This month's TENNIS magazine starts off a listing of their choices for the 40 greatest players - men and women together (I'm assuming it will be 20 of each)- where they will reveal 4 players each month as they count down to number one.

The best part is that kicking it all off at number forty is none other than the fabulous Gabriela Sabatini. You may think I'd be miffed at No. 40, but considering that the list is co-ed, I think that's about right. And I really love what they wrote about her ... although I don't have it in front of me. Something to the effect of her career and its impact cannot be measured by wins and loses. From the time she made the semi's of Roland Garros in 1985 as a 15-year-old to her retirement in 1996, there was no greater attraction in the game than the woman known simply as "Gaby".

The first group of four:

40. Gabriela Sabatini
39. Pat Rafter
38. Virginia Wade
37. Gustavo Kuerten

It should be interesting when they get down to the top ten. My guess for the final four:

4. Martina Navratilova
3. Rod Laver
2. Steffi Graf
1. Pete Sampras

I couldn't agree more with your Final Four, Gaby. I do think Laver should be ranked above Sampras. Had a more complete game, was a true pioneer of the Open Era, would have won more Slams, was more successful on clay and, I believe, would have dominated today's game as well if he'd been born 20 (30?) years later.

And my dreamboat Pat Rafter in the top 40 as well! I'll have to tell him the news when he calls tonight begging me to come Down Under. (Pun intended!)

Interesting rankings - at first blush, I was miffed that Kuerten was ranked ahead of Rafter, but I think Guga actually has performed better on all services and in bigger events (like the end of the year championships).

I also agree with TC - Laver should be No. 1 and Sampras No. 3.

I wonder where Monica and Chris Everett will rank. Monica after Steffi, or Chris E?

[ December 31, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: The B Man ]

Evert gets a higher rank than Monica, I'd guess. It's not Monica's fault and she surely would have won many more Slams had she not been stabbed, but Chris has 18 Slams to Monica's 9. And Chris Evert is such an icon and inspired so many clones ... there was a time when it seemed like everyone outside of Navratilova wanted to be Chris Evert. Monica may also come in behind Margaret Court as well.

BTW, my guess at the top four was a guess of what TENNIS will say ... not necessarily my opinion. If you asked me who the four greatest players ever were, I would pick those four, but I'd rank them as follows:

1. Navratilova - you have to look at the longevity and her impact on the modern game and all that (ongoing, mind you) double success along with all her singles success ... she's won more singles titles at Wimbledon than anyone, man or woman, and Wimbledon is the title that defines tennis like no other. She truly stands alone even amongst the standouts.

2. Sampras - more Slams than any man in history and finished year-end No. 1 six consecutive years. Dominated Wimbledon, which again, is the sport's most prestigious title.

3. Graf - I place her just a hair below Navratilova for greatest woman ever. If you're only evaluating singles, I think Graf has the edge, but overall tennis players do play doubles too. But still dominated the game for so long and won so many Slams. I put her below Sampras because, yes, her record is a tad inflated due to Monica's stabbing. You can't blame Steffi, but it's still true.

4. Laver - admittedly, one of the sports greats, and it seems a shame to have him as low as four. But I do think there's a difference in the sport and in the competition level for the three more modern players I put above him. Not to say he wouldn't have done plenty of damage in today's game with modern equipment and I have no problem with anyone who would rank him higher and even at No. 1 ... but not on G4G's list.

I agree with G4G regarding Martina Navratilova probably being ranked number one. She deserves it, even if the field might not have been as deep for women back in the day. I would love to see Rod Laver rank higher than Pete Sampras, though. Laver just seemed to have more of an impact on the men's game than Sampras did. It will be very interesting to see who the second woman ranked will be. Steffi Graf would be an excellent choice, but I am also wondering where they would place Billie Jean King or Chris Evert. I would love to make a case for Andre Agassi, considering that he did win all four Opens. However, with guys like Bjorn Borg, John McEnroe, and Jimmy Connors in the mix, it is going to be hard to see him land in the top 10. On a personal note, I would love to see some of my teenage tennis crushes, Pat Cash and Henri LeConte, in there, but probably only Cash would make it in the top 40.

[ January 01, 2005, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Cattledog ]

Cash in the top 40--no way. Rafter is such a better player and look where he ended up.

I think we should place the top 10 and see how we do as the results come out. I'm working on my list, but it really is hard because I know very little about tennis before Lendl really, and what I've seen of the older players on Tennis Channel--well, it's just a different game. so, more thought is needed before I can list anyone.

Evert I believe will be rated higher than King or Seles based only on her consistency. Whether she's placed above Margaret Court is iffy for me. Court has long been forgotten as the dominant force she was.

Among Connors, Borg, McEnroe and Agassi, I rate them high-to-low: Borg, Agassi, McEnroe, and Connors. Connors, in a co-ed list, should barely make the Top 15.

Borg will be in the Top 5 men with Laver, Sampras, Tilden and Perry. Top 5 women: Graf, Navratilova, Mo Connolly, Suzanne Lenglen (sp?), and either Court or Evert.

It's actually a list of the top 40 players since TENNIS magazine debuted in 1965, as part of their 40th anniversary "celebration," so it's essentially only players from the Open Era ... which began in 1968. Lenglen and Little Mo aren't in the mix. Laver's second Grand Slam happened in 1969, which is why he stays so close to the top of the list, I'd say.

I think the top five women are gonna be Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Court, and King. For the men I'd go with Sampras, Laver, Borg, Lendl, and Connors. If I had to place them in the order I feel like they belong:

1. Navratilova, 2. Sampras, 3. Graf, 4. Laver, 5. Evert, 6. Borg, 7. Court, 8. Connors, 9. King, 10. Lendl.

Didn't realize that aspect of it. I agree with your top three men in that case, altho I wonder how many (short-sighted) would put Borg above Laver. I see McEnroe being a better player than Connors and I see Agassi being rated better than Lendl. I'm not sure how to rate McEnroe/Agassi. I think that is a tight call.

Your top 5 women: I believe they'll give Seles the spot before King, maybe even before Court.

THIS IS FUN!!!!!!!!!

It's a good thing it's fun ... with only four revealed each month, we're gonna have lots of time to speculate!!

imagine keeping this thread open til dec 05'...wow. greatest in the open era? 1. laver, 2. borg, 3. sampras, 4. graf, 5. seles, 6. connors, 7. navratilova, 8. evert, 9. lendl, 10. court

with a host of others like king, becker, wilander, edberg, agassi hovering right after.

too bad they're not including the 'classics'. love the argument when you factor in players like lenglen, mo, tilden.

I'll actually agree with you on Borg over Sampras. Had Borg bothered to play the Australian, he likely would have had more slams in a shorter career. I'll still pick Laver as best ever, but many of his accomplishments were pre-Open era. The top 3 are clear. The next big cluster is McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Edberg, Wilander, Becker, and Agassi and I find them tough to separate. In 1984, McEnroe was probably the best player of all time, but the rest of his career is less impressive. Connors and Agassi get points for longevity and success on all surfaces. I think I'll go with Lendl as my number 4--a long run at #1, tremendous consistency (8 straight U.S. open finals), and not that bad on grass.

The women: Court is in the mix for best ever, but partly based on her pre-Open era accomplishments, so I'll go with 1. Navratilova (best ever at her peak) 2. Graf 3. Court 4. Evert 5. Seles 6. King 7. Serena Williams (could move up, of course)

This is tough because the criteria is broad and each decade had such different circumstances. How would all these players compete with each other at their prime, their very best. Winning percentages are key as well (Chrissie, Steffi, and Monica have the best % - I think). Monica will always have that huge asterick that speculates about how many slams she would have won (and steffi not) in those 27 months away...most agree at least four, possibly more - she was beating both steffi and martina at the slams at that time with the exception of that wimby debacle when they silenced monica.

1. Martina
2. Steffi
3. Chrissie
4. Monica
5. Billie Jean
6. Serena

I find the men tougher to rate...

All of tennis seems so awed by Sampras but how can he be number one of all time and never won French?

He's not, trust me! People only remember the recent ones! Wait and see how Federer pans out! Should he win the French and a few nore Wimbys and U.S. Opens, he'll soon be hailed as the Number 1 of all time!

Why not Sampras as #1? The only other contender would be Laver. Yes 2 Grand Slams is quite an accomplishment, but let's remember that when he did that 3 of the 4 majors were on grass. Imagine how many more majors Pete would have won if that were the case when he was playing. But on the other hand imagine how many more Laver might have won had he been able to play the majors for all those years in the mid 60s when he couldn't because he was professional.

In Laver's favor are the 2 Slams, the fact that the equipment was clearly inferior to what Sampras got to play with and there were no tiebreaks. Tougher to win tournaments.

In Sampras' favor, deeper competition, more surfaces to contend with, Americans rarely, if ever, played on the type of clay used at Roland Garros, many more distractions and demands on a premire athletes time and he finished the year #1 five straight years.

As for Borg, as great as he was he only won two of the 4 majors. Sure he skipped Australai, but that was his choice. But he showed up at the US Open every year, playing on clay and hard court, and never came away victorious.

I guess my point is that it is so difficult to compare players from such vastly different eras. It makes for fun bar talk or internet chat, but you can't conclusively say Sampras or Laver is or isn't the best ever. It depends on how much weight you put on each of the differences between the two eras.

[ January 28, 2005, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: George_Eaglesfan ]

I've just never been on the Sampras band wagon. Most people inside USTA agree if he had practiced hard and really had a strong work ethic there is no telling the number of Grand Slams he might have won. Rumor was he did not work out or train 1/2 as much as other players

I'll take a guy with heart and hard work over someone that can win on talent alone everytime.
Agassi won at all 4 majors. If he had Sampras' serve we'd never even have heard of Pete.

Just to be clear I wouldn't put Agassi over him(Sampras) in rankings but would definitely put Rod at #1

The current issue of TENNIS magazine has the next 4 on their list:

36. Jennifer Capriati
35. Stan Smith
34. Lleyton Hewitt
33. Hana Mandlikova

As previously mentioned #s 40-37:

40. Gabriela Sabatini
39. Pat Rafter
38. Virginia Wade
37. Gustavo Kuerten

[ January 30, 2005, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: George_Eaglesfan ]

St PTGator,

I believe you are incorrect about the Sampras's work ethic.My observations were that he worked very hard,he had excellent coaches and travelled with both a fitness trainer and masseur.Pete had a reputation for a very strict and sober lifestyle and furthermore no player can win 14 Grand Slam titles without a professional approach.

From memory, he always presented in great shape but at some stage I think he had a blood disorder or something like that, that effected his stamina but that was later corrected.

Sure the media were on his case for having a charisma bypass but that is another issue.I believe that he worked just as hard or even harder than his contemporaries.

I think TENNIS is doing a good job of capturing what is special in their descriptions of the players that are being listed. They didn't shy away from Gaby's lack of victories over her top peers - but accentuated her consistency, impact on the game, and competitive near misses. For Capriati, the description doesn't shy away from her off-court troubles and her on-court dramas ... it depicts her for the diva she is and that we'll remember her as being. And the Mandlikova description might as well say, "she was super talented but crazy, crazy, crazy." I'm having lots of fun watching the list unfold!

I'm moving this post over from another one I started.

In Tennis mag's March issue, they listed the 36 through the 33 best players of the this "Tennis era" (the last 4 decades) and Lleyton Hewitt is 34th. He's listed amongs Capriati, Stan Smith, & Hana Madlikova. Is it just me or are they being a bit generous here?

According to the little blurb they wrote on him, his competitive nature and similarities with Jimmy Connors, in addition to his grand slam titles, earned him this honorable listing.

Anybody else buy this argument? I don't think he's earned this ranking, not yet.

The article's not online. I've uploaded a pdf of it. The clarity isn't great, but it's readable.

40 Greatest Players of Tennis Era

You need Acrobat Reader to read it.

[ February 26, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Xander ]

geez it was hard to be a Gaby fan for 11 years...I know just what you mean by "competitive near misses." Still, she was and still is fab..

The next four on the list have been released, but of course, I left my copy of TENNIS at home. I know that Tracy Austin, Justine Henin-Hardenne, and Arthur Ashe were there (but I don't remember in what order). And the last member of this latest group of four escapes me.

I'll try to remember to bring my magazine tomorrow.

I'll help you out Gaga!

32. Tracy Austin
31. Justine Henin Hardenne
30. Arthur Ashe
29. Lindsay Davenport

Who voted on this list, anyway? Lindsay so far down and Henin in there, right behind Lindsay and ahead of Gaby and Jennifer? The list is starting to become bogus!

And, I thought that they alternated between men and women!

Thanks for the assist, George!

This is the first time a foursome hasn't been two men and two women, so that's a suprise. Maybe they're not doing it 20 a piece or alternating. The list was voted on by a panel at TENNIS magazine, listing the 40 greatest players in the time that TENNIS has been around - essentially the Open Era.

I think Justine belongs right there with Lindsay. They've both won 3 Slams a piece, both won Gold at the Olympics, both been ranked number one. Justine hasn't had the longevity of Lindsay, which is why Lindsay's currently a bit higher, but if Justine returns to form then she'd most likely pass Lindsay on a list like this.

As much as I love Sabatini, you can't expect she'd be higher on the list than a player with three Slams who'd been ranked No.1. And Capriati - despite her three Slams - has never been able to maintain a constant presence on the WTA tour. So, it makes sense to me that she'd be lower than Henin-Hardenne and Davenport as well.

So far, I think the list is looking pretty good. I mean, they're all great players to be in the top 40 and it's gonna get more and more difficult as the list progresses.

40. Gabriela Sabatini
39. Pat Rafter
38. Virginia Wade
37. Gustavo Kuerten
36. Jennifer Capriati
35. Stan Smith
34. Lleyton Hewitt
33. Hana Mandlikova
32. Tracy Austin
31. Justine Henin-Hardenne
30. Arthur Ashe
29. Lindsay Davenport


:cool:

[ March 10, 2005, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Gaga4Gaby ]

The next 4 names have been revealed:

28. Ilie Nastase
27. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
26. Jim Courier
25. Venus Williams

I haven't gotten my magazine yet. Thanks, George! I think the list continues to look spot on ... although I have a personal dislike for Sanchez-Vicario. I think she overachieved and got lucky with the Seles stabbing/Graf injuries/Sabatini spacewalk that made up the mid-90s. But someone had to come out of all that smelling like roses and you can't fault Aranxta for winning when the opportunity presented itself.

The newest issue (May) is a special 40th anniversary issue. The cover story is The 40 Greatest Moments of the Past 40 Years.

Not to nitpick, but I hate when these lists use the word Greatest and then proceed to include incidents like Jennifer Capriati's arrest and Monica Seles' stabbing. Those may be important moments but they were not great by any definition of the word.

I agree. You should pop off an e-mail to the editor. It's a worthy point.

I find the periodic release of the names hard to put in context. Courier greater than Ashe? Nastase better than Hewitt? No and no, IMHO.

They're clearly emphasizing the numbers of majors won very heavily. Sanchez-Vicario, Venus and Courier all won four. Last week's group included Davenport, Capriati and JHH who won three. Nastase baffles me, though--just can't see why he's so high. Only 14 career titles, 5 major final appearances with 2 wins.

I think they're taking impact/personality into it as well for certain players. Gaby's description mentioned the intangibles of her popularity during her time as a professional and "Nasty" is such an infamous figure that I'd imagine some of that came into play and boosted his number.

I agree that perhaps he's a bit inflated, though.

Nastase also had a great Davis Cup record (74-22 in singles, 35-15 in doubles) in leading Romania to the Davis Cup finals three times and won the season-ending Masters title 4 times ('71-73, '75) as well as the runnerup in '74.

G4G and whoever else may notice--where is "Hall of Fame" player Jana Novotna on this list? Point being; Gaby makes it (ok, at #40) but still, if Tennis Magazine thinks she's "greater" than Jana, why doesn't the Hall?

The Hall of Fame admitted Jana on the strength of her doubles titles, whereas the TENNIS list is clearly accounting for players' achievements in singles.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of SI's Jon Wertheim (numbskull) who thinks Jana Novotna was a better player than Gabriela Sabatini when you're talking singles.

I wonder if it would have been more interesting to leave out active players. A seperate piece speculating on where those players might fall in the top forty would be vital, but since some of these careers (Williams, JHH, even LD/JenCap)aren't completely wrapped up, who knows what's still ahead for them on the court. Any thoughts?
Arantxa benefited greated from Seles' absence though not by choice. Graf's achievements from late 93 through 95/96 will always have a huge asterick but so will ASV's. ASV and Seles were actually somewhat friendly, weren't they? I remember the compassion ASV showed when she beat Seles in that 97 FO final just after Monica's father passed and she hadn't practiced much. ASV was such a crafty, tenacious player and not so popular with refs and other players since her gamemanship was always going full speed.

The list continues:

24. Guillermo Vilas
23. Evonne Goolagong
22. Martina Hingis
21. Roy Emerson

I'm too young to be familiar with any of those players outside of Hingis. I know who they are, but never saw them play.

I get compared to Goolagong alot in terms of my own tennis. Granted, it's like an incredibly hacked up version of Evonne ...

We're closing in on the top twenty!!
:cool:

I was just thinking about this list this morning while scrambling eggs for breakfast. I was wondering when Hingis was going to appear, although I thought it might be just over the 20 mark, but you have to remember she had only won 5 GS, although she was no. 1 forever. They say, or at least I read that Monica said once, that she wished she could have back some of those blown GS finals, and I'm sure Martina thinks the same, especially the Aussie and French.

So who else remains, just to see if I can come up with twenty:

Sampras, Laver, Graf, Navratilova, Agassi, Seles, Serena, Billie Jean, Chris Evert, McEnroe, Court, Lenglen, Federer, Lendl, Conners, Wade. Four more to go. Woops, Wade already on the list, five more to go.

[ May 06, 2005, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: shore ]

So you are not only little and cute, G, but you're also just a kid. Thanks for reminding us of all your sweetness.

Don't know if I'd be able to do a top 20, but might be good to compare top 10s and see how they compare with the magazine's opinions.

Goolagong was the most fluid, graceful player of her era. She was Chrissie's arch-nemesis before Martina got herself into shape. She could also be quite mentally frail. While she was a serve and volleyer, she seemed more feminine doing it than Billie Jean or Rosie Casals. I know that sounds sexist and politically incorrect, but it is just the way she came across.

The things I remember most about Vilas were that 50 match win streak in 1977 and winning the last US Open at Forest Hills (before the Open moved to Flushing's hard courts). He was a clay court monster. He probably would have been higher on the list were it not for his appearnce in the movie "Players" where he reached the Wimbledon final.

[ May 06, 2005, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: George_Twinsfan ]

I didn't mean to compare myself to anything fluid or graceful. Idolizing Gaby, of course, I wanted to be all those things and tried when I taught myself the game ... but when I play, it looks like a retarded monkey in the midst of death throws. Mentally frail, though, I have that down pat ... this must be where the comparisons come from!

Vilas was Sabatini's idol. :cool: I didn't know he made the Wimby final in "Players" ... heh heh.

G4G, or should we call you "Evonne"...? Anyway; the movie "Players", can I find it at, say, Blockbuster? It sort of brings to mind the "Air Bud World Pup" movie, where the soccer team from Norway is foiled by the goalie dog...is it that silly?

Oh, sorry: to get on topic...umm I've stopped caring. I mean we all have our favorites and are happy if they make the list, but "the List" doesn't really mean anything; it just seems like a cheap ploy to get people to buy their magazine for a few months.

[ May 08, 2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: tigercub ]

Yes, I left Borg out of my predictions for the top twenty, of course he'll be there. Also Edburg, probably in the next round maybe. And Federer has to be in the top forty too.

[ May 08, 2005, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: shore ]

Remember, it's the 40 best players since Tennis Magazine came into being, not of all time ... so players like Lenglen won't be there.

Tigercub - I think "players" is probably hard to come by at the video store or anywhere else these days, but I don't really know.

I think of this list like those arbitrary VH-1 specials that count down the greatest whatevers in music; no, it doesn't mean anything, but it's fun to speculate and argue!

You all have a good list. I agree that Sampras is number 1. Can Pete play ping pong?

next 4 just released ...

20 Rosewall
19 Federer
18 Becker
17 Serena

my opinion for the top 16 ...

16 Edberg
15 Newcombe
14 Wilander
13 Seles
12 Lendl
11 King
10 McEnroe
9 Agassi
8 Connors
7 Evert
6 Navratilova
5 Borg
4 Graf
3 Sampras
2 Court
1 Laver (who most likely would've won 20+ majors had he remained an amateur from '63-'68)