Ok so wrestling is what it is...... But there is a gay angle that lately that is a little odd. Tonite they had what is billed as HLA ( hot lesbian action... )stripping and two chicks making out ( of course they got beat up afterwards)

Thursday they are having a fake gay wedding between two pretty studly muscle heads. Ill reserve comments until I see what stunt they pull with this. But I think even something as uhhh distasteful as this indicates that gays are making inroads into regular "normally str8T" worlds.

Im not sure this helps or hurts the gay community ( then again neither does walking around in g strings at parades) but it does indicate that there is a change out there.

For the record I have never seen wrestling live, and i like regular sports better just stating that for the record.

I am a huge Wrestling fan! I posted about this many times b4! I am sure Reverand D-Von and somebody else will "interupt" the ceremony, but I am looking forward to seeing the fans reactions to the "gay" athletes! I really feel it may set a tone for gay athletes deciding on coming out! Pro Wrestling may not be a "real" sport but a lot of its fans are "real" sports fans! A lot of athletes enjoy Pro Wrestling! You can often see them mimicking Pro Wrestlers! Of Course if you are not a fan, you "just don't get it", but if you are, you love it!

First, disclaimer. All this information comes from online sources, the inferences are all coming from a guy who, in general, does not watch wrestling.
The two guys getting "married" are part of a fairly long story line (it was mentioned on this board several months ago) that has been becoming more and more suggestive over time. Both their individual personalities and the relationship between the two has been proceeding toward this point. And all along members of this board have been a little wary about where it's heading. Wrestling does not have a very good history with sexuality issues, particularly queer issues. So far the rhetoric has not crossed the line, but I think now is the time to state where that line is. Of course the ceremony is going to be disrupted, but hopefully it will not be by homophobic remarks or sexual violence. Hopefully the final message will be that there is a place in WWE's mayhem for everyone. Here's hoping. Someone watch Thurs. and let the rest of us know what happens.

While I would hope that jqueer is right, and it won't be broken up in some homophobic way, I have my SERIOUS doubts about all of this (and a huge double standard).

Last night on RAW, the fans went wild for the HLA. But everytime the Chuck and Billy (which I keep wanting to call Chuck & Buck) thing was mentioned, everyone booed. I really don't think the average wrestling fan is going to enjoy this.

Trevor

Not being a follower of wrestling at all, I still feel that all this cathartic booing the fans will do is both positive and negative.

On the one hand, it's like the f**king Christian martyrs in Roman times. No identification, only superiority.

And yet I wouldn't call it hatred. I mean - when Steve Austin is booed, it's because they're SUPPOSED to boo him. But there's still significant admiration for him and idolatry, not least because of latant sexual attraction for the guy. If Chuck & Billy were CHEERED, or merely ignored when they were mentioned, individuals in the crowd must wonder, what would that say about my own sexuality? So they boo.

I mean, it shows pretty strongly how freaking fragile masculinity is today. The jumping on the girl-girl bandwagon ... hey, there's a shared agreement that enjoying HLA makes us (a bit perversely) more hetero. So we'll cheer lustily for it. I believe that many guys are turned on by women going at it - but I also believe that as our culture has given the act a stamp of erotic approval, many more guys have made themselves get turned on by it.

So booing these faux gays on the stage - these men with far more physical power than anyone in the audience will ever have - yes, it's proof that anti-gay anxiety is still strong in the world. But hell, we already knew that.

To me the more important part is the visibility. Whether burlesque or not, millions of men are made to confront homosexuality - and the truth of eroticism in wrestling - on a weekly basis. Many will use it as an excuse to confirm their antipathy, but in others it will spark maybe a twinge of self-doubt and in still others it will be the one chance they have to see themselves up there. They might be in the closet. But Chuck & Billy aren't. And who knows? In the future, maybe we'll have a good gay up there. After all, we had to go through a lot of evil-fag movies before we got to Queer As Folk.

Now whether QAF characters are basically just evil fags themselves is another question.

For all the subliminal gay communications that exist in wrestling, I don't get the confusion. Wrestling, to me, is clearly entertainment. I get off all (literally) by watching it, but don't for the same reason. It's not homophile enough.

Why does the sports angle matter? There are so many sports to watch. Nevertheless, you can't be anti-sports and be successful in that you'd have to practice a lot. I hear some guys even have ballet and acting backgrounds or have done that earlier in their lives.

You can all read my article at the bottom of the Outsports homepage about the whole deal about gay wrestling angles.
I will be adding to it Thursday evening Im sure once they decide how theyre going to run the angle now.
I do find it a bit odd theyve decided recently to be more positive toward the whole thing considering the long running history of being ambiguous about the gay characters in wrestling.
Maybe my article got into the hands of some of their closeted executives in Stamford CT

I looked for the article on the home page. What's the title and category it's under?

Here is the article.

ugh! As much as I hate to admit it, I used to be a wrastlin' fan. Blame it on my Dad.

On Friday nights, my Dad would take me to the Houston County Farm Center (yeah, you read it right) for th wrestling matches in my home town.

It was hot, smoky, but all of my friends in the neighborhood were there to watch the matches. We used to line the ring entrance for the "bad guys" and yell at them. One of my favorite wrestler's name was Dick Dunn (yeah, you read it right). His nemesis was the masked Wrestling Pro, from parts unknown (he was actually a sheriff's deputy from Houston County).

Those were really fun times and it was fun not knowing it wasn't real as a kid. This stuff today is really just asinine.

(Copied from the above article)

Maybe one day it won't be career suicide to come out in the pro wrestling business. I am sure WWF Chairman Vince McMahon and his wife and CEO Linda McMahon are smart enough to realize that by having a gay character who isn't a stereotypical "flaming queen," they might be opening up to a whole new market. Is the WWF ready for that in 2002? That remains to be seen. But it isn't going to happen based on the trend for the last 50 years.

- - - - -

Are you sure that it wouldn't be real-life suicide? After what I saw on TV last night, I will never care what they do. It's ultimately criminal what they're doing, because I'm sure they don't claim responsibility for these shows' affect on their markets (re: leading to hate crimes), they haven't even attempted to prove that this is what the audience feels should be a representation of gay characters, not to mention a marriage (as if they would know), and in the not-too-distant future you're going to have audience with gay parents who are going to have to suffer this phoniness.

The only thing I know to do is stop watching. With all the money available to their productions, none of it makes sense to me any longer. Plus, it's not like I can't have access to great entertainment of all kinds that, at the very least, speaks to the truth.

I don't really need to learn how a gay relationship might look if treated well, but a LOT of people, namely guys in the 20s, got a raw deal last night. What they saw was just so full of lies that it didn't even come close to what it was supposed to portray.

If there is one sport (not necessarily a "real" sport) that a gay guy could probably do good in it's pro wrestling. As long as they make his character a heel (bad guy) then it doesn't matter how much he gets booed, because it's a good thing. A good wrestler is doing his job well as long as he gets a reaction from the fans, be it good or bad. If there is no crowd response, then they really have no interest in the guy's match, and that's a bad thing. He could be like a gay guy that cheats to win or something like that, but still be tough and able to hold his own. The more the crowd reacts to him, even if it is in a negative way, the higher up in the company he will go.

Ken you are completely correct in that crowd reaction shows how well you do your job in that business.
I still dont agree with how they portray gay chracters, but that wont make me stop watching the WWE, even if i ramble on in 2 articles about how horrible they are in their character selection and wedding choices
I just like people to think about things like this, especially national organizations who claim they represent the gay community.

-John McClelland

The Village Voice has an article on its homepage entitled, "Pushy Queers".

The link I tried to post wouldn't work.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

I watch, and enjoy, "Pro Wrestling" during brief moments when there are particularly hunky/handsome/studly men in the ring, and I will also give these wrestlers due credit for their acrobatic skills; even because it's as carefully choreographed and rehearsed as any trapeze artists' routine, the stunts are physically impressive. It's pure eye-candy for me, though: I'll watch with the sound completely muted and, as soon as the next match starts with less-than-gorgeous competitors, I'll begin searching for different entertainment on any other cable channel.

I wonder if we, the gay community, would actually want a Pro Wrestler who is genuinely gay in his real life to attempt to come out by integrating his sexual orientation into his professional persona. The scenarios that are scripted for these characters are such bizarre fever-dream hallucinations that it's a bit like trying to discern profound philosophical truths from "recreational herbaceuticals" --I'm a child of the '60s and I have some fond memories of "magic mushroom" experiences but, it can be a little delusional trying to glean too much "wisdom" or "meaning" from these fantastical places. The boundary between what's "true" and what's only imaginary becomes so slippery --as it is in Pro Wrestling-- that I'm very doubtful we can emerge from these realms with anything of reliable value.

I'm completely in favor of every professional who chooses to come out of the closet, yet, given the Alice in Wonderland nature of Pro Wrestling, it could quite possibly be a case of stepping out of the closet and tumbling immediately down into a rabbit hole, filled with characters and episodes much less charming --but no more dependable-- than those in the Lewis Carroll novel! Curiouser and curiouser...

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: fielderschoice ]

[quote]Originally posted by bluebird48234:
The Village Voice has an article on its homepage entitled, "Pushy Queers".

The link I tried to post wouldn't work.

---

This one seems to work.

Link to Village Voice article

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Thanks for your reference to the Village Voice article, "Pushy Queers", bluebird48234, and thanks for providing the link, Joe in Philly. The analysis by Richard Goldstein (the author) is brilliant, and examines one of the most burdensome stigmas gays are still trying to get out from under, stated plainly in his essay:

"It's still necessary to maintain the illusion that only straight men can kick ass... No wonder the closet remains such a crucial institution in sports long after it has lost its purpose in less exalted professions."

And though Goldstein doesn't make a direct connection with the gays-in-the-military issue, this understanding has finally helped me comprehend why so many straights still find that idea so threatening.
Not long ago my sister and I were sharing our thoughts about what might be called the "Alpha Male Syndrome," which seems to cause so much affliction, yet seems so obsolete (I made the observation that the only apparent use for male aggression is to protect us from male aggression, which --well, you get idea.) I asked my sister, "What are straight men so afraid of?" and I believe she was able to define it in one sentence: "They're afraid that, if women and gays were in power, we'd treat straight men as horribly as they've treated us [these past few million years."]

I think that's the primordial but unwarranted fear we keep bumping into whenever we (gays and women, both) flex a healthy muscle. And evidently that's why Chuck & Billy must still remain only a joke in the hyper-masculinized world-order of Pro Wrestling. I'm not terribly concerned about that separate and strange "alternate universe," but I would like to see some encouraging progress where it really matters in the lives of real people. Perhaps that will arrive when it's finally recognized that "No, we won't let you beat us up anymore, but please try to RELAX, since we don't want revenge." Well, maybe that pleasant day is on its way...

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: fielderschoice ]