The Brigham Young U Cougars are undefeated, perfect, 12-0.
Sure, they played a pathetically easy schedule. But that's not entirely their fault. When they scheduled Mississippi State, they thought they would play a tough national program from the SEC West, a team that in recent years had played in the SEC championship game. Colorado State and UNLV, within the Mountain West, were supposed to be better this year than they ended up. And who knew the Cal Golden Bears would stink that badly? Sure, they've barely been squeaking by the last few games, but they were overwhelming teams earlier in the year, like the Tulane game at the beginning of the season where they seemingly scored at will.
I understand not ranking them in the Top 5. Even keeping them out of the Top 10 is justifiable based on strength of schedule. Maybe they didn't have a BCS-calibre season. But to leave them out completely out of anybody's rankings, as some did voting on the Outsports.com rankings, there isn't any excuse. C'mon, they're clearly better than mid-major programs like Marshall, Louisville or Toledo.
This is a major college program that has just gone undefeated, perfect, without a single blemish. I can't think of any legitimate reason to leave them out of anyone's rankings. I can think of a reason though: religious bias. Do you think religious bigotry played any part in anyone here's decision to not even rank the LDS Cougars? And, if it did, anyone think that's legitimate? I would think that we of all people would know the dangers of prejudice and discrimination .... And before anyone says gays hae suffered more than Mormons, please note that they're have been some awful massacres of U.S. citizens who are practicing the Mormon faith in our nation's history, for whatever reason.

Disclaimer: I have dated Mormon boys. At least one of whom loved his BYU Cougars.

I don't know about the national pundits, but I'd guess one reason the Outsports voters "just said no" was that, because the players had to wear ther temple underwear under their football pants, you couldn't see anything good .......

CITT, before you give those Mormon boys (yum, yum - rank right up there with all the Army-Navy studs from last Saturday in the "eye candy" dept.) credit for a perfect regular season, keep in mind that BYU still has one more regular season game remaining this Sat. at Hawaii....Now Hawaii remains on my short list of the most hated teams in college football thanks to June Jones and their equally homophobic AD after their comments regarding the removal last year of the rainbow symbol from ALL university athletics and the subsequent nickname change from the Rainbow Warriors to just the Warriors due to the "negative connotation" with gays -- therefore, I hope that all those "straight" Brigham Young studs whip Hawaii unmericfully....however, having said that, Hawaii is 8-3 and did upset Fresno State (including the hottest QB in the country) at home in October so the Cougars undefeated season is hardly a certainty.

As for BYU's schedule, did anyone notice that the Cougars were 6-6 last year, with four of the losses coming to teams they defeated this season?.....last season's losses included Mississippi State 44-28, Air Force 31-23, San Diego State 16-15, and Colorado State 45-21....so as Charlie properly pointed out, strenth of schedule is at least partially biased by the uncertain quality of the opponents during that particular season.

Oh yeah, Charlie, as for your disclaimer -- if you run into any "available" Mormon boys out there in Vegas or during your travels out West please send at least 1 or 2 of them my way....after all, a boy like me who suffered thru Catholic school as a youth is entitled to a little variety, don't ya think?

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: gamecock ]

I call dibs. Five years of rabbinic seminary (four of them high school) trumps anything in Catholic school.

Granted, jqueer, you got me on that one -- five years of rabbinic seminary :eek: ....that alone should entitle you to whatever man (or men?) your heart desires....is it true that EVERYTHING is bigger in Texas?

As for those hot Mormon boys, don't you think there are plenty of them to go around?....or do you not believe in sharing?....too bad so many of them are "stuck" in Utah....I'm sure that I could show them a grand time here on the east coast and give them a "mission" that they will really remember.

Sharing is overrated, but there probably are more than I can handle. Tell you what, we meet up in SLC in February, take in a few Olympic type stuff and winnow our way through those beautiful Mormon boys. How's that sound?

Now that's what I call a great way to spend the month of February -- very little pro sports of consequence going on (after the Super Bowl on Feb. 3rd) and what better way to avoid shoveling all that snow back east?....being able to see all those hot young Olympians "up close and personal" (I've always had a special liking for the gymnasts) in SLC along with all those Mormon boys in Utah -- I know this is getting "off topic" but that is quite a thought.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming -- BYU should not be penalized for the fact that several of the teams they scheduled in the 90's happened to have "down years" in 2001 (i.e., Cal, Mississippi State, and Nevada)....the Cougars may not deserve a Rose Bowl bid but if they beat Hawaii on Saturday to finish 13-0 they certainly deserve to be in the BCS and receive a bid to one of the four "major bowls".

Well I am one of those who didn't rank them. And I agree they can't help what happened to Mississippi State this year. But all the more reason they should have pounded them at least as impressively as powerhouse Troy State did. They didn't.

I certainly didn't leave them out because of any religious bias. Any other team from that conference with the same record and schedule wouldn't get my vote either.

I don't have anything against the mid-majors either. Fresno State was way up in my rankings when they were unbeaten against the likes of Colorado, Oregon State and Wisconsin. They even stayed ranked after one loss. I only dropped them after the second loss.

As for being better than Louisville, Marshall and Toledo, agreed. None of them got my vote either. I gave way more credit to teams like Michigan, Georgia, Washington State and other 2 or 3 loss teams that play tough conference schedules.

Now tell us more about the Mormon boy you dated!

Umm, Charlie. Are you saying that the Mormon church's reprehensible treatment of its gay and lesbian members -- and of non-Mormon gays and lesbians in states where they have significant pull -- is somehow justified because the US government used to be mean to them? I mean, in the 19th century, the USA was mean to EVERYONE, within its borders and without, including (but not limited to) slaves AND slave owners, aboriginal Americans, women, blah blah blah. What does one have to do with the other?

I don't vote in the college football polls, and if I did I would certainly have BYU in my top 15 if not my top 5. But how can you call it bigotry to be angry at (and want to "get even" with) a university that would not even ALLOW YOU TO GO TO SCHOOL THERE because of its own bigotry. Not depending on whether you're Mormon or not, but depending on whether you're gay or not!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly, it's not like it was the Homosexual States of America persecuting the Mormons. They have no reason to f**k their own gay members over, other than pure bigotry. In fact, the early Mormon church was pretty damn liberal towards gays, and there are even rumors about Joseph Smith's bisexuality. That church up until the late part of the 1900s said that no blacks could become saints in the church. Then they had a "revelation". Yeesh!

Please don't blame the victim for wanting to take a stand against his own persecution by calling that stand "bigotry". Mkay?

I don't think there is religious bigotry in this year's treatment of BYU. Let's not forget they were voted National Champions in 1984 when they played a weak WAC schedule and beat a 6-5 Michigan team in the Holiday Bowl. Their problem this year has more to do with the fact they were 6-6 last year and unranked at the beginning of the season. Playing out West, a lot of Easterners who vote in the polls probably did not realize they were unbeaten in September and October. It was only after Fresno State lost and other unbeatens began to lose that people started to pay attention to them. They are absolutely a Top Ten team. With their conference tie-in to the Liberty Bowl, they have no choice but to go there and play a good, but not great, Louisville team. We will never know how they would do against an Oregon, Illinois, Texas, etc.

By the way, did anyone else see that hunk Luke Staley broke his fibula at the end of the Miss. State game? It appears to be a minor fracture and he is not having surgery, but just in a walking cast. He won't play against Hawaii, but they are not ruling out playing in the Liberty Bowl. I got dibs on helping Luke with his recovery.

I saw an interesting BYU article yesterday. Apparently, the BCS committee has "released" some of their top 12 teams (including BYU) from consideration. They claim this is so the teams can make other bowl plans -- not waiting around to hear about BCS at-large opportunities. The teams released were only 2 or 3 (they have to pick 2 of the 6 teams that do not automatically qualify by winning their conferences) in number.

This action really ruffled the BYU community. They are guaranteed a spot in the (less than top-notch) Liberty Bowl, so making other plans was not a consideration. They are the only undefeated team in the top 12 released (since Miami already has wrapped up the Rose invitation).

Most infuriating to the school was the fact they still have to travel to Honolulu this week and play that 8-3 Hawaii team. The BYU coach threw out an interesting claim. He stated that he thought the BCS committee released his team so that there was nothing for them to play for this weekend. After all, letting down their guard and losing would eliminate some pressure on the selection committee. ("See, we knew they were not really as strong as they seemed.")

The other interesting thing I read in the article is the huge discrepancy in the Bowl payouts for BYU. They will receive $1.3MM for the Liberty (a nice payout in my opinion). If they were selected as an at-large bid, they would have received at least $11MM for their bowl appearance.

This, in my opinion, really spells out the true issue for BYU. If a Bowl and the BCS committee are going to pick a team, that team is going to put butts in seats and money in the register. BYU would have to play in either New Orleans or Miami if selected at-large. Their ability to "travel" well to either place is somewhat doubtful. (Especially when Florida could be sent to the Orange, and another southern team to the Sugar.)

So, a two loss team will likely get an at-large bid (Florida), while BYU will be touring Graceland and wondering why they got left out. I think it comes down to the money issue. Which leads us back to the need for a more balanced approach to the football championship. As long as there is such serious cash at stake, the big, powerful schools will always make sure the process is slanted in their favor.

The NCAA football overseers need to look at the Final Four and some non-revenue sports (volleyball and soccer for example) whose championships generate much greater excitement and following. (And yes, cash in some cases.) I, for one, find the bowls much less interesting and fun than they were ten years ago. And the whole "national championship" game concept really does feel like a sham when every year a great team (or at least worthy team) seems to get the shaft over a larger and more popular school.

Curious that the issue of religious bias toward the LDS church & BYU would be brought up, in the absence of any such expression on the part of the Outsports pollsters hereto. That said, I don't have any problem ranking BYU in the top ten, though top five would be a stretch, I think. I do have serious problems with the LDS church, however, relating to their stance toward us. This church has consistently fought to deny us civil rights or even basic tolerance everywhere it has power and influence, whether it be in the schools of Salt Lake City, the Boy Scouts of America, or Hawaii during the gay marriage debate. Am I a bigot to denounce it for that? What if I state that Joseph Smith was a charlatan and Brigham Young a ruthless opportunist? Or that the Mormons have not been above playing the role of persecutor (the Mountain Meadows massacre of 1857). Or that their theology often borders on quackery?
Of course, every one has the right to his/her opinion. I know that Mormons are not bad people & I make an honest effort not to let my feelings toward the church affect my feelings or treatment toward any Mormon individual. Absolutely I think their football team is deserving of something better than the Liberty Bowl. But I do have problems with the LDS church, with its disproportionate political influence, and with the pass that it receives from the mainstream media.

BYU to Sue??

It may sound crazy, but it makes a whole lot of sense to me: BYU, if it beats Hawai'i, will have been unfairly excluded from the mega-cash the bowls give out due to the monopoly of the Big 6 conferences (which it can't join). Playoff! Playoff!

BYU to Sue?

BYU has plenty of fans (with plenty of $$) to send to any bowl. The real money issue is tied to the conference affiliations.

The BCS is run by the big six conferences -> And each conference splits the payouts for their teams in bowls -> So, only teams from the big six get in BCS bowls (oh, plus Notre Dame).
They share $40 million over 8-years with non-BCS institutions (only a few hundred schools), compared with $11-$14 million for each conference per game. BCS info

BYU won the national championship in 1984 because they started the year ranked and everyone above them kept losing. It also created a lot of controversy then because BYU played in a crappy conference. It was too bad then, and too bad now that they can't play a better team in a bowl (assuming they beat a decent Hawaii team). Even a win over a quality non-BCS team like Stanford or Oklahoma would give them legitimacy, but they're stuck playing another mid-major team.

Anyhow, regarding CIIT's original post, I don't think bigotry has anything to do with BYU's ranking. I think it's their terrible schedule. It's likely that many of the top-10-15 teams would be undefeated if they played BYU's schedule. I think not ranking them is hard to justify, and it's quite an accomplishment to be undefeated after so many games.

I vote for a 16-team playoff. How could that *not* generate more money and interest than bowls? Where is that petition again???

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: BballDC ]

Sorry buddy cant buy the religious bigotry issue nor do I agree that they are clearly better than Louisville. I predict that Louisville will beat them in the Liberty Bowl. Granted you cannot penalize them for their schedule but at the same time they need not be overly rewarded.

As for alot of fans, yes they probably do have alot of fans but to say they have a larger following than Michigan, Tennessee, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Nebraska (the teams they might knock out of the BCS) is stretching it. Another reality check (sad but true) is that BYU isnt know for spending money at the bowl. With all the tee-totalers they dont spend the bucks in the cities hosting the bowl games (fellas this is not a knock on them for not drinking, just a reality check)

Sorry to see Luke Staley get hurt, he is one hunk of a man.

CITT said


Yeah, and I gave nary a vote to Marshall, Louisville or Toledo in my poll. The fact remains...BYU's schedule was rated as 105 out of 117 teams. Perhaps some of the teams they scheduled fell on their faces this year.

But the fact remains that BYU is playing 13 regular season games this year (how the Hell does the NCAA allow that?). And they've only played 3 teams with winning records. So now they play a 8-3 Hawaii squad. Bravo! So they finally play a decent team...not that 8-3 in the WAC makes for a formidable foe.

My opinion of BYU has NOTHING to do with religious bias. I do not favor or punish any school on its religious status. I only look at schedule and opponents. If BYU had beaten, say, a Fresno State or Oregon or Texas A&M, I would completely change my opinion of them, and would put them in my Top 10.

But they haven't. And they won't, at least not this year.

If you play 13 regular season games, my belief is that you should schedule somebody from the upper echelons.

And now BYU plays C-USA champ Louisville. Whoop-de-woo! The Cards play in yet another mid-range conference.

First a couple notes...the men's DI basketball championship makes money, #2 is men's lacrosse, and #3 is men's ice hockey. I got a report tonight that the rest of the NCAA Championships committee is $500,000 in the hole THIS FAR into the season. We were told that without question, it's all about money at this point.

Let's also look at the Humanitarian Bowl. Dalis (UCLA AD) said thanks but no thanks to a $300,000 corporate sponsorship in order to attend, while Clemson (actually the ACC) took them up on it. I find that awful. The Humanitarian Bowl stated that they "did not make the sponsorship a requirement" but they really did, just not in those words. Pretty much all of the lesser bowls have schools that eventually lose money. The BCS Bowls are revenue producing, but to be honest after the schools pay for the travel and lodging for the team, the staff, and often the rest of the Athletic Department, there's not much left.

OK now back on track. I voted BYU in the poll. Mr. CITT, I think it is too much to say it religious bigotry; I think that it comes more from previous ideas of who is supposed to be where (preseason rankings) and the rank of the BYU schedule. These two combined keep the Cougars out of polls, and the computer rankings are also killing the BCS ranking of themselves. Hawaii will be tough, but I really hope that a team competes for its own sake,, not for the sake what it thinks it should.

I think BYU being overlooked by pollsters and bigots like me as being "Gawd's Will".

Thank you CITT! BYU is my #1 team for the simple reason that they have the best record in the country. Period. Anyone who wins all their games should be playing for the National Championship. If they don't, that means that every year there are certain teams in D.1 who are not "allowed" to win it all. It's just bullshit.

Well it looks like God is a Hawaii fan. 31-10 at halftime. One more half and hopefully we won't have to hear another word about this pretender! Don't let the BCS door hit you on the way out, Cougars!

Man I'm really gonna have to eat crow if they come back in the second half! :eek:

Cyd, I'd agree that it was unfair that BYU had no chance to win the national championship, if the NCAA had dictated their schedule. But as it is, they're like a tennis player who doesn't play Tier 1 tournaments complaining about not being ranked #1. They know how national champions are selected, and they did not schedule to give themselves a shot at the championship. Why do you think Florida St plays Florida & Miami every year? Because they want to wreck their undefeated seasons?

If Miami had been left out in the cold, I might have been sympathetic, because they scheduled two teams--Washington & Florida St that are often in the top 10 out of their conference. If Fresno St had gone undefeated, they would have at least gotten into a BCS game I expect, since they would have to be ranked above Colorado. If Marshall had gone undefeated, they would have gotten in, because they would have beaten Florida. But BYU knew damn well that they probably wouldn't have a top 25 team on their schedule this year, unless Miss St had a particularly good year. It's their own fault.

At Hawaii 65 BYU 38 in the middle of the 4th quarter, I think the final nail is in the coffin. I just hope BYU has the sense to withdraw its lawsuit monday morning before they get really embarrassed in court. Can you just imagine a judge trying to keep a straight face while hearing motions after this kind of loss?

And don't tell me they would have won if they had Luke Staley. They're defense has looked shaky all year, and they finally played a team with a real offense and got toasted.

WWJD?

72-45! Like a college basketball score.

I'm sort of sorry BYU lost. Anything that helps bring down the BCS is a good thing (so GO GO GO, LSU!), so even though BYU's possible lawsuit was pretty much bogus, if it helped bring about a playoff I'd be all for it.

I for one am glad BYU lost. I hate them and I hate their school. Surprised? Not if you were a Utah native and gay. I was raised Mormon and even was a missionary (and yes I know what a hottie I was for all of you Mormon Missionary fetishists out there!) <g>

Now all of that is behind me, I'm out and gay and living in delicious sin with another former Mormon man from the bay area.

You may think it odd that we decided to live in Utah. Well, I have lived a few places in this country and we actually quite like it here. We travel frequently to both coasts and a variety of other places and my usual opinion is.... nice place to visit, but (you know the rest!)

Anyway, those BYU guys can be hotties. But they do NOt wear their temple garments under their football uniforms. Don't be so silly. But ther are just as many hotties playing at the other universities here in Utah (like the one I attended) and just because they are Mormon and from a homophobic religion, doesn't mean they don't like to play occasionally.

We have a joke here: "What's the number one pickup line in a Utah gay bar?"

Answer: "So where did you go on your mission?"

(NOTE: There actually are gay bars here, in case you didn't know!)

Any more LDS-related (i.e. Mormon)questions?
I'd be glad to answer. Been doing it all my life.

Oh, before I go...one more thing. Don't EVER believe that "he can't be gay - he's married!" shit. Both the b/f and I were married and between us we have 7 kids. (yeah our semen was powerful!) And the kids are with us a lot and all get along and none are stark-raving psychos with mental problems.

Oh, and we were all cheering (2 dads and 5 of the kids) for BYU to lose and lose big!

Wow, Utah, I enjoyed your story. Sounded kind of like a gay/Mormon/Brady Bunch kind of thing with all the kids!

I worked briefly with a straight LDS fellow from Eden UT, which is right in your 'hood. He was a really terrific guy. Regardless of official LDS policy, since then I've tended to cut LDS members some slack. I always say "hi" to the missionaries in the area. But I'm still not signing up.

Actually, I'm a BYU alum and an Outsports pollster. I was the first to rank BYU #1 this year. I enjoyed my time at BYU, though i could never go back. I also served an LDS mission, but I openly oppose everything that Mormons stand for. For some reason, I still love BYU football and will stand by my team, no matter how bigoted and homophobic the school and its sponsor-religion maybe.

I don't blame people on this list for being biased against BYU. I have schools that I will not support for various reasons. That said, BYU has a great tradition of fun and exciting games, and has beaten its share of big name programs over the years. I'm glad to see them so improved over last year. If they can get the defense back to what it was in the mid-1990s, and keep the offense at its current level, they could win the national title.

Unfortunately, this year they had scheduled teams with down years, after playing Florida St., Virginia and Syracuse last year. I think their schedule gets tougher the next few years, so I hope to see them regain their national prominence.

I guess I'm not surprised there are gay bars in Utah, but I am wondering what kind of harassment they receive from the local authorities--do local officials try and shut them down, etc.

Not really.. they check up on them occasionally to see if they are following the rules and liquor laws, but they do that for all bars, so I think it is a non-issue.

The BYU "Standards Committee" (aka Provo Taliban) DO send spies to the gay bars to write down the license plate numbers of cars that are from the county where BYU is located (each county has a sticker on the license plate indicating where it is registered). I had a female friend who attended BYU and was caught this way. She was called in and asked to list all the "gay people" she knew about at BYU or they would expel her. She is str8, btw. She told them to shove it and threatened a lawsuit. So guess what they told her? "We're going to tell your parents!"

She ended up graduating with honors the next year and never went back and replies with dirty messages in those "Alumni donation" mailers they always send out.

On a side note, the current mayor of SLC is a liberal and a rebel and a lapsed Mormon. To dispute the reputation that the town rolls up the sidewalks at 9 pm, he recently took a bunch of out-of-town journalists for a night on the town, which included stops at a couple gay bars. He was also grand marshal of the gay pride parade in June. I'm sure it pisses off the local church authorities to no end.

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: utahman4u ]

When I lived in Utah (and I do really love the area), I was constantly harassed and questioned and even photographed coming out of the gay bars (not many). I was also harassed by the BYU campus police while drinking in Provo area bars. I was asked for id, told to take off all hats and jackets and physically searched, and asked to go and open my car so they could search there also.
This occurred at least 3 separate times to myself and my friends. Wanting to sue the "campus police", I found out from my law school professor that BYU campus police were given statewide jurisdiction. They could question and/or arrest anyone they thought may have been a BYU student or knew about any BYU student that was violating their "honor code".

NOW for the sports connection:
As I was questioned one time in Provo about my whereabouts for earlier that evening, I told the police that I had been playing poker and drinking beer with Jim McMahon and other football players and one coach and one staff member. This was actually true and yet Jim was never suspended or thrown out of school for code violations. I know they either did not believe me or knew about these parties and did not follow up on them.