Interesting article found here.

How much longer will the WNBA ride the coattails of the NBA?

This is like shooting fish in bucket of water.

I do think that women's basketball needs to accept its second-tier status, at least for now. Women's basketball IS inferior to men's. But I don't think this is necessarily a permanent condition. If you watch footage of men's basketball from, say, 1940 or so, it'll look a lot like women's basketball now. Guys weren't doing in-your-face jams the day after that guy nailed a couple of peach baskets up at the YMCA. Men's professional basketball has had many years to evolve. People still came to watch men's basketball before slam dunking and lucrative shoe contracts became the norm.

Women's basketball hasn't had that history. And until recently, there was no incentive for women to choose to play basketball in earnest after college. Now there is - kinda. If by playing in front of 5,000 fans and making a cool $15,000 a year is your idea of "incentive". But at least there's somewhere to go after college now. My feeling is that, had a companion women's league evolved along with the NBA, they'd be somewhat comparible now.

Do I watch women's basketball? Yes. More often than men's, actually. Is it "as good as men's"? No, of course not, but why would people bitch about that? That's like people who bitch at baseball games that it's not "as exciting as football"...or, a bit closer to home, people who complain that outdoor lacrosse isn't "as exciting as indoor". But people still watch these "inferior" sports. It's a similar but different beast, as far as I'm concerned.

I like women's basketball. I like watching the athletes compete, I see some great plays, and I like meeting the players afterwards. No, I don't go "Wow - did you see that?!" as often as one would do at a men's game, but that's not why I'm there.

LXN

I like to think of women's sports as DIFFERENT from men's, not as "inferior." The NBA brand of basketball doesn't appeal to me: too much trash talk, too many dunks, too much testosterone.

Who says that women athletes have to meet the standards of attractiveness of ESPN.com's Bill Simmons? He's no prize! http://www.newmoanyeah.com/images/2003/oth...ill_simmons.jpg I wonder if he's ever seen Becky Hammon?

By the way, Lexington, the lowest-paid rookies in the WNBA made $31,200 this season (not $15,000).

In any case, the Indiana Fever @ Connecticut Sun game will be webcast free, starting at 11 a.m. Check it out! http://www.wnba.com/playoffs2005/index.html

Plenty of sushi to go around?

I think excempt for billiards, bowling, archery, shooting, curling and equestrian, you cannot even consider comparing men's and women's sports.

But if athletes can maximize and excel in their sport- you have to respect that...

>>>I think excempt for...

And, at the very least, swimming. And perhaps spelling. wink

But why compare them at all? I went to a (men's) high school basketball game awhile back. Plenty of people in the stands, and not one saying that this wasn't "real" basketball.

LXN

[ September 10, 2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Lexington ]

Perhaps that HS (mens) team could have added a little bit of facination to a WNBA game, by beating them.

I'd watch that!

What Bill is saying is this...

Leave us alone, we dont care, no one cares.

Why do we have to have 10,000 ads during the finals for "We got next" or "we turn the ball over"? LEAVE US ALONE, WE DON'T CARE.

Then again what's wrong with pointing out the truth of why guys watch chic sports... Short pants.

its a niche sport, like pro lacrosse, pro soccer, minor league baseball....etc. etc.

It has its fans and should be treated as such by the media. It will never reach the mainstream status that David Stern wants it to attain.

Anyone who thinks otherwise should flash back to the mid 70's when Pele came to America to help make soccer a big time sport in this country....30 years later and still waiting, and if he couldn't do it no one can. Why Stern believes he can do the same with the WNBA is beyond me.

Yet you have never met a WNBA thread you didn't stop by to shit on. Why do you even bother?

I myself enjoying watching some WNBA games depending on what teams, players and coaches are involved. And I love College WBB...so shoot me.

If your going to be demeaning, at least spell it right - "chick sports". Unless you're implying it's a hipster thing. Since I've gone to several games, I guess either I'm not as gay as I thought, or else it's just my liberalism running amock again.

"Aw, that's cute. Look at them girls - they think they're people."

LXN

[ September 12, 2005, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Lexington ]

Sports guy hit it on the head, as usual.

If the WNBA can make it on their own, they should. Instead, they get their free money from the NBA.

Then they try to promote the league to people who dont care, as if to say... YOU MUST WATCH. WE ARE HERE, LET US ROAR...

Based on the people in the seats and actually watching.. it's more like a meow...

Maybe the NBA is promoting the sport of basketball, not the WNBA in particular. If they can build more of a female fan base, at some point in the future they'll want to see a higher quality of play, and start going to NBA games -- and not necessarily with their husbands/boyfriends. If the WNBA isn't making money, eventually the NBA will cut off the support.

I think we can agree, to a point, on that. As I stated, I think the WNBA needs to simply be comfortable being a "second-tier" sport, and let its fanbase grow naturally. I'm all for "getting the word out", but after a point, that job is done. If you can't get more than 8000 per game, you're gonna need to lower your sights. Most investors and sponsors aren't going to want to hear that - they want their payoff yesterday, thanks - but that won't change what is.

LXN

The Bill Simmons article is one thing -- the following one is truly offensive in its not-so-subtle lesbian bashing. Does anyone know how to contact SI to complain?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writ...orts/index.html

[ September 14, 2005, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Larry@LA ]

Here is the problem with the WNBA, you can't say anything because you will either be a homophobe or a woman hater.

First of all, This guy is a comedian. He writes for SI with humor. What's wrong with saying a bunch of bull dykes go to WNBA games? They do.

That is no different than calling raider fans thugs.

NBA players thugs... or using the word bling with them...

Really when you think about it, who wouldnt be scared of 10 bull dyke lebos WNBA fans? I've worn flip flops when a bunch of them are around and my feet still hurt.

[ September 14, 2005, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

I had to dig for it a bit, but I found an e-mail address to e-mail the editor: letters@si.timeinc.com

If you can pass a message on to Jay Mohr, congratulate him on the "success" of "King's Ransom." wink

Thanks JIP -- I eventually found that address too.
Didn't even know who this Jaywhore guy was, but I don't think I'll be seeing any of his movies now that I do.

Again, I think the WNBA is bringing ridicule down onto themselves by insisting on "first-tier" status. I've waded through more of these "nobody cares" articles than I care to admit, for every single second-tier sport. "Who the hell wants to sit through a professional lacrosse game?" "In there anything more boring than professional soccer?" "Sure cure for insomnia: arena football." It seems whenever a sportswriter (or a celebrity dabbling in sportswriting) has nothing to write about, he'll head to a second-tier sport, write about it ("Professional soccer! Get it?"), and conclude that it's an utter waste of time because...well, I don't know why. I've ended up going to each of these sports, and enjoyed myself at all of them. I don't really have plans to see arena football again - it wasn't really my thing - but I wouldn't bash the sport in print under the guise of "humorous sports reporting". That's lazy journalism at its worst (OK, writing a column about not having anything to write about is lazy journalism at its worst - but this is a close second).

This guy was technically correct that "nobody" cares about the WNBA - or, ot put it more correctly, a lot fewer people care about the WNBA finals than care about the NBA or other top-tier sports. At least he did mention that there were people there who DID care about the sport - his wickedly-incisive comment about "girls and lumberjacks". But it's the "girls" that makes me think good things. That these girls remain fans, and hopefully some will go home, practice like hell, and help push the boundaries of the game when they join a team.

And why did you wear flip-flops to a game? Didn't your pumps go with your outfit?

LXN

Anyone who does not like the WNBA does not have to watch it. Simple.
I don't like movies myself, but it would not occur to me to prevent others from seeing them.
I thought last night's game was exciting, not decided until under half a minute with Sacramento pulling off the upset. I'd LOVE for the Monarchs to win the title after the Kings kept coming up short!

Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit?

Not simple...

I like to watch SportsCenter and ESPN News and don't want to be subjected to seeing these lowlights on the television. The constant media bombardment and commercials trying to lure the everyday sports fan (who knows better) into watching this crap. Also, what programming could fill these slots taken up by the WNBA... an MLB baseball game for example. Simply choosing not to watch is pointless and a lazy tired excuse to justify it.

Like all sports teams, the NBA is run by businessmen and women. Eventually they will realize that subsidizing this sport is a financial drain. They'll pull the plug. Until then, we have to listen to TV try to convince us this is legitimate.

You watch SportsCenter but don't want to see 1 1/2 minutes of WNBA? Do you like EVERY other sport covered? Hockey? Football? NASCAR? Tennis? Poker? Spelling Bees?
If you watch the news, does EVERY story interest you?
I would be very surprised if there is anyone who watches SportsCenter who is interested in everything they cover. That's when you go take a leak or let the cat in.

SportsCenter doesn't cover poker except for the one big tournament of the year, same for the spelling bee, and "yes" I watch both - because talent is involved in both - as opposed to the WNBA.

The WNBA's biggest problem is that anone who's every played anytype of pickup or organized basketball... looks at them playing and says... damn, we could beat them.

So it's like going down to the local gym and seeing a pickup game, but with more turnovers and paying to see it.

So how do you explain the Royals?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Maybe we can have the Royals play the WNBA champ in a basketball game and see who wins?

I'd watch that.

Sports Guy Mailbag to improve the game:

Q: I read some of the responses to your WNBA column (which I thought was fantastic) and thought, "What would make me attend a game?" Then it hit me. What if at halftime they did a drawing and any random fan had the opportunity to come down and play in the second half? Section 215, Row G Seat 9 ... C'MON DOWN!!!! I might have to buy season tickets.
-- Tim, Seattle


SG: Now we're talking! What would be better than a WNBA game filled with the usual crowd of 8,000 people, only with another 3,500 frustrated athletes hoping to get called out on the court so they could light up Sue Bird or Sheryl Swoopes. I also think they should make a rule that, during the first five minutes of the second half, all the players get to be on the floor at once -- kinda like what happens at halftime of an NBA game when two teams of third graders are playing 10 on 10, making it even more amazing when somebody goes coast-to-coast and jukes like 10 defenders just to get a shot off (since when does the crowd not respond to the obligatory 10-on-10 game?). The more the merrier, I say.

[ September 15, 2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

Wow! After reading through this WNBA thread, I'm blown away by the anti-woman, anti-lesbian tone of so many responses. This article seems to have stirred up a lot of shit for you guys. How can we build a lesbian and gay sports movement when you guys show so little respect for your sisters?

The problem with the argument of "I don't like football but I'm forced to see their ads" or "I don't like movies, but I'm bombarded by their trailers", etc. is that GENERAL PUBLIC likes Football and Movies. It's appealing to a MASS audience.

The WNBA does not have a mass audience and never will. Trying to force feed people is pissing them off.

I second this and am also saddened. It's curious why people who aren't interested in the WNBA simply don't ignore it, and instead seem to enjoy heaping scorn upon it.

No one forces you to watch or buy a ticket or any merchandise, so why the hostility? And if you feel "forced" to watch a commercial, then boo-hoo; there are tons of commercials that I don't feel like watching. I think sadly says much more about the critics than it does about the WNBA.

The WNBA has something to do with “The Sports Movement”???? WHAT???? If that is the case, leave me out of it.

Have any of you ever read Jay Mohr before that article? He is the poor mans SportsGuy. He made a joke about manly woman, then made fun of the thugs who go to Raider games. To be offended by that sort of comment is crossing the line of being too touchy. I’d hope anyone offended by this, never groups any fan base (eagles) as all being drunk fat guys from south jersey/south philly. Then again, I’ve been to one WNBA game and I agree with Mohr. I’ve also taken a few hips by them and noticed many of them never say excuse me before they knock you 15 feet from where you are standing (tell me this hasn’t happened to you?) It’s funny because you know ½ of them wont even bother to say I’m sorry (again, how times has this happened to you?). This does not mean you hate women, it can mean you have a bit of sense of humor.

What the WNBA haters are saying is that we are sick of the WNBA being forced upon us and not taking its rightful place with low-level sports. The ones we rarely have to hear about unless it’s a 2 second spot and then fades away.

A group of us were watching a football game the other week and they had the promo-ad for the new “woman becomes president” series. First time I saw it I said:

That’s kind of funky, If I catch it… might be fun to see how they set it up.

Third time I saw the ad:

I asked myself, didn’t we just see this?

Fifth time I saw it:

Hey guys how many times do we see this?

15th time they ran it during the game…

I hope that stupid bitch dies and they have to have the 3rd in line be president.

Does that now mean that you hate women? No, you are sick of the damn show, and it didn’t even start yet.

If you take that to the level of WNBA and you are watching the train wreck so you say to your buddy…

Hey Sting, CU… let’s grab MDPHL and Phillyrunner and beat the PHX WNBA team.

Everyone laughs, but they think to themselves… With a little practice, we probably have them. THAT is the problem with the WNBA. Plus, they get overexposed.

The choice of words could certainly be better, and some people would see it as woman hating.

True story....back about 15 years ago, a family member of mine was a big stud hs football player, he attended his hs sports banquet where the guest speaker was Nancy Lieberman.

Being the big,bad football players that he and his teammates were...during some down time they decided to take Leiberman on in game of horse.

Sorry PhillyFan, but it was no contest....Leiberman took them down with ease, in her high heels no less.

Quite frankly, the idea that me, you, and any group of athletic hoops playing guys could take on a WNBA club is absolutely ludicrous.

However I do question the league's prominent presence on national TV. I sometimes wonder if the NBA clubs have these teams on the side to make a little on the side, it's not like the WNBA players make NBA type salaries.

1. Horse is not a real basketball game.

2. The WNBS is marketing to the wrong crowd. Fans of the NBA don't like th WNBA. Somebody pointed that out above. It's like showing a commercial for Coco Puffs cereal during MNF. While some of the audience may still eat it, the majority of fans would rather see the Budweiser commercial.

3. I don't see what is anti-woman or anti-lesbian about this. Market to the wrong crowd and you go out of business. I think almost everybody on here who has said they like the WNBA hates the NBA. Is that anti-male?

I don't think anyone was referring to the marketing here. Just the tone of some of the postings.

What's that saying about "pick your battles..?" Jay Mohr is a comedian who wrote a silly little column about going to a bb game attended primarily by butch dykes. What's the big deal? And if people, regardless of their race/color/creed/sexual orientation/choice of logger's boots, want to go watch, or play, or admire the flannel, whatever...I'm sure he got plenty of attitude from some of the "ladies" who're just passing on all the attitude they've gotten in so many "straight" situations. Action creates reaction and on and on and on goes the often tedious course of humanity.

[ September 15, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Bryan ]

But why does this sport, out of all others, have certain men bent out of shape that they have a need to attack it? There are many "minor" sports out there, but the WNBA seems to hit these guys' hot button for some reason I can't understand.

PhillyFan, weren't you the one who got bent out of shape when Cyd make disparaging comments about Philly sports fans in a recent article?

It does us no good to berate our sisters, especially knowing full well that the same kind of commentary is going to come our way from antagonistic types when the Outgames and Gay Games come around next year.

And while I love Simmons's columns, where he and Mohr both fall painfully, painfully short is in their failure to look at one major sociological reason the WNBA isn't up to the level that it could be: Girls are steered away from sports at a horribly early age; those who take an interest immediately get the "dyke" label and are very likely to put the sporting equipment away for good in the name of saving reputation. The only people who stick with it are the ones who don't care what other people think -- in other words, the ones who could give a shit if Simmons and Mohr think they looks as hot as Kournikova and Finch.

I'm really disappointed in the smugness of the people who have posted on this thread. That the WNBA has proven to be a bad business model is clear -- but these responses have been about everything but the business. They'll need to adapt to a more sensible economy of scale -- but they'll also need folks like us to assert their liberty as we assert our own.

Wow, that's the same thinking our anti-gay "friends" use for us Mo's. Just stay in the closet.

BTW, I catch NBA games as well. I like competition. It's two DIFFERENT games. Why the vitriol? Some of you act like you've been forcefully sodomized by every WNBA player past and present. Geez.

Look, I'm not into NASCAR so I zone out during their commercials, don't watch it on TV and don't attend it in person, but I wouldn't take the opportunity to shit on this "sport" at every opportunity and I damn sure wouldn't bother posting about it on a discussion board. And to even pretend you are interested or better yet, worried about the WNBA business practices and their bottom line is down right comical.

Err...I don't hear anybody telling anybody that they MUST do anything. You don't like it? Change the channel. Don't go to their games. Don't spend your money to support this league. Simple enough? I went to a Miami Sol game a few years back when they were still around. Had a good time. Wouldn't buy season tickets or anything, but still had a good time.

As far as promoting ANYTHING to people, it's called MARKETING. Not everybody is going to want the product that is being marketed at every moment. And just because you don't like women's basketball, I don't necessarily think that you're anti-woman. I DO, however, have to wonder about people who incessantly stalk women's sports threads (when they claim to hate most women's sports) and simply spew invective.

And I don't recall anybody being accused of misogyny (although the word is CHICK, not chic. Chic means to be in style or in fashion. Please learn some grammar).

I wonder the same thing; calling Dr. Freud!

Because I haven't seen an ad promoting NFL Europe, indoor lacrosse, minor-league hockey, bowling, celebrity poker and every other niche sport that appeals to a specific audience.

The WNBA doesn't need to go away. It just needs to stop treating itself like a top-level sport, because it's not.

I don't see how that is vitriol, woman-hating, or an attack on lesbians.

I wonder about posters who rarely post in any sports threads, and only show up when a certain poster's name appears to take the opposite view.

Why can't the WNBA build their sport like Arena Football? They didnt need a bankroll from the NFL.

Instead we are left to have it shoved down our throats while trying to watch actual basketball games.

That is Simon's point, not that he hates women, he's just sick (as are the rest of sports fans) of having it shoved down our throats while trying to enjoy actual basketball.

[ September 15, 2005, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

I'm fairly sure there have been comments on the board about NASCAR not being a sport -- hey, all they do is drive around in circles! But NASCAR has a larger fan base, more sponsorship money, etc.

If the WNBA is going to promote itself as a major league, then there's going to be commentary about it. That's the way of the world. Bill Simmons and Jay Mohr aren't writing about indoor lacrosse or indoor soccer because they have virtually no national profile -- a handful of games may find themselves on major network or cable and that's it. The WNBA is a different story because of their network broadcast contracts, which come through the NBA -- because if it weren't for the NBA's support there wouldn't be nearly as much coverage.

So there's going to be commentary. And if it's mostly negative (and the poor attendance certainly qualifies as one form of negative commentary), then the WNBA needs to improve itself to win over its detractors. And I hope it does, for the sake of the girls who want to grow up and play sports. Unfortunately, it's going to take a long time for the quality of play to improve.

Ditto - that's why I'm staying out of this thread - more toxic than a New Orleans neighborhood. :mad:

Agree with most of the posts here. In terms of the "gay angle" on this topic, let's be clear that most WNBA players are heterosexual. I just think that needs some clarification, or else we enhance a stereotype. I know you all know this but I feel compelled to explicitly say it: Not all big, athletic women who can make a jump shot are gay....As for WNBA fans, maybe someone else out there can deconstruct the stereotype Mohr seems to paint of them in his piece.

Some history for Lil' Philly. An independent women's basketball league was started in the mid-90s (the ABL). However, the NBA basically wanted to own the sport of basketball and quickly started up their own competing women's league (WNBA). The market could not support 2 pro women's leagues, so the WNBA (with NBA money and teams tied to NBA men's teams) survived while the ABL folded after less than 3 years. So women's basketball tried to build a market on its own, but was taken over by the NBA--thats why its "bankrolled" as you claim.

Also, the NBA struggled as a league from its founding in the mid-40s until the late-60s when the competing ABA folded/merged with it. So those claiming failure for the WNBA after 10 years of existance should remember it took the NBA about 25 years to really gain its top tier sports status.

[ September 16, 2005, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: HotlantaTarheel ]

True enough, HT. But what about the NWBL? This league starts play in late December and plays through the start of April. This creates a complementary league to the WNBA - players can actually play in both leagues. I think this was a wise move.

The main issue seems to be whether the WNBA being promoted "beyond its station", if you will. I don't see PF or others screaming that the IWFL is a pointless exercise, for instance.
Should ESPN be showing a game on TV if a different sport would get better ratings? Will the insistence that the WNBA is a "first-tier" sport actually do more harm than good? Should the WNBA be more like the NWBL, and retain a grassroots approach? Even if that would mean the WNBA would have less money coming in, and their players would no longer be getting anywhere near a living wage?

It seems like these questions tend to polarize people into name-calling, though, as indignant liberals go head-to-head with boorish dick-wavers. Let me know how it turns out, K?

LXN

I've been to two WNBA games - in LA and New York. Neither was attended "primarily" by butch dykes. In fact, I'd say a small portion (maybe 10-15%) were people who were gay or lesbian. The other 85-90% were straight couples and parents with kids. That it is "primarily" butch dykes is just flat out wrong.

[ September 16, 2005, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Cyd at Outsports ]

I'm not a basketball fan at all. Be it NBA or WNBA or NCAA, I find the sport tedious. But I think the fact that these female athletes are playing basketball - probably the most macho sport outside of football - has a lot to do with the severity of the reaction. This type of attitude isn't limited to sports. Women have to work twice as hard for half the respect that men get doing almost any job - particulary the ones that aren't viewed as traditionally feminine, like say nursing or teaching - and certainly professional athletics qualifies for the most macho of arenas.

I don't think the WBNA is a failure so much as it's fledging. It sounds to me like the fault for that lies on both sides, the WNBA marketing itself improperly and spectators who won't give it a chance on its own merits. But I think the burden of proof is on the WNBA and it's up to them to ride it out, not for people to watch if they don't find it interesting just for the sake of fairness.

Tennis is the sport I know and certainly women's tennis is the most successful professional sport for female athletes, but when Billie Jean King started the WTA, they were ridiculed as a sideshow in much the same way. But female tennis players kept up a united front and developed their own strong product. Gaining and keeping such respect remains an ongoing process that is - like it or not - always going to be a big part of any professional female sport. Every couple of years the hot topic in tennis becomes whether or not the best women can compete with the men. When Venus and Serena Williams first took control of the WTA tour, there was alot of back and forth from both sides about whether or not they could hack it with the men. (It usually happens when women's tennis starts to upstage men's tennis on the popularity front.) The Williams sisters were young and agreed to play exhibition matches against 100th-ranked Karsten Braasch at the time ... a notoriously out of shape chain-smoker ... and they lost those matches. The cries of female tennis players being inferior rang out once again. Even now, as popular as women's tennis is, the women do not get equal prize money in two of the four major tennis tournaments each year.

What people don't want to hear applies to the WNBA as well as to the tennis. The plain and simple truth is that female athletes cannot compete with the top male athletes in the same sport. Not in tennis, not in golf, not in basketball. But the plain and simple truth is also that they shouldn't be expected to compete with the men ... women's bodies are built differently. They're upper body strength, in particular, and that is going to affect alot of athletic endeavors. If we can acknowledge that genetics are enough of a factor to have different weight classes in boxing, then we should be able to acknowledge that genetics dictate the ability of athletes in terms of male versus female. And just because female basketball players cannot do what male basketball players do does not diminish from the quality of their skills or competition with one another.

People have an insane need to compare the women's version of a sport with the men's. Men want to confirm that they are better. Women want to prove that they can do anything the boys can do.

Only time will tell how the WNBA fares, and while I think the criticism in unjust, I also feel the need to rebuke such criticism is just as detrimental. If the WBNA can concentrate on developing its players and the quality of its competition, the fanbase will grow, homophobic columns by narrow-minded detractors be damned. If they cannot improve, then the WBNA will die out. And it really doesn't matter what any writer has to say about it then, good or bad. That is the beauty of all sports. You have to put up the results.

I have loved women's tennis from days of old and have enjoyed watching it for the competition between the players. I never really understood when the judgment was so often made that the women's play was inferior, rather than being different or being seen within the context of the competition with each other. The rivaly between Chris and Martina was as good as any in sport, either individual or team, in my opinion.

If someone wants to see only the best players and views other versions of the game as inferior, then it seems the concept would extend to saying that college football or basketball is an inferior product. While the skill level of college players as a whole is far below the skill level of professionals as a whole, the games can be just as exciting (often more so) and competitive. When the sport is compelling within itself, not in contrast to another sport or the same sport played by different people (men instead of women, pros instead of college players), then it can stand on its own merits and should be judged on those, in my opinion.