Calls a writer a "fag" then tries to claim it's not a slur, in part because he attends Madonna concerts.

Story.

I love this comment: Nobody should say the above without also being prepared and willing to say something similar to the following: "To anyone who was not insulted or hurt by that comment, as an organization, we'll certainly not apologize."

It's silly. Everyone should be insulted by Ozzie's comments. :mad:

Ozzie being a homophobe is as surprising as this morning's sunrise. The media likes him and portrays him as a character (a la Charles Barkley) and will never, ever hold him accountable for the things he says and does. We have "manny being Manny", Charles being Charles" and now "Ozzie being Ozzie".


Although you can be sure that if he had called the reporter a nigger, chink or kike, there would be hell to pay.

I can only imagine the names he called that rookie who wouldn't/couldn't bean the batter last week after Ozzie ordered him to. Wish the kid had picked up a bat and clubbed Ozzie across his head.

[ June 21, 2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: George Twins fan ]

On the ESPN website there is a poll being taken about your thoughts on Guillen's statements and the type of reprimand he should receive.
Seems like majority of respondents believe that there should be NO punishment for Ozzie. Not even a fine. :mad:

Sometimes when I read stuff like this, and all the other remarks made by certain professional athletes, it reminds me of how incredibly fragile the male ego is...Masculinity, or the image of it, seems constantly threatened, never really secure...This guy, Ozzie, just seems like a complete *sshole...period.

Currently on the poll to which rogerdodger refered on ESPN.com, 40% feel no punishement is warranted. 26% say a fine, 12% say a 1-5 game suspension, 8% say 6-10 games and 14% say more than 10 games.

I say no punishment, but then again, I don't think anyone should be fined or suspended for this sort of thing. They don't learn anything, and for the team it's just a way of covering their asses and the real problems of homophobia/racism/whatever in their corporate/team culture.

I am f**king pissed at Ozzie. He's lost me as a fan. I think he was right to call for retribution against Texas, and I think Tracey deserved to be called out for not being hitting Blalock. Unless Tracey is the ONLY PITCHER IN THE HISTORY OF PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL WHO WOULD NEVER INTENTIONALLY HIT A BATTER then everyone needs to shut up about Tracey's mythological humanity for not hitting Blalock. And if his control is so bad that he can't hit a big hunk of meat like Hank Blalock, then he doesn't belong at any level of baseball, because he likely will hit someone in the head when intending to throw low and away.

Here's how it's been going. White Sox get hit. They don't do anything. They get hit again. Both benches are warned. Rinse, repeat. At some point, every other club in baseball is going to learn that they automatically get to hit two White Sox (perhaps ending a career) and NEVER face retribution! And guess what? They will. Until MLB can figure out a way to stop that, I'm all for what Ozzie did.

But this is beyond the pale. Ozzie has lost me as a fan. I respect his managerial ability, I think he earned his WS ring last year, but the man disgusts me. And if he shows up at Gay Games anywhere near me, I promise I'll be man enough to say that and more to his face.

Ozzie Guillen is a no-class piece of garbage. If "freedom of speech" can prevent him from being suspended then we should find an alternate form of reprimand. I suggest a motorcycle ride with Ben Roethlisberger.

LOL

I cannot fathom Guillen's explanation that fag isn't used in the same way in Venezuela than here--he's been in the US for over two decades and knows full well how its used in this country. After all, he received a similar reaction when he used it last year addressing a friend of his in front of the press. Additionally, Ozzie Guillen faced a tremendous amount of prejudice, and, I'm sure, racially-based epithets--within baseball's heirarchy as he--a Latino--worked his way to become a manager. There is no excuse for his comments but I don't support a suspension. Why should his players have to pay (not having a world-class manager in the dugout) for his stupidity? I prefer the idea of a boycott of White Sox games and/or protest signs wherever they play.

~Adam

While I do agree in principle, wouldn't "racial epithet" have sufficed?

Jammyn

f**k ozzie. of course no one would want that, but f**k him nonetheless. he's been in the U.S. for 25 freakin' years and he sure as hell knows what the word FAG means. how long will the media/white sox organization tolerate ozzie's stupid, uneducated, homophobic remarks? this is ridiculous.

what kind of animal is ozzie?

Sigh. Ozzie made some amends:
\"Those people.\" Ugh.

Scott Reifert used the classic \"if anyone was offended\" ... is that in some PR handbook or something?

But overall, I have to say, Ozzie comes out better than many in the homophobic scale. We definitely know that he's a phobe, and we definitely know that he can be a jerk. But given how locker rooms are, we also know that he used a term that is bandied about more often than HGH is passed around. MLB refuses, as far as I know, to address the issue. I'm much more concerned about Wickman's sexual harrassment of a gay locker room attendant, or even Carl Everett's comments.

But yeah, MLB and the Sox have a lot of work to do, as does Ozzie.

Yay, sox win tonight. frown

No, because all of those words would have resulted in suspension and/or firing.

No it wouldn't. I'm no going to put a shiny bow on it to make it easier for you to swallow. These words are out thereand the saad fact is that some people can get away with using them and some can't. The only one that is apparently acceptable for us all to use is fag. I'm about to use another one so cover your eyes.

How quickly would Mariotti been fired had he called Ozzie a spic? Or if he had turned the tables and called Ozzie a fag?

Anyway the folks at ESPN.com have this for a headline/link to the story of Ozzie's \"apology\":

So now we fags are a race. Are we from Fagola? Fagenstein? Fagland?

And the whole "in my country" thing is a load of crap. Ozzie has lived here for 25 years and even became a citizen. That makes this your country moron.

Interestingly, when ESPN reported the story last night on Sports Center, they showed the word "fag" on the screen as part of his quote, but the anchors would not say the word "fag" as they reported the story.

based on this comment alone, I don't know that. His sensitivity is certainly in need of raising, but how many men use that word in anger? Lots. I have.

His apology sounded more sincere than most. Move on.

Keith Olberman named Guillen "worst person in the world" last night for his remarks.

The phrase "To anyone who might have been offended at my remarks" is now standard. It takes the blame away from the speaker and puts it squarely on the listener. He's not sorry he said what he said. He's sorry that there's a bunch of pansy-asses out there who are so easily offended, and he's sorry that he's gotta deal with them. Again.

LXN

I've never used that word. I hate that word. If I ever call you or anyone that word, understand that it comes from a very dark, primal, horrible and uncontrollable place. You should probably run.

I'm tired of apologies frankly. From everwhere. That's the problem with living in a fundamental Christian environment. I can do or say whatever I want on Saturday night as long as my butt is in the pew on Sunday morning. It really bugs.

"Oh, in Venezuela, when we say someone is a dirty kike, it just means they're really cheap and aggressive -- it has nothing to do with those people."
His dubious explanation about the Venezuelan use of the word makes no sense because it's used exactly the same way here -- to refer directly to someone's (homo)sexual practices but also to traits associated with homosexuality <e.g. effeminacy, cowardice>. This secondary use (cf. "bitch") is widespread and equally offensive. Further, gay-offensive spanish-language words (e.g. maricon)have the same double usage (you are a maricon, you're acting like a maricon)
I read a Playboy interview with him (don't ask) and he's a little bit charming but mostly a jerk.

Typical. It seems that certain people get a pass when they make offensive remarks. And in MLB and other areas, certain forms of racism, as well as homophobia, is still acceptable. Perhaps that's why apologists for Guillen are not outraged that nothing was done. Maybe Guillen would have no problem if one called someone else an (expletive) (offensive Hispanic term), but it doesn't matter.

It is a disgrace that Guillen has done this more than once. And Guillen's apology made John Rocker's look heartfelt. And even worse, the MLB and the Chicago White Sox have done absolutely nothing about it. Where is Bud Selig on this? About the same place with the steroids scandal. Nowhere to be found. Despicable.

[ June 22, 2006, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: pat125 ]

Agreed, and it's not just baseball either. People also get away with making racist remarks against white people, anti-Asian remarks, and anti-Semitic remarks on websites, and still are allowed to slide without making any apologies for their reprehensible behavior. Or maybe it's just Yankee-haters?

It has just been reported that Guillen was fined by Bud Selig. Maybe a suspension (for the slur) will follow. That would send a stronger statement than a fine that will probably be meaningless.

Bud Selig's statement was okay, but more of the usual blah, blah, blah, instead of taking a real leadership position. He should have made a clearer statement that would say that all homophobic behaviors, in the locker room, etc., must end, or do that in the near future. But I'm not holding my breath on that.

Glad that he was fined but since he has done this before, he is never going to stop until he gets suspended. I hope the White Soxs crash and burn in the second half.

He was fined and ordered to go to sensitivity training. From a bit of video I saw on Sportscenter where he talked about the order from Selig, it's obvious the whole thing's a joke to him. Whatever training they do will be useless. Selig's response was a pathetic waste.

I still like my punishment idea better.

I applaud Jeff Passan's column on Yahoo! Sports in which he takes Guillen heavily to task... AND he documented his research into what we think about Guillen by reporting his trip to a gay sports bar. I don't think too many other sports columnists in straight media have done that.

And did you see how he said it?! In the piece I saw, in ESPN and CNN, when he got to the point of apologizing to the people he offended, he put air quotes around "offended," like that wasn't the correct word. He's an ass.

I'd like to say that it's a sports-related thing (the homophobia), or that possibly it's a cultural thing from where Guillen was brought up, but mostly, I think it's just cause he's an ass**** who can't come up with a better putdown than "fag". I know 8th graders with similar issues.

Call me crazy but I believe people have a constitutional right to voice their feelings about another human being. It's not the same as screaming "fire" in a public theater. I don't agree with him and would never say something like that, but he's free to do it. The point is, although he has the right to say it, he must also deal with the fallout from his remarks. Those of us who are offended have the right, the same freedom of speech, to challenge him or anyone else who makes racist, sexist, or homophobic remarks. And when the media called him on it, he had to crawfish his way out of it, and apologize.

I know Guillen is a fiery guy who's offends a lot of people (a lot like Ryan Leaf and John Rocker) every time he opens his mouth. But, unlike Leaf and Rocker, Guillen is a good guy, so I do believe that his remarks are a reflection of his culture. I like fiery and controversial sports figures, and I do not believe that he is a social homophobe. I think he used the word in a fit of anger, without any malicious intent toward gays, just the reporter. He has no history of using such words, and unless it happens again, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt on this. We all say things we shouldn't in a fit of anger.

So, go ahead to bash me if you want, but I believe him when he says he sorry, and, I accept his apology. He's the best manager in the league and manages the best team in the league, is fiercely patriotic, and a good ambassador for baseball. I think he deserves a chance to set things right. I think the required sensitivity training will help him do that. I could be wrong, but I do believe that he's a good and decent human being who, like all of us, simply made a mistake. Can't we just wait and see if these remarks are an accurate reflection of who Guillen is as a man?

[ June 23, 2006, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Thomas ]

No bashing, Thomas, but I do strongly disagree.

As the article at the top of this thread indicates, Guillen does indeed have a history of making homophobic comments, whether as a "joke", or in anger, or claiming cultural ignorance, or whatever.

As far as being an "ambassador of baseball", what kind of "diplomatic message" does Guillen send by making these comments, and these comments being tolerated by MLB? As a baseball ambassador he should know full well his comments do indeed reflect who he is as a man and as a purported messenger of worldwide unity through sports.

Who would want to see this jackass at the Gay Games saying something classy like "Hey, good luck to all you fags, I mean, well, you know, YOUR KIND OF PEOPLE competing today."

The first time this occurred it MAY indeed have been just ignorance. But several reported incidents? NOPE.

[ June 23, 2006, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: rstetradio ]

I'd like to ask Thomas what makes Guillen a "good guy" Apparently some of us have different definitions of that term just like some folks have a different definition for "faggot"

[ June 23, 2006, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: eddiec. ]

I wonder how many folks on this board would be making a fuss if he'd called that writer "a pussy"? (Which is a much closer equivalent to what he said than an ethnic slur.)

I'd have been fine with p*ssy. Please send OG a note. P*ssy good. F*g bad.

[Edited to Add]



[ June 23, 2006, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Maddog ]

So "pussy" isn't misogynist, but "fag" is always homophobic? Or maybe misogyny is just A-OK.

[ June 23, 2006, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Bill W ]

Neither is really all that acceptable. Not in public statements. Not when you're in that kind of position.
Something that was said privately, in the locker room or among friends that leaks out, is one thing. But he's consistently making statements like this to reporters (and, in this case, about a reporter). From someone who needs to be a role model (for his team, if for nobody else), this really isn't acceptable in this day and age.
Maybe he's manic depressive - it's either really grumpy or really happy with him. Damn bipolar managers.
In any event, he's been fined. That's as bad as it's going to get for him. This will all blow over.
For me, I think the talk of racial epithets at the World Cup matches are much more scary and dangerous.

You're wrong. He made anti-gay remarks just last year. He's now a repeat offender. He no longer gets the benefit of the doubt.

As to people being allowed to say what they think ...
If Guillen was mad at a reporter, called him a jerk, an idiot, a fraud, an a-hole, whatever, that is a name directed against that individual. It may or may not be deserved, but it is still between Guillen and the reporter.
When he calls the man a "fag" he is saying "you are like a gay man". Clearly, a gay man is something terrible to be. If he called him a "pussy" or "bitch" he would be saying "you are like a woman" and clearly a woman is something terrible to be.
In other words, this reporter is not a jerk. This reporter is less than a man. A fag. A pussy. A bitch.
That is not "saying what you think" any more than calling Guillen a spic is "saying what you think". It is an attack and a slur on millions of people whose existence is branded inferior.

Bud Selig is an invertebrate and a bad commissioner. He is not a "kike". There is a difference.

Sorry. I forgot the...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas:
[QB]
...and I do not believe that he is a social homophobe. I think he used the word in a fit of anger, without any malicious intent toward gays, just the reporter....

Guillen's comments were intentional and whether they were maliscious or not is irrelevent. They were wrong and very damaging. The fact that we are debating this on a gay sports website is interesting in that almost all of us can relate to/ tell a personal story about how the very term Guillen used has inhibited us in our past/present athletic pursuits. How many young gay boys and girls have had their enjoyment of sports diminished because someone has used that term in a derogatory sense and in turn forced us to have to deal with the very real fact that being gay and being in sports may not be acceptable? And all of us can relate to that very lonely feeling....
Guillen's comments, MLB's response, and some peoples comments on this site indicate that sports still cannot be enjoyed by everyone--because acceptance/inclusion is still a long way off.

[ June 23, 2006, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Rogerdodger ]

All I know is like somebody said above...if it was a racial slur we wouldn't hear the end of it. But now we'll barely hear about it because its an attack on gays.

f**k Ozzie Guillen, thats all I have to say.

People all over the country with access to WGN on their cable - and that includes more of you than probably realize it - should watch its "morning, noon and nine" (CDT) newscasts to confirm that this story is getting A LOT of airtime on "Chicago's Own" superstation. In fact, it was the lead story on last night's newscast.

No one is questioning his constitutional rights
to use whatever language he wants. However, this does not give him--or anyone else--carte blanche to speak without accepting the consequences engendered by his words. It often seems people forget that the right of free speech includes accepting responsibility for one's speech.

~Adam

Guys, this is the same Ozzie Guillen who allowed himself to be pictured around the world engaged in lip locks with Jose Contresas and Freddy Garcia, right? He seems very comfortable touching his players, even to the point of kissing. I'm having a hard time reconciling those images with homophobia. In fact, I'm more inclined to believe that, while heterosexual, he identifies more with the minority, the oppressed, and the underrepresented. Why? Because we personify feelings he endured as a player; unappreciated, under-valued, pushed aside, and treated with contempt. He manages the ChiSoxs the same way he played the game, aggressively, and with something to prove.

I did go back and read the article that started this thread. I'm even more convinced that all of Ozzie's remarks were designed for shock value; e.g., blue humor for reporters, or, typical jock one-liners and/or one-ups-manship. I've heard that word used in many locker rooms. Some use it to bully others into playing more aggressively. Some use it to vent anger and frustration on opposing players who kicked our ass. So, I know firsthand that the word is common to many locker rooms.

Guillen is product of that locker room jock culture, and that culture is still alive and well inside his psyche. He's insensitive, a colorful guy, a loose cannon that, in a locker room of men, is fun to be around (his players love him), but I don't know if he's the right man to manage the ChiSoxs in an age of political correctness. He doesn't seem to recognize that once he accepted the managerial position, he became spokesman and ambassador for an entire sports franchise and sexually diverse city. Because he was out of step with the broader sensitivities, he and the ChiSoxs are paying the price for his immaturity.

His words hurt us becaus we came to know them, but they were not directed at us; they were directed at specific individuals with whom he was either joking or angry. When I think back on hearing that word in school locker rooms, I have to believe that not all of those guys were homophobes. They couldn't be; I was friends with some of them. Even though that word is used in the privacy of a secluded locker room, it's utterance does not automatically infer hommophobia. I'll bet most guys were trying to establish a rite of passage by mixing it up with their teammates, to show some tuffness, earn some respect, and simply fit in.

Ozzie is a big man with a big mouth that is stuck in an adolescent time warp; he probably never matured beyond adolescent, testosterone-laden, locker room banter. Okay. He's insensitive; an immature jerk; says things he shouldn't; but I don't believe any man comfortable enough in his skin to publicly kiss his players could ever use that word with malicious intent. He was simply trying to shock us, piss off a reporter, be funny, and get a rise out of the media. In short, he was just being Ozzie.

[ June 23, 2006, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Thomas ]

There are plenty of male friends, relatives, etc. who kiss each other. That doesn't mean they can't be homophobic.

By that logic, there are very few Italian or Middle Eastern homophobes.

It has been reported here on the local news that in an interview today, Ozzie said he isn't going to sensitivity training. "What's that?" inquired Ozzie, when asked about Commissioner Selig's order to attend sensitivity training. "I'm not going. I have a job to do."

Interesting.

From a preview of an ESPN interview with White Sox GM Kenny Williams:

The latest in the Chicago Tribune (Sunday):

John Rocker says his sensitivity training was a farce ("The guy told me when I got there I had to show up to make it look good for people, so after about 15 minutes I left and walked right out of the rooom and it satisfied the powers that be.") and his fine, which had been reduced from $20,000 to only $500, a sham ("I never paid a cent, a lot of players never pay a cent. It's just a front to look good and the way Selig cowers to pressure.")