A great article from TennisWeek.com about Steffi Graf, her career, her upcoming induction into the Hall of Fame ...

Class of Her Class

Classy of YOU to post, Gaga...

Why, thank you!

Funny enough, people often misinterpret my personal idolization of Gaby, but I suffer no illusions. Gaby was/is my favorite, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing that Steffi Graf had an amazing career (often at the expense of my girl) and is possibly the best woman ever to pick up a racquet ... although I think I fall into the Martina Navratilova camp on that debate. Still, Steffi's definitely top two. And Steffi grew up to be a very classy, very respectable human being ... besides being a great champion on the court.

But the most important thing is that Gabriela is way prettier.

Truth, brother Gaga, truth!

Gosh I'm not sure how you determine who was better, Steffi or Martina? Guess I'd have to go with Martina only because of how Seles had started to dominate Graf before she was stabbed. Steffi would have many fewer Slams and overall titles if Seles had not been attacked. But I think I appreciate Graf much more now than I did back then.

I don't think it's fair to fault Steffi's accomplishments because of the Seles stabbing ... true though that argument may be. For all we know, Monica could have gone into a major slump and not won a title for two and a half years ... oh, no, wait ... that was Gaby!

The reason I go with Martina as the greatest player ever is a matter of influence: (1) she changed the way female tennis players approach the game, igniting the interest in fitness and working out that became the basis for the modern game; (2) she's won more titles than any man or woman ever, including the most number of singles titles at Wimbledon, the sport's most prestigious tournament; (3) her doubles greatness adds a layer to her legacy that Steffi Graf doesn't have (despite having won Wimbledon in 1988 with the fabulous Miss Sabatini); (4) Martina Navratilova is pushing 50 and still plays professional, competitive tennis and wins titles. That's four decades of pro tennis success!

Steffi Graf's career comes close and, if you're going to solely consider singles, I can see giving the nod to Steffi. But for my money, Martina edges Steffi as the greatest female tennis player ever precisely because she extends beyond her singles greatness to all facets of the game, on and off the court.

Gabriela Sabatini, however ... prettier than both of them!

Gaby... one of the truly beautiful women in tennis.

Martina (the original.. not Hingis) probably the greatest player of all time.... still playing and winning at the highest level. She won her Fed cup doubles match last week.

Steffi also a hall of famer. But I agree with the others. Seles was not intimidated by Steffi and proved she had the game to beat Graf consistently. What Seles had as her greatest weapon (more potent than her backhand) was her mental tenacity and toughness. That girl was more gritty than just about anyone I ccan think of.
THAT is what was destroyed by the stabbing, her mental toughness. and from that she never recovered.

many people say that baseball sluggers who took steroids should have an asterisk placed next to them in the hall of fame. Likewise, Steffi should have a notation about the stabbing committed in her name. NO, Graf is not to blame for Parche's actions. But no one can deny that Graf's winning numbers would have been greatly diminished had Seles naver been stabbed.

I like this thread ... somehow, I've managed to start a discussion that is legit and people are making good points, yet every so often a compliment to Gaby is sprinkled in for good measure. It's my dream thread!

I will start some controversy with this comment: if you want to talk in terms of pure talent, of being able to hit every shot and do anything you want with a tennis ball as opposed to the hard numbers of a career, I do think Gabriela Sabatini is the most talented woman ever to play the game. This is a woman who completely changed her style of play after years of success on the WTA tour ... she basically went from baseline looper to all-court net rusher over the course of a fortnight at the US Open in 1990. Players add new shots here and there, improving minute things about their games every day. But Gaby was already an elite player and she underwent a stylistic overhaul and made it look ridiculously easy, becoming more successful than she already was at the time. She could hit any style of ball - usually topspin, but also slice, and hard and flat when the mood came upon her. She could stay back, she could play the net, do a little of both, whatever. And, most surprisingly, she could serve hard when she wanted to as well ... getting up to around 100 mph at times. She just didn't go for those serves much, preferring to spin the serve into play. And she has a shot named after her ... the Sa-between-knee!

Utterly Fabulous, that's what I say. And did I mention pretty?

I agree, ung, about the asterisk. Not her fault, but she had a different (better) career because of it. It only adds salt to the wound that that exact result was intended by the nutcase wielding the knife. Not something I'd want to live with if I were Graf.

So asterisked props to Graf. But there was a little historical revisionism going on in her remarks in that article that kind of irked me -- lauding her rivalries with Sabatini and S-Vicario, and then seeming to lump Seles in with Hingis and Davenport. C'mon! Graf totally dominated Sabatini and S-Vicario throughout their careers -- she's 29-11 against Sabatini and 28-8 against Arantxa. To give Graf the benefit of the doubt, maybe she just meant that the rivalries lasted longer and she faced them more frequently over the years. But Seles was the first player she faced that didn't fold up and go home, unlike even Hingis (7-2) and Davenport (8-6, but 5-1 in their first 6 matches). The sad thing about the aborted Graf-Seles rivalry is that they only played 10 times before the '93 knifing (and Steffi was only 6-4 up on Monica at that point). But overall I agree with Graf -- her most intense (and evenly-balanced) rivalry had to be with Navratilova. They were 9-9 career, with a great see-saw record; Graf was 3-6 the first nine matches, and 6-3 the second half. As I look at the upcoming French, Wimbledon, U.S. Open prospects, I find myself wanting to revisit those earlier matches rather than watch the current ones.

What Steffi says is that she had great battles with Gaby, which is 100% true, even though she came out the winner 29 of 40 times.

The Sabatini/Graf series was interesting, it just didn't seem to manifest itself on the biggest stages as often. But the fact remains that Gabriela owned Steffi in the early 1990s - winning 7 of 8 encounters from the end of 1990 through 1992, including five matches in a row. Gaby almost won the 8th match, too, that being the 1991 Wimbledon final where she served for the match twice and came as close as two points away. The only other player to ever beat Steffi that many times consecutively was Evert, when Graf first joined the tour ... it was a completely different thing for Sabatini to suddenly start beating Steffi in the early 90s. Eleven losses is also the most matches Graf lost to any single opponent. Over half of their forty matches went to three sets, regardless of the victor.

Steffi didn't like playing Gabriela. All that topspin pulled Graf too far off the baseline to hit winners, Gaby was strong enough to hang with Graf from the backcourt, plus Steffi cheated over to the forehand side so extremely that it opened up Gaby's best shot ... the down-the-line backhand.

[ April 29, 2004, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Gaga4Gaby ]

I remember those Steffi-Gaby matches always going three sets. For that reason, the media kept trying to play up the "rivalry factor" between these young up and comers.

In one press conference, Graf replied to yet another "rivalry" question, "I've won 30 out of 33 matches against her. Does that sound like a rivalry to you?" I didn't like Graf much after that.

as for Evert's win streak against Graf, I believe that was when Graf was 13 or 14 years old.

[ April 29, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: ung ]

Steffi had won their first 11 matches. That's when she said 11-0 wasn't a rivalry.

I didn't like her much that day either. But, when Gaby retired, Steffi said, "We had a great rivalry over the years and I will miss seeing her." So, I forgive her!

Seles might have lost her competitive edge anyway. Who knows? You can diss anybody with what ifs. What if Andrea Jaeger and Tracy Austin hadn't fallen apart physically before reaching maturity? Would Martina & Chris still have won as many slams? Shall we asterisk Margaret Court's majors because a lot of top players didn't go to the Australian consistently in those days? How about Hingis--she won three of her slams in a year in which Graf was injured. Oh, and we'll have to asterisk JHH's Oz and US Open for injuries. Serena won the first of her streak when JHH was sick and her last when Venus was injured. Jen won her last slam when Serena was injured.

First of all, Steffi had already won 11 majors by the time Monica was stabbed. Monica's run was very impressive, but there's no guarantee Monica would have continued to dominate the majors. If we begin the era of Seles dominance with her win over Steffi at Hamburg in 2000, her record against Graf from there to the stabbing was 4-3...hardly overwhelming. Furthermore, Graf was not playing her best tennis at that time. She was 4-8 against Sabatini in that span, and 1-2 vs Navratilova. She lost more matches in 1991 than she did in 1987-1989 combined, and not one of them was to Monica. Graf's return to winning buckets of majors was partly due to Monica's disappearance, but also because Steffi returned to form.

All props to Graf, even from this committed Seles fan; but I remind you that in 2000 Frank Deford writing in SI placed Graf on his most overated athlete list. I tend to (want) to agree. too busy now to find it and post it, but it's out there.

Besides Monica's toughness, she was also known for taking the ball very early and hitting it harder than any woman had done before.

Graf deserves a place in the Hall of Fame for her legs if nothing else, and for playing in pearl earrings.

Frank Deford picked Steffi to be controversial. It was a ballsy, but flawed, choice. His basic argument was Graf amassed so many titles because of circumstance - Navratilova and Evert being past their prime; Sabatini being a "frail competitor"; Seles being stabbed. He essentially says she didn't have any competition.

I would argue that Steffi was so great that she made it appear as though she didn't have much competition.

On yet another occasion, i will have to agree with G4G.

The debate about whether Graf was the greatest is interesting, will always be inconclusive and there is nothing I can add.

At the risk of being trivial is there a female tennis player, or for that matter another world class athlete, with a better set of legs than Graf??

Additionally,I cannot ever remember her being out of shape or losing matches because of her lack of conditioning. I saw her this year in Melbourne at the Australian Open,hitting with her husband, up on her toes as usual, and she looked awesome. Even after being retired for a number of years and two kids, I believe she would slip back into the Top 10 easily.

The point I am making is that she trained intelligently, understood diet,was mentally tough and she always properly prepared.

The ultimate professional.

comparing Monica's stabbing to jaeger's and Austin's career ending injuries is not valid. Why not?

Because injuries caused by improper technique, inadequate training and/or physical breakdown due to playing too much too young are all things that were controlled by the player herself. Serena suffers from physical breakdown due to paying too much too young. Venus is burnt out and wants to be a designer.... these aren't things to cause an asterisk in Justine's bio because all the injured players could have taken a different course.

Monica's stabbing was not something she could control. She was stabbed because she had supplanted Steffi as the top player in the world!

all you Graf supporters can point to stats and whatnot to say Monica didn't dominate Graf. But if you think carefully (and honestly) you have to admit that Monica by then was dominating the entire tennis world. That's why she was #1 when stabbed.

I think that Steffi should be considered the greatest female singles tennis player of all time because of the following:

1. She won the Grand Slam- "Golden Slam"- which Navratilova was unable to do.

2. Steffi's Grand Slam wins were spread out amongtst all of the surfaces- whereas Navratilova's better majority occurred on her most favorite surface at Wimbledon. Steffi won at least 4 titles at each of the big four.


Overall, I would give Navratilova clearly the best doubles player and best female grass court player of all time- but Steffi was a better all-surface player and that is shown in the variety of her grand slam surface wins- not with almost half of them on the same surface.

I don't think any consensus on "greatest player ever" will ever be reached and I hate to veer off topic, but.....you have to consider Maureen Conolly in any such discussion. She was the first woman to win the Grand Slam of tennis. She won 8 of the 9 grand slam events she entered from 1952-54. She was hit by a truck in the leg and her career ended before her 20th birthday! Imagine if "Little Mo" had played well into her 30s like Navratilova! She might have had 40 grand slam titles!

I don't think you'll ever get a definitive answer either. But that's why it's fun to debate.

That said, as great as Mo Connolly's abbreviated career was, I don't think you can include her in the discussion for all time greatest. Saying "what if" she hadn't been hurt is the same as saying "what if" Monica hadn't been stabbed ... it's not that these statements aren't legitimate, but you have to look at the careers as they happened. Part of amassing a record worthy of consideration as greatest ever is longevity. Regardless of the circumstances, some great players didn't have that ... Seles and Connolly are perfect examples. You can't consider "what if's," you can only evaluate what did happen. Seles was stabbed. Connolly was hit by a truck. Certainly, these players are all-time greats, but the best ever is going to be someone who avoided - by luck, by training, however - someone who avoided the pitfalls of a major injury.

I am surprised that no Chris Evert heads have spoken up. Usually the Evert supporters are quite vocal ...

[ April 30, 2004, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Gaga4Gaby ]

While they're not nearly as supportive and attractive as the Flabbatini fans on the board, but they are quite vocal.

As much as I love exploring the hypotheticals throughout the history of tennis ... such as Spirlea winning over Venus in the 97 US Open ... the bottom line is that hypotheticals don't really mean a damn thing in the grand scheme of things. Facts are facts, and I believe that Steffi had the most accomplished career in the history of women's tennis. Her ability to succeed on every surface is just incredible and while I wished that she would have continued playing after 1999, she ended her career on a high ... winning the French Open over Hingis and losing in the finals of Wimbledon against Davenport.

Nick

Flabbatini? You tryin' to pick a fight with me, Nick?

If you hadn't referred to me as supportive and attractive, I'd be very angry with you right now! :mad:

Gaby, Gaby, Gaby ... I would never pick a fight with you dear. I'm a lover, not a fighter baby. wink Besides, I wouldn't want to get you all hot and bothered. Vive Le Gaby et La Sabatini!

Nick

Mr. Nick, the things you say!

[Blushing and giggling like the delicate southern blossom that I am.]

My, My, My ... I do declare, your sweet words could charm the morning dew off of the honeysuckle.

Besides, I've always had a thing for dashing, strong, and incredibly sexy Southern men, such as yourself. We must do lunch dahling during the Open ... amongst other things.

Nick

Well, I declare, I'm jumpier than a virgin at prison rodeo!

LOL I love that line Gaby.

My personal faves:

(Rose is filming a documentary for class)
Rose: Oh Blanche, how do you feel about performing in front of a video camera?
Blanche (stops to think): I think it's all right as long as you've had at least three dates

Trudy (to Dorothy): So, how does it feel to have your butt whipped?
Blanche: Well, sometimes I find it strangely titillating...... OH! You were talking to her!

Unfortunately, I need to go to class. *sniff*

Nick

Back to the subject,

Graf is my all time favorite (although the Williams sisters will probably end up displacing her in my heart). "All time" is a bit misleading, since I didn't start watching tennis closely until I think maybe Wimbledon 1993. I forget when it was exactly, but unfortunately for you Gaby, it was a match between Graf and Sabbatini. In my mind I thought of them as the blond versus the brunette. And when the blond won, I began rooting for her. It turned out to be a winning proposition, since Seles was out of the story and Graf pretty much won all the big events. Thus, I can't really evaluate Evert, Navratilova and Seles in the proper perspective.

With Graf fading, my interest in tennis remained - not out of any devotion to a player, but out of pure hatred for Martina Hingis who was winning so easily, I figured she would end up outhauling Graf's Slam totals in 5-6 more years. Again my lack of perspective on tennis history was at work. Enter the Williams Sisters: tennis players of Hingis' generation who were finally capable of beating her. Nowadays tennis "eras" seem so short-lived and periods of domination are constrained to years, I can't imagine anyone ever even approaching what Evert, Navratilova, and Graf did for a period of decades.

LOL at all those lines...

I'm also leaning towards naming Steffi as the greatest player of all time. But there are other factors besides the obvious (Golden Slam, success on different surfaces, etc.).
For example: Her amazing consistency. She was ranked either No. 1 or No. 2 in the world for TEN consecutive years...beginning March 9, 1987, ending June 8, 1997. (The dates might not be exact, but the time frame is.) I don't know of too many athletes who have been able to keep up a high quality of achievement for such a long time.

I also really appreciate Steffi's "quiet dignity," as the article said. In a sense, she was out of her league because of her personality...she was a very shy person who had to go out onto a very public stage week after week. But she never let that shyness (or the personal problems) affect her professionalism or attitude...even if it affected her play.

It's a great honor for Steffi to be inducted in the Hall of Fame, and it's even greater that despite having it done at a young age, Steffi understands what an honor it is.

I understand the accolades that everybody pays Graf, but acknowledging Graf as "the greatest ever" makes me kind of sad.

Nothing to do with Steffi -- she was a great player, and was absolutely dominating.

But saying that is acknowledgement that the nutcase who stabbed Seles got exactly what he wanted. And I find that upsetting.

I really don't think that we'll ever see players with the longevity on tour for a few reasons ...

Injuries - Every player in the Top 10 has missed a major portion of their schedule in the past 3 years due to injury.
Prize Money & Endorsements - This isn't nearly as strong of a point, but I think that the players are able to make such a comfortable living that they don't have as much motivation to play for 20 years in order to be well off for the rest of their life.
Travel - Again, a weak point, but I think that the constant travel must take something out of the players ... back in the day, I'm assuming that the schedules weren't nearly as grueling ... this is a guess since I really didn't watch the sport until the early 90s.

It's sad and disappointing, but it's the way that the tour works today. Someone having the length of success like Graf, Navratilova, and Evert are a thing of the past ... the only current player who fits in that category is Lindsay Daveport, and she has been the bridesmaid over the past few years, due to injury and whatnot. *shrug*

BTW, EVERY post on in the tennis arena deviates from the subject at hand, regardless of the topic ... especially when that guilty culprit, Le Gaby, is involved. eek! I just can't help but flirt with that vivacious vixen with a rockin' bod and an obsession with all things Sabatini.

Nick

I hope we are not forgetting Margaret Court?

Tennis judges here always mark Court over Graf because of Courts achievements in womens and mixed doubles and hence is regarded as having a more complete record. Actually Court, like Graf, did have a long career which included a two year hiatus mid-term when she, in her words, was burnt out and also along the way she had two children before retiring.

Take a look at her record.

In this debate, Steffi has a lot going for her, including those great legs. Her accomplishments have been duly noted. Although I think she deserves more credit for dealing with the impact of the attack on Seles than she's given credit for. After all, the guy was obsessed with her, and he was allowed to go free. She must have wondered at times how far he'd go in his idolization of her, since he'd already proven how brutal he could be. Yet she took care of what she could control, playing and winning.

Her consistency over years was impressive. When you talk consistency, the champion imo is Chris Evert: 13 years with at least one major, at least 16 years in the top 3 (13 of those either 1 or 2), semi-finalist or better at almost every major she entered, 125 match winning streak on clay, highest career winning percentage, among other things. And more majors might(probably would) have been in the books for her, if the pros in the mid/late 70s hadn't chosen to play Team Tennis instead of going to her best event, the French Open. She missed the French 3 years in a row when she was in the middle of a 125 match winning streak on clay. And back then, when she was the #1 player, she didn't play the Australian.

She also had a tremendous influence on how tennis was played. When Chris came up, virtually all the good players were serve/volleyers (BJK, Margaret Court, Evonne Goolagong, et. al.). Soon most players adopted her style from the baseline, although only Tracy Austin had the talent (read the willpower) to be a champion using that style. By the time Steffi was winning at Wimbeldon, the only true grass court champion players were Martina and Chris, and there were significantly fewer top 20 players who could challenge from the net. (If Gaby hadn't lost heart, she could have been the one--she had such wonderful shotmaking ability and gifted hands at the net. Although I think the player who truly could hit every shot was Martina.)

Then it seemed that there were two big influences: 1) Martina, as said above, for her approach of training for strength, and 2) technology, which changed the game because of the developments with racquets. I believe a champion would emerge a champion in another era, if the fantasy could be played out. And it has been my fantasy to think of Chris Evert coming up, with her mind/willpower, having the advantages of the tour today--the training, the racquets, not having to carry the tour the way that she and the founder, BJK, had had to do. Plus chasing the current champion seems to be easier than holding off the up and coming champion.

Good topic. Next time I might just argue for Martina. Or maybe the unsung one: Billie Jean King.

Billie Jean King is definitely not the best player of all time in tennis- although her contributions to tennis as a whole make her the most important contributor to women's tennis and female athletes of all time.

But I dont think she is in the same tier as Graf or Navratilova.

How about we rate Graf and Navratilova as equivalent #1s? Best right and left players of all time. LOL

Billie Jean could have been a contender for the "Best Ever", but her dedication to the advancement of women's sports in general and women's tennis in particular consumed so much of her time that I think it somewhat sidetracked her career. She still obviously acomplished a great deal on the tennis court, but imagine how much more she could have won if she didn't have all the non-tennis distractions.

The All Time Best (modern era only)

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Court
5. King

Despite my impassioned defence of Steffi's record, I'm actually in the Navratilova camp on the best ever. Partly because of her prowess in doubles, but mostly I feel that--at her peak--she was nearly unbeatable. Her record of 13 straight matches over the #2 player in the world at that time is mindboggling. Years past her prime she was still competitive with all-time greats like Steffi and Monica, which is simply amazing. I understand the all-surface argument, but I don't think her (relatively) weaker results on clay are a significant drawback--it's not like Pete Sampras.

In terms of their influence on the game--Martina was the first super-athlete, but Steffi was really the architect of the modern style, the first "big babe". Evert was the dominant stylistic influence in her own time--tennis was overrun with Chrissie clones--but the modern baseliners don't play in her patient, tactical style (except Hingis). Evert's consistency was astonishing, and she's unquestionably the best clay court player ever. But overall, she played second fiddle to Martina for too many years for me to take her seriously as the best ever.

I can certainly see the argument for Court, but I never saw her play. I think it's hard to compare players who played much of their career in the pre-professional era. King was not the best player of her era, so I can't see how she could be considered the best ever. I'll take Seles over King.

Watched Chrissie play this weekend in a charity exhibition. From a distance, it could have been 1975. She still looks incredibly fit. She was a bit rusty, but she held her own with McEnroe against Courier and Corina M (sorry, can't spell) by exhibition standards. From where I was sitting, it looked like she was using a thin Wilson frame. I'm too out-of-touch to be able to identify it.

Goodhands is right. Chrissie could easily have racked up another 3 French Opens and a few Australians as well if she hadn't helped to carry TeamTennis for BJK. Like Martina said at this past year's Open, the champions of the past would have made the adjustments to compete in today's game. She speculated that Chris would have hit harder and gone down-the-line more often; BJK would have improved her forehand; Tracy her serve etc.

With both at their best, I pick Navratilova's volley over Graf's foot speed. They finished 10-10 with Martina's last win in '92.

Finally, a man with some taste!

I confess that I am bad about hijacking threads ... but it's part of my charm.

Revives an old debate about the best player of that era. Court had more major titles. King had more heart and more Wimbledon titles (a record Martina is still trying to reach), not to mention multiple knee surgeries back in the day when the surgery wasn't always better than the injury. If they were to play one match for it all, my money would be on King. The greater the pressure, the better King played (unlike Court, and, at times, even Martina).

Have her play with a old style, small-headed, wood racket, with 3 majors on grass, and you can have Seles. I'll take King (at equivalent peaks of their careers, naturally). With her speed Graf would have done better against the grass court players, but she wouldn't have appeared so dominant either. Without the benefit of the technology (and the attack on Seles), Graf's record wouldn't have been so impressive. 1. Navratilova. 2. Evert. 3. King. 4. Graf. 5. Court.

Sorry, just can't see this argument. Court won the French more often (evidence that she was a better all-surface player) and the U.S. Open more often. There's more to tennis than Wimbledon. Court had a stretch where she won 8 of 9 major titles, clearly dominating the tour in a way Billy Jean never did. The closest BJK came was in '72, but Court played only one major that year and when Court came back in '73, she won three of the four majors. King was better than Court from '74 on, but by that time Evert was better than either. The other time in her career when King might have been the best inthe world was around '66-67, when Court was married and disappeared from the circuit for a while. Court also had a dominating lifetime record against Billy Jean of 22-10.

And have King play with a modern racquet and only 1 major on grass and I'll take Seles. I don't see this as relevant. I'd take Jana Novotna over Seles in the conditions you describe, too--was Jana better than Monica? Seles was unquestionably the best player in the world for a couple of years. Although there were times when Billy Jean might have been the best in the world, there was never a time when it was inarguable.

My ranking 1. Navratilova 2. Graf 3. Court 4. Evert 5. Seles

Remember that King wasn't a serious threat to Court (despite the 1st round upset at Wimbledon in '62) until '66 after she had gone to Australia for M Rose to tinker with her game. After '66, she played Court fairly evenly for the rest of their careers. As for the claim that Evert was better than both by '75, I disagree. King still dominated Evert both indoors and on grass. It wasn't until '77, after King's initial retirement, that their rivalry became one-sided.