What in the heck is going on with these two teams? First the Giants let the well respected Baker go, and potentially coach an underachieving Cubs team (who upgraded themselves greatly, just by his hire) and now the Giants go out and hire an underachieving coach, in Felipe Alou. I don't get it. They went from going to the World Series for the first time in decades to probably not ever going back. They are most likely going to lose several key players including the best 2nd baseman, in Jeff Kent, they let one of the best managers go to entertain other teams' offers, and now they sign a manager in Felipe Alou, who was a bench coach for the lowly Detroit Tigers this past season. What in the heck are they thinking. They may go from being in the World Series one season to finishing with one of the worst records in all of baseball. That is how important Dusty Baker was to this team. A greedy egotistical owner has done it again. Just look at the Dallas Cowboys' Owner/GM Jerry Jones letting Jimmy Johnson go after a Super Bowl victory. I am sick of these "I want all of the glory" owners! It hurts the fans and the players the most.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: SmoothRon ]

I think Alou is a good fit with the Giants, personally. As for the ongoing As The Dusty Turns saga, it looks like his hiring by the Cubs is imminent, which is great. I'm not expecting any miracles from him, but Baker is a man who won't tolerate losing, and he can handle Sammy Sosa, who is Mahatma Gandhi compared to Barry Bonds, as far as egos go. I think the Cubs will improve dramatically when Dusty Baker comes in, however. I can't think of a better guy to teach the game and how it should be played to the young players than him.

I will say, though, that if he does the (seemingly) impossible and bring a world championship to Chicago, prepare for the canonization of St. Dusty.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: cubsfan1982 ]

I think Alou is a good fit for SF, also. When he was in Montreal he got a lot out of the young, inexperienced players. It will be interesting to see what he can do with skilled veterans. one thing for sure: he's hungry to finally get to the World Series which may keep the energy level--his & the players--high.

~Adam

[quote]Originally posted by SmoothRon:
an underachieving coach, in Felipe Alou.

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Underachieving? Managing the Expos for all that time, what could he possibly have been expected to achieve? He guided them to 2nd-place finishes in 1992 and 1993, and they were in first until the strike in 1994 ended the season. After that the franchise was doomed, trading its young stars over and over. There was nothing he could do.

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:

Managing the Expos for all that time, what could [Alou] possibly have been expected to achieve?

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How about developing ONE solid young hitter since Vlad Guerrero (who probably needed little assistance)? Montreal had a ton of "prospects" in Felipe's reign that failed miserably to live up to expectations.

This, combined with Alou's age of 67 -- no manager that old has succeeded since Stengel's latter Yankee seasons -- has me scratching my head at his hiring.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Bill W:
How about developing ONE solid young hitter since Vlad Guerrero (who probably needed little assistance)?

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Jose Vidro.

How about Larry Walker and Moises Alou who were fairly young when Alou started in Montreal. For that matter Rondell White did develop into a good hitter, he was just never healthy.

Besides, are you looking for a manager or a hitting coach?

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
[QB]
The ownership is the problem, along with, I am sad to say, the venue in which the team plays.
QB]

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HERESY! Wrigley is the most beautiful park in the league. It beats Fenway hands down. If it were just the park generated revenue that mattered, how in hell have the Yankees been able to achieve the results they have over the last decade?

While I'm sorry to see Dusty go, I do wish him well with the team I grew up watching. God knows he's got a tough row to hoe there.

Press coverage here in SF has been consistently positive about Alou. Even Dusty was quoted in the Chron as saying Alou is a great fit for the club. I think he'll do a great job working with this team.

But then again, conditioned as a Cubs fan growing up, I'm ever hopeful.

There is no doubt in my mind that Felipe Alou will do a fantastic job in SF (and this is coming from one of the biggest Barry Bonds' haters you'll ever find)....Alou has ALWAYS had the ultimate respect of his players and peers and, as for Bill W questioning the caliber of players that Alou has managed and developed in the past, few organizations in ANY sport can match the Expos when it comes to player development -- just a FEW of the players that have come up through Montreal's farm system in the last 10-12 years alone include Larry Walker, Cliff Floyd, Moises Alou, Marquis Grissom, Jose Vidro, Vladimir Guerrero and that is not even including pitchers like Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson (ever heard of those two?), John Wetteland, Kirk Rueter, U. Urbina and young pitching stars in the making on their roster now like Javier Vazquez and Tony Armas Jr.

The SOLE problem with the Expos (who Alou worked for both as a minor league and major league manager as well as in player development for OVER 20 YEARS) was the refusal of the team's management to retain ANY of the high-caliber athletes that the organization had developed into future superstars....in Felipe Alou's second full season managing the club in 1994 the Expos had the best record in baseball at 74-40 prior to the ill-fated strike that ended the season....it is likely that team would have gone to the World Series and if ANY person in the majors has had MORE of an impact on developing young talent over the past two decades than Felipe Alou and the Expos FORMER player development staff, I'd like to hear who they are.

Although I'll never be a huge Giants fan, IMHO SF has got to be even MORE of a favorite to win the NL West now that Alou is manager than they were under the overrated and egotistical Dusty Baker....of course, a manager is only as good as the players on his roster and if the Giants lose Jeff Kent and David Bell without suitable replacements, that may change the picture considerably....the reason Alou was bench coach with the Tigers for most of last season, btw, was at the personal request of Luis Pujols (who was a former player and coach under Felipe in Montreal for over a decade) and Alou only accepted that position in order to try and help out his friend and protege, which tells a lot about the type of person that Felipe is -- but, given the talent (or lack thereof)that Pujols and Alou had to work with in Detroit, NO ONE could have produced a winning record with that squad last season.

Obviously, I've gotten long winded (as usual) but my point is that any assertion that Felipe Alou is NOT a highly qualified manager is absurd and, if he is given a half-way decent supporting cast (with Bonds, of course) to work with in SF, there is no doubt that under Felipe's leadership and tutelage the Giants will contend for another pennant in 2003 and beyond.

Just a very minor correction to gamecock's post:

Pedro Martinez did not come up through the Montreal minor league system. He is a product of the Dodgers minor league systems.

Les Expos acquired Pedro from the Dodgers right before their glorious 1994 season, in exchange for ... who? c'mon, guess ... guess ... DELINO DE SHIELDS! (One of the worst, most lop-sided trades in major league history.)

You are absolutely right (as usual) CITT....I'm surprised I didn't remember that because during the postseason I was having a discussion with a co-worker about a few of the most lopsided trades in the past 20 years (which might make for an interesting topic for another thread) and the three that immediately popped into my mind were the Dodgers trading Pedro Martinez to Montreal for Delino Deshields; the Red Sox trading Jeff Bagwell to Houston for a washed up Larry Anderson; and the Orioles (thanks to former GM Roland Hemond) trading Curt Shilling AND Steve Finley AND Pete Harnisch to Houston for Glenn Davis.

In either event, thanks for the correction CITT but I still stand behind my initial point that over the past 15-20 years the Expos have developed more talent than virtually any other organization in baseball and that Felipe Alou has been largely responsible for that success, albeit with mixed results due to the team's management not keeping any of their future stars resulting in the Expos alienting a once plentiful fan base (sound familiar, Peter Angelos?) and having mediocre performance on the field due to a roster full of young, inexperienced (i.e., low paid) players.