Went to the Raptors first pre-season game (vs. Jazz) last night at the ACC. An exciting, though ultimately disappointing, finish, as the Raps lost by one point in overtime. Coach Mitchell played all the scrubs, including closing out the game with 3 point guards on the court.
Ex-Laker Tierre Brown, fighting for the third point guard spot was impressive, scoring a game-high 24 points and 7 assists in 29 minutes.
The Raptors' number one draft pick Charlie Villanueva looked decent, a poor man's Derrick Coleman (at best).
The Raps second draft pick Joey Graham played very limited minutes and did nothing to stand out.
Free agent rookie Spaniard Jose Calderon distributed (he took only 6 shots) and handled the ball well (3 turnovers... OK, maybe not that well), yet had only 2 assists in 28 minutes.
These are the post-Vince Raptors, and will need to distribute the ball and distribute the scoring, and most importantly DEFEND in order to succeed.
Full Version: 2005 Toronto Raptors
Leave it to the Raptors. In their third pre-season game, the Raps hosted Maccabi Tel Aviv, the team today's Toronto Star article called the "New York Yankees, the Montreal Canadiens and the old Boston Celtics all rolled into one. They're as dominant as any basketball team you'll find, a seamless steamroller that has won 45 of 51 Israeli titles and five European championships."
Alas, said team had not defeated an NBA opponent since 1978 (Washington Bullets)... until today. The Raptors lost 103-101 in front of a solid crowd of 17,281 (reports say there were many Israeli flags and yellow-and-blue Maccabi t-shirts being waved, and Ma-cca-bi chants throughout the arena), including the commish David Stern. Maccabi will play Orlando on Wednesday.
Next up for the Raps: VC and the Nets.
Alas, said team had not defeated an NBA opponent since 1978 (Washington Bullets)... until today. The Raptors lost 103-101 in front of a solid crowd of 17,281 (reports say there were many Israeli flags and yellow-and-blue Maccabi t-shirts being waved, and Ma-cca-bi chants throughout the arena), including the commish David Stern. Maccabi will play Orlando on Wednesday.
Next up for the Raps: VC and the Nets.
How much can be read into this? It is a preseason game, so I'm not expecting the Raptors to be playing their hearts out. BUT...I can't help but think that a bunch of overpaid NBA players just aren't as hungry to win as they once were. Or maybe the Israeli team was just marginally better.
I don't really follow the Raptors (although I might start if my beloved Knicks keep disappointing). For a second there, I had high hopes for Vince Carter.
I don't really follow the Raptors (although I might start if my beloved Knicks keep disappointing). For a second there, I had high hopes for Vince Carter.
Despite losing their first three pre-season games, the Raptors have rebounded with two straight wins (overtime vs. Nets, and Celtics). Number one pick Charlie Villanueva continues to lead the team in points and rebounds (17.3, 5.3). The Raps second pick Joey Graham had a solid 20 points in the Celtics game on 9-14 shooting.
Raptors lose season opener at home to the Wizards 99-96 after going into a fourth quarter slump (14 points). Not a bad loss, with decent performance from new acquistions (Charlie V., Joey Graham, Mike James and Jose Calderon). Nothing to be ashamed of. Antawn Jamison and Gilbert Arenas were unstoppable for the Wiz. Next up: NJ Nets (who lost their home opener to the Bucks) and some guy named Vince Carter.
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Think I saw new (cute) Spanish Raptor Jose Calderon last night at the Indigo bookstore on Bloor St.
[ November 04, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]
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Think I saw new (cute) Spanish Raptor Jose Calderon last night at the Indigo bookstore on Bloor St.
[ November 04, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]
Raptors are in the race... the race to see who will be the last win-less team in the NBA. The Raps, Knicks and Hawks are all at 0-5. The Hawks play Memphis tonight, the Knicks play Sacramento on Sunday, and the Raptors play the 1-4 Sonics on Sunday.
On the plus side: Jose Calderon was ranked 4th in the NBA rookie power rankings after week 1. He's presently 5th in rookie scoring (8.6ppg), and first in rookie assists (6.2apg).
On the plus side: Jose Calderon was ranked 4th in the NBA rookie power rankings after week 1. He's presently 5th in rookie scoring (8.6ppg), and first in rookie assists (6.2apg).
On the NBA.com rookie power rankings Jose Calderon mysteriously dropped from #4 to #5 despite leading all rookies in assists (7.2apg). Charlie Villanueva moved up from unranked to #6.
On SI's rookie power rankings, Jose Calderon moves up from #5 to #3, and Charlie Villanueva moves down(?) from #6 to #7.
[ November 15, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]
On SI's rookie power rankings, Jose Calderon moves up from #5 to #3, and Charlie Villanueva moves down(?) from #6 to #7.
[ November 15, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]
I caught part of the Sonics game on TV last weekend. Calderon seems to distribute the ball well, and does not turn the ball over too often. He's not flashy, but solid. I hope the Raptors have the patience to build around the trio of rookies...
The Raptors spotted the Sixers a 19 point first quarter lead... and there's not much they could do from there. Same old story: they put themselves in a huge hole, make a comeback surge (outscoring the Sixers 45-34 in the second and third quarters), yet ultimately fail. The Raps play the same Sixers at home tomorrow night. I may have to go to that game and be the 6th man. 
On the postive side: another stellar performance by Charlie V.: 27 points on 12-17 shooting (3-3 from 3) and 13 rebounds. This follows a 26 point game in the overtime loss to Seattle.
This same Charlie V. was met with derision by Stephen A. Smith and the ESPN team when the Raptors selected him 7th overall in the '05 draft. Take that!
On the postive side: another stellar performance by Charlie V.: 27 points on 12-17 shooting (3-3 from 3) and 13 rebounds. This follows a 26 point game in the overtime loss to Seattle.
This same Charlie V. was met with derision by Stephen A. Smith and the ESPN team when the Raptors selected him 7th overall in the '05 draft. Take that!
The Raptors outscored the Sixers in the second, third and fourth quarters... and still lost, as they again spotted Philadelphia to a 40-28 first quarter lead, and watched as AI light them up for 42 points (including 19 in the first quarter alone). On the plus side: career-high 38 big points and 9 assists for Mike James. (0-8)
Oh, woe! frown
Oh, woe! frown
We have two A.I.'s -- Allen Iverson and Andre Iguodala. The latter had career-highs of 26 points and 6 three-pointers, leading to the back page Phila. Daily News headline: A.I., A.I., OH!
Interesting that the two teams played to an announced attendance of 16,490 in Toronto, but only 12,211 in Philadelphia the night before.
Was this you, canmark?
Interesting that the two teams played to an announced attendance of 16,490 in Toronto, but only 12,211 in Philadelphia the night before.
Was this you, canmark?
QUOTE
A fan was escorted from the arena after holding up a sign that read 'Raptor Killer' with a picture of Toronto general manager Rob Babcock.
No, that was not me but I did see that 'fan' being kicked out. He was sitting about 15 rows up behind one of the baskets (I was in the uppper level--the Adrenaline bar seats). It's ironic because this is the first time that Rob Babcock's moves have actually looked good:
- although mocked on draft day, his #1 pick (7th overall) Charlie Villanueva is looking like a solid player--and now second among rookies in scoring
- Jose Calderon, his off-season signing from Spain, is first in rookie assists
- he traded away problem child Rafer Alston (now 7.1ppg, 4.1apg with the Houston Rockets) for Mike James (now 18ppg, 4.1apg) with the Raps
- Joey Graham, his second draft pick, is 11th in rookie scoring and has shown great athleticism
So, while their record is abysmal, there is room for hope: 3 solid rookies, solid performances by Mike James and Chris Bosh. Once he finds a centre and moves Jalen Rose's crippling contract, I think things will be looking good.
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Found a pic of the offending sign:
[ November 18, 2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: canmark ]
- although mocked on draft day, his #1 pick (7th overall) Charlie Villanueva is looking like a solid player--and now second among rookies in scoring
- Jose Calderon, his off-season signing from Spain, is first in rookie assists
- he traded away problem child Rafer Alston (now 7.1ppg, 4.1apg with the Houston Rockets) for Mike James (now 18ppg, 4.1apg) with the Raps
- Joey Graham, his second draft pick, is 11th in rookie scoring and has shown great athleticism
So, while their record is abysmal, there is room for hope: 3 solid rookies, solid performances by Mike James and Chris Bosh. Once he finds a centre and moves Jalen Rose's crippling contract, I think things will be looking good.
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Found a pic of the offending sign:
[ November 18, 2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: canmark ]
The Raptors have made an official statement re: the fan ejection:
QUOTE
At Wednesday's Raptors game against the Philadelphia 76ers an incident took place where two fans were escorted from Air Canada Centre. Some media reports allege these two were ejected because they were displaying a sign that was critical of our general manger.
That was not the case. Had they been ejected because of their sign, their removal would have occurred in the first minute rather than in the 46th minute of the game.
The NBA has a Code of Conduct in place in all 30 arenas. These two gentleman were approached twice by NBA security personnel and informed that their conduct was interfering with the rights of other fans to enjoy the game. The second time they were warned for their misbehaviour, they were presented with a \"Yellow Card\" as stipulated by the NBA's code of Conduct.
Security personnel continued to observe the pair and upon receiving further complaints from fans about their behaviour, escorted them from the arena with two minutes remaining in the game.
These individuals were in clear violation of the following rules:
. Guests will enjoy the basketball experience free from disruptive behavior, including foul or abusive language or obscene gestures.
. Guests will sit only in their ticketed seats and show their tickets when requested.
People have the right say and express their point of view so long as it does not disrupt the fans around them. Security cameras in the building captured the entire incident and confirmed our belief at the time that NBA security acted professionally and appropriately.
Fan are always encouraged to express their point of view. However, they are reminded that in doing so the game experience must remain an enjoyable one for all.
That was not the case. Had they been ejected because of their sign, their removal would have occurred in the first minute rather than in the 46th minute of the game.
The NBA has a Code of Conduct in place in all 30 arenas. These two gentleman were approached twice by NBA security personnel and informed that their conduct was interfering with the rights of other fans to enjoy the game. The second time they were warned for their misbehaviour, they were presented with a \"Yellow Card\" as stipulated by the NBA's code of Conduct.
Security personnel continued to observe the pair and upon receiving further complaints from fans about their behaviour, escorted them from the arena with two minutes remaining in the game.
These individuals were in clear violation of the following rules:
. Guests will enjoy the basketball experience free from disruptive behavior, including foul or abusive language or obscene gestures.
. Guests will sit only in their ticketed seats and show their tickets when requested.
People have the right say and express their point of view so long as it does not disrupt the fans around them. Security cameras in the building captured the entire incident and confirmed our belief at the time that NBA security acted professionally and appropriately.
Fan are always encouraged to express their point of view. However, they are reminded that in doing so the game experience must remain an enjoyable one for all.
Raptors win!! Raptors win!!! eek!
The Raptors start the game spotting Miami a 10-1 lead, but pull away in the 4th quarter, winning 107-94. Yay!!!!
The Raptors start the game spotting Miami a 10-1 lead, but pull away in the 4th quarter, winning 107-94. Yay!!!!
Your long national nightmare is over! wink
What a weekend. TRhe Pistons lose their first game and the Raptors win their first game. The two sort of balance each other out. Wouldn't it be strange if the Raptors win the same number of games as the Pistons lose?
~Adam
~Adam
man, I just hope that this is just a bad stretch for them.....if not, they'll be the latest club to be compared with the 1972-3 Philadelphia 76ers.
Charlie V. is now #3 in the NBA.com rookie power rankings. Jose Calderon drops to #9, although he still leads all rookies in assists.
Chris Bosh is tied for first in the league with 8 double-doubles (Tim Duncan, Shawn Marion, Marcus Camby).
Chris Bosh is tied for first in the league with 8 double-doubles (Tim Duncan, Shawn Marion, Marcus Camby).
The Raptors have reportedly offered former Purdue coach Gene Keady an assistant coaching/consultant job. Keady had coached the Boilermakers for 25 years to a 512-270 record. He plans to decide by early December. He sat behind the Raptors coaches for their victory over the Heat. Given the youth and inexperience on the team (3 rookies, Bosh only 21 years old), a veteran winning coach may be the help they need.
Gene Keady was a tough as nails coach with Purdue. I have always respected him (despite the bad suits ). I thought he was retired for good. But if this is what Keady would want to do, I know he would only be an asset to the Raptors.
). I thought he was retired for good. But if this is what Keady would want to do, I know he would only be an asset to the Raptors.
QUOTE
Cattledog:
Gene Keady was a tough as nails coach with Purdue. I have always respected him (despite the bad suits :D ). I thought he was retired for good. But if this is what Keady would want to do, I know he would only be an asset to the Raptors.
Like you, I always respected Keady except for the suits.....and hair. However, I wonder how he would adjust to being an assistant coach after all those years of being the head dog and wonder if someone of that age can relate to young, professional players. The pro player has a entirely different type of relationship with a coach than does a college player.Gene Keady was a tough as nails coach with Purdue. I have always respected him (despite the bad suits :D ). I thought he was retired for good. But if this is what Keady would want to do, I know he would only be an asset to the Raptors.
~Adam
Set your VCR, folks! They're billing it as the "worst game ever," tonight's Toronto Raptor-Atlanta Hawks game from ATL. The combined winning percentage of the two teams (1-15 Raps, 2-12 Hawks) is .100, the lowest in league history (minimum 30 games).
Wow. Someone HAS to win. It might take a couple of days for it to end, though. wink
Raptors win! Raptors win!!
Second win of the season. Yay! Yay!!
Despite leading for most of the game (as much as 10-12 points in the fourth quarter, it seemed), Atlanta managed to tie in the final minutes. Final score: 102-101. Can't get any closer than that. Raptors had 6 players in double-digit scoring. Raps, with a 2-15 record, are now only 6 games out of first place in the Atlantic division. eek!
Next, uh... victim, to the Raptors juggernaut: J.Kidd and the Nets.
Second win of the season. Yay! Yay!!
Despite leading for most of the game (as much as 10-12 points in the fourth quarter, it seemed), Atlanta managed to tie in the final minutes. Final score: 102-101. Can't get any closer than that. Raptors had 6 players in double-digit scoring. Raps, with a 2-15 record, are now only 6 games out of first place in the Atlantic division. eek!
Next, uh... victim, to the Raptors juggernaut: J.Kidd and the Nets.
Raptors win! Raptors win!! Raptors win!!!
Third win of the season. Second win in a row. 3-15 Raps now only 5 games out of first place in the Atlantic division (led by 8-10 Sixers).
Next up... the Wiz.
Third win of the season. Second win in a row. 3-15 Raps now only 5 games out of first place in the Atlantic division (led by 8-10 Sixers).
Next up... the Wiz.
QUOTE
canmark:
Next up... the Wiz.
Ease on down the road. wink
Next up... the Wiz.
In the "which will be greater: number of Raptors' wins or Pistons' losses" sweepstakes, the Raptors now lead, 3-2. But it's early yet. wink
~Adam
~Adam
An interview with the Raptor rookies (Jose Calderon, Charlie Villanueva and Joey Graham) on NBA.com.
Much to my dismay I learned that Jose Calderon (that sexy Spaniard... yes, you are JC!) has a wife. :mad:
Much to my dismay I learned that Jose Calderon (that sexy Spaniard... yes, you are JC!) has a wife. :mad:
Former Purdue head coach Gene Keady will join the Raptors bench, and is scheduled to be on hand for tonight's game in Charlotte.
Raptors win! Raptors win!! Raptors win!!! Raptors win!!!!
Look out NBA... the Raptors have won 3 of their last 5 games eek! ... and 4 overall.
Look out NBA... the Raptors have won 3 of their last 5 games eek! ... and 4 overall.
Oh no!!! The Sixers 9-win season may remain the undisputed worst if the Raptors continue their current winning ways (and the competition between number of Raptors' wins versus number of Pistons' losses is now at 4-2.) Maybe I should pin my hopes on the Hawks, a woeful 3-16, even though they did manage to defeat the Spurs (yes, those Spurs!)
~Adam
~Adam
I'm not sure anyone will ever take away the 9-73 Sixers' "accomplishment." With so many teams, there's too much inconsistency and mediocrity to allow for one team to do that poorly, unless they just quit and let other teams just run over them night after night.
I don't know why you Knicks fans are complaining about... the Raptors now have the worst record in the NBA (4-20) and have only won 1 game at home!
Chris Bosh is currently languishing in 9th among East forwards, despite All Star numbers: 22.4 ppg (13th in NBA), 9.5 rpg (14th in NBA), 2.5 apg, 1 bpg.
Chris Bosh is currently languishing in 9th among East forwards, despite All Star numbers: 22.4 ppg (13th in NBA), 9.5 rpg (14th in NBA), 2.5 apg, 1 bpg.
Well, the Raptors are still ahead in the vitally interesting competition: will they have more wins than the Pistons have losses. The Raptors have four wins and the Pistons have three losses. Can you feel the suspense building?
~Adam
competition: will they have more wins than the Pistons have losses. The Raptors have four wins and the Pistons have three losses. Can you feel the suspense building? ~Adam
QUOTE
canmark:
Chris Bosh is currently languishing in 9th among East forwards, despite All Star numbers: 22.4 ppg (13th in NBA), 9.5 rpg (14th in NBA), 2.5 apg, 1 bpg.
And Elton Brand is in 7th, despite close to MVP numbers. Sadly, fans vote on reputation, not performance.
Chris Bosh is currently languishing in 9th among East forwards, despite All Star numbers: 22.4 ppg (13th in NBA), 9.5 rpg (14th in NBA), 2.5 apg, 1 bpg.
Raptors win! Raptors win!! Raptors win!!! Raptors win!!!! Raptors win!!!!!
Despite playing without Jose Calderon or Charlie V., the Raptors pull out a 92-90 win over the inconsistant Magic in Orlando. Yay!
Despite playing without Jose Calderon or Charlie V., the Raptors pull out a 92-90 win over the inconsistant Magic in Orlando. Yay!
Hey, I like this song: Raptors win! Raptors win!! Raptors win!!! Raptors win!!!! Raptors win!!!!! Raptors win!!!!!!
Six--count 'em--six big wins, following tonight's victory over a listless Houston Rockets. Raps still have the worst winning percentage in the NBA, but they are moving on up!
Six--count 'em--six big wins, following tonight's victory over a listless Houston Rockets. Raps still have the worst winning percentage in the NBA, but they are moving on up!
Nice win. I have a feeling Jeff Van Gundy wishes he were with his brother right about now.
I got NBA League Pass for the first time this year. I must be a glutton for punishment because I keep catching myself watching Raptor and Hawk games. I dunno why. I can see why Mitchell's goin nuts. Some days the Raptors don't show up. Other times they seem pretty darn competitve.
Bosh is a monster. Wrap him up with a lifetime contract right now!
I got NBA League Pass for the first time this year. I must be a glutton for punishment because I keep catching myself watching Raptor and Hawk games. I dunno why. I can see why Mitchell's goin nuts. Some days the Raptors don't show up. Other times they seem pretty darn competitve.
Bosh is a monster. Wrap him up with a lifetime contract right now!
The Raps won their seventh game of the season last night (only their second home win), and Morris Peterson played his 418th game in a Raptors uniform, surpassing Alvin Willians for number one in team history. MoPete also has the longest consecutive games played streak in the NBA at 307 games. The Raps are a respectable 6-7 in December, with Friday's game vs. the Pacers to round out 2005.
No, it was not the Raptors coughing up a lead and folding down the stretch, but the other team. The Raps victory over the Pacers means a .500 record for December (7-7). Of course, they only have 8 wins overall (to 22 losses 
), but they are now percentage points above the Knicks and no longer last in the woeful Atlantic division.
Much trade rumour circulation involving the aforementioned Knicks. Raps would like to ship Jalen Rose to the Knicks for Penny Hardaway's expiring contract. Knicks supposedly want a first round draft pick in the deal.
), but they are now percentage points above the Knicks and no longer last in the woeful Atlantic division.Much trade rumour circulation involving the aforementioned Knicks. Raps would like to ship Jalen Rose to the Knicks for Penny Hardaway's expiring contract. Knicks supposedly want a first round draft pick in the deal.
The Raptors start 2006 on a winning note, defeating the woeful Hawks in front of a sparce (10,048) crowd in Atlanta. Raps now 9-22, but 7-10 on the road (dismal 2-12 on their home court).
Look out world. The Raptors win their fourth game in a row in a 121-97 romp over the Orlando Magic at home. Raps now 10-22... and movin on up.
Are you going to post for each win they get? How come you don't post when they lose? You can say something like "Great effort guys. Go get 'em next time". It sounds like you only care about them when they win. When they lose they are not even worth a post from you?
Let's see you post for each and every game buddy.
Let's see you post for each and every game buddy.
The Raptors dismantled the Rockets in the second half to win convincingly, and now will have a 5-game win streak when they host the NJ Nets and their 9-game win streak.
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A devastating 105-104 loss to the Nets on a deep 3 by Vince Carter, who had 24 fourth quarter points and 42 for the game. The Raps looked like they had the game in hand in the final minutes, but treys by Kidd, Carter and Carter again sealed the deal. Oy! frown
[ January 08, 2006, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]
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A devastating 105-104 loss to the Nets on a deep 3 by Vince Carter, who had 24 fourth quarter points and 42 for the game. The Raps looked like they had the game in hand in the final minutes, but treys by Kidd, Carter and Carter again sealed the deal. Oy! frown
[ January 08, 2006, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]
Ray Allen is back from his 3 game suspension tonight, to face the Raptors, but God the Sonics have been looking dismal, besides for better defense since their coaching change.
Chris Bosh set a team record by going 17-17 from the free throw line in the 121-113 shootout victory over the Sonics.
Raptors GM Rob Babcock has been fired. Senior team advisor Wayne Embry, a former Hall of Fame player and front office executive with Milwaukee and Cleveland, has been named Interim GM. With the revolving door that is the Raptors GM/head coach situation, this comes as no surprise. When will this team find somebody that sticks?
The guy with the 'Raptor Killer' sign from earlier this year must be thrilled! wink
More Raptor housecleaning.
QUOTE
The Toronto Raptors announced today that Pete Babcock, director of NBA player personnel, and Scott Howard, director of international player personnel, have been relieved of their duties effective immediately.
Meanwhile, the consensus among sportswriters in Toronto (with which I concur) seems to be that the Raptors woes can be traced back to MLSE management, in particular president Richard Peddie. He was the guy who's been hiring unproven and inexperienced GMs and head coaches. And lets face it, the Leafs organization hasn't been doing anything to brag about in decades. Is it a wonder that those people who should know something about hockey, but seemingly know little about basketball, fail repeatedly.
The Raptors press release trumpets the $10 million cap relief the team will get this summer prior to mentioning the principles in the trade: Jalen Rose and Denver's first-round draft pick to the Knicks for Antonio Davis (and his expiring contract).
Rose had played well in the past month (incl. a 31-point performance vs. the Knicks on Jan. 15th) and maximized his value. The Raptors were only too happy to unload his massive contract (he's making something like $17 mil. a year) which still has one more year to go.
In Davis, the Raps re-acquire a former team leader and star (acquired in a draft-day trade with the Pacers for Jonathan Bender), who later fell out of favor and was shipped off to the Bulls in a deal that included... Jalen Rose. So it all comes full circle.
Davis was not present at last night's Knicks-Raptors game. Some question whether he'll report. Regardless, this trade was all about the cap space.
Earlier in the week the Raps sent little-used centre Aaron Williams to the Hornets for second round draft picks, another money and cap-saving measure.
The Raptors are showing clear signs that they will be able to sign, re-sign, and re-build the team in the off-season, armed with cap space and (presumably) a new GM.
[ February 04, 2006, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: canmark ]
Rose had played well in the past month (incl. a 31-point performance vs. the Knicks on Jan. 15th) and maximized his value. The Raptors were only too happy to unload his massive contract (he's making something like $17 mil. a year) which still has one more year to go.
In Davis, the Raps re-acquire a former team leader and star (acquired in a draft-day trade with the Pacers for Jonathan Bender), who later fell out of favor and was shipped off to the Bulls in a deal that included... Jalen Rose. So it all comes full circle.
Davis was not present at last night's Knicks-Raptors game. Some question whether he'll report. Regardless, this trade was all about the cap space.
Earlier in the week the Raps sent little-used centre Aaron Williams to the Hornets for second round draft picks, another money and cap-saving measure.
The Raptors are showing clear signs that they will be able to sign, re-sign, and re-build the team in the off-season, armed with cap space and (presumably) a new GM.
[ February 04, 2006, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: canmark ]
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