Since many of our tennis threads seem to involve quite a lot of discussion about the game's history, I thought it would be a good idea to have a separate thread for the topic.

What's your best tennis memory? Was Rod Laver the best ever? Could Steffi Graf wipe the court with Maureen Connolly? If they had a tournament and everyone came to play, who would win? Who would be invited? Who had the best strokes? Who was the hottest player you've ever seen? The most talented? WWBD? (What would Bud do?)

Greatest memory, or best tennis feeling, for me was 1975: Ashe beating the heavily-favored Connors who was suing him at the time about some ATP thing. Ashe was such a class act -- amazing that he is gone. King and Ashe dancing at the ball after King making the no-class statement "I'm blacker than Arthur Ashe". Evert beating Austin in the semis(?) at the US Open (year?) after losing to her the prior year in what I think was Evert's most important match of her life is a good runner-up for me. Worst memory: late 70s Forest Hills Tournament of Champions (not the US Open) paying to see John Newcombe lose 6-1 6-2 to Wotjek Fibak. Laver is, I believe, the greatest ever. If tennis players were boats, Laver would be a battleship. He had weapons from every point on the court. Oddest tennis memory: King-Riggs or Mats Wilander losing all his desire after becoming No. 1. Worst No. 1 ever: Rios or Courier -- what a joke!

Courier wasn't so bad. He did win four major titles. Rios as #1 though was not great (but not that much worse than someone like Moya or Kafelnikov taking the top ranking.)

TC, I think you're being influenced by hindsight. Rios seems less impressive because we know he fell apart. But in the spring of 1998, he was 22 and red hot with a final appearance at Oz, and five tournament wins before the French including Indian Wells & Rome. As for Courier, he was not only a legitimate #1, but a reasonably dominant one for two years, winning four of eight majors, and appearing in the finals of five of ten. He was eclipsed by Sampras after that and faded young, but he was a very convincing #1 for a while. And he was the only American man to really be a great clay court player.

I think the player who was least impressive at the time he was ranked #1 was definitely Kafelnikov; he had lost seven matches in a row. And his ranking is always inflated by playing so many tournaments.

Back to the topic:
Best tennis memory: Hana Mandlikova's amazing performance at the U.S. open in '85. The men's Wimbledon final of 1980. I can't really rate players like Laver & Connolly, or even Margaret Court, because I never saw them play. Of the players, I've seen play, I'm partial to Borg over Sampras because he excelled on all surfaces. And I think I would pick Martina N. over Graf--at her peak, I think she was the best. Six straight majors. And from Wimbledon '83 to U.S. Open '87, she appeared in 17 of 18 grand slam finals.

Greatest tennis memory #1: "Super Saturday of the 1984 US Open. My college roommate and I got tix for great seats-we were about 5 rows behind the friends Box in the old Louis Armstrong Stadium. I'd been to the Open before, but never had seats like this, so I made a point of being there on time, 11am.

First up was the first men's semifinal-Ivan Lendl against Aussie Studman Pat Cash. It was kind of strange. Not too many people were there even as Cash surprisingly took the first set 6-3. Lendl stormed back to win the next 2 sets, 3 and 4. But Cash rallied to take the 4th set in an exciting tiebreak. By this time, the stadium was jammed and the crowd was going crazy. Unfortunately, Lendl took the deciding set in a tiebreak, but the stage had been set.

Next up was the women's final-Martina Navratilova against Chris Evert. This match came at a time when Martina was really dominating Chris, so most people thought this would be a quick one. Evert was having none of that as she shockingly took the opening set 6-4 by being aggressive. When she won the set, the entire stadium went absolutely crazy. But Martina, who would have been shattered by this kid of crowd reaction only a few years earlier, kept it together and won sets 2 and 3, 6-4, 6-4.

Now the main course-Jimmy Connors against John McEnroe in the other men's semi. The winner would have very little rest before the final to be played the next day at 4pm. Not exactly sure, but I believe it was already after 7pm. JMac had just thrashed Connors at Wimbledon, but Connors wasn't going to let that happen at the US Open. Five tough sets and almost 4 hours later, McEnroe advanced 6-4, 4-6, 7-5, 4-6, 6-3.

Best...Tennis Day....EVER!!!!

I know this is classic tennis but my favorite memory is Steffi Graf beating Hingis in the French Open final. Hingis had made a comment a couple of years earlier abou Graf being washed up, so it was nice to see her get hers.

The greatest ever is Sampras. Based on the numbers, I don't think there are many people that would vote against him on any surface other than clay.

Jimmy losing to Mac in Wimbledon semi was a great match (Thank you classic ESPN). Agassi's 1992 Wimbledon win was a thing of beauty as well.
I would love to see Venus (in a couple of years) vs Martina (in her prime) on grass and Serena vs. Sanchez-Vicario on clay.

One of the hottest players to me was Rios. A lot of people called him an ass****, but he was the first Latino ever ranked No. 1 and fought through a lot of racism to get there. That determination, in addtion to those thighs, make him the hottest followed closely by Becker. Very closely.

Z

Rios, by all accounts especially announcers and othe players, is the biggest ass**** in the game (Jeff Tarango notwithstanding). I'm skeptical that Rios fought through any racism to get to the top but his brief time as #1 was just a good streak; he's inconsistent, moody, and often unfocused..but when he's on, he's a really fantastic player.

some other classics:

Seles/Capriati at the French Open
Seles/Graf at the French Open
Any number of Evert/Navratilova's finals

Rios, by all accounts especially announcers and othe players, is the biggest ass**** in the game (Jeff Tarango notwithstanding). I'm skeptical that Rios fought through any racism to get to the top but his brief time as #1 was just a good streak; he's inconsistent, moody, and often unfocused..but when he's on, he's a really fantastic player.

some other classics:

Seles/Capriati at the French Open
Seles/Graf at the French Open
Any number of Evert/Navratilova's finals

I never saw him play but most of his contemporaries or those that came later agree that Laver was the best. I've read that those who preceded him (Kramer, Gonzalez, Budge) dismissed him as a topspin artist. Of course, I'm partial to Borg as he was the best when I was a kid.

Greatest memory-- Billie Jean beating Tracy Austin to reach the Wimbledon semis in '82, and then pushing Chrissie to three. She should have one that match! It's always the legs that go first. Another nice memory- Virginia Wade finally winning the title in '77.

Match I wish I could have seen-- Lenglen v Wills

Hottest player-- Borg pre-headband and Moya

Greatest ever--I have to agree that Navratilova's best beats Graf's.

Courier won 4 majors??!!! I owe him an apology then. I have no memory of that. Everyone's responses bring back some great memories but I don't think you can call Sampras the best ever without a major win on clay.

Courier's best appearences in majors:

French Open - 1991, 1992 (win) 1993 (final)
Australian Open - 1992, 1993 (win)
Wimbledon - 1993 (final)
US Open - 1991 (final)

variag3 - I also wish I could have seen Lenglen vs. Wills. I've reaad a lot about it. I have a special fondess for Suzanne Lenglen.

I also refuse to say that Sampras was the best ever. Best ever at Wimbledon - sure. Best player on grass - debatable. Best player ever - no. However his is in my top 6 (the others being Laver, Tilden, Gonzalez, Borg, and Kramer.)

Not sure about Navratilova's best beats Graf's best, but I would like to think it would. I think Martina would agree with that.

Some of the best matches of the past few years:

Sampras/Agassi - US Open quarterfinals 2001
Rafter/Ivanisevic - Wimbledon final 2001
Capriati/Clijsters - French Open final 2001
Venus Williams/Hingis - US Open semifinals 2000

Does anybody know what the years are when they changed the surfaces at the various slams? I know that the Australian used to be grass, too. Has the U.S. open always been a hard surface, or was it grass at one time as well?

Oh, to be young again. US Open went to clay (Har-Tru) in 1976, then to hardcourt 2-3 years later. AUS Open was about 5 years behind that as I recall. Lev will know better. Oh, to be young again. Is it true cameras didn't used to be disposable? That Jerry Springer was mayor of a major city? That OJ used to play football? Is it true that Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings? I better stop. Mu nurse has my Wheatena ready.

The French and Wimbledon have been pretty much at their same venues since they were founded. Wimbledon did move sites in the early 20s because they had run out of room. However, the surfaces never changed.

The Australian was a grass affair until 1988. Hana Mandlikova won the last one held on grass. Steffi won the inaugural event at Flinders (now Melbourne) Park on the Rebound Ace surface. The transition was marred by several ankle injuries. The surface is made of recycled rubber for one, and the heat during the Open made the court very sticky.

The US Open did indeed go through a double transition. It was held on grass through 1974, then the green American clay for three years, then Flushing Meadow came online in 1978. Chris was the only woman to win the US Open on clay, as she swept all three clay titles. Jimmy Connors is the only player to win the tournament on all three surfaces it was played on.

Brian D.
It is well documented that Rios' attitude comes from years of being treated like trash as a young teen by fairer skin officials and players in Chile. When he was on the rise, several stories were written reporting such.

On another note, how could I miss the 4 set, all tie-breaker battle between Pete and Agassi a couple of years ago at the Open.

Z

I've never heard any of those Rios stories though I imagine he was a tough package to deal with from day one...

I think Borg's five year double at the French and Wimbledon is the most remarkable men's stat ever...

While Martina N. at her best would probably squeek by Steffi at her best in two tiebreakers...I think Seles at her very best (92-93) would beat Martina N. at her best...Mostly because Seles hit harder off both sides and Steffi hit defensively off her backhand: Martina N. had a tougher time with Seles' passing shots...Of course, they played many times and Seles does have a winning record against Martina though most came in her final years...

My favorite match of all time, if we're talking quality of play, is the 1990 Virginia Slims Championships Final between Gaby Sabatini and Monica Seles. It was the first women's match in the open era to go five sets. There have been two more since, but neither of those were as competitive or well-played throughout as 1990. At 3-3 in the third set, they had played 200 points and both women had won 100. Seles won 6-4, 5-7, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2, if memory serves me correctly. Seles was resolute from the baseline and Sabatini was spectacular at net. Monica herself often refers to that match as one of her favorites. It kills me that they've gone back to 3 sets now. If had been 3 sets then, Gaby would have owned a third year-end title.

For sentimental value, Gaby's 1990 U.S. Open victory over Steffi Graf does it for me. I also loved watching the Graf/Sabatini rivalry between the end of '90 and the middle of '91, when Gaby beat Steffi five consecutive times -- including once after dropping the first set 0-6. Good times.

The worst moment for me was the '93 French Open quarterfinal between Gaby and Mary Joe Fernandez. After being up 6-1, 5-1, losing that match virtually ended Sabatini's career. Very sad.

Finally, I have to stick up for Steffi and give her the edge over Martina. Steffi won all four grand slams in one calendar year, plus added the olympic gold medal that year, and won more slams than Navratilova. Also, Steffi's slam titles are more evenly disbursed on all surfaces than Martina's.

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:


I think Borg's five year double at the French and Wimbledon is the most remarkable men's stat ever...

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While Borg was truly remarkable, he performed the rare French-Wimbledon double three times (1978-1980). He also won the French in 1974-75 and 1981, but didn't win Wimbledon those years (Connors def Rosewall in '74, Ashe def Connors in '75 and McEnroe def Borg in '81). While winning Wimbledon in 1976 and '77, Adriano Panatta (over Harold Solomon) and Guillermo Vilas (over Brian Gottfried) won the French those years.

As for total domination, Steffi Graf's Grand Slam season in 1988 has to be considered one of the more impressive feats. In 28 Grand Slam matches, Graf lost only 2 sets, 1 to Navratilova in the Wimbledon final and 1 to Sabatini in the US Open final. In 21 of the 28 matches, Graf dropped 4 games or fewer. She was extended to a tiebreak only twice in 56 sets won (Evert at the Australian and Sabatini at the French). She won 14 sets 6-0. At the French, she lost a total of 20 games, 9 of which came in the semifinal against Sabatini. That's 11 games in the other 6 matches. Oh yeah she also won the Olympic gold medal that year as well!

I still hold Martina at her peak was the best player I've ever seen. Even in '91 to '93 (Seles' best years), Martina was 3-8 against her. If she was competitive with Seles in her mid-thirties, nearly a decade past her peak, I've got to believe she would have beaten Seles most of the time (except maybe on clay) in her prime. Or to look at it another way, vs. their competition in their best years:

Navratilova ('82-'84) 254-6; 15-1 vs Evert, 11-1 vs Mandlikova, 10-1 vs Shriver

Seles ('91-'93) 161-13; 3-2 vs Graf, 10-2 vs Sabatini, 8-3 vs Navratilova

For comparison:
Graf ('87-'89) 233-7; 6-2 vs Navratilova, 15-3 vs Sabatini, 7-0 vs Evert

I guess you could argue that Navratilova was not as good a big match player as the others, since four of her six losses were in slams. Seles, on the other hand, was clearly not as dominant in minor tournaments as the others.

As to the argument that Graf was more balanced--yes, Steffi had no weak surface. But in the three years that define her best, Navratilova went 43-1 on clay. Remarkable as Graf's grand slam record of '88 was, I'll take the 86-1 year Martina had in '83 as the best in modern tennis.

One of the most dramatic matches I ever saw was the 1991 US Open semifinal between Monica Seles and Jennifer Capriati (I may be off by a year or two). They were both SO young (I believe Seles was 17 and Capriati 15) and struck the ball with a ferocity I don't think anybody ever imagined women - let alone girls - could muster. The level of tennis was very high, with lots of clean winners. It seemed we were watching the beginning of a rivalry that would last as long as Martina and Chris. Little did anybody know what would happen in both their lives in the next two years. Seles won the match, and many feel it started JCap on her downward personal spiral into rebellion and drug use, and Seles today seems to have an air of melancholy that belies the giggly, Madonna-loving teenager on the court that day. I remember it as a great match, but perhaps through the lens of what came later for the players the image is a bit distorted.....

If I remember correctly, Navratilova was up a set and a break in that '88 Wimbledon final when she claimed to have injured her leg and felt she could no longer push off to get to the net quickly enough.

Graf was definitely the fastest player I've ever seen, but I'm with JC that Martina would have beaten her at her very best.

That match between Seles and Capriati was remarkable regardless of what was to come. They both played extremely high level tennis with amazing chutzpah.

That 1990 5-setter between Gaby and Seles is also one for the ages. A huge contrast of styles and just beautiful, brilliant tennis from both of those girls.

BJK, Chrissie, Martina N., Steffi, Monica, Gabriela, etc...how can we compare? They were all superstars and will be as long as the game's around.

Munson Man, it was in fact 1991. And yes, it is given the credit as being the beginning of Capriati's downward spiral (Jen says she doesn't remember it, Monica says it was one of her best matches.)

In truth, that's pretty much regarded as the finest match between two women under the age of 18 ever. Instant classic.

One of the things that puts a little "tarnish" on both Martina and Steffi's legendary status was their tendency to cry hurt whenever things did not go their way. They did not do this always, but they did do it often.

Martina lost to Pam Shriver in the 82 US Open QF and claimed that a cat scratch had left her with an illness that had sapped her energy. Her 83 4R French loss to Kathleen Horvath was due to some other illness. In 88, she lost to Chris at the Australian and it was because they had played so many exhibitions coming into Melbourne that she was not prepared for real tennis. The 88 W loss to Steffi was due to injury. Over the years, we heard them all.

And Steffi endured everything under the sun. She was constantly dealing with some sinus issue. Her knee was always about to fall apart, as she ran like a gazelle around the court. She often had the flu, bronchitis, name the illness.

While I completely understand that this was a way to take the pressure off themselves, it was also pretty disrespectful of the people who beat them. So many other fine players never made excuses, even when they had legitimate ones to make. Jimmy Connors had a sprained ankle one year at the US Open, but nobody would have known except for hearing about it from the CBS announcers. Chris' streak of Grand Slam SF finishes ended in 83 at Wimbledon. She was so sick, the doctor was summoned to her flat the night before she played in the 3R. She took the court, lost, and never once peeped up about dragging her ass on court just after vomiting in the locker room.

The legend thing is about playing the game, but it is also about being a great champion. The second part adds a different spin to the discussion.

My all time biggest kvetch with Martina N. is the degrunting of Monica during the 92 Wimby final. She and a couple other players complained so loudly that Monica was asked to be quiet. She would have won the Grand Slam that year had she beaten Graf in that final..She was f*cking robbed and those bitter ladies were the reason.

It's actually a good point. Martina N. and Steffi complained and whined a great deal about different body stuff every time they lost or not. Sounds like the Williams circa 99-01...

JenCap did begin her decline after that huge loss to Seles. She was sure she was going to win that US Open but she ran into the best player in the world in Seles. But, you can't take anything away from Jennifer; it's an unbelievable match to watch.

In steffi's defense, during 96 wimbledon steffi was having a problem with her knee, the same knee that she had surgery on in 97, during that wimbledon navratilova claimed that steffi made up injuries, in her second match she was noticibly limping, yet claimed nothing was wrong, in 95 wimbledon, steffi needed pain killer injections for her back for the first few rounds yet didnt mention that until months afterwards. in 98 steffi lost to schnyder at the us open, right after that she had surgery on her wrist, yet did not blame her loss on the wrist.

Undoubtedly, Monica had to persevere through enormous adversity during the 1992 Wimbledon, the least of which was the grunting scandal. The far graver problem at the time was a serious death threat toward not just Monica but her entire family. That she made it through to the final despite all the craziness is a testament to her tremendous strength and competitive fire. That said, I don't know if Monica had what it took to beat Steffi on grass. Graf had the (slightly) better serve, the flat forehand, the killer slice backhand, and perhaps most important, terrific grass court instincts and movement. Monica's movement was a lot better back then, but she never really moved all that well on grass, and she always moved back to the baseline on short balls (eek! grass court Cardinal Sin #1!!). But who knows? It's all speculation now, isn't it?

Perhaps Steffi could have stayed a little more quiet about her injuries, but don't forget that in many instances, she spoke of her injuries because she was withdrawing from a tournament. Give Steffi some credit. Once she started a tournament, she usually played through until she lost, no matter how much pain she was in.

Steffi was no hypochondriac, either. I hear that she doesn't even like to play golf any more, much less hit a tennis ball, because walking 18 holes is just too painful for her injury-wracked body.

Yo Charliecstl -- Connors was infamous for pulling out of matches with "injuries" in his younger days. Pulled out of the US Pro in Boston with a back injury before winning the Open the following week. Pulled out of a final at MSG with Vitas Gerulaitis and was then seen dancing with Chrissie later that night. Frankly, I'd call Hingis a hypochondriac before Graf. I recall Navratilova's "cat illness" but it doesn't really strike me that she was an excuse-maker altho that one may be one for the books!

Top three best tennis memories:
1) Patrick Rafter beating a cocky (and truly annoying) Sampras at the US Open semis;
2) Chris Evert whipping Martina two straight years at the French Open;
3) Patrick Rafter's two incredible successive semis against Andre Agassi at Wimbledon.

Incidentally, for my money, Chris Evert's mind-blowing consecutive wins on clay record and semifinal appearances at Slams rank as two greatest achievements in sport.

How about rating the best players by surface? As before, I don't rate players from before the late '70s.

Men
Grass: Sampras
Clay: Borg
Hardcourt: this is difficult. McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Sampras & Agassi were all pretty comparable, I think.

Women
Grass: Navratilova
Clay: Evert
Hardcourt: Once again, the toughest category. Possibly Graf.

I like your choices for players by surface. I would agree with them. And hardcourts do seem to equalize things, so it is much harder to pick someone as the best on that surface. Lots of Americans mainly, who grow up on the stuff.

And Chris' 85 and 86 French wins are two of my favorite memories as well. She played top tennis in both finals. I just wish she would have broken through at the US or Wimbledon one of those years for a final hurrah there.

hey rpfnyc - great choices...Rafter has given us such great matches...And welcome to San Francisco.. Do you play tennis?

hey bryand...
funny you should ask about the tennis thing. i used to play a lot (as a junior tourney kid in south florida) but i haven't actually played in a decade or so. but, as the new editor in chief of a magazine in town, 5 or 6 guys on staff are begging me to hit a few with them, so i think i just might. what do you do in sf? --richard

funny you should ask - i'm a freelance writer/editor/proofreader here in sf -
i play a ton of tennis here, mostly in golden gate park but there are a lot of courts to choose from - ten years off? you're going to be rusty! I hit a couple times this week after taking two and a half weeks off and it wasn't pretty at the start..

rpfnyc, you might want to look into the SF Gay and Lesbian Tennis Federation. I'm thinking of joining it myself to try to find some hitting partners.

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: rich_sf ]

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: rich_sf ]

The GLTF is fantastic here in SF. I just joined in the spring and instantly got on both a team and into a doubles challenge. Both were a great time. Check out the website which is gltf.com, I think...it's easy to find hitting partners once you get into a tournament or something...I played the USGO (got to the quarters) too a few weeks ago and it was just great...

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
Check out the website which is gltf.com, I think...

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Actually it's gltf.org. Maybe I'll see you guys there.