That makes two of us, Jamie!

Yeah, WNBA is inferior but high school sports (which get a full page at least once a week in most urban dailies) rock!

I am encouraged by a few comments posted in the past day. The fact is the original CNNSI story WAS sexist and lesbian-baiting. Poor straight guy threatened by a bunch of lumberjack lesbians? Give me a break! Yet as has been noted, some here are so threatened by the WNBA that they willingly join in. Lesbians have always run full speed to defend gay men when they are charged with being child molesters, spreaders of disease and all the other garbage. We run to defend gay men who are victims of homophobic violence and baiting by jerks like Todd Jones and Reggie White. But when lesbians are vilified, too many gay men run to join in.

It is absolutely true as has been noted that discussion of other so-called "minor sports" (they are not minor to the people who spend their lives playing them) does not produce such vitriol. Philly Fan and others just ignore those threads. There is no reason for this rage EXCEPT that the WNBA is played by women. Women who, in some cases, also commit the unpardonable sin of not being "babe" enough (exactly what was said about Martina Navratilova).

I did not watch Bush last night. I was in fact watching an exciting WNBA game (and the A's during half time). If someone else wants to watch him that's their business. I get a lot more Bush shoved down my throat than WNBA, that's for damn sure.

Too many men want to take the LBT from GLBT.

Wow are there some typical male ass****s on Outsports.
I am sorry you queens feel threatened by real queens.

"I get a lot more Bush shoved down my throat than WNBA, that's for damn sure."



[ September 16, 2005, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Erik G ]

Geez, makes it sounds like poor, defenseless ESPN is being forced at gunpoint to show WNBA games. It's called a "business decision," one networks make for various reasons with all of their shows.

I thought it was a condition that ESPN also has to take the WNBA as part of showing NBA games??

I dont watch too much tv so I dont see very many of these commercials. I do see the NBA promoting a lot of the WNBA, the Storm and the Sonics are both owned by Starbucks and I know the Storm are most likely not making money. I dont care to watch women's basketball, but I think it's a good thing for girls to have role models like these, and if lesbians enjoy it great, they are the only pro sports franchise Ive seen advertising in the SGN or any Gay newspaper. I used to work with the public for a few years all different types of people, and I was really kinda shocked to hear how many people really were interested in women's basketball, not just lesbians. People like alternatives, without the big ticket prices, and everything else people bitch about the NBA players and other Pro Sports, and if they enjoy this great. I'll always stick to the Sonics though.

The original story was ESPN Page 2 article by Bill Simmons, and wasn't sexist or lesbian-baiting.

When did not liking the WNBA make you anti-woman, anti-lesbian? Does not liking the NBA make you anti-male?

Wow, take a few hours off and the thread is more about hostility towards people that have the right to voice their opinion about the WNBA than it is a logical argument in favor of the “sport”??? I guess I’ll call it a sport... maybe activity??

Here’s what I learned about myself from all you WNBA lovers: I hate women athletes. I hate lesbians. I am sexist. I shouldn’t post on a subject if it doesn’t interest me. Thanks for letting me know folks. Anything else you care to tell me, mind readers? Will I win the Powerball this weekend? Get laid by the 22 year old blonde hottie? Should I only have opinions on things I like?

Talk about judgmental. Hypocrites. You don’t like your “sport” criticized and the supposed vitriol us critics spew, and then you spew the same vitriol against the critics. How convenient. How pathetic of you LGBT, WNBA traildeBlazers.

I root for Annika Sorenstam, the Williams sisters and watch Ellen Degeneres. Am I still a hater? There goes your flimsy argument.

Let me clarify it folks, so you will get it: I hate the WNBA because of YOU . Not the league, not the players, because of YOU . The Ms. de Blazers of this world who are hell bent on shoving this sewage on to the American public. You people (PC Police) that expel more energy trying to justify the game and its existence than the energy that is expelled on the court. You people keep trying to legitimize this sham of a spectacle by posting in threads like this. Does your sport gain more credibility the more you bash its critics? Maybe if you listened to the critics you could improve the product. Nope, not your style. . And your thinly veiled effort to try and to turn this into a gay hatin’, woman hatin’ issue doesn’t change the fact that this product is a piece of crap.

The game is being force fed to the masses (who overwhelmingly hate it).
The players who participate lack basic fundamentals. Poor shot selection, out of control play, turnovers, missed lay-ups, lack of athleticism.

Poor Product. Period.

Ms. de Blazer, your hypocritical, sanctimonious bullying does more to hurt the LGBT movement than anything anyone else has said and will ever say on this board. Typical of someone who doesn’t get their way, you try to force it on others. The real world doesn’t work that way, honey. And of all the people on this board, you are by far the most sexist person who posts here. You don’t got game.

Gosh, coyoteugly. I'm weeping.

CU no one is impressed you have a wee-wee.

Granted that gives you more athletic ability, however no one is impressed.

Oh yeah and I can answer the question about the 22 yo...

Except for the lack of athleticism comment, that would be my description of the NBA, except for a couple of teams.

The problem with the WNBA is this.

I saw the end of last night's game. It ended in OT, yet, it still lacked any element of excitement, at least to me.

Overtime Championship game attendance of 8,444.

Why do you hate men?

I saw SportsCenter last night and they counted down the Tp 10 Plays of the Day. Number 1 was a routine 3 pointer made by one of the gals in the WNBA game. Must have been a really slow day. Or is a shot made in this league so rare (like a hole-in-one in golf or a hail mary pass in football or a between the legs winner in tennis or an inside the park home run in baseball) that it is worthy of the Play of the Day?

It wasn't a routine three -- it was a three that was hit at the buzzer to send Game 2 of the Finals into OT.

Which at Mohegan Sun's arena is a sellout crowd.....

I show the arena holds 10,000, which means it was at 84% capacity for an OT Championship game.

Which is good for an WNBA game, but pretty poor for a top-tier level of sports.

I'd like to think it's a puerile minority. And if you count the number of male posters on both sides of the issue (rather than the number of posts, since the same old tired invective has been repeated ad nauseam by a few of our "deep thinkers"), I think this board would bear my view out.

Name a womens sport that has the long tradition and attendance of the 'Big Four'.

Title IX has only been around a very short time, and lets face it - even today things are not 'Equal'.

Find a local TV station in your area that devotes as much time to the Womens HS or College Varsity teams as they do to the Mens Teams. They are few and far between.

We live in a sexist society. Change comes slowly. Womens sports need encouragement and patience to develop.

Having watched several WNBA games, I gotta tell you that those women are not second rate. They are solid professional players, and yes a few of them could give many NBA players a run for their money; despite the fact that they have not a tenth of the resources or the pool of player candidates.

When we see equal numbers of women at the local blacktop corner pickup game; that is when we will know that equality has arrived in sport.

Until then we need to encourage and nurture womens athletics at every level and stop comparing them to the Mens Three Ring Circus.

R

A few things you guys are missing in this whole discussion:

1. A class on Marketing 101
2. Sense of humor.

Community College can help you with number one, but if you don’t have number 2… well…. I’d encourage at least taking up a follow up Economics course to help in other areas you know nothing about…. Anyway…

Marketing is a fairly easy concept when it comes to the WNBA, know your audience.

A few do’s and don’t do’s during sporting events when putting out ads.

DO:

Have attractive ladies and funny beer commercials (they work)
Promote the newest action film coming out.
Junk food.

Don’t:

Place ads for the lifetime movie of the week.
Tampon commercials

You see it’s fairly easy guys. With just that short background, tell me where the WNBA fits into the marketing scheme? Is the typical sports audience (me, sting, CU) part of your marketing?

Another post stated something about “deep thinking”… you know what.. when I’m watching football. I’m not a deep thinker. I can break down any game just as well as any other football fan (str8 included), but I’m not about to be thinking about the better social welfare/civil rights whatever you folks try to spin the WNBA into. As a sports fan, I want to be entertained. I want to see athletes who do something I cant. I want to see dunks, 70 yard passes, 50 yard kicks… basically, everything I wished I could do.

Pick the worst team in the NBA and ask your buddies if you could beat them in a game. Take the best WNBA team and ask your buddies if you got a shot at beating them. It may hurt for you to understand this, but that is what they talk about. That is why they don’t watch. That is why they don’t want to be marketed to.

I’m not sure how any of you can get through life without having a bit of a sense of humor either. I don’t see any of these guys comments that should be taken as offensive. A little guy was scared of the big butch dykes. As a group, If you cant find an ounce of humor in something this simple, Mo’s will never be accepted. You will turn people off by being constantly offended by every little thing. Wrong fight/Wrong time/ Wrong place.

I’m wondering if someone can do a search. Do the women’s basketball thread get more action when mean ole PF and crew point out the obvious… or when no one cares and no one is watching?

In response to ITJock...

Title IX is flawed and a whole different can of worms. Let's not go into that here.

Men and women do not have the same interest in sports. Note the number of men versus women on this site. Then go to ESPN, note the number of men to women on that site. Then go to CNNSI, do the same analysis. Do I need to continue?

Yes we should foster and nurture women's sports. That is why they should keep it at a "grass roots" level. Trying to compete with the big boys gets you treated as a big boy, which means criticism.

NFL has critics. NBA has critics. NCAAF has critics. NCAABB has critics. PGA has critics.

Why does being a critic of the WNBA automatically make you a woman hater or anti-lesbian.

Like CU, I root for the Williams sisters. I enjoy women's college volleyball. I'm amazed at some women swimmers. I want Michelle Wie to succeed.

I just wish the WNBA would stop trying to be what it's not. It was men's rowing and Bill Simmons wrote about that, I'd post the same thing.

Would everybody here be rushing to their defense? I doubt it.

[ September 16, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: stinger85 ]

I have finally waded through all of the posts. Jay Mohr is a comic and should be treated as such. As far as him being homophobic...it was a joke!
The WNBA is riding on the coat-tails of the NBA, the are a product of them. Each team is owned by a NBA francise owner.
I am a lesbian, and a sports fan...I do plan on buying season tickets to the Comets next yr. I also attend a few Rockets games each season, that is all I can afford. I can get season tickets to the Comets, for almost the same as I spend to attend a Rockets game. But that is to be expected. The NBA has earned that.
I also enjoy women's soccer, College women's hoops and indoor lacrosse. All niche products. The problem as I see it, the WNBA is not NBA jr, and needs not be marketed as such. It is a different game played by a different sex. Women will not be able to dunk unless the rim is lowered, a few can...but they are the exception not the rule.
I am not a women hater by any means. I am a realist. Why can't we lower the rim? It would change the game, giving women the chance to play "above the rim".
Face it...women's sports don't follow the same rules as men's, and they shouldn't. They play less, either times, sets, or distances.
Let's play to our strengths.

Too funny, man. Too funny. I almost choked on my coffee when I read that. Good to keep or inject humor in a discussion. Differences of opinion we may have, but let's not boo Santa Claus.

Let's get rid of the idea that the WNBA is being "shoved down our throats." Doesn't the NFL do the same? Or MLB? Or any other entity? Every network is attempting to shove something down our throats 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, nonstop, just by putting something on the air -- whether it's a movie, sitcom, sporting event or infomercial. If they run commercials to promote it, then they're making an extra effort to do so. That's their job.

Whether the WNBA is a quality product or not is one thing. But don't say they're shoving it down our throats because everything that gets broadcast is being shoved down our throats. The only difference is that the NBA is using its muscle and its money to promote it more than other sports leagues.

Jay Mohr played with our LA flag football group in 2002 and was cool with the gay thing. We let him QB and promptly picked him off twice. A year and half later I saw him at the LA Gay Rodeo and his 2 picks were still bothering him (though I had forgotten about them). It seemed that the fact he was intercepted by gay guys did bug him in some way.

But the NFL, MLB, and NBA have mainstream support which is why they get shoved down our throats. Same reason Britney, Ashlee Simpson, Survivor, gets shoved down our throats.

The WNBA equivalent would be a new sitcom starring Jay Morh being shoved down our throats. He's a B or C list celebrity and should be treated accordingly. Like WNBA.

Shakers limited release "WINTER" in my veins. The sweet honey and raspberry tickles my brain.

Coyote, you have crossed that karma line. I suggest you delete that post and apologize. Did you not just call an admitted bisexual "sexist"?

Philly, give it up. You are using that "humor" excuse. Which means you are fighting a losing battle.

I was out riding my bike today. I was thinking of all the wonderful women that make me want to be straight. All the women I would want to ride with. Do not stress, Coyote and Philly would be soooooo faaaarrr off the back. Their penises would be so shrivelled they could not even f**k each other or masturbate.

Damn that is some good vodka :cool:

True about the networks shoving this stuff down our throats. But networks also have to good sense to cancel shows that get microscopic ratings/attendance like the WNBA does.

Gay, straight, bisexual, trisexual... doesn't matter. She hates men. And I will never apologize for my opinion, nor should anyone else on this board.

Maybe he should've said "bisexist"? :confused:

Not always. Otherwise, explain why "Arrested Development" is still on the air. Now that's a show I consider to be shoved down my throat. Some of the Fox commericals give off the tone of "WE'RE A GREAT SHOW! EMMY LOVES US! CRITICS LOVE US! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHY AREN'T YOU WATCHING?????" You've had two years -- we still don't care! Go away!!!

[ September 16, 2005, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Joe, I think your comments (albeit about something entirely different) pretty much sum up the Phoenix boys' thoughts on the WNBA. Except for the Emmy part.

I think you have just made my point for me - we are living in a very sexist society where women are still taught to play with dolls, that sports are a boys domain, and if you are in the WNBA you must be a dyke.

Even today the disparity between mens and womens interest in athletcs is established fact; but there are many sports were female interest is higher - they just don't happen to be the big 4 sports...

We know from dozens of educational studies that Education is the magic bullet, and organized sports are the magic bullet of Education. Students who participate in sports do better academically, score better on standardized tests, have better self esteem, are far less likely to committ suicide, less likely to experiment with drugs, less likely to get pregnant before they graduate from HS, etc.

We should be encouraging sports and athletics for every single child out there, and we should be encouraging equal budgeting for mens and womens sports at the HS and College levels.

Rob

Great IT, too bad that has NOTHING to do with the WNBA.

They proclaim to be "Professional" level in sports... You are talking about lower level college sports.

[ September 16, 2005, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

Okay, since you aren't catching on, I'll try again.

Go to your local park. How many young boys are playing some type of ball? Go to your local elementary school at recess, which sex is playing some type of sport? Go to Walmart, which gender do you see in the sports section? See a trend? C'mon, you're supposed to be a smart guy.

As for sports being the magic bullet to higher education, try again. There are so many scholarhsips that I wasn't even able to try for simply because I have a penis. Any girl who wants to go to college for math, physics, or chemistry can virtually get her education paid for.

But we're getting a little off topic. If you want to talk about title IX or equality of men and women athletics, I suggest you start a separate thread.

None of us are saying "cancel the WNBA". We're asking that they stop trying to sell it to us. Find your market and sell to them.

Per above:

They proclaim to be "Professional" level in sports... You are talking about lower level college sports.

No... I am saying that seeing a positive female role model in professional sports may encourage more young women to play sports. In the same way that seeing a positive gay role model might encourage other young gays that it's ok to be themselves. I am talking about encouragement and role models at ALL LEVELS.

Go to your local park. How many young boys are playing some type of ball? Go to your local elementary school at recess, which sex is playing some type of sport? Go to Walmart, which gender do you see in the sports section? See a trend? C'mon, you're supposed to be a smart guy.

Why is that do you suppose - could it be that young women don't see many positive female role models in basketball; so they feel that they could never have a chance to do something like that? They give up before they try because 'society' has socialized them into believing that it is not a 'girl thing' to do.

None of us are saying "cancel the WNBA". We're asking that they stop trying to sell it to us. Find your market and sell to them

Tampons are your market? Thats way too much information for my virgin ears thank you...

The WNBA will continue to try to sell to anyone it can get to buy a ad slot - including to traditional sports advertizers who are just starting to see the benefits of niche marketing... say to the gay sports market for example.

Finding a market is simple - CREATING ONE where no one has ever tried before is not - If you don't want to watch - there are a lot of other channels out there. Do you go out to buy a new Toyota just because a Toyota commercial comes on every 20 minutes?

No - I doubt it; let's be honest here, most men who are sports nuts are upset because 'the girls' have DARED (OMG!) to compare themselves to one of the last bastions of exclusive masculinity - Pro Sports. If they succeed in attracting attention, more little girls might actually notice professional women players and decide it is permissable to steal away just a tiny edge of that male dominated world to call their own.

I have a young niece back in GA. She lives in a neighborhood with lots of boys, but no other girls. She has learned to be a great little soccer player in pick up games with her local friends. Frankly she can beat the pants off of any of the boys in her neighborhood.

When she went to sign up for Soccer in school however, she was told she HAD to sign up for the 'Girls Team', she could not sign up for the 'Boys Team'. There is a problem with that - most of the time the boys team is much more athletic - they play better ball - and are usually more skilful than the members of the 'Girls Team'. Why should my niece be forced to play on an inferior team when she is perfectly capable of competing with the boy's?

That is just holding her back for some outmoded middle classs idea of what 'girls should be like' - inferior to boys, unable to keep up with them, and unable to compete with them on a level field. To me that is BS. She should be allowed to compete to her absolute highest potential.

Unfortunately her parents agreed with the school, and had her sign up for the 'Girls Team' - one more lesson from her own parents that she is not as good as a boy.

I pray to god that if she gets an interest in Basketball that there will be a WNBA player she can look up to some day and say - maybe I could do that!

Rob

[ September 17, 2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

Um, actually, that's not true. We find the WNBA annoying, maybe even comical, but not threatening. If what you said above was true, then men would hate all women sports at the Pro Level. I think most of us that are criticizing the WNBA have admitted to liking some forms of professional women's sports.

There was a guy earlier in this thread that said about only 10% of the people that liked men's basketball liked women't basketball. I think that tends to be true. Even on this thread, the people who are fans of the WNBA pretty much hate the NBA and bitch about it too, about how there is too much dunking, it's too flashy, too much trash talk, etc. You don't see us fans of the NBA taking it personal and saying "leave our league alone", or you hate men, etc.

We are criticizing the WNBA because of it's product. They need to stop trying to make fans of the NBA be fans of the WNBA. They piss us off to the point that we hope it fails.

Do what? Play sloppy, uncoordinated, slap-happy basketball? :cool:

I think many men "admitted to liking some forms of professional women's sports." as long as it’s not a sport that is traditionally a 'man's sport'... just look at the sports they have admitted to liking... When it comes to a mens sport, far too many men will hold up a hand and say”For Men only”. It’s a glass ceiling.

If "only 10% of the people that liked men's basketball liked women't [sic] basketball" that is a HUGE demographic for advertisers. Where else can you find a ready made group where 1 in 10 is interested in your product? That’s as big as the gay market. That is a better advert spread than you will get in most media – print, radio, or TV – and a damned sight better odds than internet WWW adverts. NO reputable advert exec is going to ignore that kind of demographic stats.

They piss us off to the point that we hope it fails. My question is why the hell it would piss you off to begin with? It's another sport, like it, don't like it, ignore it.

I ama huge Baseball, Football, and Hockey Fan. I like basketball. The NBA would be a great game if the season were 6 mos shorter IMHO. Big Deal - So I don't start to buy tickets until March. I don't like Auto Racing so I don't but tickets or pay that much attention. It doesn't piss me off that they have Auto Racing. Some people like it. I can not stand watching Golf on TV; it's like watching paint dry to me (even though I enjoy playing - yes I am probably the only gay man in the world who plays golf). Still, that doesn't mean I object to them televising golf for other people who enjoy it.

All I hear from critics of the WNBA are snide comments about them not playing decent ball (untrue - they could certainly whip many college teams, and maybe 1 or 2 NBA as well), or snide comments about a bunch of Lesbians, Dykes, and their 'Lumberjack' admirers.

1 - Thats just trash talk not ligitimate discourse. 2 - Thats just some kind of ego that a woman should keep to themselves and 'the things they are good at' and not to dare to compete in a traditional mens bastion.

It is descrimination, and it's wrong. Worse, it hurts kids who deserve to deserve a chance and a level playing field.

R

[ September 17, 2005, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

But the problem with that 10% is that the WNBS is doing just what I said it was. It's pissing the NBA fan base off. How do I know this? Because I'm one of them. So is PF and CU.

Read the original article again. The WNBA attendance is declining (i.e. more fans are leaving than coming in) and ratings continue to drop. Clearly what they are doing is not working. So, they can either blame their product (women's basketball) or men like me who have had enough and want to end the charade that it's a mainstream sport.

The NFL, MLB, NBA, PGA, Auto Racing, Tennis are all a mainstream sport that support themselves. The smaller niche sports like lacrosse, volleyball, swimming, gymnastics, etc. have all accepted that they are a second-tier level sport and reach out to the market that they succeed in. The WNBA continues to treat itself as a top-tier level sport and employs a market strategy that is failing.

A little test, since you like them so much. The WNBA finals are going on right now. See if you can answer the following without looking up the answers: 1) Which 2 teams are playing? 2) Name 1 player from either team. 3) Who won last year's title?

In a mainstream sport those are easy answers.

But rather than fix their product or change their marketing to improve themselves, it's easier to just point a finger and say men are trying to keep us down, while you sit there and nod in agreement.

When something's not working you can 1) fix it, or 2) blame somebody. Which one is going on here?

I don't come in to this forum to often, you'll have to excuse me for butting in.

First, I'm really quite surprised about the response to this article. Not the badly linked Bill Simmon's article (who I geniunely like actually) but the musings of hack writer, ex-pretty boy Jay Mohr. Was it a bad article? Yeah. Was it worth getting upset over? No.

Stereotypes are created for a reason. Because certain people and crowds have a prevalent behavior. Philly fans are obnoxious (to this day I'll never forgive them for cheering and jeering when Michael Irving went down-and I hate Michael Irving). Yankee fans are bandwagoners, lesbians attend WNBA games and gay men watch tennis to look at Andy Roddick's ass. Is it 100% true? No. Is it easy to say such things? Yeah, and sometimes funny.

Get over it.

What I cannot understand is the pure hostility towards the WNBA in here. Especially on this website. If you don't like something, why the hell are you wasting your time even commenting on it? Why don't you do something more productive with your time? Like, go wash your car or update your fantasy football roster.

Am I a fan of the WNBA? No. But I have a feeling half the people who are talking about the bad play and poor athletic ability of the players in question haven't seen a full game.

The real problem is the latent sexism I see in these posts. People saying, "Let's get on the floor and wipe the floor with them." Most of you are probably out of shape middle-aged men. Just stop it. Stop trying to think that just because you're men, that means that you can compete with these women who devote their whole lives to their sport. Not only is it demeaning, it's just f*cking stupid.

So, here's a simple remedy for you guys that hate the sport so much that you have to comment on it. Change the channel. Or sit through it. But just shut up. If I have to sit through NASCAR, the NBA, WNBA and Hockey highlights while awaiting baseball and football analysis you do to.

[quote]stinger85:
[quote]But the problem with that 10% is that the WNBS is doing just what I said it was.  It's pissing the NBA fan base off.  How do I know this?  Because I'm one of them.  So is PF and CU.
[/quote]Err...so am I. Look, to me the liking both the NBA and the WNBA is the same as liking both football and baseball -- I like them both, but they're clearly DIFFERENT GAMES!!!

[quote] Read the original article again. The WNBA attendance is declining (i.e. more fans are leaving than coming in) and ratings continue to drop. Clearly what they are doing is not working. So, they can either blame their product (women's basketball) or men like me who have had enough and want to end the charade that it's a mainstream sport.[/quote]Umm...they play four months out of the year, and most of their players head to Europe in the offseason. Who's pretending here? What, you don't like that ESPN shows these games? I don't like sitting around watching people play poker. Therefore, I DON'T WATCH IT!! I can do that WITHOUT criticizing the people who play it, or the people who watch it. Why is this so hard to understand??

[quote]  A little test, since you like them so much. The WNBA finals are going on right now. See if you can answer the following without looking up the answers: 1) Which 2 teams are playing? 2) Name 1 player from either team. 3) Who won last year's title?[/quote]Okay, without looking: 1) Connecticut and Sacramento. Series is tied at 1 apiece. Games 3 and 4 to be played in Sacramento. 2) Both teams have players who have played in the NCAA Final Four on their teams: Sacramento with Ticha Penicheiro (Old Dominion) and Kara Lawson (Tennessee); Connecticut with Nykesha Sales (UConn) and Katie Douglas (Purdue). 3) Seattle won the title last year over Connecticut. Sales actually had a chance to win it for Connecticut, but missed a three as time expired.

[quote]  But rather than fix their product or change their marketing to improve themselves, it's easier to just point a finger and say men are trying to keep us down,  while you sit there and nod in agreement.[/quote]Nope, nobody's saying that men are trying to keep women's sports down. We ARE saying, though, that having lesbians in the stands does NOT in and of itself make your product inferior, as some of the comments have suggested.

[quote] When something's not working you can 1) fix it, or 2) blame somebody.  Which one is going on here? [/quote]The new WNBA Commissioner worked with the PGA tour for years, and is currently presenting new ideas to help improve the league.

Okay?? Sheesh.