How 'bout in the last 20 years?????
I say Sabatini was the most overrated player, 1 measly slam and great looks not withstanding. Any other ideas??

Well Sports Illustrated thought Steffi Graf was the most overrated of all time. I tend to disagree.

I would say Margaret Court as she's won more Slams than anyone, yet no one ever discusses her in terms of "best ever" but that's not the last 20 years.

So Sabatini sounds good.

While I agree that Steffi's career did benefit greatly from Seles' absence, there's no way she's overrated. Her results speak for themselves...and just watching her hit that killer forehand or those wicked backhand slices tell the whole story. She was a truly great player.

Even during her career, Sabatini was known for her sometimes uninspired efforts...but since she did win only one slam, I don't think you can call her overrated...more like under-realized...

I wonder if one day Hingis will be called overrated? It would be wrong in my mind but she's lost so many times the last three years...I also think that Serena Williams had better start winning more titles soon if she wants to escape staying in her sister's shadow...

The minute I saw this topic, I knew someone would mention my girl. It's ironic, too, because I've been discussing Gabriela's rep as an underachiever -- or overrated or whatever you want to call it -- with someone in my tennis league in relation to an article in our newsletter. ANYWAY, this was my official response to him (and, yes, I'm aware that I'm a freak):

Gabriela Sabatini was not the greatest champion ever to pick up a racquet. Sabatini's career is nonetheless plenty impressive when left to stand on its own, free of outside expectations. Sabatini appeared in a whopping 18 Grand Slam semifinals and retired with 27 career titles, including the 1990 U.S. Open and two season-ending Virginia Slims championships. Despite winning only a single Slam title, Gabriela Sabatini was a major presence on the tour for the duration of her career, which is more than can be said for other 'one slam wonders' like Iva Majoli or Jana Novotna. Hailed as "part princess and part prizefighter," a woman who "play[ed] masculine tennis in a totally feminine way," Sabatini was worldwide the most popular woman ever to play the game. Her mystique and ability to win gave Sabatini a presence in women's tennis that was far more substantial than that of even some players with multiple Slam titles like Mary Pierce or the now wilted Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario. The people who label Gabriela an underachiever are simply projecting a disappointment that their own overextended expectations didn't pan out.

Sabatini's fellow greats had mixed emotions at her retirement. "[She] doesn't play like someone who's about to retire," offered Chris Evert. Martina Navratilova gushed, "[Gaby] is a true artist.... no one puts a spin on the ball the way she does. It makes me sad because my best tennis was ahead of me at age 26 and I think Gaby's might still be ahead of her." But perhaps Monica Seles best summarized the truest level of Sabatini's achievements through tennis. Discussing her stabbing in 1993 and the vote that was put to the players on whether or not she would be allowed to keep the No. 1 ranking, Seles said, "I talked to a couple of them and, of course, they say it wasn't them. But I know the truth. I know Gabriela was the one who said, 'This is not to vote for.' I will never forget that. She's a human being."

Like all human beings, Sabatini was a wealth of talent, skills, nerves, and emotions. "Maybe I did put too much pressure on myself," she said. "I made the mistake of believing that if I just won tennis matches, everything else would be okay." In claiming her own identity, in leaving the sport on her own terms and certain of her accomplishments rather than shamed by not attaining the false expectations of others, Sabatini discovered what most players - most people - take a lifetime to learn.

"I'm proud of what I've done; I gave it all," Sabatini said. Life's most important achievements aren't always measured by the number of trophies on your mantle. Vamos, Gaby. Vamos.

Certainly Kournikova will go down as the most over-publicized, if not the most overrated.

Steffi Graf overrated?? How ridiculous. When did SI make that impaired judgment? Think I'd have to agree about Sabatini. She was being hyped as sliced bread when she was 14, but ended up pretty much as toast.

Conchita Martinez is another player who seems overrated to me.

Sports Illustarted's naming Steffi Graf as Most Overrated was as much for shock value and to stir up some debate. Steffi's place in the game was solidified by the time Monica came around. Somebody always comes along and surpasses the previous legend. Billie Jean got knocked off by Evert, who was taken down by Navratilova, who was overpowered by Graf. Graf did benefit from Seles' absence, but she had a bunch of Slams before that.

As much as I like her, I'd have to say Pam Shriver is most overrated. She only played in one Grand Slam final and that was her first year on tour at the US Open. That serve and volley game should have at least gotten her to a Wimbledon final or two. Lesser thought of players like Zina Garrison, Jana Novotna, Andrea Jaeger, Conchita Martinez and Arantxa Sanchez Vicario all at least reached the finals of the one Slam that was seemingly made for Shriver's game. And in doubles, she was Peter Fleming to Navratilova's McEnroe. Martina won a bunch of other Slams with other partners. Pam won only 1 or 2 sans Martina.

I agree with the Pam Shriver comment as well. I don't think I have seen a woman with an uglier tennis game. In contrast Gabby's game was almost too beautiful. And she was the precursor to Kournikova... good tennis (not GREAT, but good) and a beaut to boot!
So my vote goes to Pam...

For some reason Helena Sukova comes to mind here. She spent forever in the Top 10 and it boggled my mind how she stayed there given her lack of groundstokes. But she made the finals of 3 or 4 slams, so more power to her, I guess.

George, you've persuaded me. I take back my vote for Gaby and say Pam Shriver. But just to debate the Gaby issue a bit more, in the prime of her career didn't she go something like 18 or 20 months without a title? For a top player, that's a pretty lousy stretch. And I hold to my belief she never recovered from the match against Mary Jo Fernandez.

The SI issue was completely ridiculous. They also called Ali the most overrated boxer and (on a verrry personal level) called Philly the most overrated sports town.

My brother responded, "So what do you think the most overrated sports magazine is?"

Before last year I would have said Capriati. But I guess she showed me. Before 2000, it was easily Venus Williams. I have trouble calling Kournikova overrated simply because no one considers her a threat. Getting publicity isn't always the same as expected to win.

On the other hand, it's hard to say who's the most overrated in women's tennis, because unlike in the men's game, there's usually one player who dominates everyone else and who just doesn't let anyone else win. Therefore it's hard to say who's could have been better.

The men's game, since it has much more parity is so much easier to choose an overrated player. In fact, pretty much everyone not named Sampras or Agassi who's been #1 since 1993 has been overinflated. And Michael Chang sticks out in my mind.

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Lev Stone ]

I do not think the SI comment about Graf is that far in leftfield. Steffi's stats are awesome, and she could slug that forehand better than anyone. However, her overall record is distorted by a couple of facts. First, she came along at the tail-end of the Evert/Navratilova era. She was the first person to really punish the ball on the women's tour.

Then she spent her entire career playing against fields that did not offer up the greatest competition. Monica was the one true Steffi killer. If the mentally ill fan had not stabbed Monica, Steffi would not have won anywhere close to 22 Slams. (She captured nine Slams in Monica's absence.) Everyone is talking about Gaby underachieving, but she pretty much owned Steffi for a period of time in the late 80s/early 90s.

I think another piece of information that is relevant is the fact that Steffi received some gifts along the way from opponents. Gaby should have won the 91 Wimbledon final, but choked it away. Monica was "de-grunted" at the 92 Wimbledon and lost meekly. Novatna was the 93 champion, but did not want to hurt Steffi's feelings and handed her the plate. Mary Joe Fernandez outplayed her in the 93 French, but did not close out the match, etc. There are very few Evert or Navratilova or Seles Slam titles that were the result of their opponent handing over the title.

I don't want to take away from Steffi's accomplishments. Anyone who wins a Grand Slam, an Olympic gold medal, and is number one over an extended period of time is awesome. However, she is not the all-time great that her numbers would lead one to believe. Looking at her in a relative sense, her accomplishments look stronger than they actually should. I think this was SI's point.

To me, one of the most over-rated players was actually Tracy Austin. She suffered from a lot of injuries, but she only made it to two Slam finals (won both), and only made it past the QF three other times. One of her Slams came on a day when Chris Evert was under the weather. The other came as a gift from Martina -- who steamrolled her for a set and a half and then collapsed.

As George pointed out, Sports Illustrated's article regarding overrated/underrated athletes and events was to stir up debate more than anything else. I think their point was to say that Graf's Grand Slam totals were inflated due to Seles' absence, and therefore she would not have had the numbers to surpass Navratilova and Evert on the list.

So that I contribute to the actual thread topic, I would say Sabatini, Pierce, Novotna or Martinez. They obviously were/are all talented champions but if they are considered future Hall of Fame prospects (as another thread talked about), then I think we are overestimating their greatness. My opinion is that the Hall members should at least be considered a legitimate contender as best player at their peak, and I don't think any of them did that. But there are plenty of Hall examples who don't meet that criteria, so what do I know?

Oooh a Graf debate. Fun.

The fact is in 1988, with the rare exceptions (Navratilova, Evert, and probably Shriver and Gaby) the vast majority to tennis players were terrified to play Steffi. Same in 1989. Not to take away from Aranxa (who is probably one of tennis's greatest overachievers) but it's fairly common knoweldge that Steffi was suffering from menstrual cramps.

Other times she won "only" three in a year was usually because she skipped the fourth, usually the Australian.

And I wonder, if so many players choked against Graf, maybe there's a reason for that. (I don't count Wimbledon 1992 as a choke, because the British tabloid were unusually harsh on a teenage Seles for grunting, as were many of the older players.) The strategy was to attack Steffi's backhand, but (I forget who said it) one of the top players said "That doesn't really work, and it just makes her angry."

The problem with saying that only the most dominant players of their era should be in the Hall is that in women's tennis, there's a straight line of dominance and very few players could legitimately compete. What we see now with 5 or 6 players each who could theoretically dominate is a phenomenon. And that the best player (arguably) isn't #1 is unheard of.

charlie, I agree with a lot of what you say about Graf, except for: "Gaby should have won the 91 Wimbledon final, but choked it away. Monica was "de-grunted" at the 92 Wimbledon and lost meekly. Novatna was the 93 champion, but did not want to hurt Steffi's feelings and handed her the plate. Mary Joe Fernandez outplayed her in the 93 French, but did not close out the match, etc."

Isn't part of what makes winning the Grand Slams and big matches so tough is keeping it together and being able to put that final nail in your opponent's coffin? Sure, those players you cited choked, but doesn't that mean that Graf didn't? How much of winning a GS final is physical/technical (speed, serve, groundstrokes, net game) and how much is mental? Since most of the time GS finalists are relatively evenly matched in the physical/technical side of the game, the winner is whoever is stronger mentally. A lot of times, the winner of a GS is the guy who didn't choke.

I don't think Jennifer Capriati was technically the better player in the recent Oz final, but does that really take away from her title? If anything, I think it makes her accomplishment even more impressive. JCap wasn't playing great tennis, but she dug down very deep and seemingly out-willed Hingis. When Hingis had her freakout in the '99 French final, that doesn't tell me that Graf was unworthy winner, but more that Hingis deserved to lose.

I feel like I need to defend Steffi Graf a bit here. Granted she won 9 more Slams while Monica was out. But that still leaves her with 13! And she certainly would have won a few of those 9 even if Monica hadn't been stabbed. And I believe she is the only player who has won all four Grand Slams 4 times each. That is an amazing accomplishment regardless of the competition.

As for Sabatini dominating Graf for a period of time, she didn't do it when it mattered at the Slams (the exception being that US Open title).

Graf's power was second to none during her time. And as important as her physical power was her mental advantage. Much like Chris Evert during her prime, Graf NEVER gave anything away. Players who beat her had to WIN the match. Fernandez, Novotna, Sabatini didn't have the intestinal fortitude to stay with Graf. And that is the difference between a champion and a runner up.

[quote]First, she came along at the tail-end of the Evert/Navratilova era.

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[quote]If the mentally ill fan had not stabbed Monica, Steffi would not have won anywhere close to 22 Slams.

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[quote] Steffi received some gifts along the way from opponents.

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Immaterial.

It was NOT Steffi's fault if she barged in at the tail-end of a great era; Not her wrongdoing if a deranged fan stabbed Monica; Not her problem if some players feared her so much and choked.

To say that Graf was overrated is ludicrous. Pure moonshine.

[quote]Graf NEVER gave anything away. Players who beat her had to WIN the match. Fernandez, Novotna, Sabatini didn't have the intestinal fortitude to stay with Graf.

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Steffi's mental fortitude was unparalleled, unmatched, and second to none!

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: tzeile29 ]

I think we can conclusively say that Steffi Graf is not the most overrated female tennis player of all time. She certainly would have fewer grand slam titles if Seles hadn't been stabbed, that's obvious, and easy to agree upon. Her talent and her mental focus cannot be overstated, in fact...the girl had grit and steel for nerves and she proved it over and over again. And the fact that I'm a diehard Seles fan saying this, well, go on now...

I think Sanchez-Vicario and Conchita Martinez tie for the lead for having maximized their talent especially in relation to players like Seles, Graf, etc., who simply are/were greater players.

After reading these postings, I'll have to agree with choosing Margaret Court, Pam Shriver, and Tracy Austin...although since Austin's career was cut so short, it's probably unfair to include her..

I still feel that Capriati is a bit overrated..Last year, the Aussie Open was a luck dream for her with Seles, Davenport and Hingis greatly underachieving against her. This year Hingis literally choked. Even at the French Open, Cljisters pretty much blew it...Of course, many a grand slam has been won this way, so I won't underestimate JenCap's proven ability to hang around and win ugly: all props to her for that...But she's no dominating presence, not in my mind..

Oh yeah, and Gabby was just a joy to watch..

You know one thing about tennis is that because it's an individual sport, it's difficult to be REALLY overrated the way you can be in a team sport, where an individual's contribution can be difficult to establish. The players who win most of the slams are the best, and there's really no way to reasonably argue otherwise.

I'm also on the Graf is not grossly overrated bandwagon. The fact that so many of the most legendary chokes in grand slam final history occurred against her is an indication of her extraordinary will to win. Yes, Seles would have won a few more slams, but you can attack anybody's record with what ifs. Would Martina & Chris have won as many slams if Jaeger & Austin hadn't burned out so young? I suspect that being the champion she was, Graf would have found a way to beat Seles at least some of the time, just as Evert managed to win about a third of her matches against Navratilova in later years.

I'm reluctant to call Shriver the most overrated, simply because she never impressed me that much. I always thought she was kind of one-dimensional, and less promising than Austin, Jaeger and Mandlikova. Sabatini was to my mind a more disappointing player (maybe not the same as overrated). She made a huge splash at 14, and seemed to be a serious rival to Graf...yet she had no more major final appearances than Conchita Martinez, and fewer than Novotna. I loved Gaby, but her production was way below her promise. I never felt that she really wanted to be the best player in the world very badly--and that that was most of the difference between her and Graf.

And Bryan, you have a point about Serena. She is definitely in danger of being the most overrated player now. Lots of people think she's the #2 player in the world, but she has rarely made it past the quarter finals in the slams. She needs to pick it up, or she'll be the new Sabatini.

How about a vote for Andrea Jaeger, who had nothing more than a moonball backhand/forehand. Also Bette Stove seemed to be only hard serve/so-so volley.

I've watched tennis for several years now, and I'd say I've seen several fit this category. The two younger Maleeva sisters, Conchita Martinez (even though she beat Martina Navratilova at Wimbledon), Jana Novotna (to watch her choke was agony), and Amelie Mauresmo (what's up with her?). The one that bothers me most is Amelie because she has the game to beat most anybody, but she just can't seem to put it all together at the slams -- especially at the French Open. If she can pull it together again as she did in the 1999 Australian Open, then I'll erase her from my list.
As for overachievers, I think my hat goes off to Amanda Coetzer because she's about the shortest player on tour, but she manages to stay in the top 20 consistently with wins over Graf, Seles, Hingis, and nearly Venus Williams last year in the quarters of the Australian Open. She aslo reached the semis of the French and Australian Opens. The girl can play some tennis. Meghann Shaughnessy is proving to be a big overachiever, too. She's got a pretty impressive resume of wins, considering how frail she appears. So, I send kudos to both of them
These statements are just opinions, though...

Stove really wasn't such a factor against anyone that we can call her overrated. I wouldn't call Jaeger overrated just because her career was cut short. I would, however, say she is strongly in the running for unenviable title of "Best Player Never To Win A Major".

As for Amelie, I don't think she's really recovered from her choke last year at the French. There's no doubt she was playing the best tennis of anyone during the clay season. What happened to her was just sad.

I'm not sure if I would put Novotna into the overrated category. I don't think she's Hall of Fame material, but for the most part she was a very talented player who was not as talented as the top tier, and who until her very last two years couldn't find a way to beat the choke. But also, she was the nowhere near the athlete Graf was, the power hitter Seles was, or the serve-and-volleyer Navratilvoa was. Martinez is just a non-factor in my opinion. Her Wimbledon win was a shock and a fluke. I watched that match and nearly eight years later, I'm still not sure how she beat Navratilova.

The one player I always felt had the talent to win a Grand Slam, but never broke through, was Mary Joe Fernandez. Through the early to mid 90's she usually got through to the quarters or semis in the Slams, but always ran into Seles or Graf there. She always looked a bit frail, but she had surprising power. Unfortunately, a series of injuries and gynecological surgeries drove her from the game before she could fulfill her promise. Actually, as I read this I realize that didn't make her overrated, just underperforming.

A note on Graf: she's not overrated, but some of her accomplishments are. It's a given she would not have won all the titles she did from 1993 on if not for the Seles stabbing. Monica wasn't just beating her regularly, she was starting to dominate her. Steffi started the power explosion, but Seles was topping her at her own game. While I think Graf was a fine player, I wouldn't consider her one of the greats.

Geez, Ted, if you don't consider Graf one of the greats, then I'd love to see your list of top ten players.

And for the record (because it cannot be stressed enough), any player who wins the Grand Slam and then the next year wins 3 of 4, deserves some consideration for best ever.

Ted Tinling, who was ubiquitous to women's tennis but whose biggest claim to fame was as a tennis outfit designer, knew all the great champions going back to Suzanne Lenglen. He was quite fond of Steffi, and thought that she was the only person capable of beating Lenglen because she was the only person who could match her speed. e also predicted Monica Seles as the next great champion (and was very excited about her because she was so normal.) Tinling died shortly before Seles won the French Open in 1990.

And I'm just curious. Many posts back I said that I thought Margaret Court was overrated and there was practically no response. Does everyone pretty much agree with me?

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Lev Stone ]

well i for one would like to address the whole issue of monica "dominating" steffi. one cannot deny that monica dominated the wta tour between 1991 and the stabbing, however that does not mean that her record against steffi was as dominating as was her record in grand slams. if you look at their career matchups you will find that steffi had a 6-4 record. and if you look at the years between 91 and the stabbing you will find that steffi had a 3-2 record. this was a rivalry not a one sided matchup.

sure monica had won two of the last three, however both of those wins were very close 10-8 at the french and i think 6-2 at the aussie, although if you watched that match you will realize that the match was closer then the score indicated. between 90 and 92 steffi had a somewhat spotty record in grand slams at least compared to previous years. monica did beat steffi in three gs finals but the other five steffi had already lost early, or in one case didnt enter. so i think its unfair even to put these two against evert and navratilova because many many times evert lost easily and there was diffintly periods of time where navratilova "dominated" and that was never the case for either steffi or monica (except those two times they played at wimbe)and except for the first three times they played neither one won more then two matches against each other at a time.

Derek, you're absolutely right. Many tennis commentators exaggerate Seles's actual dominance over Graf pre-stabbing...While she did have a winning record over Graf during grand slams pre-stabbing, Graf had the overall winning record. But, of course, Seles won 7 out of the 8 grand slams that she had entered over that 91 to 93 period, so her dominance in women's tennis was clearly stated regardless of Steffi's results. Seles and Graf played some remarkable tennis against each other and we, as tennis fans, were robbed of several more exciting, memorable matches between these two greats. I remember how excited Graf was when she beat Seles in the 95 US Open final soon after Seles returned to the tour; Graf had something to prove and though you still have to attach an asterick to Seles's return after 28 months off the tour, Steffi was thrilled to win that final against Monica. Of course, she beat Monica in the 96 final as well...a tough loss to be sure...Monica had a couple of nice wins over Steffi before Steffi retired but, in the end, the rivalry that started in the early 90's never reached its potential because of the single, horrendous act of a fanatic Graf admirer. But, the past is the past and it no longer matters..

[quote]Originally posted by Lev Stone:
And for the record (because it cannot be stressed enough), any player who wins the Grand Slam and then the next year wins 3 of 4, deserves some consideration for best ever.

And I'm just curious. Many posts back I said that I thought Margaret Court was overrated and there was practically no response. Does everyone pretty much agree with me?

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Lev Stone ]

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Graf also won the gold at the Summer Olympics in 1988 (her Grand Slam year), and she accomplished this pre-Seles' stabbing. granted Seles wasn't a force yet, but it just shows the sheer dominance.

As for Court, I posted this topic when the SI article first came out a few months back. Court is definitely my choice as overrated of all-time. She may have the most Slams, but she is behind King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Seles in my book as she won a bunch of Australian Open titles during a time when nobody played it. She beat some woman named Jan Lehane like 5 straight years in the final. Now I'm sure Bud Collins could regale us with whimsical stories about Ms. Lehane, but c'mon. Was Court great? Undoubtedly. The gretest? Not even close.

Would someone please define "overrated" for me? It seems like a lot of these arguments are going in circles because maybe people view the word differently. Personally, I would think it means "someone who is rated too highly for what they accomplished". In that light, I would think that someone of Graf or Court's stature would more likely qualify for overrated than someone like Shriver or Sabatini. How could they be "overrated" if they never really proved themselves as all time greats in the first place? Don't you have to be rated more highly than most others to be considered "overrated"?

I don't view most of those mentioned as "overrated", because most of them never really did anything that noteworthy to think they were getting more credit than they deserved. Nope, Pam never got to another slam final after the '78 US, but has anyone really included her in the all-time greats list because of it? She did what she did, played as hard as she could, and her record speaks for itself. I personally like Pam, because I think she can be quite witty and can be the first to make fun of herself. Maybe since I see the definition of "overrated" differently, I don't understand why the label gets placed on her (or Gaby).

It's all in the definition????

I don't there's one universal definition of overrated. In the case of players like Shriver or Sabatini, it's player who were expected to achieve much more than they did because of spectacular early results. In the case of Graf and Court, it's players who have to deal with those dizzying labels like "Best of All Time" and may or may not deserve them. Actually it's funny because Navratilova is a player that none of us have mentioned, but is very much in the running for "Best of All Time." That's a very good sign.

As much as I tend to agree with the folks voting for Pam Shriver and/or the lovely Gaby, I always thought the player with the most raw ability that did the least with it was Hana Mandlikova. For those of you who don't remember her, Mandlikova moved a bit like Evonne Goolagong around the net and literally came up with some jaw-dropping angles and shotmaking. But, emotionally, Mandlikova was way too fragile and her game became erratic as hell under any pressure. Mandlikova only managed to dethrone (upset) Martina Navratilova or Chris Evert a few times at the Slams when Martina and Chrissie would open discuss their own discomfort in having to face her. Talk about potential unrealized. Hana Mandlikova, to me, is the most-overrated female tennis player of the last 20 years.

[quote]Originally posted by charliecstl:

To me, one of the most over-rated players was actually Tracy Austin. She suffered from a lot of injuries, but she only made it to two Slam finals (won both), and only made it past the QF three other times. One of her Slams came on a day when Chris Evert was under the weather. The other came as a gift from Martina -- who steamrolled her for a set and a half and then collapsed.

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wow...i did not know that. only 5 career grand slam semifinals for austin? how many complete years did she play on the tour (not counting her "comeback")?

stupid question: is tracy austin in the hall of fame?

Yep, Tracy's in the Hall of Fame....

Austin's total numbers are misleading because she had ceased to be a factor on the tour after her 19th birthday and never played the French (where she would probably have done well) or Australian as a teenager. In her salad days from 77-82 she made 6 straight U.S. open qf's, 3 semis and won twice. Her wimbledon record was not as impressive, but she had a four consecutive qf stretch and 2 semis. While she doesn't match up to the top players of all time, the only current players who had accomplished more by their 19th birthday are Hingis and Seles.

I agree that Hana was a disappointing player, more so to me than Shriver (though she accomplished far more). I always felt that part of her inconsistency was because she was a lousy percentage player. She often went for amazing breathtaking shots when she didn't need them, making unnecessary errors. But I think the fact that you preface your description of her with "for those of you who don't remember..." keeps her out of the overrated category. For someone who won four majors (and played absolutely amazing tennis at her best), Hana isn't talked about much now. I think she had the most delicate touch at the net of any player I've ever seen.

I think two Grand Slam titles gets you consideration if you've defended the title. (Pat Rafter is probably going to get in for that reason too.)

I wonder if in defining overrated, we're including underachieving players. Perhaps that's where Sabatini and Mandlikova fit best.

I nominated Shriver primarily because she was ranked in the Top 10 for ten straight years (most of her career) yet only appeared in the one Grand Slam final. I think its possible to be an underachiever AND overrated. Shriver I believe is both. I don't think Mandlikova qualifies as she is not really viewed as a great player. If you asked the casual tennis fan who has won more Grand Slams, Shriver or Mandlikova, more people would say Shriver.

I agree we're cross-pollenating overrated with underachieving; I know I was guilty of it in mentioning Mary Joe Fernandez.

On the subject of Pam Shriver, I think Pam's greatness was more as a doubles player, where she and Martina accumulated an incredible number of Grand Slam titles. Granted the argument can be made that anybody could have won with Martina as their partner, but Martina herself says she wouldn't have won as much without Pam on her side.

As for Hana Mandlikova, does anyone remember the uproar when she married an Australian man? I was never quite sure if the commotion was because she openly did it to get Australian citizenship and leave Czechoslovakia, or if it was simply the fact that it was a man. In later years Mandlikova and Jana Novotna had a fairly open romantic relationship, with Hana also serving as Jana's coach when Jana finally had her Grand Slam breakthrough. Or am I having a Pam Ewing moment and just dreamed all this?

I also recall something about Hana giving birth to twins. I know this wasn't a dream.....

Some notes on all this:

One of the reasons it seems like Seles was more dominant than Graf in the early 90s is because of the three-horse race that was going for No. 1. Sabatini was beating Graf, Graf was beating Seles, and Seles was beating Sabatini. By and large, Seles would come out the victor in these situations, because she could raise her game better than the other two. Sabatini was always weaker mentally and Graf's confidence was very low (by her standards) at the time. Between the end of 1990 and the French Open in 1992, Sabatini beat Graf in 7 of 8 matches -- the lone exception being the oh-so-painful Wimbledon final where Gaby served for it twice and was as close as two points away. Sigh.

To me, overrated is someone who everyone says is good but really isn't, whereas underachiever is someone who is very talented but doesn't "live up" to that potential.

Personally, I think it's a crime to lump Sabatini in with Martinez, Novotna, and Shriver. There are a lot of intangibles to Gaby's career that one can't ascertain by simply looking at the record books.

Finally, I want you all to know that this thread was started by my doubles partner as a joke. (He confessed over the weekend.) He wanted to conduct an experiment to see how long it would take me to stumble upon the topic and unleash a diatribe in defense of Sabatini. I fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Gaga4Gaby ]

The notion that Graf is overrated is absurd fantasy. There has never been a more balanced champion in tennis. Seven Wimbledons and six French opens - she excelled on all surfaces. Seles had success against her briefly in the early nineties, but their matches were almost always close except on grass, where Monica won four games in two matches (in contrast, Steffi and Monica were 3-3 on clay).

Steffi is the greatest of all time because of her intensity and commitment to the game and her willingness to push herself beyond physical limits. My favorite Steff story occurred at Wimbledon in 1993. We all know about Novotna's choke, but Sports Illustrated reported an facinating side story. Most people had been anticipating a Graf/Navratilove final that year, but Jana upset Martina to make the final. After winning the final, Steffi was so disappointed with her own level of play and so anxious to prove herself against Navratilova, that she sent Rennae Stubbs to Martina's rented house to try and convince her to play Steffi in their own version of a final on a practice court. Martina had gone out to play golf and the match never happened. The next day Graf was too ill from all the anti-inflammatory medication she had been taking for a shoulder injury, to make it to the Champions Ball.

Can you think of any other champion that was so intense and driven to greatness that they would do something like this? I doubt it. We also saw how emotional Steffi actually was in the trophy ceremony that day. She was excited at first, but upon seeing Novotna's devestation, she started crying herself. In fact, if you watch the tape of the match, when Jana comes back from her meltdown with the Duchess, Steffi puts her arm around her and lays her head on her shoulder. Easy enough to do when you've won, but how many would have been too wrapped up in their own joy to even notice their opponenet's grief?

Finally, an interesting little note on Graf's career. Her grand slam record is bracketed by thrilling and emotional wins at the French Open over talented players named Martina ('87 and '99). This statistic provides an excellent exclamation point to a the greatest career of all time.

Just for the record, not to demean Steffi, but I looked it up on the Official ITF site which has head to head stats.

In the era of Monica's domiance 1990-1993 the two of them played 7 times, with Monica holding a 4-3 lead. Monica won twice in 1990, Steffi won twice in 1991, they split (1 each) in 1992 - both were Grand Slam finals, and Monica won in 1993. In Grand Slam finals, Monica led 3-1. Before 1990, Steffi won 3 of 3 meetings. After Monica's return 4 of 5.

And Jupiter, that was a very heartening story about Steffi Graf. She's a champion's champion in every way.

The problem with the term overrated is that it's so hard to determine how people are rated to begin with. I was shocked to read the assertion that most casual tennis players would think Shriver was a better player than Mandlikova. I'm not saying he's wrong--perhaps most would--but I always thought Hana was the better player, the best of her generation. If you'd asked me in 1981, I would have picked her to be the dominant player of the '80's. So it's hard to say who's overrated, when it's not clear what the "consensus" ratings are.

And while I agree with gaga4gaby that Sabatini was better than Conchita Martinez (watching them play it would be hard to think otherwise), the sad fact is Sabatini didn't accomplish that much more. I also think Mandlikova was better than Sanchez-Vicario, but hats off to Arantxa, she won just as many majors.