Ah, the time of year when clinically insane suggestions of Shannon Stewart and David Ortiz as MVP candidates fill the media... and for at least the third or fourth time, A-Rod clearly deserves the award, as Rob Neyer cogently illustrates. Argue with the logic.

Actually that is a pretty good article. I love the way it acknowledged the season that Jorge Posada has been having. I have personally been picking Carlos Delgado as the AL MVP. But, the argument for Alex Rodriguez is extremely strong.

In discussing MVP I always like to consider what the team would be like without that player. With or without A-Rod, the Texas Rangers are still a last place team. But without Carlos Delgado or Manny Ramirez, Toronto and Boston would not likely be where they are now in terms of wins. (Same could be said for the Dodgers without Gagne.)

The Yankees, though, have such a stacked team that it's hard to credit the success of the team to any one player. All of Soriano, Jeter, Williams, Giambi, Posada and Matsui are important... but I would rank Jorge Posada at the top of the list.

I'm inclined to give it to Carlos Delgado as he's the pole that holds up the Blue Jay tent.

Interesting no mention of Vernon Wells, who is currently #1 in hits, #6 in batting average, #4 in runs, #9 in home runs, #5 in RBI, #1 in total bases.

Or because you're a Jays fan. Wouldn't they finish third or fourth without him?

I don't understand taking a guy's teammates into account when it's an individual award. It should go to the best player, period (and Neyer illustrates above why A-Rod is better than Delgado).

ESPN's Jayson Stark says NO to MVP for A-Rod

Billy, canmark is right. Too many people perceive the MVP as the league's best player, or something like that. Let's not forget the "V" in MVP and just what it means. Is A-Rod valuable to the Rangers? Sure, but take him off the team this year and see how the Rangers would have done without him.

A-Rod is damn good, but he's certainly not the AL MVP.

[ September 22, 2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: MIB ]

The problem is that the value "rule" hasn't been consistently applied. MVPs have been chosen from last place teams before, and often with much less impressive credentials than A-Rod (Andre Dawson in 1987, for example).

I wasn't able to see the article, but I think I'd argue in favor of Carlos Delgado for MVP. At least he didn't fake being sick to go hang with his buddies from the other team *cough* Manny Ramirez *cough*. Without A-Rod, the Rangers would not just be a last place joke, but they'd be unwatchable. Without Manny, the Red Sox still have a dangerous lineup and may actually have a better defense. Without Delgado, Toronto is battling the Devil Rays for last place, and may actually be BEHIND the Devil Rays.

A *player* is valuable according to how good he, and he alone, is. Period. I don't understand any other definition.

Even if you subscribe to the other definitions, there is no standout among the contenders' players (Boone and Posada would probably be my runnersup, but with several others close behind). What's strange is the anti-A-Rod people seem to me like the types who will irrationally support Pujols over Bonds in the other league. i.e., playa-hatin'.

[ September 22, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Bill W ]

How do you define a good player? Based on talent alone? By that definition, looking at two former Phillies first basemen, are you going to say that Travis Lee is a better player than Pete Rose was? Based on stats? Which stats are more important than others? Do intangible qualities such as leadership come into play anywhere?

Baseball blogger Aaron Gleeman is doing a pretty cool analysis of the major individual awards this week ... he favors Tim Hudson and Brandon Webb, among others, and his breakdown of the most meaningful stats is quite concise.

Based on careful analysis of stats, yes; how else? Aside from guys on your "home team," how many TV / live games a year are you going to watch a specific MLB player in? Ten? Fewer? What method are you going to use to analyze his performance in the other 150?

The field of sabermetrics is all about which stats are more important. Opinions vary, but you know where else to look. wink

And how do you measure leadership, of all things? By who locker-room politicians and tabloid propagandists shill for? Calling it "intangible" acknowledges it can't be analyzed.

[ September 24, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Bill W ]

But it can't just be ignored, either.

:confused: So... you just think real hard and guess? Measurable leadership is contributing on the field, all the rest is the kind of silly hagiography that created St. Cal of Ripken.

I don't think so, and I doubt that anyone who's ever played on a winning team in a professional sport would think so either. That's a very cold, cynical viewpoint.

Let me be clear... I think there *are* doubtlessly leadership issues on pro sports teams. there's just no way for Joe Fan to know what the story is. I also think it doesn't affect won-loss totals a scintilla as much as ability.

This week I'm really gettin' the "cold" j'accuse for puncturing media mythologies. You guys know Doubleday didn't invent baseball, right?

[ September 25, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Bill W ]

Tell that to the 2002 Angels. They should have, by your stats-obsessed standards, been swept in the first round. But leadership, desire, pulling together as a team etc. are just as, if not more, important than somebody's f**king OBP or whether they walk 30 times or 300.

Or tell that to the 1997 Angels. They were in the thick of the race until Mo Vaughn decided to not lift his fat ass and join a basebrawl. Which lead to a core of players threatening mutiny if he was played the next day, which lead to Terry Collins losing control of the clubhouse and so on. Would they have made the playoffs otherwise? Possible, slightly, but the clubhouse implosion certainly ruined any chance of finding out.

Or tell that to....

If it was based overwhelmingly on talent, as you claim, we could just give the Lakers, for example, the trophy now and not even bother to play the season. Or give Oklahoma or Nebraska the national title every year. But sports doesn't work that way and I, for one, don't buy all this stats-mania quantifying of things.
Well, you obviously revel in the pose, but, amazingly enough, sometimes the media and fans are right. Not always, but enough times. Playing devil's advocate is just as much a cul-de-sac as people that buy newpaper articles that Sammy Sosa = The Second Coming.

[ September 26, 2003, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Big kudos to Carlos Delgado for his four HR performance last night -- only the 15th man in MLB history to accomplish that feat!....I think Delgado deserves the AL MVP (despite Peter Gammons' recent claims that David Ortiz should win it ) and Carlos' record-setting performance may have swayed the vote of a few last minute "fence sitters" and solidified his position once and for all.

Were you at the game, canmark?....I notice no more Jays starting pitchers have been thrown out in the past few days so maybe the umps finally got your message. ....on an unrelated issue, what do you think of the new Jays logo and unis they have unveiled for 2004?

No, I was at the Wednesday game, the game where there were no ejections and no home runs by Carlos Delgado.

When I first saw the new "Jays" logo (I was at the game where they unveiled the new logo) I thought it remniscent of the D-Rays "Rays" logo. The more I see it, the less I like it. Then again, the Jays have never had a good logo, so it's par for the course.

Congrats to Carlos... but he doesn't deserve the MVP (which shouldn't be decided by ONE meaningless late-season game, oui?). Delgado has produced a mere 3 more Equivalent Runs over the season than A-Rod, a difference that is more than made up by a shortstop's defensive contribution.

Toronto will likely win the AL East within the next couple years, and Delgado figures to be a frontrunner when that occurs.

Wow! -- now that's quite a prediction, Bill....and I'm sure the Yanks, BoSox and O's will be interested to see whether or not that turns out to be accurate....now if O's management will only come to their senses (something they haven't exactly been known for in recent years ) and re-sign Mike Hargrove along with one or two top free agents (most notably Vlad Guerrero and a #1 starter like Vazquez or Millwood, perhaps) to go along with their impressive young nucleus of hitters they'll be contending for a postseason berth a lot sooner than most people expect -- but if Angelos and co-GM's Flanagan and Beattie dump Hargrove for Jerry Narron (Beattie's guy), as the media has been speculating, then you can expect more of the same mediocrity at Camden Yards for the foreseeable future.

[ September 26, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

Toronto does have a great nucleus of young talent, but they had that ca. 1998 and it failed to pan out...

But they did not have JP Ricciardi as GM then, one of the new breed (like Epstein and Beane) who know what they're doing.

There is that. Gord Ash was dreadful.

Despite getting only SIX first-place votes Alex Rodriguez wins the AL MVP award. Ten different players got at least one first-place vote.

And bringing it back to my first post, the nitwit bloc elevated Stewart and Ortiz to 4th and 5th in the voting.

My ballot would've gone Rodriguez-Boone-Delgado-Ramirez-Pedro-Nomar, then Posada, Hudson, Wells and Bill Mueller in some order...

I wish I could get an automatic $250,000 raise just by finishing 10th!

I would have gone: 1. Delgado, 2. Rodriguez, 3. Posada, 4. Stewart, 5. Wells. However, at least A-Rod finally got his MVP, which is something he has deserved for some time.

I hate to see any competition be a foregone conclusion, so I was rooting against A-Rod, but I think I can make an argument that he deserves it that cannot be refuted:

The Texas Rangers had a ROAD attendance percentage of 64.3% The second most of any AL team (behind those hated Yankees, whose spawn seem to contaminate the world, and just in front of my beloved Red Sox). We all know people weren't filling up those stadiums to see if Rafael Palmiero had an erection..(it's too easy, don't even bother)...they were there to see A-Rod. So if one were to argue who is the most VALUABLE in a monetary sense, and one could argue, valuable to the LEAGUE, as opposed to his team, how can anyone compare to A-Rod?

I have no problem with A-Rod finally garnering the AL MVP--he has deserved it before this season. That there was no true consensus candidate splintered the vote every which way, seemingly by region. My question has to do with the fact that 10 players received first place votes--has there been a year when more than 10 have received first place votes? And, of course, now A-Rod has something in common with Andre Dawson & Cal Ripken--MVPs from losing teams.

~Adam

I read variously that:

A-Rod's 6 first place votes were the fewest for an MVP since 1957 (Mickey Mantle).

10 players receiving first place votes last occured in the AL in 1977. The record is 11 in the NL in 1947.

-------

A-Rod is only the second person to win MVP while playing for a last place team (Andre Dawson in 1987 for the Cubs is the other). A-Rod also won this year's Gold Glove.

From ESPN.com:
"Delgado got two eighth-place votes and was left off the ballot by Joe Cowley of the Daily Southtown in Chicago. Cowley also left off Toronto center fielder Vernon Wells, while including Esteban Loaiza and Frank Thomas of the White Sox."

Actually, 2 writers failed to place Delgado in the top 10. I can't figure that out. I have no problems with him not finishing first, but surely a .302 BA (15th), 42 HRs (T-2nd), 117R (T-4th), 145RBI (1st), .426OBP (2nd), .593SLG (2nd), 1.019OPs (1st) is at least as good as 10th best in the league.

Loiaza received only 1 vote, from the above Chicago writer.

[ November 17, 2003, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]

A-Rod deserves it. After all, just where would the Rangers have been without him? Last place! He was a big reason why Texas finished so well this year.

Being more a fan of the Blue Jays fan than the Rangers, I would have been happy for Carlos Delgado if he had won the MVP award, but team allegiances or team standings shouldn't enter into the picture. A-Rod deserved it.

In another thread, Keith posted

A-Rod AL MVP

Congrats on what is being called a close victory.

But what's shocking most off all is that, my man, Jason Giambi even made the list.

Way to go Jason!

[ November 19, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: m1 ]