fenway Faithful are going to treat him if (when!) #300 comes in Boston. Are they gonna be vicious or respectful? Hmm...

ummmmmm... my guess would be "Vicious"

I mean...... let's face it. For whatever reason, the Red sox fans are the most bitter fans in the world. Who else would do a thing like while cheering the New England Patriots SuperBowl victory, break out chanting "Yankees suck!"

I mean.. come on! It's not even the same sport! Let it go already. or at least wait til spring training starts to get drunk, rowdy and psychotically anti-Yankees.

To that mix, add the fact that Clemens went from the Sox to the Yanks, is going for his 300th and is one hell of a sexy guy to boot.

Yeah. The Sox fans are gonna be pleasant as all get out.

[ May 11, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: ung ]

If Clemens wins his next start, I doubt he will pitch against the Red Sox on the 21st. The Yankees play the Jays at home on the 22nd. Besides giving Clemens to win his 300th at home, it gives him another days rest. Most of the season so far, the starting rotation has been pitching on five days rest, because of days off.

Wasn't Clemens booed last year in Boston more than once? I hope he does win it there, but I'd rather have him take an extra day and come back to beat Toronto at Yankee Stadium. He's one of the greatest pitchers of all time, truly.

To which I feel compelled to add that he has a reputation as an obnoxious, hotheaded jerk. It would be naive to think that wouldn't come into play as far as fan reaction is concerned. Yes, great pitcher, 300 is a great milestone, but not everybody loves the Rocket.

Didn't Clemens go to the Blue Jays after leaving Boston?

Right, Catcher, in fact he picked up two of his six Cy Young Awards during his stint with the Blue Jays, '97-'98, with ERA's of .205 and .265 respectively. (His personal best was 1.93 with the Red Sox in 1990, over 228 innings. Unbelievable.)

Clemens pitched his 299th win last Wednesday in Boston, facing Tim "Woof-Daddy" Wakefield. Martinez had been on the rotation for this afternoon, but since he's gone on the DL with a strained right lat, Wakefield will once again have the honor. I'll be rooting for both of them.

Much of the Fenway Faithful's hard feelings toward Clemens seem to have dissipated. Last week he was welcomed with polite applause, very few taunts and jeers. The tenor of many fans' animosity, I think, has been quieted by the recognition that we're watching a truly legendary athlete make his mark on the game.

[ May 26, 2003, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

I am going to be happy for Clemens! But I would just be happy if the Yankees could win a damn game for a change! frown

The usually trustworthy ROB NEYER has a rather stupid and amateurish analysis in which he concludes that ROGER CLEMENS is the greatest pitcher in the post-WW2 era: \"Clemens with few peers in modern age\"

Why stupid? First of all, for the retired pitchers, he ignores the fact that, in most cases, the end of a pitching career (barring catastrophic injury) is typically marred by some truly awful seasons at the end. Clemens will pitch at least one or two truly bad seasons before he walks away, no doubt. The comparison being retired pitchers and those on active duty is unfair.

But the biggest reason: Neyer randomly and inexplicably ignores my candidate for the greatest pitcher post-WW2: STEVE CARLTON. Carlton's percentage-based stats took a beating when he pitched very mediocre baseball deep into his 40's. Cut off his career before he hit 40 - after, say, the 1983 season -- age 39, 3.11 ERA, 275 K's, 15-16 record, though, for an awful Phillies team that somehow ended up playing in the World Series -- and Carlton's career numbers look much much better.

E.g., instead of an ERA of 3.22, which ranks only 300th all-time, Carlton would've had an ERA of 3.01, good for around 200th of all time. 200th sill sounds awfully high for best ever, doesn't it? Not really. Most of those above Carlton pitched in the ancient eras of baseball, or had short careers (or both). Compared with some of the other studs who pitched for a long time in the recent ERA, Carlton's career ERA looks pretty good.

Neyer did do a good job of controlling for the effect of the ERA. He discounted the ERA's of the guys pitching in the 1960s because that was an extremely favorable time for pitchers (Bob Gibson leading the NL with an ERA of 1.12, Carl Yastrzemski winning a batting title hitting .301). Still, a glaring omission not to include Carlton.

Clemens is ONE of the best, I'll agree to that. But I'd take Carlton (who at least had the decency not to talk to the media when he had nothing to say -- for a couple of decades).

And give me an eff-ing break if someone wants to label Sandy Koufax the best ever -- pitching a short career in the most extreme pitchers park during the most extreme pitchers era -- Koufax was mediocre until the Dodgers moved into the pitcher-loving Dodger Stadium. Koufax was very good, too, but he was no Rocket Roger. And definitely no Steve Carlton.

[ May 26, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

Well, I think "unbelievable" is Bob Gibson's 1.16 ERA over 304.7 innings, with 28 complete games and 13--yes, 13--shutouts in 1968. He actually only won 22 games and lost 9; but then the best hitter on that team, Curt Flood, hit only .301 and Orlando Cepeda was the top HR hitter with 16, while broadcaster Mike Shannon led the team with only 79 runs batted in. Also, Gibson was pitching against the likes of Juan Marichal (26 wins that year), Ferguson Jenkins (20), Don Drysdale (50+ scoreless innings), etc .

Another "unbelievable" season in the modern era is Sandy Koufax's 1966 season,when he pitched 323 innings with a damaged elbow, going 27-9 with an 1.73 ERA, 27 complete games and 5 shut outs. He also pitched his fourth no-hitter, a perfect game, that year. The previous year he had gone 26-8 with a 2.04 ERA, 27 complete games, 8 shut outs, 382 Ks in 335.7 innings, and 2 SAVES. Yes, Koufax even pitched clean up at times.

And as CITT says, Carlton--and I would add Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer (who NEVER surrendered a grand slam in his entire career), Nolan Ryan, Ferguson Jenkins, and in the last few years, Randy Johnson--would also rank among the greatest contemporary pitchers. Clemens is certainly one of the best.

I don't know, Charlie. Even discounting his last seasons, Seaver's numbers look pretty much as good as Carlton's to me. Yes, Seaver's ERA is boosted by the years in Shea stadium, but he also pitched 3 full years in the AL with the DH rule. As far as Clemens goes, the same argument used to discount Gibson & Koufax's stats compared to Carlton can be used against Carlton. During Carlton's tenure, the average NL ERA was 3.70 (using Baseball Reference, I think it's a weighted average). During Clemens time the AL ERA was 4.49. Despite that, Clemens has a career ERA at the age of 39 barely higher than Carlton's, despite the DH rule and a more hit-happy era. I'll take Clemens. Sure a few more seasons will raise his career ERA and lower his winning percentage, but he'll still have led the league in ERA six times and in wins 5 times.

Hmmmmm..........He may still change his mind, but Clemens has consistently said since last season ended that this year will be his last as a ML pitcher. In other words, he would end his career without the end-of-career mediocre stats that Carlton and other great pitchers have had. It's hard to compare anyone with some of the pre-1900 winners of 300 because it's such a different game. But I think a great argument can be made for any of Clemens, Seaver and Carlton as the greatest of the 20th century. Pitchers like Koufax and Gibson certainly had several exemplary years, but their career stats pale somewhat in comparison to those three. Even Nolan Ryan, who was certainly the most dominant pitcher I ever saw in individual games, is not in the league of those three.

Fantomas, while Koufax and Gibson had great SEASONS, I don't think it's fair to use stats like Innings Pitched, Strikeouts, and complete games to dismiss modern pitchers. The way pitchers are used has changed. It's like claiming Hoyt Wilhelm was not a great reliever because he didn't amass the number of saves that modern relievers do. As impressive Koufax and Gibson's best seasons were, they didn't put up enough years at that level for me to choose them over players like Seaver, Carlton, Clemens, or Greg Maddux.

Speaking of Maddux, I think his '94 and '95 seasons--(16-6, 1.56; 19-2, 1.63) are as extraordinary as Koufax's best seasons in context.

Man, when I did "dismiss" "modern" pitchers???

First, Gibson and Koufax ARE modern pitchers. Second, the comment was in response to the referencing of Clemens' famous 1.93 ERA year.

Third, when you talk about Gibson not "putting up enough years," who are you talking about? He won 251 games, threw 255 complete games, with 56 shutouts, struck out 3117 batters, and finished with 2.91 ERA (when the NL league ERA was 3.70 over the same span) in 17 seasons. AND, unlike Clemens (or Maddux), Gibson won the biggest games consistently; in the World Series, he dominated the Yankees in 1964 and the Red Sucks in 1967, and nearly won the 1968 series for the Cardinals against Detroit. That is a DAMNED good career if you ask me, and he often played for weak-hitting teams (Koufax's 1966 team was one of the lightest hitting in any of the 1960s) against the likes of McCovey, Mays, Clemente, Aaron, Frank Robinson, Rose, Billy Williams, Banks, and so on. I would put Gibson up there; his stats weren't just for a few years. The man won two Cy Youngs and 20 or more games five times. A 1.12 ERA in any year, especially one in which about 10 future Hall of Famers are either pitching or position players in your league, also is remarkable by any stretch.

Koufax was the dominant pitcher for six years. Four years of consecutive no hitters, with a bad elbow, culminating a perfect game, is pretty damned good. Sandy was more dominant, on a light-hitting team, than almost any other major leaguer over a six-year span. Maddux can't hold a candle to Koufax, I'm sorry.

I'm a MAJOR fan of Clemens, but I would have to say I'd rank Carlton, Seaver or Palmer as better or equal pitchers, and for World Series pitching, I'd take Gibson, Koufax and Randy Johnson over Clemens any day.

Maddux is great too--especially given that he never had the same stuff as pitchers like Clemens, Ryan, Gibson, Seaver, or Koufax. I'll qualify my previous remark to say that looking at Gibson's and Maddux's 17 year totals, they're actually pretty close, though Gibson gave up fewer hits and struck out more batters, while Maddux has a slightly lower ERA and has walked far fewer batters (no surprising as that's one of his greatest strengths.) Maddux pitched about 50 more games and won 20 more than Gibson over the same 17 year span, so Gibson's shutout percentage is higher too. He had far less benefit of great relief, as many more recent pitchers have had. He's 13th on the all-time shut out list--modern pitchers who have more? Spahn, Ryan, Seaver, Blyleven, and Sutton. All except Spahn and Seaver pitched many more years.

[ May 29, 2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

OK--you claim you're not using IP, shutouts etc. to dismiss contemporary pitchers (I don't consider pitchers who played with significantly different rules--higher mound, larger strike zone, etc. to be modern but that's semantics). Why keep bringing up the number of shutouts, etc., then? On what other basis can you claim Koufax's seasons were superior? Despite pitching in a terrific pitchers park, his ERA was never less than half the ERA of the league.

Let's take a look at career accomplishments:
(Clemens/Gibson/Koufax)

Cy Young's (6/2/3)
Led League in ERA (6/1/5)
Led League in Wins (5/1/3)
In Top 10 in Cy Young Balloting (10/4/4)
In Top 10 in ERA (12/8/6)
In Top 10 in Wins (11/8/5)
And since you love them so much:
Led League in Shutouts (6/4/3)
In Top 10 in Shutouts (11/8/4)

I'll concede Gibson's '68 season was astonishing, but while he was an A list pitcher for about 12 years, he was not as dominant for as long as Clemens, which is why he didn't win 300 games. Maybe you can argue that Koufax's best six years were better than Clemens (though Clemens did win 6 Cy Young's so he was also the dominant pitcher for at least six years). But if you take Clemens' six cy young years out, he still has a 173-112 record--an astonishing record for one's poor to average years. Take out Koufax's best six years, and he's 36-40. And while Roger's championship series record isn't that great, on the biggest stage--the world series--he's 3-0 with a 1.56 ERA through 6 games. I'd say that's pretty damn good--better than Gibson in fact, though Koufax's record is astonishing. But I'm very reluctant to weight someone's overall ranking too heavily on the basis of a handful of games. After all, until last year, Bonds had very little success in the post-season.

Tsk tsk, CITT ... read more carefully! Neyer says, as of today, he'd still rank Tom Seaver as #1 over Clemens. And part of his rationale is that Clemens isn't done yet, addressing your "unfair comparison" point.... And since Clemens, at nearly 41, is already at the age where many other great pitchers were retired or bad -- e.g., Steve Carlton! -- I don't see a lack of fairness anyway.

I also don't think saying Carlton ranks somewhere in the #6-10 range since WW2 (as he did in this followup column) is "ignoring" him. As Neyer says, Carlton had about 4 great seasons, and wasn't quite up to the top 5 guys for as long.

Oy! Here we go again today in Detroit. I cannot imagine that only the people in the Detroit and New York metropolitan areas can only pick up this game today. Maybe FOX Sportsnet or someone will give the fans living elsewhere a chance to see this? :confused:

Clemens is going to eventually get his 300th. But he's now officially taken two strikes. Lifted from the game after six and the Tigers have tied it up 8-8.

What's that say about Clemens: giving up six runs to the Tigers? Six runs ... that's a month's worth of offense for the Motowners. And they got that much off the Rocket in six innings.

This is really trivializing Clemens's accomplishments. And that's a very good thing.

Okay, JC, so you're admitting that you overstated my comments about "modern" pitchers. The shutout mention is a mark of a pitcher's dominance and durability. Clemens has been able to win in his later years in part because unlike the pitchers of old, he's often had strong offenses, as well as decent to very-decent relief staffs behind him, while Gibson and Koufax--and the younger Carlton and Ryan, were EXPECTED to pitch complete games, sometimes with pathetic offenses behind them. Even Warren Spahn, at 44, pitched more CG in one year (8) that Clemens pitched in his great 20-3 year at the age of 38, when the bats of his teammates and Mariano Rivera's arm either bailed him out. But look, I do think Clemens is a great pitcher, one of the very best. I don't think it's necessary to diminish the other great pitchers to build him up. Each great pitcher has faced different circumstances.

As for World Series records:
Clemens'
G ERA W-L IP H ER BB K
6 1.56 3-0 40.3 25 7 12 43

Gibson's
G ERA W-L IP H ER BB K
9 1.89 7-2 81.0 55 17 17 92

Koufax's
G ERA W-L IP H ER BB K
8 0.95 4-3 57.0 36 6 11 61

As I said, I love Clemens, but I'll take Gibson or Koufax any day over Clemens in the Series and post-season. His late turnaround is definitely major and I hope he gets no. 300 today!

[ June 01, 2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

I was eating a late lunch at Chilis out in the burbs yesterday and I had on my Red Sox visor. The manager comes over and asks how everything is, etc., then starts going on and on about how Clemens is about to get his 300th, the Yanks are up 8-1, blah-blah-blah. It took a few minutes for it to register that Clemens used to be a Red Sock (?) (I was hungover). At any rate, when I got home later on I was happy to find out that the Yanks had blown it.

Also happy to see the Braves blew their lead and lost to the Mets. AND I got to pairs of awesome trunks at Old Navy. Not a bad day, all in all.

So it looks like Clemens will try again on Saturday at Wrigley Field. I heard yesterday that the Yankees haven't played at Wrigley since the 1930's, so that seems pretty cool. In addition, I think Kerry Wood will be starting for the Cubbies, which seems strangely fitting.

One hopes that the Cubbies' bats (such as they are) will break out on Saturday.

I tried to get tickets but they're all gone; I'll see if any scalpers are out and about on Saturday because I want to see this game. Go Yankees!

Anyone else going to be there?

I'm trying to sell one of my kidneys as we speak, fantomas.

ARRRGGGGHHH!!!!

I cannot believe Torre took Clemens out after only 82 pitches and with only a 1-0 lead to bring in the likes of Acevedo!!! Acevedo!!!! Acevedo, who waddles in, parks his carcass on the mound, and serves up one meatball for a three-run homerun to a guy who's only in the game because the starter's been badly injured in a freak accident. Goodbye, victory # 300!!!

Acevedo deserves punishment. He deserves scorn. He derserves searing physical pain and abject public humiliation. I hope when he and Clemens meet in the locker room Roger rips his arm off and beats him with the bloody stump. Then I hope the team makes him launder their soiled jockstraps with his tongue. Then I hope they kick him about the face with their cleats on, inflicting permanent scars that will require plastic surgery. Then I want him helicoptered into Belmont Park and left on the track for the horses to all step on as run the Preakness today. Then I want him sssssssssss <KABOOM!!!> <splat!> ooh, my head just exploded.

I feel much better now. I hope Hee Seong Choi is OK.

A friend of mine was at the game, and he told me he'd been to at least a couple dozen games at Wrigley, and he'd never heard a cheer louder than the one that went up when Eric Karros hit that home run. I know I was screaming for joy! WGN Radio said that Hee Seop Choi has a pretty nasty concussion, but he was alert and talking at Masonic Hospital, where he'll stay overnight, and that he should be all right. I know I was worried, cause it seemed like he wasn't moving or doing anything but laying motionless on the ground, but I'd heard he was moving his arms around a little bit, that we couldn't see because of all the guys around him. Considering some of the freak injuries that have happened in the past, I'm glad Hee Seop is apparently going to be OK.

Wow, you ARE upset.

So upset that he thinks they ran the Preakness at Belmont! We know that you know the Preakness was the previous race held in Maryland, Munson Man.

Hey, lay off, can't you tell I'm despondent? wink

<deep breath>

OK, I'm much calmer today. According to the paper, Clemens will try again on Friday the 13th (yikes!) at home against the St. Louis Cardinals. That game will also mark the return of Tino Martinez to Yankee Stadium. I happen to have tickets, so I'm pretty psyched!

My Red Line training heading north to Howard stopped at Addison (where Wrigley is), the doors opened, and I heard a huge roar. Yankees are getting hammered, I knew. When I got home I checked: Pettitte served up 6 runs in an inning or two. (Is his arm screwed up again?)

Oh well, Yankees are probably eager to get out of Daleyland!

A name for the Clemens' family tour? The Long and Winding Road?

Thanks to the Yanks for my two biggest laughs of the weekend, for that is what I did at the Karros HR and Gipson's game-ending pickoff!

It did overshadow the Mets absolutely horrendous day yesterday.

I think most Yankee fans would've laughed as well, except we were just exhausted from laughing at the play of the AAA Mess yesterday. 13-1 AND 7-0, that was pretty funny. The bright spot was nobody had to stay at Shea too long since the outcome was never in doubt - gave them plenty of time to get home and watch major league baseball.

Where did that curly-headed young beauty Gipson come from? Damn is he cute! He needs to learn how to run the bases, though. I wonder if Derek or Bernie has dibs on him, or whether he's pledged himself to Alfonso or Raul for his Yankees "breaking in."

Is it mean to wish that Clemens would sustain a season-ending injury and spend the rest of the year stuck on 299? Yes, of course it is, but I can't help it. I don't like the guy because a) he posed with his wife in the SI Swimsuit Edition, which is just too cheesy for words, and in some ESPN story on his quest for 300, they showed him at some press conference wearing absolutely the most hideous green suit I've ever seen. I mean, green, like puke green. I can't think of any familiar object that is the color of this suit. Kermit the Frog, or a green Jolly Rancher, maybe. Clemens looked like the Riddler, but just not as low-key and tasteful.

That's just my two-cents worth, I'm feeling very catty and superficial today.

Perhaps Simontacchi will 0-hit the Creeps tomorrow night...

pat125 & Munson Man typify the class of The Yankee Fan. Any shortcomings in the Bronx, the subject gets changed.

Any rational Mets fan (me included) knew the Flushingites weren't making the playoffs going into this year. They aren't blessed by "Yankee magic" or Derek Jeter, who despite being about the 8th-best SS in MLB this year gets called "the best, just because" by ESPN idiot Harold Reynolds... The end of this Dynasty is is looming!

That's kind of a cheap shot. You laughed at their team's loss and they merely replied by laughing at your team's double loss. That's just fans having fun...or isn't fun covered in the almighty Baseball Prospectus?

Oh, please, get off the cross, somebody needs the wood. you were hardly making any dispassionate observations about shortcomings in the Bonx. Given your post about "laughing" you'll have to pardon me if I'm laughing yet again - this time at the thought of you commenting at anyone's lack of class. BTW, since you're so offended at anyone "changing the subject" might I suggest you start another thread for your weekly Derek Jeter diatribes. See, this thread is about "Roger Clemens: the countdown to 300," and you wouldn't want to change the subject.

Sorry, for the tangent, folks, I just get a little fed up with the constant bitterness and cynicism from certain quarters. Now, back to Roger - looks like he will indeed be trying again on Friday night.

My, some folks are showing humor and perspective worthy of ... Roger Clemens?

I don't understand why those nouns are considered synonyms for reason and objective analysis.
:confused:

(Everyone knows a pair of humiliating losses by a team with the media and their front-runner fans genuflecting to them daily is funnier than similar losses by also-rans.)

Who's Derek Jeter?

Another attempt tonight for Roger and #300 as the Cardinals visit Yankee Stadium.

This will be about the only time I say this, but, Go Redbirds!

This is a major distraction for the Yankees! Just get the damn 300th victory already! :mad:

Done. The Yanks' bullpen doesn't choke this time.

[ June 13, 2003, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: cubsfan1982 ]

Moderators: You may now close this thread. wink

Our long national nightmare is over. wink And he got his 4000th career strikeout to boot.

Terrific performance by Clemens last night. The atmosphere in Yankee Stadium was so electric it felt like a World Series game. Everyone was so into it, if for no other reason to take our minds off how cold it was - and, of course, it rained almost nonstop throughout the game. I was really taken aback by how forcefully Torre was booed when he removed Clemens in the seventh; it was a combination of wanting to see Roger finish and total fear of our bullpen. I did think it was weird that Roger used the time between the seventh and ninth inning to go into the locker room and shave before the end of the game. It was unusual to see him without his usual scruff at the end of the game........

Clemens is threatening to boycott the Hall of Fame induction ceremony if he's not allowed to go in as a Yankee.

No Sox on Clemens' Cap!

[ June 15, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]