By leaving, Epstein breaks a longtime link with Red Sox president Larry Lucchino.
Frankly they need the highly underpaid Epstein a hell of a lot more than the tempramental, hard to work for Lucchino. I'm actually ready to cry at Lucchino's dismanteling of the Sox over the last year.
The worst part is watching all the absolutely self serving media leaks and news articals Lucchino is spoon feeding to the press over the last few monthes.
It's time for Lucchino to go... something I never thought I would say a year ago.
Great artical on ESPN
R
[Thread title modified for clarity - Outsports moderator]
[ November 02, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: m1 ]
Full Version: Sitting Shiva for the Red Sox - Theo Epstein Resigns
Posted by Munson Man (Member # 569) on October 31, 2005, 03:44 PM:
Wow, that is a shocker! Manny wants to be traded (again), Theo walks, Damon opts for free agency - does ANYONE want to play for the Team from New England??!!
Posted by canmark (Member # 149) on October 31, 2005, 04:19 PM:
Epstein is only 31 years old, walks away from his dream job, and... what's next?
He's kind of young to be needing a break from baseball. On the other hand, I'm not sure anyone can top breaking an 86-year curse at the age of 31. Maybe he's already washed up.
Posted by Adam (Member # 75) on October 31, 2005, 05:20 PM:
From what I had understood, the Red Sox met all Epstein's requests/demands, so what went wrong? Were internal relations that bad? LA sportstalk says Theo may go work with his brother as a social worker for a bit.
And, with Epstein leaving and Manny (being Manny) asking for a trade, re-signing Damon becomes more important, if for no other reason than public relations. Johnny should be able to back up the Brinks truck.
~Adam
Posted by Munson Man (Member # 569) on October 31, 2005, 06:08 PM:
According to what I read online, Boston offered Theo triple the salary - $1.5 million per year. However, he was adamant about getting $2.5 million annually, which was what the team offered Billy Beane a couple of years ago.
Posted by fenwayguy (Member # 14) on October 31, 2005, 06:37 PM:
Epstein's statement. Boston Globe breaking story (still showing a sidebar link to this morning's \"Epstein, Red Sox agree on a three-year contract\").
Some on the Sons of Sam Horn discussion board posit that a strained relationship between Epstein and Red Sox president Larry Lucchino played a significant role in his decision, and that yesterday's Dirty Laundry story by Globe sportswriter Dan Shaughnessy, and last week's press leak about the ongoing Manny Ramirez negotiation, may have brought things to a head. Lucchino is suspected of having been the source.
Edited to add:
Commentary from Boston Herald sports blogger Michael Silverman, which Canmark linked above: \"Epstein had done some agonizing soul-searching the past few days, torn between staying at the job he had always coveted since his childhood days in Brookline and leaving because of intra-organizational politics and power struggles that he ultimately decided he could not live with any longer.\"
Posted by Joe in Philly (Member # 6) on October 31, 2005, 10:17 PM:
This part of the \"Dirty Laundry\" column doesn't seem to ring true:
And if Theo can't handle in-office politics, well, I have no idea where he can ever find a politics-free workplace -- inside or outside of sports.
Posted by Jamesy (Member # 3774) on November 01, 2005, 03:42 AM:
Great point Joe! The grass isn't always greener but at 31 and has achieved what he has already he can grow his own grass.
Posted by Bill W (Member # 90) on November 01, 2005, 06:23 AM:
I would expect the in-office politics are less onerous in at least 25 of the MLB team offices than they are in Boston.
Hurrah for a guy who implemented true smartball (albeit with a big payroll) with a team that had been badly run for so long. The nuts and bolts of how the 2004 Bosox were built are detailed in Baseball Prospectus' splendid new book Mind Game, which should be on your winter reading list.
Posted by batboy (Member # 773) on November 01, 2005, 09:09 AM:
I think Theo Epstein can write his ticket to any baseball position. But which GM jobs are still opened? Is the Dodgers still looking? I bet he would be a front-runner for that.
Keep in mind that Epstein is \"the new generation\" of managers, so maybe he just didn't want to put up with all the in-house office politics of the older generation?
Posted by Adam (Member # 75) on November 01, 2005, 09:15 AM:
The Dodgers' GM post is still open but Paul Depodesta--just fired--and Theo Epstein are cut from the same cloth (young, never played the game, believers in \"Moneyball\") and the McCourts (and their closet advisor, the homphobic Tommy Lasorda) are more than likely looking in other directions.
~Adam
Posted by Bill W (Member # 90) on November 01, 2005, 09:33 AM:
Christina Kahrl on BP today nails it:
[ November 02, 2005, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: m1 ]
Wow, that is a shocker! Manny wants to be traded (again), Theo walks, Damon opts for free agency - does ANYONE want to play for the Team from New England??!!
Posted by canmark (Member # 149) on October 31, 2005, 04:19 PM:
Epstein is only 31 years old, walks away from his dream job, and... what's next?
QUOTE
A next step for Epstein, 31, remains unknown, although he has told associates that he may leave baseball and look for another line of work. The Dodgers, Phillies and Devil Rays currently have GM vacancies but it is believed that Epstein is likely to take a year off from baseball before considering a return.
Posted by Joe in Philly (Member # 6) on October 31, 2005, 04:41 PM: He's kind of young to be needing a break from baseball. On the other hand, I'm not sure anyone can top breaking an 86-year curse at the age of 31. Maybe he's already washed up.
Posted by Adam (Member # 75) on October 31, 2005, 05:20 PM:
From what I had understood, the Red Sox met all Epstein's requests/demands, so what went wrong? Were internal relations that bad? LA sportstalk says Theo may go work with his brother as a social worker for a bit.
And, with Epstein leaving and Manny (being Manny) asking for a trade, re-signing Damon becomes more important, if for no other reason than public relations. Johnny should be able to back up the Brinks truck.
~Adam
Posted by Munson Man (Member # 569) on October 31, 2005, 06:08 PM:
According to what I read online, Boston offered Theo triple the salary - $1.5 million per year. However, he was adamant about getting $2.5 million annually, which was what the team offered Billy Beane a couple of years ago.
Posted by fenwayguy (Member # 14) on October 31, 2005, 06:37 PM:
Epstein's statement. Boston Globe breaking story (still showing a sidebar link to this morning's \"Epstein, Red Sox agree on a three-year contract\").
Some on the Sons of Sam Horn discussion board posit that a strained relationship between Epstein and Red Sox president Larry Lucchino played a significant role in his decision, and that yesterday's Dirty Laundry story by Globe sportswriter Dan Shaughnessy, and last week's press leak about the ongoing Manny Ramirez negotiation, may have brought things to a head. Lucchino is suspected of having been the source.
QUOTE
I'm convinced [Shaughnessy's] column (with LL's fingerprints all over it) threw Theo for a loop.
My favorite SoSH smartass post so far: \"The next GM of the Red Sox will be a target like no other. I already want him fired.\"QUOTE
Theo HAD to read that (the column) and just say, \"how the eff can I work for a guy who would put this nonsense out there? This is disingenous, calculating, malignant, and manipulative... and I'm not gonna stand for it anymore.\"
So: KUDOS TO THEO. THIS IS THE MOST PRINCIPLED STAND I'VE SEEN IN SPORTS--OR IN BUSINESS--FOR A LONG TIME.
I'm disappointed, shocked--and damned proud of Theo all at the same time.
Strangely, while it makes me anxious about the near-term fate of my Sox, I find it reassuring that there are young men of high ideals like Theo.
So: KUDOS TO THEO. THIS IS THE MOST PRINCIPLED STAND I'VE SEEN IN SPORTS--OR IN BUSINESS--FOR A LONG TIME.
I'm disappointed, shocked--and damned proud of Theo all at the same time.
Strangely, while it makes me anxious about the near-term fate of my Sox, I find it reassuring that there are young men of high ideals like Theo.
Edited to add:
Commentary from Boston Herald sports blogger Michael Silverman, which Canmark linked above: \"Epstein had done some agonizing soul-searching the past few days, torn between staying at the job he had always coveted since his childhood days in Brookline and leaving because of intra-organizational politics and power struggles that he ultimately decided he could not live with any longer.\"
Posted by Joe in Philly (Member # 6) on October 31, 2005, 10:17 PM:
This part of the \"Dirty Laundry\" column doesn't seem to ring true:
QUOTE
When Theo's assistant Josh Byrnes (hired by Arizona as GM Friday) made a deal with Colorado, Epstein thought he had a better deal with another club and requested that Lucchino fall on the sword and invoke the ownership approval clause to kill the Rockies deal. Accustomed to people hating him, Lucchino took the fall, killing the deal and saving Epstein.
Wasn't Theo the boss? Why wouldn't he have just said to Colorado \"there's no deal unless I approve it, he's only an assistant and I'm the GM, so there's no deal\"?And if Theo can't handle in-office politics, well, I have no idea where he can ever find a politics-free workplace -- inside or outside of sports.
Posted by Jamesy (Member # 3774) on November 01, 2005, 03:42 AM:
Great point Joe! The grass isn't always greener but at 31 and has achieved what he has already he can grow his own grass.
Posted by Bill W (Member # 90) on November 01, 2005, 06:23 AM:
I would expect the in-office politics are less onerous in at least 25 of the MLB team offices than they are in Boston.
Hurrah for a guy who implemented true smartball (albeit with a big payroll) with a team that had been badly run for so long. The nuts and bolts of how the 2004 Bosox were built are detailed in Baseball Prospectus' splendid new book Mind Game, which should be on your winter reading list.
Posted by batboy (Member # 773) on November 01, 2005, 09:09 AM:
I think Theo Epstein can write his ticket to any baseball position. But which GM jobs are still opened? Is the Dodgers still looking? I bet he would be a front-runner for that.
Keep in mind that Epstein is \"the new generation\" of managers, so maybe he just didn't want to put up with all the in-house office politics of the older generation?
Posted by Adam (Member # 75) on November 01, 2005, 09:15 AM:
The Dodgers' GM post is still open but Paul Depodesta--just fired--and Theo Epstein are cut from the same cloth (young, never played the game, believers in \"Moneyball\") and the McCourts (and their closet advisor, the homphobic Tommy Lasorda) are more than likely looking in other directions.
~Adam
Posted by Bill W (Member # 90) on November 01, 2005, 09:33 AM:
Christina Kahrl on BP today nails it:
QUOTE
In case you've missed the events of the last 72 hours, counterrevolution is the fashion, and as our own Will Carroll has put it, the weapon of choice is the White Sox. Skip however smug and frequently fact-free interpretations of why the White Sox won are--maybe it's just me, but \"pitching, defense and the three-run home run\" was Earl Weaver's formula, not Gene Mauch's. However much Ozzieball is a put-up job, it's manna from heaven for the industry's old guard, a generation of men grown jealous in recent years over the credit heaped upon the game's up-and-coming wave of general managers.
However unnecessary the \"rivalry\" between old-school baseball and the next generation of management techniques could and should have been, that struggle has taken on a life of its own. In this sort of contest, the scorecard is not one that counts whether DePo and Theo were both General Managers of teams in the postseason in 2004, or one that records that Epstein's Red Sox did something that Gorman's or Duquette's did not. Success is apparently not the measure of success, it is instead what the now-unfashionable smart kids were damned well supposed to deliver, and the moment that they didn't, they were there to be scapegoated...
In Larry Lucchino, we have a man who long ago cultivated the legend that he's somehow solely responsible for Camden Yards, and devil take those who remember otherwise. Especially those who might recall his stated desire from the time, which was to tear down the warehouse that today is the signature feature of Baltimore's ballpark. Such a man is jealous of his place in history, coveting the past and the present as comfortably as he feigns disinterest in taking up Czar Bud's scepter the day after the car salesman steps down. In his need to portray himself as the father of victory, he has instead become like Cronus, so jealous of his prerogatives that he would rather consume the future than truly shepherd it. He came to Boston with a reputation for self-promotion, and this latest incident makes it plain that in Lucchino's world, he's the star of his own show.
However unnecessary the \"rivalry\" between old-school baseball and the next generation of management techniques could and should have been, that struggle has taken on a life of its own. In this sort of contest, the scorecard is not one that counts whether DePo and Theo were both General Managers of teams in the postseason in 2004, or one that records that Epstein's Red Sox did something that Gorman's or Duquette's did not. Success is apparently not the measure of success, it is instead what the now-unfashionable smart kids were damned well supposed to deliver, and the moment that they didn't, they were there to be scapegoated...
In Larry Lucchino, we have a man who long ago cultivated the legend that he's somehow solely responsible for Camden Yards, and devil take those who remember otherwise. Especially those who might recall his stated desire from the time, which was to tear down the warehouse that today is the signature feature of Baltimore's ballpark. Such a man is jealous of his place in history, coveting the past and the present as comfortably as he feigns disinterest in taking up Czar Bud's scepter the day after the car salesman steps down. In his need to portray himself as the father of victory, he has instead become like Cronus, so jealous of his prerogatives that he would rather consume the future than truly shepherd it. He came to Boston with a reputation for self-promotion, and this latest incident makes it plain that in Lucchino's world, he's the star of his own show.
[ November 02, 2005, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: m1 ]
QUOTE
Joe in Philly:
Wasn't Theo the boss? Why wouldn't he have just said to Colorado \"there's no deal unless I approve it, he's only an assistant and I'm the GM, so there's no deal\"?
According to the Shaughnessy story, Lucchino would have had to exercise "the ownership approval clause to kill the Rockies deal." Since Lucchino was reputedly the source for the story, it's not clear that that's actually the case. Regardless, it seems likely that he influenced (bullied?) Epstein to stay out of it.Wasn't Theo the boss? Why wouldn't he have just said to Colorado \"there's no deal unless I approve it, he's only an assistant and I'm the GM, so there's no deal\"?
[ November 02, 2005, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: fenwayguy ]
From the Curse of the Bambino to the Curse of the Lucchino.
~Adam
~Adam
Well, Theo had his big press conference today and said it just wasn't the right fit. Every media outlet in town present and he says absolutely nothing of importance as regards his true reasons for leaving. We'll need to wait a few weeks for the real story, but I suspect that, as postulated, he'd had it with Lucchino. However, if that's the case, why even negotiate. Lucchino's not going anywhere, so whether thay pay you $1.2M or $1.5M what's the difference? You'll still have Larry to put up with. Just go already. If he was negotiating for a more powerfully defined GM role, it didn't work. Henry loves/trusts Lucchino. Epstein is the wunderkind of the moment. It's arguable whether he made the Sox or the Sox made him.
Since he arrived, every gay baseball fan in this town has been drooling over him. I didn't get it myself. Granted he's not fifty (not that there's anything wrong with that), neither is he particularly unattractive. I'd call him real average myself.
[ November 02, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Torgauer ]
Since he arrived, every gay baseball fan in this town has been drooling over him. I didn't get it myself. Granted he's not fifty (not that there's anything wrong with that), neither is he particularly unattractive. I'd call him real average myself.
[ November 02, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Torgauer ]
QUOTE
Torgauer:
Since he arrived, every gay baseball fan in this town has been drooling over him. I didn't get it myself. Granted he's not fifty (not that there's anything wrong with that), neither is he particularly unattractive. I'd call him real average myself.
I think he's quite a hottie. I actually get a gay vibe from him but I can't afford to pay him 2.5 million a year to be my personal GM. I just can't justify it.Since he arrived, every gay baseball fan in this town has been drooling over him. I didn't get it myself. Granted he's not fifty (not that there's anything wrong with that), neither is he particularly unattractive. I'd call him real average myself.
[ November 02, 2005, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Maddog ]
I just had to LOL at the title of this thread...I think some of the guys here need to pitch a sports center satire show to Comedy Central....Anyway, I think Theo got out at the right time He already has his WS title. No sittin' shiva for Epstein, dudes!
I've been wanting to ask this, but was hoping somebody else would... but what does "sitting shiva" mean in this context (ie. "Sitting Shiva for the Red Sox - Theo Epstein Resigns")?
Sitting shiva is what you do in the Jewish religion after someone passes away, it is family, friends, etc. gathering together for a specified # of days (usually 3 days or more, depending on how religious you are) while mourning the death of a loved one.
I would assume the title of this thread refers to the period of mourning (and sadness) that Red Sox fans are experiencing with Theo resigning.
I would assume the title of this thread refers to the period of mourning (and sadness) that Red Sox fans are experiencing with Theo resigning.
Oh canmark, you're going to be sorry you asked. Shiva (translates to seven) refers to a week-long period of lamentation and reflection that transpire in the first wseek after a funeral. Observant Jews don't work, shave, have sex, listen to music, watch TV, do laundry, or otherwise engage in anything that could be considered joyous. In many homes, mirrors are turned to the walls (or covered) to discourage vanity, mourners sit on the floor or take cushions off the sofa, and even parts of the Torah are avoided for being too upbeat (the Book of Job is acceptable.) Traditionally, mourners don't even leave their home to attend synagogue, so the community makes sure that enough people show up at the home to ensure that traditional services there.
When my mom died, we had shiva at our home with all my immediate relatives staying for the whole week. Poor Kyle spent pretty much all that week running errands for us...thought he was going to kill one of us and then have to go through shiva all over again!
~Adam
When my mom died, we had shiva at our home with all my immediate relatives staying for the whole week. Poor Kyle spent pretty much all that week running errands for us...thought he was going to kill one of us and then have to go through shiva all over again!
~Adam
I almost sat shiva when Shawn Green got married. Or was it because he didn't go to the Yankees ?
?
I think there's something to Epstein's comments about not having the passion for the Red Sox anymore. So I think either he's tired of Lucchino but still respects him as a mentor or he's not excited about how the team was shaping up and/or is shaping up for the next season. So it might be a situation of jumping boat before things really gets bad. Theo looks like a smart, hot, young thing, so he probably can smell a winner and maybe it's not the Red Sox's turn for another 88 years. wink
I wonder what Theo's boyfriend thinks of him leaving the Sox. Yes he does have one, that may be where his privacy issue is coming from with Red Sox Nation. I met them both at a Lowell Spinners game. His husband is very sexy.
[ November 03, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: TommyC84 ]
[ November 03, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: TommyC84 ]
Well there's the answer. He wanted to spend more time at home with his sexy hubby. Heaven knows I quit my job everytime I have a sexy hubby! (I'm working now... 
)
)
QUOTE
TommyC84
I wonder what Theo's boyfriend thinks of him leaving the Sox. Yes he does have one, that may be where his privacy issue is coming from with Red Sox Nation.
You mean Wally was stepping out on his husband and family with Theo? Hold the presses! Call Dan Shaughnessy! I wonder what Theo's boyfriend thinks of him leaving the Sox. Yes he does have one, that may be where his privacy issue is coming from with Red Sox Nation.
The camp followers at On th DL seem to suggest that Theo was something of a player and may have even more time and energy to devote toward his extra-curricular activities.
QUOTE
Which recently departed GM constantly used his good-looks and status to win the affection of numerous ladies? Don't be fooled by his serious demeanor: he liked to party and have fun as much as his team did. And now that he's (temporarily?) out of baseball, don't be surprised if he's hitting the town even more than before...
It's a great smokescreen for him.
Remember Shea Hillenbrand outed Theo on WEEI a few years back when he was traded out of town. He called him a fag.
[ November 04, 2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: TommyC84 ]
Remember Shea Hillenbrand outed Theo on WEEI a few years back when he was traded out of town. He called him a fag.
[ November 04, 2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: TommyC84 ]
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