We all enjoy the "Hot Jocks Talk" aspect of wrestling, and there's always a wrestling thread or two going on over in that forum.

But there are also a few of us who enjoy the sport itself, or are curious and want to learn more. It might be worthwhile to have a catch-all thread for random wrestling comments and questions.

I'm no expert: I've never wrestled, and have only been a fan for a few years, so there's still plenty of stuff I don't know. For instance, I still can't tell the difference between a high-crotch and a single-leg attack. Can anyone explain this to me?

The big news in wrestling right now is the annual Midlands tournament going on out at Northwestern.

From the session I brackets:

At 133: Cornell's Travis Lee, last year's national champion at 125, is seeded #1 in this tournament, but in his first match he was defeated by Donald Locket, a walk-on at D2 San Francisco State. Much head-scratching here...

At 141: Harvard's Max Meltzer, one of my favorite wrestlers, is seeded 9th but has won all his matches so far. In session II he'll face #1 seed Dylan Long from Northern Iowa. I wish I could be there.

At 149: Cornell's Dustin Manotti is seeded first. So where is Harvard's Jesse Jantzen? He certified at 149 this year but has been wrestling at 157 so far, presumably to give himself more of a workout in the early season. But Las Vegas was supposed to be his last outing at 157. Manotti is a fine wrestler, but Jantzen has cleaned his clock in the past, and is expected to win it all at the Big Dance in March. So where is he?

You can get updates from Northwestern's Wrestling Website

Complete Session I brackets here (116K pdf file)

[ December 30, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Roy Robertson ]

Interesting sidelight on the Midlands tournament:
High School Wrestler to Compete in Midlands
(a 141-pounder from Griffith, IN ... Greek, I'm guessing from the name)

Midlands final results here:
Good quick summary here:

Midlands is an "individual", not a "dual meet" tournament. It is also open, and invitational, so the concept of team isn't really part of the format. But the best teams have always come here and brought as many of their best wrestlers as they could, and team scores are back-calculated from the individual results, just as they will be at the NCAAs in March.

Top 5 teams:

1. Illinois 107.5
2. Iowa St 102.0
3. Penn St 92.0
4. Hofstra 87.5
5. Iowa 80.5

Illinois?

Hey Illini n Milwaukee, what are you guys up to?

And why did Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and Minnesota choose not to compete this year? Stealth strategy?

D'animal (French, no?) here's a followup on Indiana high school wrestler Tsirtsis at Midlands

I had hoped to find a photo of him wrestling at the tournament, but no luck. He wrestled Meltzer from Harvard, but Danielle wasn't there, alas. Best I could find was a photo of him and some teammates from a year ago. The original caption said he was the guy on the left, but he was wrestling at 125 then, so I suspect they meant the guy on the right. And yeah, he does look Greek.

He's going to Iowa next year, where he'll probably red-shirt, but I think we'll be hearing more from him in the 2005-2006 season.

Harvard's Jesse Jantzen has been a force to be reckoned with all through his college career and now, as a senior, he is ranked #1 in the nation at 149 lbs. The following series of photos shows him in action a couple of weeks ago at the Las Vegas Invitational, just before Midlands. He's wrestling up a weight class here, at 157, probably just to give himself a little extra workout. Photo credits, as always, got to Danielle Hobeika and www.amateurwrestlingphotos.com.

Wrestlers around the country know that you do not go to the mat with Jesse Jantzen. But that's more easily said than done. Takedown! The facial expressions say a lot here.

Jantzen's lethal crab ride and half-nelson series: riding fairly high, legs ready to hook in if needed, left arm in a deep-waist hold, right arm has a half-nelson.

What's a "near-fall"? The wrestler in control forces his opponent's shoulders more than half-way towards the mat and holds them there for 2 seconds (for 2 points) or 5 seconds (for 3 points). And guess what the crab-ride-and-half series converts to very nicely? Back points!

Going for more now: loaded up, going down. This is the beginning of the end, and they both know it.

The ref moves into position. Both shoulders need to touch the mat for 1 second. Not yet, but when the ref slaps the mat...it's all over.

There's something lethal and sublime going on here. It's the essence of wrestling, and Jesse Jantzen has it.

Thanks for the follow-up! :cool:

Young Alex certainly isn't afraid to challenge himself. I suspect he'll do well at Iowa.

Oh, and "Danimal" is just a nickname some drunk in a bar gave me years ago; my actual surname is anglicized German. I minored in French but rarely get to use it (though I do get to use the tongue now and then wink ).

Well, the dual-meet season is upon us now: the early-season single-combat tournies are over, the best guys at each weight have won their starting slots, the teams have formed up, and from here on out they hunt as a pack. This is where it gets fun...

Looking for something to do this weekend?

------------
Philadelphia Pa.

Sat Jan 31, 1pm; Penn v Cornell at The Palestra

Two of the finest teams in the east; Should be a barn-burner; short walk from 30th st subway/Amtrak station

------------
Annapolis Md.

Sat Jan 31, 10 am (all day); All-Academy Championship (at Halsey?)

Wrestlers from Air Force, Army, Citadel, Coast Guard, Merchant Marine, Navy, Norwich, VMI;

Woof! Beet Armee!

------------
Providence RI.

Sat Jan 31 11am; Brown v Drexel
Sat Jan 31 2pm; Brown v Lehigh

Brown is OK; Lehigh is VERY good.

------------------
Boston Ma.

Fri Jan 30 7pm Boston University v Drexel at Case Gym
Sat Jan 31 4pm Boston University v Rutgers at Case Gym

BU is okay, their venue is not fan-friendly (scorer's table blocks view of mat!!!); I always go to their home duals though, so-so wrestling is better than no wrestling, and every now and then you get a pleasant surprise. Plus, it's free.

--------------------
Cambridge Ma.

Sat Jan 31, 12pm Massachusetts Institute of Technology v American International College

Who says you have to be a big sports school? Even little D3 MIT and AIC get into the act.

--------------------
Cambridge Ma.

Sat Jan 31 7pm; Harvard v Lehigh at the Malkin Athletic Center

Again, two of the finest teams in the east, with Lehigh nationally ranked. I like the Harvard wrestling team. They are gentlemen: you'll never see the kind of thuggish behavior you sometimes see elsewhere; and they are good wrestlers: usually around 4th or so in their conference, and on a good day they can beat anyone. They have one superstar, Jesse Jantzen, ranked #1 in the nation at 149, and at 141 they have Max Meltzer, a joy to watch for his energy, creativity, and heart. A lot of new faces this year, but many injuries in the early season, so the lineup is uncertain. Max Odom (157 lbs, he of the cat-like low attack) may be back, after losing a year to serious shoulder injury and two surgeries. If he is 100% you will be in for a treat.

Lehigh are no slouches either. Check out Clendinen (125) and Letters (165: great pinner); Trenge(197) is taking the year off to train for the Olympics; you might remember him as the guy who wrestled Cael Sanderson in the final round of Nationals 2 years ago. Plus, Lehigh fans are rabid, and there will be more of them driving up from Bethlehem PA than there will be Harvard fans wandering over from the T stop 2 blocks away.

------------------------

Wrestling is best enjoyed in person, and is usually free. Go early, grab a front-row seat, watch them warm up, put on their game faces. What's going on in your neighborhood?

[ January 28, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Roy Robertson ]

Nice to see some discussion of amateur wrestling. Midlands is a powerhouse tourney. I coach high school wrestling in Maryland and workout freestyle with a local mat club during the spring and summer. Any other folkstylers out there wanna hit me up would be awesome.

Peace-

Jim

Just a reminder... if any of you thought it might be fun to check out a local college wrestling meet some day, this weekend will be your last chance for this season. In two weeks the conference championship tournaments will take place, and two weeks after that the NCAA national championship, and then... nothing, till November, unless you count the occasional Freakstyle tourney, which I don't.

D1 Conference Championships this weekend, 2 full days of wrestling, as many as 6 mats going at once.

Fri-Sat Mar 5-6, 2004
CAA ----------- Rider College, Lawrenceville, NJ

Sat-Sun Mar 6-7, 2004
EIWA ---------- Philadelphia, Pa
East Regional - Slippery Rock, Pa
West Regional - Colorado Springs, Co
Big Ten ------- Columbus, Oh
Big 12 -------- Ames, Ia
ACC ----------- Charlottesville, Va
SoCon --------- Charlottesville, Va
EWL ----------- Bloomsburg
MAC ----------- Athens, OH

Then, in 2 weeks, the Big Dance

Thu-Sat Mar 18-20, 2004
Nationals ----- St. Louis, Mo

The Big Dance: NCAAs this thu -> sat; info, brackets, updates here;

I've heard rumors that NESN will broadcast the semifinal rounds Sat 4-6pm (est) (by tape delay), and ESPN2 will air the finals Sat 6:30pm (est) (live).

Just got back fron St Louis. Wow!

In the 149 lbs Finals round Saturday night Harvard's Jesse Jantzen capped his college wrestling career and won his first national championship with a spectacular win over Oklahoma State's Zach Esposito. At the opening whistle Jantzen exploded with a furious attack the likes of which I have never seen. He threw everything at Espo except a low double and the kitchen sink, and from the stunned look on Espo's face he might even have thrown in a few of those too, so relentless and blindingly fast was the assault. Within the first 2 minutes Espo was taken down, broken down, and struggling mightily just to keep from getting pinned. Jantzen had 5 points on the board, and Esposito had the glazed and devastated look of someone who had just walked into a buzz-saw. He never recovered.

Those of you watching from home didn't see any of this, because the clueless fools at ESPN were showing commercials for the first 2 minutes of this, the most eagerly anticipated match of the entire NCAA tournament.

The coaches from all the participating colleges saw it though, and at the end of the evening they gave Jantzen their Most Outstanding Wrestler award for his accomplishments in this tournament.

Danielle was there, and she saw it too. Here are a few pics from her website. She was having camera troubles, so most of the sequences are incomplete, but you will get the picture.

Some of the Okie State fans, before. They were a great group of folks, boisterous and cheerful and friendly and enthusiastic, but they got a little somber shortly after this was taken.

Zach never knew what hit him...

Does this position look familiar? Jesse has been working his patented "crab-ride and half" series already. You can still see its elements: deep waist, half nelson, legs in. He has Zach loaded up into his lap, and is about to tilt him over for back points, maybe a pin. Mr Esposito is looking thoughtful

And over we go. Jesse Janzen smiles...

And smiles... Jesse wants to turn Zach to his back. See what he's doing with that half nelson? and with his deep-waist hand he's trapped Espo's far arm so he can't resist the turn.

From here on out Jesse pretty much has his way with him

Esposito is heading for his back again, much to his surprise

And Jesse smiles...

Here we go again.

For the next few days Mr Esposito's friends should probably not sneak up behind him
and grab him around the waist...

The End...

Great play-by-play of the 149 lb match RR. Gotta see St Louis sometime - match or no match. Hope you had time to see the town if you haven't been before.

I enjoyed St Louis, and wish I had had more time there for sightseeing. I did a lot of the standard tourist things: Union Station, LaClede's Landing, the park around The Arch, the Old Cathedral, the Art Museum, Grand South Grand, conservation lands along the Missouri and at the confluence with the Mississippi, and I can recommend them all. There were a lot of huge parks, but it was a little early in the year, only forsythias and early magnolias were out. Next year I'll be sure to find time for the history museum and for walking around in some of the older neighborhoods. Soullard (sp?) looked particularly interesting, and is rumored to have some good blues clubs.

Great article in the Minnesota Spokesman-Recorder in which Jamell Tidwell (top) and a fellow teammate give some interesting insights into their sport. It's especially intriguing that Tidwell believes homophobia may account for the relatively small number of blacks in wrestling.

[ April 11, 2004, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

Did wrestlers LeVesseur and Tidwell set off your gaydar? They sure got mine going. They were on the same wrestling team in high school, then went off to different colleges, but after one semester, LeVesseur transferred to Augsburg and "reunited with Tidwell, his ... teammate and friend." The rest of the artical is all "they" this and "they" that, including their plans for after graduation.

I'd love to see the full transcript of the interviews. It seemed like a lot got cut out. For example, homophobia was just mentioned once (in a paraphrase, not a quote) and then dropped. I'd love to see the full context of that discussion.

I'm sure they were right in saying that homophobia deters some young black guys from taking up wrestling. I'm sure it deters some young white guys too. Is one group deterred more than the other? I have no idea.

As far as the relative lack of black guys in wrestling, I suppose that depends on "relative to what?" Relative to the country as a whole, the wrestling teams I've seen seem to be fairly representative, maybe 70-80% white, 10-20% black, 5-10% hispanic, 0-5% asian. I don't know the census numbers for the ethnic makeup of the 18-24 year old age group in this country, but I doubt it is much different from that. If on the other hand they mean the lack of blacks in wrestling relative to basketball, then that's a whole other conversation and I have no clue. I like wrestling the way it is, though, with a nice variety.

The NCAA research department has a publication on the ethnic makeup of college sports teams. You can download it here (485k PDF file)

The homophobia part of their comments interested me more than the racial part, and I wish there had been more. These days no wrestler can possibly pretend that homosexuality doesn't exist, and they all know that their sport is widely perceived as "gay" by their non-wrestling friends. The homosubtext of wrestling is always there, but never discussed, at least not in public, at least not by wrestlers. But they must all have grappled with the issue. Some of them are actually gay of course, and in that case another set of issues can arise. But how does the non-gay wrestler deal with the widely perceived homoerotic nature of his sport? And who among them would raise the issue in an interview?

I think Tidwell's point may be well-taken RR. And your allusion to basketball is the perfect example. Blacks dominate basketball because it became a culturally ingrained phenomenon over half a century ago. Lack of opportunity elsewhere drove a disproportionate number of blacks into the sport. It took on a self-perpetuating momentum as young kids saw like-minded role-models become successful.

Also the sport is hard-as-hell on the joints and organs (especially the lungs) - even more than the average sport. Who, with other options to earn a living, would want to bother. Besides you only need a makeshift basket and a reasonbly good ball to play. No mat required. No sticks and large fields. The rules theoretically disallow excessive contact which can lead to fights and the sport lends itself to a natural gracefulness - yes like dancing.

I know every one of those arguements has a counterpoint and some are going to scream racism, but I think the sum total help explain the disproportionate representation of blacks in basketball.

As for the gay sensibility of wrestling, grappling man to man creates a vulnerability that goes beyond sex. Perhaps boxing would be a better comparison there. Boxing is hugely popular among blacks and has a disproportionate number as well. Because it doesn't require the same intimate contact, it has a more masculine aura.

I didn't read as much into the article as you did concerning the relationship between Tidwell and LaVesseur, but I'll defer to your greater knowledge of wrestling and the history of the two wrestlers on that one. It would be great to see an athlete successful in his sport come out and remain in the sport regardless of ethnicity.

Both these guys seem pretty cool either way.

Your comments on blacks and basketball sounded reasonable to me. Someone somewhere might yell "racism" (whatever that is), but you won't hear it from me, and this isn't the P&R forum. "Nobody here but us rasslin fans." For what it's worth, I think we all posess some degree of racism. I know I do. I think it's part of the way our minds work: observe; generalize; repeat; refine; it's how we make sense of the world, but it's not a perfect process, and we screw up. In any event I think it's more useful try to analyse our own racism than it is to look for racism in others. But it's hard to be honest and open and cheerful and upfront about these things, when a lot of people are eager to scream at you. End of sermon.

As for our two wrestlers, well, my gaydar has never been very accurate: it tends to get all fogged up with wishful thinking. I don't know anything about the guys other than what was in the article you posted. (But I hope they are very happy together, and they should sign up with the bridal registry at NikeTown)

Sometime dry facts and numbers can be interesting. I dug out some info from the NCAA athlete ethnicity study. Folks might enjoy it.

The NCAA gathers athlete demographic info according to the following 7 ethnic categories (my abbreviation in parens at right)

1 American Indian / Native Alaskan ... (natam)
2 Asian / Pacific Islander ................ (asian)
3 Black, non-Hispanic .................... (black)
4 Hispanic ................................... (hispa)
5 non-resident alien ....................... (alien)
6 other ....................................... (other)
7 White non-Hispanic ..................... (white)

The following table shows ethnic participation (as % of total) by sport, and covers NCAA D1 mens sports (football D1-A), 2001-2002; I sorted it by black participation. Who knew the aliens were so big on tennis?

---------------+----+----+------+----+-----+-----+-----+
SportEthnicity|natam|asian|black|hispa|alien| other|white|
---------------+----+----+------+----+-----+-----+-----+
Basketball....... | 0.3 | 0.2 | 57.7 | 1.5 | 04.8 | 03.2 | 32.3 |
Football ......... | 0.6 | 1.9 | 43.8 | 2.1 | 00.6 | 02.2 | 48.8 |
Track, Indoor... | 0.4 | 1.0 | 27.6 | 3.2 | 03.7 | 03.7 | 60.5 |
Track, Outdoor. | 0.3 | 1.2 | 27.1 | 3.7 | 03.6 | 03.9 | 60.1 |
----------------+----+----+-----+----+------+-----+-----+
All Sports ........ | 0.4 | 1.5 | 24.3 | 3.4 | 03.8 | 03.7 | 63.1 |
----------------+----+----+-----+----+------+-----+-----+
Cross Country... | 0.4 | 1.1 | 09.7 | 4.8 | 03.6 | 04.1 | 76.4 |
Soccer ........... | 0.2 | 1.9 | 07.9 | 6.8 | 08.3 | 03.9 | 71.0 |
Wrestling ........ | 0.8 | 1.5 | 07.2 | 5.9 | 00.0 | 05.3 | 79.4 |
Baseball .......... | 0.4 | 1.1 | 06.9 | 5.2 | 01.1 | 01.9 | 83.4 |
Tennis ............ | 0.1 | 4.3 | 06.6 | 3.5 | 23.0 | 06.0 | 56.4 |
Fencing ........... | 0.3 | 6.1 | 04.5 | 2.4 | 03.9 | 14.8 | 67.9 |
Gymnastics ...... | 0.6 | 8.2 | 04.3 | 5.8 | 02.4 | 02.7 | 76.0 |
Golf ................ | 0.4 | 2.4 | 02.6 | 1.8 | 07.8 | 02.2 | 82.8 |
Rowing ............ | 0.4 | 2.7 | 02.2 | 3.3 | 02.3 | 05.6 | 83.5 |
Swim/Dive ....... | 0.2 | 2.1 | 01.7 | 2.9 | 04.8 | 05.8 | 82.5 |
Volleyball ......... | 0.3 | 5.3 | 01.6 | 8.2 | 04.7 | 07.1 | 72.9 |
Rifle ................ | 0.0 | 6.0 | 01.5 | 1.5 | 00.7 | 01.5 | 88.8 |
Lacrosse .......... | 0.3 | 1.0 | 01.4 | 1.2 | 00.6 | 07.1 | 88.3 |
Skiing .............. | 0.0 | 1.1 | 00.6 | 0.6 | 08.0 | 01.7 | 87.9 |
Water Polo ....... | 0.2 | 2.8 | 00.6 | 5.0 | 06.0 | 12.4 | 72.9 |
Ice Hockey ....... | 0.3 | 0.6 | 00.6 | 1.9 | 20.0 | 05.4 | 71.2 |
-----------------+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

The following table shows ethnic participation (as % of total) by NCAA Division, and covers all NCAA mens sports, 2001-2002

---------------+------+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+-----+
SportEthnicity |natam| asian| black|hispa|alien| other|white|
---------------+------+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+-----+
All Sports (D1)..| 00.4 | 01.5 | 24.3 | 3.4 | 03.8 | 03.7 | 63.1 |
All Sports (D2)..| 00.4 | 01.1 | 21.4 | 5.1 | 02.9 | 01.3 | 67.8 |
All Sports (D3)..| 00.2 | 01.4 | 08.6 | 2.8 | 00.9 | 03.5 | 82.7 |
---------------+------+-----+-----+----+-----+------+-----+

GAWD are columns a nightmare in this thing!!!

It would be interesting to divide each group's participation in the sport by its presence in the population, to get a kind of proportionality index, but I don't have those numbers. It might be in the NCAA report somewhere, but I hate lumbering through pdf files and don't have a hard copy to snuggle up in bed with.