I liked the idea when Charles Barkley came out for gay marriage. I mean he's the essence of macho???
Will this give gay NBA brothers the ok to come out?
Isiah and Magic tried to get it going with their kiss before the game but then Magic got sick and that sent it back to the closet.
What's your opinion?

Sterling

Sterling,
I'm afraid that this is only a political move and like so many politicians,I think Charles is just playing us.

It will take a lot more than Charles Barkley endorsing gay marriage to get NBA players (or any other pro athletes) to come out. One of the very few scenarios that I can envision in the foreseeable future would be a kid who was out in high school entering the league. Even that, however, would be a stretch. Another, slimmer, possibility would be a player who is compromised and thus forced out. If the reception were largely positive and the outted player’s career were not damaged, then another player might come out, especially if his career were winding down.

Regarding Isiah and Magic, neither of them were ever consciously making some kind of gay liberation statement. They just got too caught up in themselves to maintain appearances....

If you've been following the McGreevy thread then you might think the possibility of a positive reception for someone forced out of the closet is pretty slim.

But then we have different standards for athletes and politicians, so who knows.

My guess is that most closeted guys are running for a deeper corner in the current environment.

The perception of the person means a lot too. Roy Simmons and Esera Tuaolo got quite different receptions because of their different images IMO.

Neither has become a cause celebre. But I don't see anyone following them out of the closet either.

I expect within the next decade things may change.

What about Christian Laettner? Didn't he come out one time when he was at Duke? Christian and his former "roommate" are trying to buy the Memphis Grizzlies, I think. Holds the distinction of being one of only a handful of guys who’s had to address rumors about his sexual orientation in a Sports Illustrated story. Is this the real (and subtle) reason he gets under Joe Fan’s skin? In fact, there was a rumor that the entire Duke men's basketball team of the early nineties--led by Christian Laettner and Brian Davis--were gay, forcing Billy McCaffrey to transfer to Vanderbilt because he wouldn't, um, play ball.

No.



Please tell me you didn't believe such a ridiculous story.

Who is Christian Laettner?
Duke has a basketball team?

For me, the choices for pro atheletes are simple. Come out and risk losing millions of dollars and the opportunity to be "set for life", or, stay in the closet, earn as much money as possible, and be financially "set for life". All this talk of active pro atheletes coming out of the closet is idealistic and silly, at best. They have too much to lose. Out and poor, or, in and rich. That's what it amounts to. My advice to any gay pro athelete is to stay in the closet if already there, and don't come out until he or she has earned as much money as possible. And to any prospective pro athelete thinking of coming out, I would suggest that they return to the closet and dig themselves as deep a hole as humanly possible (in order to leave open the possibility of earning the big bucks in the pros). As gay people, we can encourage and mentor athletes who are out and have trouble adjusting to their new "out" lifestyle, but we don't have enough intimate knowledge about other gay people and/or their personalities and/or mental fortitude and/or their financial situations to encourage any pro-caliber athlete to come out. In addition, it's none of our friggin business. Gay, straight, bi, who cares? People are naturally curious about one another, I undertand that, but I have never understood why gays who are "out" seem to need that from other gays, and speak of them as if they were second class citizens or worse, frauds. Most pro gay athletes that are in the closet have legitimate reason$ for being there. People have the right to lead their lives in any way they choose. If we as gay people expect tolerance and understanding from others, we should extend the same courtesy to the heterosexual community as well, and especially to other gay men and women who live their lives in the closet.

Agreed. Not that there's anything wrong with advocating changes in society to make it comfortable for anyone who wants to to be open about what they are.

Personally I think we will see more openness when there is an internal change in attitudes of closeted gays toward themselves, not the reverse.

Thanks, Sportinlife. I expected to get toasted, seeing as how the trendy thinking nowaday is that pro athletes should "exit" the closet.

But how come virtually none of these guys comes out AFTER their careers are over and they've made the big bucks? Nothing can harm them then. I think because they've been closeted for so long they begin to believe the crap people say about gay people and feel they are "different" than then others.

Until I recently rented the first DVD of the Logo sitcom Noah's Arc I had totally forgotten that I'd read somewhere that the Laker's John Salley makes a cameo in the episode Don't Make Me Over as the owner of a straight sports bar.

The characters are incredibly stereotyped - they pattern themselves after The Golden Girls - and the acting is at times painful to watch. But I'm glad the long-neglected people and issues it takes on are getting an airing.

I think attitudes within the game are becoming increasingly progressive. But it is extremely optimistic to expect a sport dominated by African-Americans to take on the additional burden of first openly gay big pro male athlete. It could be commercial suicide, for both the league and the individual.

However if the political climate shifts in this country, all bets are off. It could happen.

I know I'm in the minority but I just think we should repsect any decision gay pro athletes make regarding this issue. Whether they are "fake", "holier-than thou" or too scared and mentally fragile to deal with the media attention sure to follow, it's their decision to make; and none of our business. If they don't want to come out, we should respect their decision to stay in the closet. What does it matter to the rest of us if they come out or not? If I were a pro athlete, I wouldn't come out, before, during, or after my pro career. Too much to lose. Too much attention. Too much hassel. Some people like to keep their private lives private, and I see nothing wrong with it. It is politicially correct to support personal freedom, so why can't we accept that some people prefer to keep a low profile. Some of us are emotionally secure enough to drive the main drag, but others prefer the side roads. But in my mind at least, it doesn't matter which path you choose because in this case (even if it is a platitude, it applies here), the journey really IS the destination.

I agree with that. The only time I have a problem with people not coming out is the anti-gay politician (e.g., the wonderful Mr. Foley), who uses a position obtained through deceit to oppress other gays and lesbians.

To some extent anyone in the closet is avoiding the burden of promoting gay rights as well. Not that that is a reason that they should come out. But it puts it in perspective.

They are avoiding a hassle that openly gay people will bear alone until the climate changes for all. I agree that as long as they are not disparaging the trailblazers already out, they should not be outed.

But generally I disagree with outing in any circumstance short of legal necessity.

Sportinlife: You can't expect every gay person to take up the cause and become spokespeople for the gay community any more than you expect every disbaled person, veteran, cancer victim, actor, religious believer, politician, or anti-war advocate to serve as spokespeople and activists for their cause. Not everyone has the temperament, likeability, media savvy, or intelligence to do that. So, I don't agree with your notion that every closeted gay person is somehow "shirking their responsibility" to the rest of the gay community. Those who can, do. Those who can't, follow.

Larry: Who is "Mr. Foley"? and what's he done? Can you provide a link?

Most of the individuals you describe have a choice about whether they reveal their difference. Some disabled people or cancer victims do not. Those people carry the "burden" of representing their group regardless of what they wish. The same is true for those of us who are not the same skin color as the majority of people in this nation.

That is why I often draw an anology between Jews and gays in the rights movements. Gays, like those in the Republican party just to use a current example, can exist as who they are under the radar if they wish. But there can be a price to pay for such silence or self-loathing.

No there is no requirement that they speak out. But there is a price to be paid in the long run by the individual and the group.

That said, I repeat that I am against "outing". Only when it becomes a matter of one individual's silence impinging upon the welfare of another to the extent that it becomes legally necessary to reveal a person's sexual orientation would I think that it would be justified. I look forward however to the day when such a crisis point is unnecessary for anyone to be open about who they are. I hope that day will arrive in the USA.

Who wants to get all of those love letters from gay fans?
I always find it interesting that when people do come out
it's never good enough based on how they look usually.

It's almost like people want not only a hot athlete to come
out but a hot athlete who is single and may possibly want
a relationship and sweep them off their feet. Speaking of
which I met THE HOTTEST GUY yesterday at a coffee shop.

I know that last part was random but I don't have many
gay friends so you guys will have to suffice for now.

But back on topic, I think also in terms of upbringing and
culture, some people are just private people. I am out but
I wasn't raised to be someone out front or whatever because
being black always meant that people looked at you and put
you in the spotlight usually in a negative way. I think also
that there are out NBA players, Barkley has said in the past
he knows gay players. And in their way I am sure they are
making a difference just like we do on our jobs.

Republican Congressman Mark Foley of Florida, who's at the center of a Republican Congressional sex scandal involving underage male pages. It's all over the papers.

Look, there's gay rights and gay equality. People in the closet benefit from the activism of those who're out. We wouldn't have had Lawrence v. Texas, for example, if the two men charged and a gay activist legal organization had decided to wait for the court's and society's beneficence. As a result of that ruling, same-sexual activity is legal in ALL 50 STATES and US territories, ensuring equality under the law. Many people in this country still face a lack of civil protections against anti-gay discrimination. I don't expect most--or even a few--multimillionaire professional athletes to do anything about this, though a few in a few sports (Louganis, Navratilova, etc.) have, but some of the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL players also may benefit or may have benefited from the increased social openness and political protections that have resulted from gay rights activism (because no one ever gave gay people anything they didn't have to agitate and fight for), so alongside their straight compatriots who have supported gay rights, it would be great (ironic sigh) if even a HANDFUL of them had the courage to come out and show the world that they are gay and also support equality for gay people and for everyone.

Well... on the one hand, I agree. People should be entitled to a private life. However, sports stars and celebrities don't really get one like everyone else in this society. Let me ask... when is the last time a straight athlete was "in the closet," so to speak about their dating life? Usually they are bragging about their sex life and who they are dating, or it's being plastered in the papers. I don't see anyone jumping up and telling them to shut up, telling them it's none of our business who Mr. Quarterback was seen out on the town with. Hell, the guys use the columns sometimes for the publicity.



There's a column in one of the local free rag sheets that is about nothing but the sexy women pro athletes are dating/hooked up with, etc. I don't see a big outcry to protect their private lives. It's only when the subject is/may be gay, that argument is brought out.



As far as "out" gay people wanting to see celebrities/athletes out (or anyone gay, for that matter) it's visibility. It's easier to discriminate when your friends or relatives who are gay don't acknowledge it. Finding out they are gay can force many (not all) people to reexamine their attitudes. The same goes for coworkers, business leaders, politicians, etc. It shows that we are often normal, sometimes extraordinary people, and not just those "freaks" who dress in women's clothes, or solicit sex in a public restroom, or do unthinkable things in bed. Often people are shocked to find out they know a gay person, even in today's world. They are now your neighbor, friend, relative--not some "freak" who lives in another town. As far as athletes are concerned... it's legitimacy. We can be as masculine, or as tough as, a straight guy. Athletes are put on a pedestal, for better or worse. For someone who is a pro athlete, to admit being gay, paints a WHOLE other picture in people's minds.



They also want to see role models, especially young people. Ask any black, asian, hispanic person who grew up in the United States in the 60's, 70's, 80's... how much did they long to see someone who looked like them in films and in TV? How many of them still do today? Many gay people still support bad gay movies, just because they present an image of us, especially in small towns and cities. Don't discount the power of popular culture in this country, and athletes are a big part of pop culture.



As Fantomas said, many gay people look at the work and visibility they have done to improve things in society for gay people, and then see closeted athletes rake in the big bucks while pretending to be straight (i.e. "normal"), and perpetuating the myth that gay people can't be jocks too, that there is something wrong with being gay.



As Thomas said, not everyone is equipped to handle the spotlight that would most likely follow a gay athlete in a MAJOR team sport coming out, and end up being the "spokesman" for gay athletes. To some degree, it takes a Jackie Robinson type who can maintain their composure, put up with the slurs, and still put up great numbers on the field. The question is, where is our "Jackie Robinson" who will open up the doors, and make it easier for those who follow? The difference was that Jackie couldn't hide the fact that he was black. A gay athlete can (at what cost is the subject of another debate, but it happens all the time) hide this aspect of themselves. If a very light skinned athlete had to pass as white to play and be adored by fans, we would be up in arms over that these days. If a Jewish athlete had to pretend to be Christian, we would be upset. But a gay athlete passing as straight, is just "protecting their privacy." Bullshit. Keeping who you're dating low key is having a private life; not acknowleding that you are gay (or worse, going out of your way to pretend to be straight) is something else altogether.



If gay people were accepted, if they weren't discriminated against by some people, if they were free to be whatever they wanted without fear of losing their big paychecks, then they wouldn't be in the closet. It's that simple. Some might be more low key about their life, but they wouldn't pretend to be something they are not. The fact that they have to do that really pisses some people off... and the irony is that until a few major athletes do come out, the situation isn't going to change. Society is making progress, and in my opinion is probably ahead of where the gay athletes and their handlers (agents) think they are, but are we supposed to wait until everyone is all accepting before a gay athlete acknowledges their sexuality? If one doesn't come out, will we ever get there? Someone has to make the first step(s).



I understand why gay athletes don't come out, and at the same time I abhor the situation. And not just the situation for gay athletes, but for any gay person who can't come out. Most of us have been in that situation at some point in our lives. It's not a pleasant place to be.



Whew... don't know what got me started on that!

Actually, I think it's because many of these guys still live off of their days as a player to some degree. Many of them didn't garner other skills in college (if they went, depends on the sport), and are left ill equipped once their playing days are over. The smart ones invested their money properly, but how many of them spent it all, and have little to show once the paychecks stop? Also, many go into broadcasting, many still do endorsements, many have opened bars/restaurants/car dealerships/insurance sales companies, etc. using their name/fame as a draw. Some rely on the autograph circuit for funds.



You also have the aspect whereby they are used to being adored by fans, and having attention lavished on them. The best tables at restaurants, etc. Many are afraid that will go away. Since high school (or earlier) they've been the BMOC, the one everyone looked up to, wanted to be, or wanted to f**k (LOL). So they've spend a good part of their life being made out to be a god... and now you want them to (potentially) give all of that up? Of course, they don't look at how miserable life in the closet is, but they also have been exposed to the American dream of fame, adolation and $$$. It's hard for them to give that up.



As I said above... I understand it, I don't like it.

There are definitely players in the NBA (and other sports) who are out in the sense that it is common knowledge within league circles that they are gay. Charles Barkley’s comments are illustrative of that fact. It’s not even necessarily a matter of being caught or otherwise found out (although that has certainly happened before). Some players make no effort to hide it. Randy Boyd’s column here on Outsports recounts the story of a Hornets player who brought a male “friend” to a team dinner. That must have lent new meaning to the classic question: Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner?

Quoting my fav Aunty Entity:

"We don't need another hero. We don't need to know the way home."

As I said in another thread, we have to be the leaders we want to see.

You can talk about racial minorities (which is by the way completely
different because I totally pass as straight since I play sports and am
masculine but could never pass as non-black) but even amongst those
groups you have differences. There are many black people who would
be out right conservative if not for racism. There are black people who
prefer punk music to hip hop. I don't think there is community in that
sense so why ask for gay role models from a group of people who may
have nothing in common with you and think you are scum because you
are "poor" or don't have a jet and date actresses like NBA players? Getting
a hard on when looking at a guy is just a function of biology. That's it.

Gay bashing sucks. But the commonality of human suffering does not
make a community despite what the NAACP or some Zionist group says.
If we as gays really believed this then we wouldn't always be so quick to
dismiss "fats and fems" because it was real sized people and transgendered
people who led the Stonewall revolution in the first place. Our ability to be
"normal" or "straight acting" comes directly from the blood of flaming queens
who are still disproportionately targeted for gay bashings and homicides. But
we can only view them as asexual entertainment or people who "hold us back"
and somehow brought on their assaults or murders through their behavior.

I say no way.

Thanks. I found the story. I rarely listen to non-sports news, and, I try to avoid politics at all costs. Sports is easier to understand. Still don't know why people are surprised by what Foley did though. It's done all the time, and lied about all the time. Lying, cover-ups, and sex go together naturally.

PennState: I read your article. You're very pasionate about gay rights. Maybe I should be more active, but that's not me. I'm resonably sure that if I tried to raise social consciousness about gay rights, we'd end up with fewer rather than more, because I'd do or say something politically incorrect. I'm a hopeless free spirit, with too much blue humor in my vocabulary. Your passion about these issues, on the other hand, makes you a perfect fit.

Good luck to your Nitty Lions this season. They could use some.

I'm far from a perfect fit, and I am not an activist by any stretch of the imagination. I've even been guilty of not practicing what I preach from time to time. But I think I understand (to some degree) where all of this comes from, and I wanted to try and see if I could help you understand.

Let me give you one other example, something to think about. To be fair, this is courtesy of Harvey Fierstein, as I saw him pull out this example on TV recently. Let's say a famous action star (oh, say, Tom Cruise), or any pro athlete for that matter, sues a magazine/newspaper/tabloid because it was reported that said person was gay. The basis of the lawsuit is that this was damaging to their image and career. Court awards large judgement to said person whose career/reputation was sullied. This has actually happened. Now, what does that say to people? That being gay is something harmful, wrong, and shameful and detrimental to ones image. Unfortunately, that's what we are up against.

Let's turn that around... let's say an openly gay actor sues a tabloid because it reports he is straight, and claims it hurt his career. He would probably be laughed out of court, and the case dismissed.

Why do actors feel the need to declare they are straight, that they are only playing a gay character? You don't hear them saying that really, I'm not a child molester, or I'm not a rapist, or I'm not a murderer, I just play one in the movies. This is what we are up against.

Obviously, in sports, there are other issues apart from public image. Reaction from teammates and opponents in contact sports, for one. But nothing is really going to change until people's notions are changed, and people's notions won't really be changed until they are forced to confront the reality that there are pro athletes who are gay, they are normal, they can be (but necessarily are) superstars, and there is nothing wrong with that. Until the public and fan base has specific athletes that they can point to as examples, they will continue to believe that this is not the case. That is why some people are really pushing for visibility.

As I said before, who you are dating, what you do in bed, etc. could be considered a "private life." But the fact you are gay doesn't fall under that, in my mind. Unless you want to take it to the other extreme, and say that the fact an athlete is straight is a private matter, and shouldn't be discussed or mentioned. Since I don't see that happening...

Let's face it, we live in a wierd and hypocritical culture.

I have a female colleague at work who says she is straight but who is constantly hit on by another woman who works for the company where we are stationed (ours is a contract company), but doesn't seem to mind it at all. I've eperienced what most would consider suggestive behaviour (nothing offensive or otherwise negative) from a male employee of the company who is very nice but, unlike my colleagues in our contract company, does not know that I am in a long-term relationship.

I have never had a problem with it and thusfar have not brought up my relationship because he may take offense at the suggestion that he was pursuing anything other than a friendship. He was apparently an athlete in high school and played pick-up basketball quite a lot, as I did, in college and since (before knee injuries in both our cases). So there is a perfectly legitimate reason for him to pursue an informal friendly relationship with me. I didn't think it was anything more until I learned that at 40-something he is still unmarried, has never mentioned a girlfriend during our friendly chats and makes a point of seeking me out even when he is supposed to be in our office area to help out with someone else (he services our analytical instruments - no jokes please).

My point I guess is that even in a gay-friendly environment, people will be closeted as long as the society outside that cocoon is gay-negative. It is certainly not limited to athletes. Why should they be any different?

Which proves my point. I could never make that argument since I see nothing wrong in people stating their sexual perference, whatever their vocation. I just don't think about people's sexual preference much. You, on the other hand, see something potentially discriminatory and threatening when straight guys announce their sexual preference (seems harmless to me). You and I see the world from a very different perspective. I never think of people as black or white, gay or straight; just good and bad.

There's nothing wrong with straight guys making it known that they're straight -- but gay guys should be able to mention their orientation as well, and not be chastised/harassed/etc. for doing so.

Wrong. You missed my point entirely. I have no problem with straight guys "announcing" they are straight. My issue is when it can't go both ways... when a straight guy can "announce" he's straight, but a gay guy can't "announce" he's gay in the same way, without fear of repercussions or stigma. My examples were not to illustrate that I found straight men threatening, but how there is a double standard applied.

Straight men and women "announce" their sexuality in small ways, often in passing, without giving it any thought. Pictures of their spouse or bf/gf on their desk, talk around the water cooler about their date last night, comments about the guy/girl in sales they think is hot, etc. There is nothing wrong with this, and they still maintain a "private life." while doing it.

However, many gay men and women have to edit those very same above mentioned discussions to eliminate references to same sex attraction. They don't talk about their date, or they change the gender. Some even invent opposite sex attractions that don't exist. That's what is wrong. Can you imagine if every straight person was forced to eliminate all references to their being straight, no matter how small? They would be tripping all over themselves, because they do it all the time, and don't even think about it. I don't think a gay athlete, or anyone else gay, should feel the need to give us intimate details of their "private life." No more than they are comfortable sharing. However, they should be able to mention that the people they are attracted to are of the same sex, even if it's just in passing, the same as straight people do every day.

OK. I get it. You make a good point, even if somewhat idealistic. But I do "get" the point you're making. And I hope that happens one day too. My bad.

And sometimes in 'not so small ways'. One person at work broadcast her name change due to marriage to some 300 people at work.

Even in her place I don't think I would have bothered. I would rather tell those I know well and let the computer system notify those I do not.

some great posts but i dont see any gays in the NBA coming out anytime soon

with the money issue and all tbe bs they would be subjected too, i dont see it happening in any major sport in the US anytime soon

but who knows we can hope!!
when they do come out they will be a true hero in my book it will not be easy

I hate to ask this. But, did Magic Johnson have a "gay" side? It is none of my business, but I think Magic or some other gay superstar could have been a turning point in acceptance of gay athletes, if he only had the courage to stand up for gay people. Maybe, I am just being ignorant and naive. But, we need some superstar to be brave and take a stand for equality, to make it easier for those of only modest or even less talent.

What a year.

America wakes up to the Iraq disaster. The Repubs are kicked out of control of congress. New Jersey's courts decide that gays must be treated equally before the law.

And now:

The most prominent gay-basher in the NBA: Allen Iverson is departing the team of brotherly love.

To top that one of the most gay-bashed guys in the NFL has taken over from one of the best QB's in the league and actually won a game in this self-described blue collar town.

I can hardly wait to see how this one is gonna end - with a whimper or a bang?

Maybe the first openly gay male major-sport athlete in the USA while active?

We can only dream.

Jay Original makes an interesting point about "role models." I would respond that coming out doesn't require one to be a "role model," though sometimes that does happen.

So far, the only fairly recent pro basketball player that I can think who's spoken openly about same-sexual desire is Dennis Rodman. In part he was craving attention (which he got) and money (which he got), but I often thought to myself, this man, whatever I may feel about the spectacles he creates around himself and his sexuality, is opening up a public space for athletes in his sport who dare to follow. No one has taken him up on the challenge, and I don't doubt that some people looking at Rodman might argue that he is the last person anyone--especially any younger gay/bi/trans person--should model herself or himself after. But the fact remains that by talking about same-sexual desires and interests, by admitting that he goes to gay bars, by dressing up in drag (as cartoonish as it was), and publicly avowing these actions, he helps to create possibilities for people who aren't going to be as wild or go as far.

Certainly there is diversity in any group, and to an extent, the group's solidarity is externally compelled. At the same time, many African Americans, or Muslims, or Filipinos, or people whose first language is Spanish, or whose ancestors survived the Holocaust, to take just a few examples, may be from diverse backgrounds, but they still share many commonalities of experience and may find community in those common experiences, whether imposed from without or identified from within, not that the two are ever fully separable. Many LGBT people DO recognize common experiences, interests, affinities, dreams, and so on. That's one of the reasons that Outsports and sites like it exist. We could all go to a site that did NOT have an LGBT focus, and many of us do, and we'd find, as we have, that our LGBT-focused interests might be ignored, or dismissed, or attacked--but indifference in and of itself could be enough to bring us back here. So SOME LGBT athletes, like Billie Jean King (who was a pioneer for lesbians AND women in general), or Greg Louganis, or Martina Navratilova, or Esera Tuaolo, whatever their personal affinities and quirks, do see the value of community and promoting gay rights and equality, socially and politically, because they realize that their public celebrity can not only play a huge role in garnering funds and jumpstarting activism, but it can also help to convince non-LGBT people of our humanity, at least those who are not so close-minded about other human beings, and that fortunately is the majority of us. They *are* role models and are willing to assume the mantle.

Let me just add, regardless of political affiliation, that I personally have never come across any person who fled a given minoritarian identity who didn't feel some shame about that identity. By that I mean, I have never met a gay person who vehement eschewed being considered gay who didn't feel some inner shame or confusion about being gay. I think this is probably a stronger issue nowadays for gay people than any other group, but it really cuts across racial, ethnic, gender, sexual, religious, etc. lines. I do believe that in the next five years, at least 1-2 of these gay pro major sport athletes we keep hearing about from the likes of Charles Barkley and so on will come out publicly, while there will be some outcry from some sports fans and commentators, the hoopla will die down and they'll not only be accepted but held in high esteem, even if they haven't done a thing (other than coming out and playing their sports) to deserve it.

In terms of the great comment about the pro athletes not having a lot of options because of a lack of education and so on, I agree, but let's keep in mind that many of these folks make anywhere from hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars a year. They are financially set up in ways that the average gay American, let alone the average American, is not. It's a hell of a lot harder to be out in a hostile political and social environment when you're only making $18,000 or $35,000 even $75,000 a year, and yet millions--MILLIONS--of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender people do it every single day. We do it as teachers, paralegals, sales clerks, cable installers, office managers, police people, pipe fitters, architects, programmers, dancers, baristas, students, home aide workers, delivery truck drivers, musicians, assembly line workers, physicians' assistants, trainers, journalists, soldiers, you name it. The pro athletes have the benefit of a financial cushion, and in many cases, were they to come out, they'd become even greater celebrities, as Esera Tuaolo has demonstrated. So while they may not all have the greatest skills or educations, many have far more economic security than the majority of gay American people.

Well getting to the original part of this topic which deals with gay black men in the NBA, I've heard no one discuss the issue of black masculinity and the taboo of homosexuality in the black community. Black men are generally portrayed in society as angry, strong, and slidin their dicks in any girl they can get. Its very different for black gay men then white gay men. It would be easier for a white athlete to come out because the white community in general is more accepting of homosexuality. That is not the case in the black community. So...for a prominent black NBA player to come out he'll have to deal with the backlash from racists and homophobes as well as most of the black community shunning him. So if someone decides to stay in the closet I can't fault them in that. Yes, because of their celebrity they are open season for the media, however they should be allowed to keep some things in their lives private. If I played on a team sport like that I would be inclined to remain in the closet for my own financial reasons. If I played an individual sport like tennis however I think I'd be more inclined to come out.

I agree with an earlier poster who said that the most likely situation will happen when a kid is openly gay in high school and its known before he even comes into the league.

I'm Black, and I respectfully think you're generalizing a bit too much here. MANY Black people would be upset, but quite a few Black people do accept LGBT people, especially Black women--now I'm generalizing! LOL But really, I always hear how homophobic Black people are, and I would counter that it depends on who you're talking about and the person's gender, where you're talking about, and the class backgrounds of the Black people. For example, I have found far more openness around sexuality in general, and homosexuality in particular, among poor and working-class fellow African-Americans I know and have lived around than among middle-class Black folks, or Black folks from the West Indies or some parts of English-speaking Africa. I'm thinking about the out lesbians, transgender people, effeminate gay men, and so on who lived in the projects, and no one gets worked up over them. This is not to say they don't face homophobia and hatred, but at the same time, it's not at the hysterical level that some of the Black preachers and many White conservatives engage in. Nearly all the Black women I know, especially under the age of 50, no matter where they may have started in terms of feelings about homosexuality, would not shun another Black person because he or she were gay. I know there are some, but I feel like people always want to say that Black people are more intolerant of homosexuality. You're right about certain notions of masculinity, and how we are represented in publicly AS WELL AS how we represent ourselves. But at the same time, I think it's more complex than the idea Black people are really homophobic and a Black athlete is going to have a harder time. I mean, have you been around homophobic White people? What is the race of most of the people engaging in anti-gay attacks in this country? Just asking.

Also, the Nets story supposedly involves a Black player. If it turns out to be true and he comes out, it'll be interesting to see how his teammates (who must by now know he's gay) and fans respond. I think the worst reaction will be from the sportswriting media, who are just too Cro-Magnonish for words.

While more tolerant in the black community than say 10 years ago...its still very much a taboo. You have more who will "deal" with it and not lash out but many will still not associate or be very friendly with or want to acknowledge that person. Its as if it will be "ok you're gay but stay in your place" Generalizing??? Hmmm...I don't know. I know everyone wants to think we've come so far in "the struggle" and that the world at large isn't so racist and homophobic and all that but I'm not as optimistic about it. While improvements and strides have been made, many fail to talk about institutional racism that is much more detrimental than the racism and prejudices that come from the Joe Schmo who calls me a nigger or a f****t. It is the policies that are in place that continue to oppress homosexuals and while people's attitudes can change and improve and become more tolerant, if the attitudes of those at the top who tend to be homophobic and tend to make decisions based on public opinion...things are gonna be very difficult. Great points though pa. I definitely hear what you're saying.

Edited to comment: Interesting, they edit fa**ot but I can spell out nigger all day with no problem.

I hear where you're coming from Mdterp. I agree we still have a long way to go. I still do think, though, that there are some Black pro athletes who could come out, not lose their families and friends, and really have a major impact in terms of expanding perceptions of LGBT Black and other people of color. I'm not sure about the alleged Nets player, but there are several NFL players that come immediately to mind.

BTW, doesn't the cute mayor of Newark need a boyfriend? I keep waiting for him to come out, though I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. But the fact that that big strapping attractive man is rarely seen with a girlfriend or ladyfriend sets off all kinds of gaydar bells. If another Net (or Jet or Giant or Devil) is single....

A question: who edited out the f-bomb but not the n-bomb?

Also, on the sidebar, there's an ad for RealJock that includes the f-bomb word.

mdterp01 and fantomas, I think perhaps your subtle and mild disagreement about homophobia in the black community arises from the fact that you are looking at two different sectors within the African-American/Other mixture we are and generalizing to the entire group.

The intelligentsia (as it was once called) has always seen things differently. They advocated the elitist 10% rule in the early 20th century and switched to the more liberal notion of seeking allies in other oppressed communities afterwards. One could have been considered homophobic the other gay-positive as a practical matter.

The less sophisticated blue-collar black community has always been fairly homophobic purely as a derivative copying of the majority culture's homophobia.

That less sophisticated culture has always produced more athletes in every group, not just among Blacks. It is that culture that these athletes have to deal with and which makes it so difficult to be logical about issues such as homosexuality.

Oh my yes...the mayor of Newark does need a boyfriend. The gaydar bells went off for me the first time I saw him in an interview. I was like hmmm..."how you doin?" I didn't even know that he wasn't married and is never seen with a girlfriend but he is one attractive man. As for a single Giant...well...those rumors about Michael Strahan don't seem to go away.

And yeah...f bomb edited out in posts but the RealJock ad has that "fit f**ots phrase. I don't know. Just one of those things that makes ya go hmmm.

But back to your comments about brothas in the NBA. I'm sure there could be some who could come out but again...in a team sport atmosphere with so many African Americans in the game...no one would want to associate with this individual. It would be so hard but certainly commendable for one to come out. Then of course you'd have to deal with the media, the fan taunting. Whoever is the first to do it will certainly pave the way but pay a heavy price emotionally and professionally for simply wanting to live their life honestly. Its sad.

Sportinlife, again, isn't it more complex than this? One of the major exponents of the Talented Tenth credo, W. E. B. DuBois, was on record as being quite homophobic. He even forced an editor of The Crisis to resign because the man was involved in a gay-sex arrest. Yet in his book The Souls of Black Folks, there is a strongly homoerotic chapter that some recent scholars of African-American history and culture have analyzed as pointing to a more ambiguous internal feeling about homosociality. (While an undergraduate at Harvard, DuBois also studied closely with one of the major gay philosophers of the turn of the century period, George Santayana; he describes their private study sessions with some passion, though Santayana never mentions DuBois in his famous memoir Persons and Places). At the same time, another of the major Talented Tenth exponents, Alain Locke, was a closeted gay man, but he was publicly against portrayals of same-sexual desire or anything that wasn't socially respectable. Among the elite writers of the Harlem Renaissance, a number were known to be gay or bisexual (Countee Cullen, Langston Hughes, Claude McKay, Richard Bruce Nugent, Howard Thurman, etc.), yet when Nugent wrote overtly and affirmatively about homosexual desire (Hughes alludes to it or portrays it more broadly, as does Thurman), some of the Harlem Renaissance literati and many cultural leaders denounced this work and many of the HR artists whose work they claimed celebrated social pathology and degeneracy.

I was making that very point that among some "unsophisticated," poor and working-class Black people, especially in more recent years but going back some while in our history, there has been a tacit acceptance of LGBT people in the community. (There was considerable acceptance of same-sexual/same-gender/transgender desire and people in many sub-Saharan African societies, especially before the spread of colonialist ideology, especially the British version.) And this is not only for DL individuals, but out LGBTs who live their lives and play important social roles. I am thinking for example of "aggressives," superbutch Black and Latina lesbians. A few years ago Vibe published a long article on "aggressives," and one of the things that was clear was how integrated they were into the communities they lived in. It didn't argue that they faced no homophobia, but it did show repeatedly how their families and people living around the way took it for granted that there ARE lesbians, butch lesbians, gay people, etc., and there was less of the overt and hateful homophobia that you tend to see portrayed in the media. In fact, many of these "unsophisticated" people are living lives that are in key ways resistant to many of the social codes that dominate our society, which is part of the problem they face. So again, I think it's more complex than a dichotomy between élites and unsophisticates.

Interesting analysis sportinlife and I agree in terms of the different ideologies among the classes of groups. That is absolutely true regarding the views of homosexuality among blue collar blacks and the more educated, upscale blacks. My family is a part of the latter class I just mentioned and while there are a few in my family whose closeness to me changed when I came out...no one was disrespectful to me when I came out, my boyfriend and I get invites to all family functions, and with some of my female relatives it made me even closer to them (yes, fantomas most black women I have come across love gay men).

So I mean I try not to generalize but there are always exceptions to the rule. I mean you'd literally have to write a book to break down the diversity within the black community and how each of those diverse groups would respond to homosexuality. You'd have to break it down by gender, class, geographic location, religious background, occupation, family history, etc, etc, etc. But there is no prominent black leader who is respected by the majority of the black population who is an outspoken gay rights activist. I have been blessed with the opportunity to travel all over the country and abroad and interact with my people from every class and so I think I have a pretty good sampling pool to base my opinions on.

Its also more socially unacceptable to be a gay basher. Sure you have people who disagree strongly with homosexuality but they voice their opinions through demonstrations and of the such. Sort of like the treatment of blacks nowadays. There aren't as many overt displays of racism the way there was in the 50s and 60s where the 'n' word was dropped like it was nothing and lynchings were something that was just something that was a part of the culture. Well...the same for homosexuals. So progress has been made in terms of less hate crimes and more social acceptance, but again, the institutional racism and homophobia in our top organizations that run this country is what makes the struggle so difficult.

During the recent observance of World Aids Day, Democratic congresswoman Maxine Waters talked about the black church and its historical role in its opposition toward homosexuality and its influence on the black community. The influence that the black church has on the general mindset of the black community regarding homosexuality further adds to the difficult nature of being a black celebrity deciding whether or not to come out or stay in the closet. Its a complicated topic thats for sure, but I don't see black NBA, NFL, MLB players coming out publicly in the near future. Hell I don't see white ones doing it either but I'd guess one of those would before a brotha does.

I assume the message board software can be programmed to edit objectionable words, and that it's separate from whatever it is that places ads on each webpage.

The human animal is very complicated. And any generalization is going to run up against that complexity pretty quickly.

But genetics is advancing at a dizzying rate. And we are finding out a lot more than we ever knew - or perhaps want to know - about ourselves in the bargain.

What is becoming more apparent is that there is a genetic component to same-sex attraction just as there is to every other aspect of human nature and behavior.

As long as homosexuality is considered undesirable and a detriment to continued human existence and success, no group will want to be associated with it, especially minority groups in which individuals feel they already have enough problems beyond those pertinent to the human experience in general.

As long as African-Americans numerically dominate a sport and perceive that they are still treated as second class citizens as a group, I doubt we will see an openly gay active black male athlete in any major team sport.

I hope I will be surprised. And there is reason to believe that one will realize his ethnicity is an advantage rather than a hindrance. After all there has been many a social and political pioneer in the black community.

Not to interrupt your very intelligent posts, but... you will have to get in line for Mr. Booker. Behind me. I've had my eye on him for a loooooooooong time.



And, I think he wants to continue being mayor of Newark, so I really don't see him coming out. I don't think it would go over very well there, and he's already had plenty of serious threats against him for his policing policies by the various gangs in Newark. He doesn't need that on top of it... right now his life is really at risk, and he must be driving his security detail nuts trying to stay ahead of everything.



Sorry to hijack the thread, back to your discussion...

How dare you put Cory's ish out there like that! Besides, weren't Cory and Gayle (Oprah's "best friend") supposededly talking? Or am I confusing beards? ...

Does Booker look a lot like Richard Jefferson or am I too confused?

Cory Booker, Richard Jefferson, DC's hot new mayor Adrian Fenty...talk about eye candy!

Couldn't resist throwing this bit of gasoline into the flame: This funny blog about whiteboyhustle cracked me up.

But the montage at the top contains sexy shot of two black players kissing a white player in one of the cutest oreo cookies I've seen. Pretty obvious who they are.

Okay, back to Gay Brothers.